 Good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's session and the digital euro work in progress My name is Roland Sheridan, and I am delighted to be your moderator today and Firstly by way of a short introduction and ever since we launched the digital euro project And ECB has been identifying the appropriate design options to provide European with a stable secure and convenient digital currency and so it's really important for us to Regularly engage with you as representatives of civil society to go understand reviews To get your questions and comments and also to share with you an update on where we are with the project and also insights and where we might be going and The number of you may have already attended our first session first time in our digital euro back in June Ready 22 about six months ago. And so it's really important that we get your feedback on your comments and we really do very much Reconvention So it's our pleasure to be here with you today What pop again about audience digital euro and just a couple of short And I would have put a house keeping and includes it before we get started One we're gonna have an online poll after we have a presentation from my colleagues here We'll have an online poll so that you can tell us which of the offer topics you would most like to hear about and then when we Get the opportunity to do so we can have a bit more in depth Those two topics and then you have some time at the end for kind of a more general Q&A Where you can address any comments or questions you have Not talk about Then secondly with regard to housekeeping Just we would ask that and you keep your microphones on mute unless corporate speaking And if you have any issues with regards to technical issues Please just address them in the chat to the host and my the colleagues in the team where they come to you right away Two of the things to mention one is that we would like if you can to put your ask that you and You put your cameras on about the kind of feel that's kind of a Good way for us to try and enrich the discussion on the interactive element of the session And finally to note that the session has been recorded and it will go on our website In the next coming days so just to be aware of that as well and with all that out of the way Then I think we can get on to the seminar and proper so It's a it's a real pleasure to introduce them everyone with us Who is leading the digital euro project here in the DCB and she's also joined by the urban shop who is and Charge of the communication experts at the digital euro so better the way Thank you very much We had been in contact June last year and so it's with another update on where we are and I like to I'm looking forward to the discussion we will have afterwards So let me Go through a couple of slides just to introduce the topic and to show where we are currently and then as I was explained We will open the door for a discussion And we go to the next slide Then you really see the agenda so we want to Start giving this a little bit of the framework So why are we considering digital euro and also what are the timelines that we are working with And then we go into a little bit more depth on the Design choices that we are going to have been discussing so first where could the digital euro be used Some of the more in-depth design choices privacy for being very important on roles and convenience and then the Ensuring of the usability of the digital euro the scheme approach might sound with the technical but I hope I can explain better In the slides financial inclusion as an important topic and then the digital euro for the future So with that Let me go into the digital euro framework And if we then Start let and that makes sense is what is the digital euro? So digital euro will be Liability for we could paint city center business areas in the entire euro area That sounds very technical But let me explain. For example cash is also a central bank liability Oh, if you have a bank now, that's a liability with the central bank and The digital euro will be a digital Version of this kind of liability and it's aimed at retail payments So the payments that we do as as a citizen to two businesses. So it's not about Payments for example the payments between businesses and it's about the entire euro area So we want to have ability to pay in the entire euro area a couple of important messages that we Have said before but we want to keep on stressing So it's a components to what is currently there. So it's not substituted cash And it's not something deep stupid to put in wholesale central bank Also The supervised intermediaries so that will be bands and payment service providers will facilitate the distribution of the digital euro So we will not get into a contract with the the central bank And and we go and open your account here. We will do that like super policy intermediaries And finally but not last we see the digital euro as a source of innovation and a public group So, uh, therefore itself, of course, not crowd out banks and also not bring their innovation If we then go to the next slide Um, we are currently in the investigation phase that started in Q4 2021 Um, and then we have spent 2022 roughly on All kind of separate elements of the digital euro that we need to consider so for example in which you stated Or uh, what would be the role of intermediaries? Or what would be the level of privacy that would be perceived? But also would it be an offline or would it be an online digital euro? We still need to finalize some of these decisions by the end of Q1 And then in Q2, we want to use this as a holistic review So then we're going to gather all these separate decisions and we take the A1 Who enter a view of the digital euro and then we go to review this and if I say we that will be The euro system but in consultation in discussion with the market as we have also done for all the other separate Decisions so There we have worked in a way where we have done personal internal analysis Went out to the market to stakeholders to to get their feedback incorporate that and then render that to more final decisions This we will do again