 All right, let's get started everybody. In our second talk tonight, we're going to get an update on the North Dakota State University Research Program on HASCAPs. And here to share with us the latest results is Kathy Widerhold. Kathy is the fruit project manager at the NDSU Carrington Research Extension Center. She's been, she's, she's the founder of the project. She was there from the beginning, 2006. And she conducts very interesting research in all kinds of fruit crops, testing them for use in gardens and for commercial purposes. She does work on apples and plums and pears and crepes. Aronia, cherries, Juneberries, currants, and one of her favorite berries are HASCAPs. So Kathy, welcome to the forums. Thank you, Tom. I really, I'm glad to be here again. I have talked about HASCAPs before a few years ago, and I just kind of wanted to give everyone an update on what we're working on at the Research Center. So we have all these kinds of fruit and, you know, they've been around for a long time. Is there anything else you can learn new about them? Perhaps. But, I mean, it is good to have these woody crops for the long term and see how they do. Do they, do they survive for 10, 15 years is kind of nice. So I have kind of turned my attention to HASCAP. We have not had great selections in the Northern Plains, and we need some better ones. And so I've been looking at HASCAPs, along with Dr. Thompson from Oregon, just trying to look at hers. I'm going to just give a general overview of the HASCAPs for a little bit in case you haven't heard my talk before. And if there's any more questions, of course, we can talk about things at the end. So HASCAPs in general grow in the Northern Climates. They grow across, well, they do grow across the United States, places like Montana and Minnesota, Wisconsin, probably like Maine and New York State probably too. In Canada, they're kind of on the eastern half of the country. I know they did not find them wild in British Columbia, but most provinces have it. So, so these are wild ones, nobody has ever selected them or improved them or anything. For that, we need to go to the other big continent. For Russia and European, mainly in the Russian area. This is where the main HASCAPs that are sold have come from in years past and years present. Russian plants grow more upright, and I'll show you some pictures of that, but actually what I really want to say is that in Russia, people have been using them for so long that they have made selections. So there's a lot of selections of better varieties, bigger fruit, tastier fruit. In Russia, they actually also select bitter fruit, because then you can put it with your vodka and use it in place of tonic water is what I've been told. So that's kind of funny. So you do sometimes find bitter bitterness in Russian in the Russian type fruit. All right, and then on the far right hand side here, we have this long peninsula of Kamchatka. And there are little islands that once ran down to the northern island of Japan, that's Hokkaido Island. And the Kamchatka plants circled in green, those are they grow kind of low and wide. And they're fuzzy. They're quite fuzzy. And then in Japan, those plants grow very upright. So I don't know how they ever got the different selection between there, but they do grow in kind of two opposite directions. So then in North America, really the first person to do research was Dr. Thompson in Oregon. She's in the Corvallis area. And she was interested in some kind of plants to do something to do in her retirement. And someone had given her a Hascat plant and it didn't do very well. And she wasn't impressed. But then someone gave her a Japanese Hascat plant. And it did really well. The berries were wonderful. So she said, this is the ticket. And Dr. Thompson had gone on somewhere between seven and nine different seed and cutting collection trips for USDA. And she also helped, she helped found the plant repository center that's out in Oregon. And there are several across the country now. So she was very interested in collecting different plants. And in 19, probably 99 or 2000, she made a deal to go to Japan and she collected seeds from eight different places, a couple of growers, and then a couple of research farms, research stations. And she collected seeds and from those eight plants, she has done all her breeding. So it's very interesting to me, all the, all the characteristics you can pull out of these plants. I mean, there's small plants that have berries that are quarter inch, there are large plants that are like eight feet tall and they have huge berries like maybe two grams. So it's very, it's very interesting, the things you can, you know, tease out of the genetics of these of these plants. So, so she started her program in 2000. Then she talked to Dr. Bors in Saskatchewan, and she got him interested in in hascaps and they started breeding in 2004. The Carrington Research Center we just have trials we don't do any breeding yet. I started that in, well we started in 2006 but the hascaps started in 2007, and I got Canadian plants and I got Japanese plants from Dr. Thompson. So we've been growing them ever since. And then I talked to Zach Miller and he's in charge of one of the research farms in Montana. He's in the Bitterroot Valley, pretty much where that purple dot is in Montana there the Bitterroot Valley, the southern part of it. So he has trials there and there's like, I want to say six or seven places around the state that they have trials for different kinds of fruit plants. So, so that's it as far as any research goes. I do