 Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Informed and Engaged, which is a weekly conversation about the ideas and the solutions that are changing the media landscape. The inaugural episode of Informed and Engaged kicks off with a crucial conversation that meets the moment, but is long overdue. Here to introduce today's guest is Lashara Bunting, director of journalism at Knight Foundation. Thank you, Jennifer. In the past two weeks, we have seen dozens of journalists of color share their personal stories of racism in their news organization. And as a result, we've seen the resignations of several high level editors. For today's show, we're going to go deep into this moment of reckoning and journalism and explore what news organizations and publishers and news executives can do to dismantle the systems of racism that exist in the organizations and within journalism. We have a powerhouse lineup today with us is Martin Reynolds, co-executive director of the Maynard Institute. Thera Lomax-Rees, he is the CEO and president of WURD Radio in Philadelphia, and Mitra Khalida, senior VP of news, opinion and programming at CNN Digital. This is going to be a great discussion. So for those watching, whether you're watching it on Zoom or on Facebook, please use the platform that you're on to submit questions. We hope to get to those toward the end. With that, Martin will kick us off. Thank you so much, Lashara. And thanks to the Knight Foundation for putting this conversation on. It's very, very important and very well needed. So I just want to start the conversation in this way. So like the nation, journalism is at an inflection point. The pandemic and the killing of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and Rashard Brooks in Atlanta over the weekend, and a seemingly endless list of black men and women and people of color has continued to lay bare the deep racism and white supremacy and health and wealth disparities of our nation. This at a time when many newsrooms themselves are in crisis. Some of that crisis is financial, but there are two other crises of our own making that we must face as a profession, a lack of trust and a lack of, and a systemic lack of diversity, equity and inclusion. Really at this moment, the soul of American journalism is at stake, particularly for legacy institutions. And as a profession, we must reconcile that we are part of the very system protesters across the nation and world are pushing back against. And I'm speaking of the larger we as there are certainly sectors of news and instances of coverage that run counter to the oppressive systems that people of color and indigenous folks have to navigate. But we must ask ourselves and I'm borrowing from Dr. Glenda ran here who's a physician, not a journalist and she talked about people needing to ask themselves, are they sustainers, creators, deniers facilitators or dismantlers of systemic racism. And at the very least news organizations have been sustainers and facilitators that we have run police mugshots full of black and brown faces, knowing they drive page views. We've co created with police departments, giving their reports and quotes more weight than we would the account of a woman from the community. And we've disproportionately cast black and brown folks as criminals as victims, derelicts, entertainers and athletes for decades, helping to shape the perception that black men in particular are dangerous. Our communities, other communities were simply ignored their erasure, a silent and insidious facilitation of racism and white supremacy. So, how do we meet this moment, how can we push forward and show the value of inclusive newsrooms that work in service of a craft to which we have all dedicated our lives. The Maynard Institute has been fighting to make America's newsrooms reflect the diversity of the nation since nine diverse journalists started this organization in the wake of the Kerner Commission report. The report that called out news outlets as complicit in their inability to effectively articulate the true stories behind the unrest of the civil rights era because mainstream news organizations lack diversity. And ironically, if you read this report today, you would wonder if much progress has been made. So much is still yet to be done and we are navigating another kind of civil rights movement in this country now that centers around health and wealth and state sanctioned violence against people of color. The framing of our challenge within journalism has been rooted in diversity, equity and inclusion. And quite frankly, these are terms that don't actually get at the real problem. And I don't mean to imply that people working in news outlets themselves are racist, although some may be. I'm speaking of the generational ambient racism that permeates these institutions and can be seen in how we approach coverage and hiring and retention. But it goes beyond who's in the building. For instance, how many black police chiefs have been at the helm of departments that commit violence against communities of color. How many editors of color have been unable to affect the kind of sweeping change that reflects a dismantling and institutionalized racism because one's presence isn't enough to make the kind of functional and foundational change that is necessary. There is a movement in these streets and there needs to be a movement in our newsrooms, but I am hopeful. I'm hopeful because as I look around the nation and see journalists of color and their allies pushing back and calling for change, and I have two fantastic guests to help contextualize this. And Mitra, I'm going to start with you. So before joining CNN, you are managing editor for editorial strategy at the LA Times and you're a woman of color, a leader who sought to bring forward innovative approaches to covering topics such as black Twitter, for example. And this was a specific example of the kind of editorial shift that can begin to add nuance to coverage of communities of color. And while important though, some may argue that it, the creation of any sort of beat is really just a tweak and so stepping outside your role at CNN. How do you see this moment for legacy institutions. So I want to begin by thanking you personally Martin thinking you because the Maynard Institute and the Kerner Commission