in the holistic review. There are still Decisions that we have taken for a separate design decision could be reviewed in the visitor And that will be the content then that we will bring to the governing council Which is planned now for Q3 in the autumn Where we will go back with the outcome of the investigation phase And you know advice whether or not to go through a realization phase to the next phase and of course it's so how it goes to play Where we go to the next slide Here you'll see how we do the state parliamentary So how do we make sure that we are not in an ivory tower residing on the digital euro? As you can see we are really interacting with All which are state almost so in the middle part we see the structure we have within the euro system So, uh, you know easy for ejecting with nationals and programs joining Then we have a steering committee and then in the end we go to the executive board and the governing council But before we go there we aligned on the right hand side with market stakeholders We had different ways to do so so we have a market advisory group Where we have been right with experts from the market to Be in an advisory role and the personal titles are not represented in the companies or institutions that they work for I have it on their personal expertise Then we have the euro route payments board That is already consistent Consisting of the major stakeholders that we've had in the retail payments space And there as I explained before we present our design decisions Or solutions and then we get their feedback and then we go into a dialogue on How we saw a PPC of the input And then we have also the reach out to special interest group These we also consult public and citizens so in addition to what I said before So we have done a public consultation already. We work with focus groups So we have done an exercise at the end of last year and we are also at the end of 2021 And we are now finalizing the second round of focus groups in which we will publish the beginning of the two We have exchange of the CSOs. We have lectures, discussions with students And of course in this whole market environment This seminar is also an important platform for us And on the right and left hand side You see the interaction we have with the political stakeholders. So we have a public group together with the European council But we go very regularly and so we it's a NETA to the European Parliament to update on And the progress that we made As well as to the euro And then we can go to the next slide. Thank you very much. So more on the So first of all, it's important to understand where the digital will be used And here in this picture, you will see five different view spaces. I love the use cases that people consider Of which we have chosen for the first release is sleep. So that there will be person to person payments It's that for very close to the situation for very close to the US cash consumer provision is both a physical store as an e-commerce and also Virgin to government and buy from The other ones are of course also interested. That could be of interest for later For the better information we know that are currently not in scope for the first releases We then go to the next slide Then you see something more on the design choices And As I said before, there are quite a number of Design choices that we need to make in order to have addressed all the elements of the which Italy already Think of The first two sets you see with the blue square We currently finalized and we published on them You see a link here through the two reports that we published one was in september and the other one was in december And we're currently working on the third set. We hope to come to a decision in one from the industry and that said this will be the input on On the digital euro In the police review that we are planning to do This year If we go to the next slide Uh, a couple of important Things that we have decided so as I already said before So we consider if you think uh to develop an online solution Validated by third party, which is a kind of payment That you currently When I would do uh, for example, if you hear a far payment These are going via a network via and to validate by third party Was a good to mention that uh, also in the DLP or blockchain solutions, this is normally an online A solution where you have a third party by the way Then what we will also Uh issue, uh, then will be an offline peer-to-peer related solution. So that would be closer to that Uh, where you could have two devices and then between these two devices you can pay without any On the TV What we have excluded is the uh, uh peer-to-peer validate online because it's still experimental at this time Then uh, you see uh on privacy privacy is extremely important for us. Uh, So we want to deliver this to you with the highest level of privacy that is possible As you can understand, we need to find Uh, the balance between on one side the privacy and right on privacy and on the other side, uh, the Important to mention that the way we design the system would be uh, that we will as a euro system have No personal data. Uh, and for that we are experimenting with privacy and machine techniques Intermediaries would know, uh, see, uh, transaction data in order to do the analysis of the transactions And uh, we are still in discussion because privacy, uh, is in the end, uh, up to the legislative to Inside the form Discussing with them that it could be for seeing that lower value payments, uh, can have That low or uh, very limited The last one, I'm not going to Much further there, but it's also all that we want to control the amount of pitch to the order of circulation in order to ensure Stability and that we're considering holding limit options. Uh, and the remover machine methods these tools are currently only Uh, decided upon that we will implement on the design If they would go through the realization phase, which tools we use but also the parameters for these tools will only be decided much closer to a possible We then go to uh, the next slide On privacy, I think I might not say a lot of words, but uh, but there are some things