know that there is a lady who sells fruit, sells hascaps or honey berries from Arkansas. And Dr. Thompson was always under the impression that she couldn't actually breed any plants there that she just made selections of seedlings, because it's so warm there and she sells the Russian kinds and the Russian kinds don't do well in warm climates. And see if I might talk about that in a little bit here. So what is the name. Is it a honeyberry, is it a hascap. Ah, you know, you can kind of, you can kind of use both terms. The name honeyberry was came from Jim Gilbert. He has one green world nursery in Oregon and Jim travels the world finding different plants to grow. It's really a nice, nice several day effort maybe or whatever to a pleasure perhaps to look at their catalog or or their website and see all the things that we cannot grow in North Dakota, but they can grow well out there, but it's just very interesting. So, the plants he brought over were Russian so in general, people who work with these plants kind of say that honeyberry refers to the Russian types, but honeyberries are very attractive name so it's used for a lot of other. It's used for almost anything. Excuse me, hascaps hascaps are used when the name hascap is used when the plants come from Japan. But the name hascap is very similar to what the Anu people would have called it like hascappa, huscappa, something. I'm not exactly sure. There's a lot of different spellings and phonetic variations on it. But hascap is generally referred to or used when we refer to the Japanese plants. So, I have read a long time ago that actually there's an overarching term you can use for any plant or any any fruit and it's called edible blue honeysuckle because these are honeysuckle plants, and they are edible and they're blue so edible blue honeysuckle kind of would cover all your bases for this. So this is just a quick look at the fruit in the plants that we have. The Russian, the picture on the right hand upper, upper side is a Russian plant. And then below that is actually one of the Kamchatka plants. And one thing to note on that Kamchatka is, it doesn't grow very upright they grow kind of why they're there I said they're fuzzy they have large leaves. The fruit is really hidden inside there. So the Canadian plants that were developed in 2007, they actually are a cross between a small Russian plant so sort of an upright plant, a small Russian plant and this low wide Kamchatka variety. They have much of a chance of being a tall easy to harvest plant, I call them gumdrops because they kind of grow in kind of like a gumdrop kind of a rounded mound. So, yeah, after about five years you can finally get the branches lifted off the ground I prune every year to try to get the lower branches off and everything going upward and outward upward and outward. And still it took about five years before I could finally get them lifted off the ground. And they've kind of stayed that way which is nice but it's a pain. So then and then we have the Japanese variety right so the three kinds. And in the pictures of the fruit. We have Russian ones on the left they're long and skinny. You know they're off, they can all these berries can be different shapes. But in general I would say the Russian berries are kind of long ovals. And then on the right hand side in the center there is a picture of some of the Japanese fruit. It is also kind of oval teardrop shaped could be heart shaped like a cowbell. And they're, they're blocky and more oval than a blocky oval, I guess, they're definitely bigger. But they, again, they come in all sizes they come in all shapes, every, every single kind. So, it is, it's pretty amazing. This is a picture of Dr. Thompson's orchard. And so these plants, these plants, she did not keep plants very long. And as you see here are probably, I would say three to four years old. And then on the kind of in the middle on the left hand side you can see some really small plants I don't know if you can see my cursor but I'm pointing at the small plants. And what happens is she would put plants in for several years, and they should have fruit in their third year. And if they had small fruit or very little amount of fruit you know they were evaluated. And then they probably were evaluated one more year into their fourth year. And if they just aren't doing well out they go they just, they get lifted out thrown in the trash heap, and then new plants from all the new breeding go in. So it's a continuous cycle of renewing your breeder books and your plant books and your pot plot books and it's a way to get a lot of research done. Her plants were planted every two feet apart because she wasn't planning on keeping the plants for very long they weren't going to going to be allowed to get very big. I should say I started going there in 2012 and I've been there almost every year since 2012 to try to collect new plant material. At first I was just helping her and learning, and then I started making choices. So, at first she gave me plants that she selected and then later when I was able to go and actually harvest the fruit and I could see how the fruit clung to the to the plants and then I could make selections that clung better, because here in this picture. This is the reason we're still looking for the perfect plant. Haskeps in general bloom for about 10 to 14 days haskeps and honeyberries they just bloom over a long period, and then they ripen over that two week period. So, at the same time you've got less ripe and more ripe fruit on the plant and the more ripe fruit tends to fall. And for every