report has everything to do with my own career trajectory, but also tonight for hosting this. And I admit that I feel a little sheepish about being here, because for the last few weeks really the message I've been trying to get out is that there is a need to center black voices right now. There is a need to center black hiring black retention black promotions, and the rest will follow. So, to begin with me I just want to acknowledge that because if you take anything away, you know that has been my mantra that being said to your point. There are few of us in the executive ranks right and the burden of representation I've always seen as one that is inclusive. In every sense of that word to essentially pay forward the path that was paved for you know my family by being able to be in the United States and I think that segues a little bit to what you're asking about. So, you know, there are really times where you know I as managing editor one of the first moves I made that got a lot of attention was hiring a correspondent to cover black Twitter. And I imagine right now, a lot of newsrooms are having a similar conversation around how do we cover race, right. Should we launch a race and identity team, should we have a race beat if you didn't have one if we have one how are we covering it. And I think there's, there's a lot of positives that came out of what I was trying to do at the LA Times, which was shifting how we see beat coverage right can we be in the community that we're covering. Certainly when it comes to police violence. So much of it was playing out on social media so the thinking around to beat like that was. So we need to be be a part of the community that we cover as a way to improve coverage right LA County is about 9% African American and the city of Los Angeles, I believe about 10% the LA Times newsroom was less than half of that right so this was a quick way to immerse ourselves in the community that we're covering. We hired someone who you would call a non traditional candidate right that's that's the term that we use in the newsroom. The PhD candidate Dexter Thomas just got his PhD and now he's a correspondent for Vice News he's a phenomenal journalist. That's all the good stuff. The bad I think is what we're talking about today is how do you keep this from just being cosmetic or kind of, I think where you're going with it of, is this just like a tweak and beat coverage right. What I didn't think about was, how do we manage to amplify his voice. What is the copy desk. What's the role that they play in some of the terms that we use in the use of video. Is this going to be labeled opinion and article or analysis which I'm sure I know this like I can't see anyone who's tuning in but this is a eternal struggle in newsrooms of what do we label coverage of race right because it's coming from the perspective of an African American who's known on Twitter, and many of the fights over the last few weeks have been been been over this exact discussion. So I think you know to sort of wrap that up I think we're sick of diversity being attack on subject that if we are going to augment our coverage. It actually we need to look at the entire system within which it exists including our copy desk our editors that are editing this copy, because otherwise, if we're not rethinking everything about how we're covering this moment then this moment will feel like every moment that came before it and it's not going to be the movement that everybody is hoping that it really is this time. A quick follow up before I go to Sarah. So stepping sort of into your role at CNN, are these kinds of systemic questions being discussed because I think, to your point about for those of us who sort of been in the business a long time so to having a beat that was focused on a particular system that felt like a win right, but now what we are seeing is that it's still functioning within this larger system and the gaze in which journalism is framed right and pushed out is still from within this institution so I'm wondering, within CNN, what kind of conversations are happening and are they at the systemic level. Maybe they are I mean Jeff Zucker convened small groups large groups pretty much right away and, and these conversations have been ongoing around coverage I think over the weekend some of this was put to the test right because we had the incident at the Wendy's in Atlanta that you mentioned, and you could just see a shift in the conversation around it. Are we profiling Brooks, his daughter turned eight yesterday and she was supposed to have a scale you know she planned to do a skating party right so there's, there's that conversation right away of not just, I think what you know historically it's the armed black man right that's sort of the catch all that we right away went to fuller portrait and humanization as a conversation. I'm going to say as a step forward. I think the conversation that really we need to be having is the role of police reporting accountability. You know journalism and the use of phrases like the authority said like we are in a very. I'll say cozy relationship with police and police reporting and this is historic and this is entrenched in how we commit our journalism. I think those are going to be ongoing conversations I do assure you that within CNN they definitely are occurring. Okay. Thank you. Sarah I want to turn to you. I imagine from where you sit you have a bit of a different perspective and I have been on calls with you when you are considerably more direct on issues related to diversity and I've always appreciated that. As president and CEO of the only black owned talk radio station in Pennsylvania, you hold a unique perch to look at these issues and your grad you have a graduate degree in journalism you sat on the Lenfest Institute Board, and you're now a table stakes coach for the new major metro cohort and for those who don't know what table stakes is night foundation for about five years has been funding a framework to support performance driven change in newsrooms such as around growing subscriber revenue and other transformational initiatives. And so as an outlet serving the black community, Sarah how do you see this moment for American newsrooms and have you given some thought to the kind of council that you will give the