are always good to stress so Privacy, if you could have seen not one of the first topics that we addressed Because we think that it is your shoot at your privacy by default and by design Uh, we find it important that people control their personal data and money um As I said before no access to personal data, uh, the value between union and cft Uh offline, I think it would be good to stress a little bit better that we think that offline which to your people but For private story a degree of privacy close to cash as I said before it's a clear to be evaluated Conception so like with the banknote. I'll give you that note to my colleague or Your friend and there's no one between the offline that would be the same Uh, and potentially it would pay for the for the highest level of privacy um, and then Important to mention, uh, it's not directly related to privacy But uh, it's important to stress that the digital euro won't be programmable one so, uh It's like there's a banknote. It's like with all the other world rules that are if you buy this info buy It's a money and it's only programmable and that's the same for the digital euro If we then go to the next slide Um role between the areas um It's of course important up next to the financial stability that we also ensured that the The whole ecosystem is not constructed that we foresee a big role of uh for the superfiles and unions uh, they will perform, uh Um What a number of tasks that they came through already doing so they do the end view for onboarding the surface the end user um, if you The initiation of the pain and validation will be done by the superfile intermediary settlement Like it is also Now it's done by the euro system. I mean, of course the second intersection for the ground again by the superfile I think that that I was looking so in this slide if we go to the next slide um The screen approach And the screen approach is very much About making sure that the digital euro like the banknote can be used all over you Um, and in order to do so we need to make sure that if we get the digital euro from an intermediary In a certain european country, let's say you come from Spain You get the you have a bank in Spain You get the you have the extra euro account there You get the payments needs from the spending stream But then if you travel to any other come euro country, so the Netherlands or Germany or Italy We should be able to pay with these means of payment Or are you know of any merchants right now In order to make sure that this is possible We need to set common wall standards. Uh, that are similar across the pan Euro area In order to promote this harmonized in which the payment gets paid apart from standardization and harmonization of these These interactions at the point of interaction the screen approach still leads a lot of flexibility and freedom for other providers to develop We are planning to start this Digital euro stream work Let's primarily we hope to do the pick up. We have hired a steam robot monitor Who was a platform in 13th december and in the beginning of january we issued A full interest To enable us to set up this group where public and private sector participants together work on this screen data Then go to the next slide And financial information It's an important problem so We believe that the digital euro should of course facilitate financial information Um There are lots of reasons why people are financially excluded And i won't be able to We will follow from but everything that would be in our inventory they'll proceed. So for example Uh, which for your point include the access to digital financial services Um, we can ensure everybody can pay and get paid with the digital euro If we'll announce the efficiency of which the payments uh lower costs The offline part is important. Um, we believe it's to facilitate the enrollment and the adaptation And a lot of not least the cost of job probability And to facilitate the more generous and future experience And then we go to the last And that is the digital euro for the future So, uh, the digital euro is still a work in progress. I hope I have been Care that you have done a lot in the last one month here But I've still a lot of work ahead of us Which we are not doing on our own, but we really Do this with all stakeholders around us both in the digital euro program as well as in the real world work Um, we see that people payment behavior is changing and what we see is that there is a downward plan to pass the interest in the digital euro area So we believe that it's Important, uh, that there is also a digital euro that could enhance the digital progress and integration in euro um We believe that we see we have been Responsible for preserving the citizens trust in our currency and that we can also we should also transport this into the digital age Uh, and we believe that the digital euro Would be accessible to all That is how we would design it. Uh, and it will increase the The the choice of people have in how they want to meet that And with that when you come to the only person for each one Um And I think they would go through the voting. Yes. Thanks. Thanks very much for that Yeah, so we mentioned at the start that we would have a quick poll and we would use this to Choose the cream some of the things you heard about there and focus on the top two topics that that we can identify and they take time to And take the comments and your questions So on your screen now on the webex view and you should see a question And come up The instructions on how to answer a quick poll so Our asking here is that if it doesn't come up straight away by the way, please And just make sure you're on the slider window and the top 10 members on the webex screen You should see them if you don't see it there then and there should be a qr code That you can scan with the mobile device as well So you can choose between the four of these options. So try to see Design choices roll of intermediaries and the scheme approach And so when you get a chance to To vote on on that You choose the ones that you're the one that you most likely feel from today when you pick the top two And then when we do that, I