variety but it happens for a lot. It seems, well I don't have that much experience with all the Russian varieties there's a lot of Russian varieties out there. But the ones we do have two out of the three actually hold their fruit quite well, but actually it's so well they hold it so well that it's almost hard to pick. And the one that doesn't hold well that one falls off pretty easily. But so this is this is what we see in North Dakota. Of course you are guaranteed to get some kind of a wind or rainstorm thunderstorm. This actually happened to be a thunderstorm there's actually water on the leaves of this plant, and you know those gusty winds. So these berries were within like one to two days of being ready to harvest we're just waiting for a little bit more sweetness and they fell I came in the morning and they were all on the ground it's very disappointing and it's very hard to collect data this way actually in the on the next slide we will have a table of of harvest weights but some of those harvest weights are affected by the berries that fell you cannot pick these all up and in a in a production setting you would never pick them off the ground. So, yeah that that's our big problem what we're trying to overcome by looking at these different varieties. Alright here is this table I promised you. And what I have done I call it normalizing I know that's not the right statistical word but it kind of normalize this because we got all these plants in different years. So let's look back through the data, and then I have them aligned by the year they started producing fruit and then I have the harvest records for all of that. So this is pounds of fruit per plant. You know, I know that in other places in the country that people can get a lot more production than this in Oregon you would get a lot more production. Our biggest concern is that when we tested the or whatever when we've grown the Canadian plants which are the group in yellow which is borealis tundra indigo jam and indigo treat. We have seen very poor production in these plants and their large plants. I know we did this hascat by back in 2010 1112 somewhere in there. A member of the grape growers bought like 1000 about 1000 plants each year of those three years, and they were dispersed across the state and Montana, and I tried talking to people in like 2012 or 13 and asking them how is your plant doing would you consider it produces enough to be for commercial production. And the answer was no, like eight. I think it was like 10 people out of 12 or actually had 25 respondents so what would it be, it would be like 22 people, 22 people out of 25 all said no they didn't think it'd be okay for commercial production because they weren't getting good production either so I don't know why it's possible that the pollinizing variety is not the correct variety. We always the first two the first two plants on here in green are two Russian varieties Barry blue and blue bell. Those are always advertised as the pollinizing variety for the Russian or excuse me for the Japanese. No, excuse me again. The top two Russians are advertised as pollinizers for the four Canadians just below it. And so they should do well I mean they're recommended by the university and Saskatchewan so we have them, and we should be getting fruit, but we don't are not very much. And I will say that Indigo Jam has been our best producer and that's because Indigo Jam is partly self self pollinating. Because you need two varieties you know just like apples you need two varieties. So, two different varieties. And so Indigo Jam can produce a crop by itself but it should produce a better crop when it is mixed up with some other plants that can grow as well. So, so we have been gravity I have been gravitating to the Japanese varieties. The third group is in blue here, 2008 Japanese Hascap, and we have just gotten more berries from them and I, and again, a lot of berries have fallen so this is the best harvest number I can get but we have lost a lot of berries over the years from these plants. There are four groups here the 2012 Japanese plants is kind of a peachy color. So those we've had the most fruit from it is they've done pretty well I broke them up into three groups they're actually some different amounts of plants in there but I just broke them up. So we've had more more fruit there. And then I do want to draw your attention to the very last line which is a darker pink. So I selected that I selected in 2017. And these were very high in production, the, this is the year three planting which is their very first year of production, and not all of the plants but some of the plants gave us 2.2 to 3.3 pounds of fruit per plant plants that gave 3.3 pounds and I think there were three different plants that gave us two pounds of fruit per plant. So, you know, hopefully in the year four and five and we'll really see how they do is it, you know, a fluke or what. But I think, I think that we'll be getting some better numbers here now. So, and now I want to, I should have, I don't know where I was going to put this. People asked like where can they buy these plants and your handout that I have for you is actually a list of places that you can buy has gaps you know, I can't say like we recommend them but their places I know of and places I have bought plants from. You'll just have to read about them and or ask me questions, and I can help you and decide which plants are for you. So on the bottom here are the four name varieties from Dr. Thompson that are on the market. There is Solo and Kiko. Those are available through