journalists that you're going to be working with as part of this table stakes initiative this year. Well, thanks Martin it's great to be in this conversation with you and Mitra and a big thanks to Jennifer and Lashara having the courage to have a really frank conversation about systemic racism, which is something that is not new at all to anyone in the black press in the black community and so it's it's it's refreshing quite frankly that this this deep systemic blight on America is finally being discussed in a way that I've never seen before in my life I mean this is right up there with President Obama getting elected I never thought I would see a black man get elected president, and I never thought I would see the day where mainstream white led news organizations were having really thoughtful and deep conversations about anti black racism and so that to me and and, you know, as a black media organization is a black talk radio station community we are having these conversations all the time. We are talking about police brutality we're talking about the underfunding of public education we're talking about health care disparities, all of these things. So so in a way for me it's it's a little bit frustrating that there's like this oh wow, we need to do something about this this this like surprise surprise and to me what that indicates is, you know the world either is black people are inherently inferior or dumb or criminal, or that there is actually systemic racism, and that that that there is a real problem, because there's no way that you can just be waking up to the fact that the media is implicit in systemic racism or that all of these other systems exist, because it is it is so obvious that black people have been oppressed systemically for 400 years and it's manifested in politics in the economic structure in public education in health care in every system that exists, and the media has to start looking at itself as one of those institutions that is complicit and what's interesting is at the last news guys we had a similar topic about the media's the media's complicity in promoting or protecting white supremacy. And so I love the fact that that Lashara and Jennifer and the Knight Foundation is is having this even larger conversation. So, you know, the, the, to me, the challenge is that this is a great I mean there's there's, there's, it's always a good time to have this kind of conversation. It's always a good time for the newsrooms and all of these systems to begin to really reflect deeply about their, their role in in this this kind of white supremacist racist system. But it's also even more complex at a time like this where everyone is so dialed in and and very focused on this it's hard for media organizations who do not have the trust of the black community. So, so this notion I hear a lot of people saying we've got to rebuild trust with with with the black community and with communities of color. No, it was never there. It was never ever there so it's not a rebuilding process. It's it's actually a repair it's it's a digging out because it's not even like your, your initiating a relationship of trust. There is a history of damage and stereotyping and caricaturing and and demonizing black people in white led media organizations as you mentioned Martin in your in your and so there is like, like, very deep. You know someone a spiritual teacher that that I am very fond of says that that racism is a heart disease. It's a disease of your heart. And so that is a much more like I can. I can lay out a bunch of things that I think newsroom should do in terms of addressing this kind of complicity in systemic racism, you know, obviously, at the top of the list is you have to have people of color in positions of power in these media organizations. You have to have and I will say black people, because the thing and I've said this to you Martin, you know, in the fault lines structure, you know, all fault lines are not created equal. Right. You know, like, like, like the fact that black men and black women are the ones who are being murdered in the street, and then these police officers are exonerated or not never charged or whatever. So that is a very specific thing in this country that happens to black people my three black sons, I have to try and arm them in the most, you know, ridiculous way, so that they can navigate a system that that is almost in unnavigable. So, so, so I don't want to just keep going on and on because I, I, there are a couple of things that I would say have to happen in, in newsrooms. I do think that diversity at the highest at the highest level. I don't really believe in ownership. I am a believer that the ownership of a media organization matters, because if the ownership is understands these issues and understands that it's not just about window dressing it's not just a, it's something that they got to do to make themselves look good in the moment and then they can get back to business. That matters. I know as an owner, you know, we, I, my family owns WURD, and that is we that gives us the independence and the autonomy to really represent the people. And so that's the other thing. These newsrooms have to center their coverage on the people they have to value and I would even say love the people, you know, that that is something that that we don't talk about as journalists because there's supposed to be this, you know, this objectivity in this. But if you don't see yourself in that community, if you don't see like when, if you don't see your child as, as, you know, you know, the, the Emmett Till or, or Rashad Brooks, you know, if you don't see, if you see no connectivity in the humanity of these people that are being shot and killed, because they're them and that it couldn't even, you can't even fathom that touching your life. That's a problem because that speaks to the fact that there is not a real full embrace of our full humanity of black people. So I think I'll pause there because I have some other like specifics, but I think I'll pause there. And we may be able to get to some of those specifics in questions that people bring up. So this is really to both of you, a little bit of context. So we've seen younger journalists of color pushing back now against management and a number of newsrooms across the country right in Philadelphia