would say we spend a lot of time speaking about this We should have time at the end of this as I said at the start to So already what I can see Privacy seems to be So certainly and perhaps you can already begin to think about that And then also for me, so I think this guy with that roll of intermediaries looks like something people want to talk about So with that in mind then and Then I think we take those at the top of the topic So if we start with privacy and as you heard from Eveline already We've come along from when we began this project in the video privacy is a really We've stopped it for us and that's you know, it's something that we very much want to um The very value we're very much aware of the head already from Eveline It's it's a really cool process You know privacy by default and design is kind of cute to to help us So So maybe already Then you can begin and to raise your hands and ask with any questions you have on the ground to ask this, please Raise your virtual hands and then you go mutual questions, so So say but say it is that could be a topic that you have We have certainly been speaking about before and I think this is here that it's it's so And related to how people use cash shooting and every sense the visual strength of something So Questions to start us off anyone who had We're chosen privacy for the purpose of the profession Comments Do not be a person everyone are very quiet Really what are we waiting? And I mean in terms of how everything we see well Privacy as a concept in terms of cash Do you mean the question down for me in a way that perhaps maybe start this process? But you see it as something which I want for one like obviously cash I received the digital year as a compliment to cash and very much something which can be used sort of It doesn't replace cash Do you see the any differences between how we can apply privacy for cash and how we would include it That's it There's there's a big difference between cash and digital year and that's because of the digital year or because like it's digital So with cash you wrote something in your hand, but with digital you need to put it On something that is digital so that makes it By nature that we cannot make it one-on-one exactly the same because of the digital nature but as I said With offline We we think that we are closest to cash as I said before because It will be on something you want and can be apart or can be on your phone We still need to really deep dive into the technical background and solutions that are there Because we also need to make sure that it's really safe And then But you can exchange up with other third party in between so that that is really Okay, then and I think we might have a question in the chat I don't see it right yet now So, I mean the person who raised question feel free indeed to kind of on neutral side can ask the question directly if you'd like But otherwise Okay, yes, so Actually from I'm This Hi Yeah, thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask the first question. So my question concerns the exact guarantees You have in mind to A preserve privacy you have you have you have been quite quick on this and especially Regarding the fact that I mean as it is now the project would rely on intermediaries So there will be privacy issues at the level of the central bank but also at the level of intermediaries and I mean I don't know who these intermediaries will be but currently Commercial banks for instance, they have some requirements regarding tax issues for instance How do you how do you do you Think about guarantees So that's like the digital euro will be maybe more private than traditional commercial accounts I would say I hope my question is is clear. Thank you Thank you very much. Thank you for for this question and it's a it's a clear question So, so let me Distinguish two things. So you're very wide. So there is a there's a The question on how What data is shared at the intermediary level and what data is shared with the recent program So to let let me start with the last one Um, so we currently really You know investigating How we if we could foresee a technical setup Where we can do the settlement and all the tasks that we need to do in order to make sure that the digital euro is both issued But also that the campaign digital euros, you know, that those transactions are settled In a way, uh, the central bank that our system really needs any personal data So that we design it in a way that this data is not even entering our system So that even if somebody would want to see it, it couldn't because we don't have the labor So that is something that we are doing on the on the central bank side in the design. We're investigating How we could do this As I said before we need to find a balance between a ml cct and finding thought on one hand and the On the other hand Derived right to see so for now it's for seeing at least by us That the intermediary would have access to your data because of the rules because they need to comply to a ml cct Also for the digital euro Since digital euro legislations, they need to be drafted. We are discussing with the legislator if we could foresee for example, uh, some room to have a lower transaction monitoring for example on low value transaction But uh, it's still a discussion and in the end it's also the latest labor that will decide upon this level of privacy Uh, so this is very much also debate around the proper translation Thank you Thank you. And anyone Okay, fresh. Yes. Uh, I see the break started the question. Yeah, please go ahead there So my my original um encounters with cbdc were in 2015 with monetary reform groups who wanted to basically kneecap the banking sector By providing a form of state competition to the digital deposit system the banking sector runs, right? And what I'm most interested in here when you're talking about your sort of relationship with intermediaries is what is the political relationship right now with the how does the banking sector perceive the digital euro? and I'm kind of interested in the sort of the cloaked language that I see around sort of like the waterfall and this kind of stuff I