Proven Winners and the company who developed them, they actually call them Yes Berries. Oh, and you know what, I forgot. There's like Sugar Mountain Blue, isn't there? And one more. I forgot those. But it's a proven, there's four proven winners and they call them Yes Berries. Why EZ Yes Berries? They found the berries referred to that somewhere. So those are from them and so those should be at your local greenhouses, big box stores just depends on if they buy those plants from from those retailer or the wholesaler. And then the last two are Opus and Kauai, and those are the last plants that Dr. Thompson put out there. And Opus is the plant that she considers to be her very best it is so productive it's so sweet and tasty. The plant is a little soft like it is very fine stems and it will droop down in the under the weight of the fruit. And one that goes with it is Kauai and also a very, very productive plant named after one of her very good friends. So, so those are the Japanese ones that I know about. And then this is part of our research here. This was this picture is the 2017 plants that produce for the first time in 2020. And this is their third season and this is some of the plants where those those weights were taken from where there was 2.2 and 3.3 pounds per plant. Some of those were in this row. So, we have, we and you, if you want to get a crop on your, on your hascaps you will need to net your, your plants because these are the first fruits available and the birds go nuts over them. They, they're so attracted to them. They will land on the net and everything we try to keep the net off of the plants because yeah the birds will pick right through it. They're just crazy for it. And what else can I tell you, oh the number of plants so between 2007 and 2012, the number of selections and we have about three plants per selection. So we had 19 selections. And then from 2007 or 2017 to 19. We had 47 more selections added to the program and then this last number 25 that's the number of plants I have coming. And I'll be planting them this year. Hopefully this year or next spring. So, a lot of plants there's like 91 different selections and we plant two to three plants for each one just to make sure nothing happens to them, and that we can have that available for us. So I want to, I put these pictures up as a possibility of what we could have as a possibility on the left Ashley is opus and on the right is Kawaii. And these are, I mean look at the amount of fruit on these plants it's really amazing. And the best thing you can do is keep pruning your plants and keep getting new growth. These acts hascaps produce the most fruit on the one year wood. You know you'll have the wood that grew last year. And then when the the buds start to come out and the flower the flowers are on those buds that are coming and on those little shoots and so yeah it there's whatever I don't know what I'm going to say. I'm just amazed at how much fruit is on these plants and I'm hoping that we can see that here in Carrington. So my summary is that hascaps a delicious and hearty fruit grows well and pretty much any soil. Don't have to have an acid soil or anything like that. And I can tell you that in Saskatchewan at the research farm that their soil is clay and they they get a good crop of hascaps up there. So it's probably fine. Winemakers really want the fruit. The problem is, we just don't have great varieties for doing this like commercial harvesting even just even a large scale harvesting really concerned about how well the fruit can hang on the plant so even though some people would love to plant it and get going and grow more fruit, I tell them to be cautious because you don't want your whole crop ruined the night before you're ready to pick it. So it's such a pain. So, so yeah it's hard to buy plants in the US you know the Canadian plants are propagated in Canada. And so we just get them from wholesalers here in the US. There's no propagators here. So they end up being a little more expensive and they're the only really great ones. Dr Thompson's Japanese plants are now more available. There's a British Columbia propagator but again, that's Canada but he does have a US arm, and then you'll have to look on your handouts. We also have proven winners and the gardens alive gardens alive runs like themselves and gurneys and is it called spring meadow or something like that. And I don't think that's the right name, but they, they do several different things and so they are they're in charge of opus and kawaii. So there's like, I think there are six for sure available. And then there's a place called Hascap, Oregon, and they sell about six of Dr Thompson selections also. So, so there they are and oh you know and I just found this out that the University of Idaho did work with Hascap a long time ago they got seeds from Dr Thompson, and they've made some selections and there is a grower up there you're going to have to ask me if you want them. I'm not sure if I should recommend them they say that the plants the fruit ripens in like the third week of July. If that's true, it's going to be way too late for fruit flies you know the SWD the spotted winter safflower fruit fly just it can it'll definitely get into them if it can, if they're very late fruit. So, I would like to grow those first before I recommend them to you. So, alright where are we current cultivars for North Dakota worth a try though definitely worth a try in your yard it's not going to be as windy in your yard as it is, you know out in the field. I would definitely try them if you have the opportunity. So, in the end here the Japanese cultivars have been the most productive and those are the ones we're focusing on, we're looking for plants that don't drop their fruit. And we are in general just growing new material from from Dr Thompson's breeding program. So, I hope I have a little time here I just want to, I just have two slides for promise Tom. Maybe it's three but planted those in spring and then. So they grew that whole spring, they grew I let them grow from spring of 2008 to spring of 2009. And then I cut them back to only about two to three inches tall. And then that in 2009, they, they grew and became woody and we'll see this in the next picture to they grew and became woody, and then in 2010, they look like this and they're having they're going to have fruit. So, they definitely they want to grow and cutting something back like this is very good for the plants. So, in, here's this other example. They're all planted in in the fall you can definitely plant has gaps in the fall. I have planted as late as like the 15th of October you know I just got so busy never got implanted. I think these are actually this is the sixth of October. So they're all planted, and they grew and the next spring I just let them do whatever they were going to do I just because I didn't know how well the roots had settled. So they grew for a whole year. And then in 20, let me see so they grew in 2013. And then in the spring of 2014, I cut them back just like I said two to three inches. Every single, every single bud or branch that was above the ground. And then they grew in 2014. And this is how they look in the spring of 2015 on the right hand side. So it's about two feet tall or so and it's ready to go as those are nice dirty canes on there. Anything that was low or small was probably pruned off and just left these nice, these nice canes that were ready to go and fruit. So, so don't be afraid to prune your plants you know the energy for a plant is of a woody plant is mainly in its roots and it stored there over the winter. And then in the spring, if you cut off that old growth, all it has to do it has to put its energy somewhere and it's going to just put its energy into buds that are there and buds that are hiding, and it's going to push up a whole bunch of new growth. And, you know, and if a plant is weak this is another way to strengthen it is you cut it back, and then the energy again is just going to go into these new shoots and they will hopefully be strong and healthy. And this I just wanted this is my last this one is my last slide Tom. I just wanted to show on the very left hand side you can see these crazy shrubs they kind of look like Albert Einstein's hair they're just big and brown and fuzzy. And so that's how these shrubs looked, and then I thought. So how should I cut them back I want to regrow these shrubs they're so thick what should I do. I took several shrubs here in the middle right by this post, just on the, this side of the post there's several shrubs that look really small and terrible. Well I cut those all the way to the ground basically I just left about four inches above the ground and I thought, I don't know we'll just see what happens. I don't really want these shrubs anymore. They did grow back but they took some time they took some time. And right in front of us here on the right hand side, these shrubs I cut back and you can mainly see it in the center there. I cut them back maybe to about a foot or foot and a half. So I took off all the outer stuff and I left these stronger sturdier branches, like scaffold branches main branches, and I left those and so I left no little finger branches on them, they look like sticks. And they have a lot of buds under that bark somewhere, and they produced all these new canes. So I think this is the best way to do like a big rejuvenation pruning. You're a grower of you can't do, you can't prune individual plants every year is it's a lot of work. So I think what the thing to do is is to do a big rejuvenation like maybe every three years or so every four years and, and you could do one row and not the other row. You know just kind of keep it moving along and then you could stagger it and then always have plants that are at the peak of their production. All right, this this is this is the end here some beautiful has kept flowers and I'm ready for questions the plants are just starting to agree now so we'll be having blossoms in a while. Okay Kathy thank you, and we're going to go through these questions rapidly. Okay. Okay, you mentioned a lot about pruning. Is there a best time of the year to do it. The best time to prune is still now when the danger of really cold weather when you're when you're below when you're past the below zero weather. And before the plants start to bud is your best time to prune. Is there a guide that you recommend, like maybe from Saskatchewan or someplace about how to grow has caps. Well, I actually, I would check out the University of the University of Saskatchewan website they probably have the most information. So, we saw a lot of fruits drop on the ground. I don't know if you or Jim Gilbert's ever been to Italy, where they, they say they put one of our questions they put nets under underneath the olive trees to collect the fallen fruits have you ever thought about doing that. Well, that would require a lot of help I think in my situation and so, no, I did try putting like some landscape cloth under them wants to collect them. But you know there is that thing about collecting fruit off the ground it's possible that a mouse once