want to know what is that waterfall and what is the sort of the Engagement that you're having with the banking sector right now about protecting your interests essentially um That's a lot question So, um, let's have to work for because I think that's of course slightly different topic But I can come back to that if you want So, um With the intermediate we are in in close Contact in order for the design Um, because as we said we want them to really the distribution of the digital euro And As I think with all stakeholders, there are some uh posts that we see but there are also some Concerns that they have so we talk about both of them. Um, so I think what if you talk on With the with the band They'll we discuss The design itself. So how could it be attractive for the end users and therefore also for for the bands? Um, but also they raise some questions about for example, the promotion stability Uh, because some of the liquidity will will move And that's also why we Have addressed the To control the amount of circulation rather early in the project In order to get on for that. Um, because on both sides, how much is to do the piece as important for us? as for that I'll just answer some of the questions Great. Thank you very much breath. Um, so then we have a question in the chat from Martin Schneisfried So the question is do you intend to revise anti-money laundered routes to enable people to use basic non-pastodial digital euro accounts? No need for any no, you know, customer process They have to tackle financial exclusion notably of certain nationalized groups like undocumented immigrants Thank you for the question It's a it's a good question um First of all, uh on on the the rules for all the law In it will be uh at the latest later that that's right. So it's not the easy way that can set these rules Uh, or can change these rules Uh, we will of course yet reduce rules. So it's also to be clear on that Um, so so far we have Said uh from a euro assistance perspective that we would Proceed not a full anonymous feature. That would mean that the share of the level of KYC Needs to be done However financial inclusion Is important and so uh, so for example, uh, immigrants I think are Um Is something to look into how we could do that maybe not specifically for the rich or what are on the wider part, but on uh, I have the rules for privacy and um This is something that is in the levels later area As a as a starting point, we have said that from our perspective and we should be ruled out So that we should always to know that somebody thought I Not that you need to know for I want to be more clear So the european center will not know but we need to make sure that they need to maybe are just okay Let's see then they under somebody Great, thanks for that. So we have a question now from Catherine Lach Catherine see you on the screen. So please go ahead to the question or comments. Yes I read that um, we had a um Cooperation with amazon testing cbdc and I would like to know how Would you make sure That amazon for example would respect and obey uh, european privacy laws And that in the end would not be the american privacy law I think the digital euro will follow the european laws and not the american laws um And I know then when we announced The the participants to the prototyping where amazon was one of the providers Is raised a lot of concerns. I just want to say something from that So, uh the prototyping is really a learning experience We have published everything that we have shared with not only amazon there were four other european companies that participated as well All the information that we have shared with them. We have we're not doing anything with real data. So that is going in time it's only fictional data Um, so so that I just want to give some Insurance that the participation From any of the providers in the prototyping doesn't go beyond the prototyping As such and all the privacy rules that will be imposed for the digital euro will be for all Uh, that we aren't redistributing okay, and Then there's a question in the chat slide from ben kutubek from finance box I was wondering if there could be a greater elaboration of our privacy by going for the considered now very well question In case you want to be more specific how I work this is Well, let me try to start with a non-terminally, uh, is that um, they actually Do when we discuss privacy the stakeholders, uh, we actually normally get two kind of questions and one is Um, what will the central bank know? Uh, and on the other hand, what will the private will be entering privacy? Uh, uh So I think those are the two levels as I said before on the only what information there was some program No, we are currently designing the system in a way uh, that that we uh We will not have any question data. So that is that is one important one and uh In the other privacy guidelines couple things that they accept So we have set from a new system perspective. We would rule out Uh, cool on unity Uh, that means that if somebody wants to have a digital euro account We need to go through a table and some process, uh, at the first intermediary uh, and that uh, transaction data will be Monitored by super price intermediaries For the only reason that they could do this is because of for AMC of free purposes And then the last thing is that um We are further discussing whether we You know the legislator sees room to allow a higher level of privacy for your work there And I hope I've been Answering the question and if not, please, uh, uh, raise your hand and follow up question Okay, so then we have a couple more practice now and we had allocated about Five minutes to each of these departments. We'd simply have a couple more questions here. Let's let's get these questions now and then We, um, and and we're on the second The role of intermediate. So Brett has a question. Brett, please go ahead um, so you made a point about stressing that you're not trying to compete with the physical cash system, but I'm Skeptical about the political reality of that whether in practice actually the sort of hype around cbc contributes to the broader kind of Digital hype more generally All right, and I'm guessing when I'm looking at the sort of politics You're talking about players like amazon players like amazon hate the cash system precisely because they can't automate it So to what extent do you rarely see yourself as It's a playing into the broader interests of transnational corporates that require digital automation Versus the interest of the public who actually might not want everything to be automated And in many ways the cash system is the kind of public bicycle of payments versus the uber of payments Where do you kind of actually place the the cbdc in there? Do you see it as a way to basically empower digital corporates or are you trying to simultaneously promote the physical cash system as well? Well, I think we have to be very clear. So we stay fully committed to touch. Uh, so this is this is really only complimentary But we do see and that is not in the hands of the cb and it's also not for the cb to Determine is that there are people more and more like to pay in addition Interpayment, so we just published the space report Where you saw that in the the number of transactions with the pain transactions that have been done with cash Was lowered in three years time from seventy three percent to No, I don't have a heart So we see a tendency And also in when asking people what they how they would like to pay You see a growing Growing attraction of wanting to pay Digitally having said that they have also clearly indicated that they would like to have and continue to have the access to cash So, um, I think with the in our view with keeping from it, but we can make the full Fesh and Next to that have a completely rich to euro which will uh And power because we want to make this as as a user friendly but also as property friendly Solution to empower the consumer to want to know if you're a digital Painer that they can do this In the in the very part of them So if I said again, it's not one against the other if there will be a company Great. Thank you for that. I think we're trying to just one more of this part when we move on to that for the second time So and the question then from Chris time to go and this person please have your question Thank you. Good afternoon We published yesterday with the the blend institute a report, which is entitled a digital euro for a better monetary system The case for a public option So my question is on this aspect that we are of course looking forward to discussing this report further with you I'm looking at the work done by the swedens central bank We see that they consistently consider private and public Intermajories It's quite hard to hear we're struggling a little bit to try and hear what you're saying. I think the connection is not great If you just repeat that again, what we're saying We just in terms of the question Yes, um, if we look at the work done by the swedens, uh central bank We see that they consider always private and uh public intermajories for the whole cvdc The ecb on in spart always only considers private uh intermajories for the digital euro Can you tell us what justifies this difference in your view? Because the position the position of the return Is based on the fact that we can't expect the market to accommodate all needs So why would it be different in the case of the euro area? Thank you well we believe that Um If you look to the whole of europe and the distribution that you need to network that you need to have to reach all citizens that the currency that i said to meteors are best positioned to take to take this role towards the end users um We are currently uh and A couple of things i think with the rulebook we try to make sure that it was uh The same everywhere so that we can make sure that the city public group that was the same all over the euro area for for everybody uh, and uh Next to that we are considering whether it would make sense to have and that's to the possibility to access a 50 euro By uh, for example, the internet banking environment Of the intermediary also by uh, it's for your at the would be provided by the euro system As i said, this is still uh, uh, Great thanks for that So i think in the interest of time you were a bit slow to get going in terms of getting the questions But then we require a rack i think it's in the interest of time We might move on to next topic So the second topic that people had uh, had looked at was role at intermediaries with the one that we try hard And so maybe in that context, you mean for the things that you have already discussed Everly, you know, what role tends to provide the Impenuveless flow and then an opposite into that is how would we distribute it? So just on that we have any questions to focus our attention that we Reflections from anybody um Yeah, we have a question conrad and then a question from christian. So conrad, please Hi, good day. Thank you very much Um, my question is not necessarily about intermediaries, but more about uh, programmability I hope you wouldn't mind me asking this question. Uh, just had a look at Your publication that was issued on the 16th of january The digital euro stock take You indicate that, um, the digital euro Is not about programmable money All right, so we know that means money that comes with any sort of baked in or Constraints in terms of how it may be spent or timing in terms of when it should be spent Could you perhaps give us any sort of guarantees from a design perspective that that will be the case and that this won't Change in the future. Perhaps. I think this goes along with regards to things like privacy and the preserving of Of liberties and and the like. Thank you very much Touching back briefly and then we want to do a longer lunch and I would be both Yeah, just because I'm focusing on the road into maybe so Okay So, um, I think we have been Yeah, but we will not do any features related to Programmable money into the system How we would technically Ensure that we can never do this I would need to get the chair and to see if we can really have an answer and make a wedding Um, but we as I said, I I also don't Or as we said Why Think about programmable we we are not thinking about programmable