ran on that ground and maybe he pooped, and you're not supposed to collect fruit off the ground so. Yeah, the net suspended in the air might be great. Okay there you go that's your next project. You bring your back with you when you come. I'll do a couple plants for you. How about you irrigate your trials. You know this last year was the first year I've ever irrigated so I think we'll be seeing some better production with the irrigation. Yeah, we don't have water at the orchard but I have a giant 1200 gallon tank, and I've spent a couple years running around with header hoses and I think we've got it under control now so we're going to start irrigating. How about do you recommend mulching your house caps. I really recommend mulching any woody plants. Yes, it'll keep the soil cool the roots cool it'll keep moisture in the ground and keep that pesky grass away grass is so competitive with woody plants so definitely mulch. Where do you buy your netting. I buy my netting. I buy, I buy by the bail it's like 1300 feet and I get it from. Well, MDT and associates in the cities, but it's a whole bail so. Okay, just buy some with your friends with me if you're in the area. Okay. And you mentioned about the spotted winger safflower. Is that a problem with has caps or or not. It's a problem with later has caps, we are selecting Maxine Thompson's friend and I Shinji Kawai he and I we've decided to choose the earliest has caps, the ones that ripen the earliest because the fruit flies do get in the later ones. So, yeah, lots of pruning questions, can you can you prune even when it's really dry like it is out here in the West. Well, I'll say yes. The less the less plant that the roots have to support the better I would say, but you should, if you didn't water last fall you should really consider watering this spring, just some kind of drip irrigation and mulch mulch to keep that moisture in. And you prune them hard. It's pretty hard if you, you know, in general, I remove, kind of like apple pruning, I remove things that point inward, I remove things that grow downward, and if there's just too much if it's just too congested you can just take out something and take out the week stuff So, think about taking out once the plant is four or five years old, start removing one or two of the older, heavier canes because that's going to open the plant up and encourage new growth, and these fruit on newer growth new vigorous growth so definitely prune them every after they're about three or four years old definitely start removing old stuff. I mean, eat a half cat yet to spit out the seeds or do you just eat the whole thing know you just eat the whole thing they're in like a little jelly sack and they're like the size of sesame seeds but flatter smaller and flatter, and I have never. I think I've almost never felt a seed when I've eaten them. They're like blueberries right isn't that like the blueberry for the prairie. Yeah, they have like a sandy seed a really small round seed but like said these are in a little. They're like a tomato seed where they have that little pulp that little viscous sack over them or whatever you know, got flesh around it so they're they're very slippery in your mouth you won't you won't know you have them there. Okay what do you do with the hashtag anyhow you just mix for vodka or wine or yes. We did make liquor out of them by steeping the berries in vodka but wine. We freeze them once once any any fruit is frozen, you can use it. Yeah, in your yogurt you can make crisp with it or something. What else do I do that you can put it in muffins any anything like that. Most I really like them in my yogurt. They're invasive like when their seeds drop. You know, we do not see much of that we once in a while we see a few seedlings start under the plants but we have the wood chips which it really helps they perhaps they needs light to germinate I'm not sure. And I was kind of concerned in the past I've seen, I've seen honeysuckle plants growing, but I think over all this time I've determined that they're not these honeysuckles, they are the Tatarian honeysuckles that are growing in the trees. We have you know the wild shrubby things growing there so I, I don't, I do not think they're invasive. Okay, here's a question to the fruits have thrones on the branches. I don't know what that means they mean thorns, thorns, no thorns, no thorns kind of once the bark gets old it gets kind of peeling it's kind of interesting. Okay, now this person's hascaps already certain to bloom. Now, now we're getting freezing weather now. Is that going to be a problem. Are we going to lose our crop. They say that has kept flowers can take 19 degrees Fahrenheit and still produce fruit. We have had some time we had one year when we had 17 and 18 degrees while it was blooming the Russian ones were blooming. And I don't know if they actually if those flowers actually produced fruit I'm not sure I will tell you that the bloom period was very long because I think that the blossoms that were on their way were set back and delayed, and then they kind of regrouped and then started blooming again, we had we had a crop that year so I can't exactly tell you but I think they will be all right. Okay, birds like hascaps how about deer. You know, I know that when fields of hascaps are planted the deer will pull the plants out of the ground. I don't know if they will eat the plants in general because deer always want to taste something new, you know, that's how they learn. I don't know if they like them in general because we have a fence around there and the deer can't