money Programmable money we could see as a sort of a part of her example That's not what we do the real system if we money And We will do so the same for Which Thank you. Um, I mean my my question basically sort of potentially straddles Some of the of the topics If we look at The role of the intermediaries you all mentioned both sort of the Onboarding process KYC um account account keeping etc Including the wallet now, um, which Frankly sort of um begs the question from my point of view. Um, the design of the wallet Is is something that is on the one hand sort of intubately linked clearly to to The data, um, so the use of data, um to, um Data leakage potentially And to privacy, but on the other hand it is also sort of something that is goes to to a large extent Towards um interoperability towards Towards uh standardization and the question here is um, have you considered the possibility of, um a centralized standardized, um Sort of wallet, uh to be provided from the public side To be uh to be used by any of the By all intermediaries both public and private And if so sort of what what what are your arguments pro and con? You know a little bit Yeah, but let me see if I can uh, then I'll show you a question. So The work that we just discussed, um, or I'll just say that we are considering would be A little bit too much So in the core we foresee that if you want to be on board on a rich career Around or we want to be able to hold rich career You need to go via a superfiles intermediary Um, that needs to do the KYC And to be a conception With the work that we provide or we go we put Go through that platform instead of going through A little bit of this by by by your brain um Having said that the standardization and organization that you alluded to Um is very important and part of the work that I mentioned under the scheme rule book would be around that So to make sure that whoever provides This wallet or this entry into the digital yours or where you can initiate the transactions But also where you can see your balances and receive transactions Um that we will harmonize the standardize so that we really have a homogeneous way of interacting with the digital your life will have Whether it's not If you're one bank it would be like this and with the other it would work like that because it's it's really important that it's it's one user experience Uh, thanks very much. I'm looking at spare the uh, whether it's literally I don't see any more hand rate So we had to leave a piece of time towards the end and paper where I throw the questions people want to raise on Other aspects that we haven't put on here. So again, we've had problems in these two areas And specifically um, because we kind of to talk Asking you which means you want to Are there any other questions that people have that you'd like to ask now or comments they'd like to make Before we close the session We'll have a couple of minutes left for Well, I'm kind of jumping on uh on any of the great times I've seen I don't want to dominate, but I'm a very opinionated person as you can detect I just want to make a comment maybe or maybe a question on the The earlier response got about the cash thing and I find that in a lot of institutions There's a story that people in the public are just naturally kind of moving To digital as if it was a kind of a passive thing But I think we need to take seriously the fact that the private sector digital payments industry has been campaigning for digital very very actively For the last like three decades So when I hear the story that says oh, well, there's a sort of a kind of Gradual move that we can't act against. It doesn't feel convincing to me I feel like as the issuer of and the maintainer of the stability of the monetary system The ECB has to have a kind of a bit more of a Figurous approach to protecting the cash system because on the other side of the equation the digital players do I will actively campaign against it It's slightly uh beyond my remit The only thing I can say is is that we are very committed to cash and that we are consistently updating cash for this great future and so we really foresee that cash will be there and also towards their Every future so we will make sure that that it stays Available great Thank you very much then and we thanks very much for your participation everyone and with really very much research and You know it's it's important for us to be able to um to provide you with this opportunity But also for us to hear how we Think them just like when they become friendly there first to hear what you are and what you're using so Just before we finish and we'd have a You have a feedback survey Which means to see how it's also in terms of how we would go forward with sessions like this So if you if you have the time please just of course could be anonymous And and if you have for a moment, we will be We're out if you would just take the opportunity to start a couple of quick questions And before I include the session then just any closing remarks And maybe you want to say that we haven't said already or any thoughts I'm not going to be any new things and not going to allow anybody to say something But I I would like to thank all of you who joined this interaction. It's a very important interaction for us And we already appreciate that your contributions in June and we're happy that you weren't near here um And also we are planning We said that we would do with roughly every month here So I would say around summer and before summer would be a good time frame again. Let's see if we can do this um In general, we are Very Open so we try to be as transparent as possible. So if you go to our website You can find all kinds of information you try to structure in a way that if you go in you first find More high-level overview that you can dig further into quite a number of of detail of considerations and work that we are doing And we would like to stay in touch and to keep giving from you from those things that That are concerned but also The value that you see that Thank you very much And then get them from all of us then just wish you a very good evening and uh the next time