get to them. They're kind of a fuzzy leaf so they may they might not like that fuzzy leaf. Okay, again, the ascaps out here in the West are breaking their buds. Can you still prune them. If they're not broken very much you know you can you can prune anything at any time but I will tell you once once it's broken the buds. Energy has already been put into that shoot and so you've wasted some of the energy from the roots. So I would say you probably can still prune, and your plant will be fine I mean they're tough, they're tough, but ideal is before they break bud. Right, how about you have to have two varieties to get fruit. In general, you have to have to the variety solo and that variety indigo jam are partly self fruitful, but are self pollinating, but in general you will get a much better crop with two varieties and they have to be two unrelated varieties like borealis and tundra can't pollinate each other. So whoever you buy the plants from should be selling you the correct pollinizing variety it's got to be an unrelated variety. Okay, are all the Japanese you like Japanese selections are all them late ripening. How about the dead spotted winter soft law. How long you have to spray for that. Yeah, hopefully only once or twice with has gaps. In general the Russian ones ripen around July 15 to July, excuse me, June 15 to June 30 is what we found. And then the Canadian ones are right around the fourth of July. And then the Japanese ones are somewhere between the first or fourth of July until about the 10th of July. And we're trying to push that back a little and get the earliest ripening once. You can see a good SWD infestation by July 10 usually every year. And you can dehydrate them cancer the berries. You can when I have done it they're quite crispy, but you know, for other kinds of fruit like currents or cranberries they soak them in a 30% sugar solution. They dry them and then they'll stay like a, they'll stay like grapes, they'll stay like raisins, because raisins are like 25 30% sugar when they get dehydrated. I think we could just have the house cap hour here. The question just keep coming in here. Are you going to have a field day this year Kathy. I would say we are people are tired of not having stuff so we will I'm sure we'll have a field day and it'll be July 20. I do know that date already July 20. We'll put that on our calendar. It's kind of late for house gaps though. And anybody can come out and visit you anytime as long as they bring a pruners right. That's right. I got some more wisdom here. Forget the netting use swimming pools kids swimming pools underneath the bush. I guess Bob borse you that I think today here. Yeah, I kind of cut it in two and then put the two has together that it works. We haven't done that I use a cloth we just take old bed sheets and put them underneath there and just pick them like that. Okay, Kathy somebody wants your PowerPoint. You, they just have to email you. Yes. Yeah, there you go. I am going to, you know what we're just going to take a few more here. What do you do with the bunnies ate the two year old honeyberries to the ground. Well I know what I would do. You just, you're going to have to put a cage around them or something I guess. And so plants will recover though, right. Yeah, they'll actually probably grow better once they eat them. They did a favor for you. This is this pruning to three to four inches. How about the branches that you cut off. Can you propagate them. Well, you can propagate from dormant cuttings but. And you can propagate from green cuttings in June, but I'm not sure. Well I guess you're asking me about things you pruned off it has to be one year old would not the old would it has to be the red colored one year old would that's what you propagate and it needs to be as big as possible. So let me say, all plant breeders need money right the there's hardly any grant funding or anything for plant breeders and the only way they can get money is for you to buy a plant that has a 50 cent or if you're lucky a $1 but generally is 25 to 50 cent royalty. You buy if you buy a plant for $20 and there's a 50 cent royalty on there, it's the 50 cents that goes back to the breeder and so they can, they can keep working on these crops so I encourage you to not to actually buy the plants if you can. Yeah. It's it's panted are those are, those are pens. All the all the has kept varieties are penned. Yeah, so in some way talking about the law here the has kept police I'll get you. Yeah, I mean, it is illegal to propagate any patented plant, even for yourself. But I believe it is on the breeder to actually be the person to go and find you find you so it's, you know, it's not going to happen. But morally, morally, we should do the right thing. Gotta be on the honor system. Okay, last question then on how close when you plant like a to two varieties how close they have to be to pollinate each other. It's like 30 feet. Okay, sounds good. Kathy, I want to thank you. You just, you just got everybody so jazzed up tonight. So delicious. I just said yeah, they are super. And listen for, I'm sorry, we just can't get to all the questions I try to get as many as we can. I think we've answered like over, over 303540. Please contact Kathy have any special questions. She is the expert of North Dakota for has caps, and she's a wealth of knowledge. Just contact her directly and she'll be very helpful. Okay, if you bring your pruners and bring your bring your bring your back and your pruners get the work out. Okay, thanks Kathy. Okay, thank you Tom. Thanks everybody. Have a good spring.