the executive editor resigned following the buildings that matter to headline. The newspaper Guild of Pittsburgh is calling on leaders of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette to step down after two black journalists were barred from protest coverage and actually one of them, Michael Santiago, who was a Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist actually took a buyout. And so is now leaving the publication. And one of the things he said during the panel that we were on last week was that this is the your point, Sarah, that I don't want to work at a place where I'm not loved. So it's when you said that it really stuck out at me. Also, ABC News is having its own problems as Barbara Fedita. There was a report in Huffington Post about insensitive comments when discussing Robin Roberts contract. Apparently, Fedita was here saying that it's not like ABC was asking her to quote pick cotton. So in conversations, and also in conversations I've had with other news executives across the country, there are newsrooms tensions right now that are percolating that could really spill over into some very public messes for news outlets. And so what's also really interesting though is that this outrage is being fueled by younger journalists to a great degree. And so I'm curious as to what each of you make of this widespread internal journalistic activism. And if you think that it could ultimately lead to systemic change and what are the implications for this for our business, if it does not, if these changes are not made. And Mitra, why don't we start with you and then Sarah. Sure. I mean, I should say that I'm very grateful for a younger generation that's, that's not just challenging. I would say they're white editors, but they're challenging folks like me who are journalists of color but came of age in a certain system a certain way of doing things so I just, I welcome the I welcome what is happening right now. And I think just for the watchdog nature of it right. There are so many editors who are on guard right now because their entire past is being in some ways on display and so for people like me who've seen folks just ascend. And we all know that feeling where you're like based on what because you knew this person who knew you know or you and we've all watched this. You know the my first reaction to the folks who got dismissed was what about all the people who they might have stepped on along the way up. Right. And so there is an element right now of potentially potentially writing what has happened that I welcome and then again to challenge even journalists of color within the system on how we do things and why I think it's something our industry needed to do long ago right and I think this actually relates immensely to what you're asking of like well will it will it work because I don't want to be a downer but I think you need to look at the history of change in journalism right like until just a few years ago legacy organization still didn't want to post stories on the internet. But the newspaper to bed at night right forget diversity and journalism they weren't even willing to change how we do things for the audience that is clearly not consuming your newspaper right so I and I do link those two things because I think our future is at stake. Right. Describing I think our revenue models to Sarah's point about ownership or at stake. I think all the people who've rushed to nonprofits over the last few years I think the diversity and those ranks is I mean I think that model is at stake. I think whether we succeed in our fight as publishers against platforms and trust issues on Facebook I think that connects back to the need for us to be more inclusive so I want to be clear and my hope of the people who signed up for this because I've heard it's like like more than 1000 which is more than any diversity talk I've ever been to my hope is that a lot of them are white journalists who realize that this is the linchpin right this is not something we've been talking about for fun. This actually has everything to do with our success, not just as an industry but I would say as a democracy. I truly believe that. I think that's really well said. And I think one of the things that it constantly what ends up happening when you go to a conference right the diversity conversation is being had by people who already know it's valuable and it has never really been tethered to survival right it hasn't been tethered to growth and sustainability. It's been increasingly tethered to trust, which Sarah alluded to that that in communities that represent audiences of the future often so often that's been frustrating is how these audiences are cast as underserved. No, they're the audiences of the future. So to you Sarah, what do you make spread. What do you make of this widespread activism. And do you think that this could finally ultimately lead to systemic change and what are the implications. If it doesn't. So I am, I am so excited about the activism that I'm seeing from younger journalists and younger people in general. And, and I do think that, you know, at least on our airwaves. It's, there is an intergenerational component to this as well. It is, it are, you know, our listenership because it's a talk radio format skews older, and they are like older revolutionaries they are like all in and they're they're excited about the, the, the activism that they're saying in the streets by my younger people and. And so, you know, but I always think that there's, there's, there needs to always be an inside and an outside game. You know, so I applaud young journals and I think that young black journalists are following in the footsteps of kind of black media pioneers, you know, like the freedoms in 1827 was was started by Samuel Cornish and John B. Russell and these are black men in 1827 who were advocating for the dignity the humanity of black people this is before slavery was was ended and and so you know I think that for black journalists. It's this notion of not participating or or taking having being like compartmentalizing yourself so that you're not fully engaged in what's happening right. I think it's beautiful and it's necessary for these institutions to understand that these black reporters and reporters of color. First, they are people and human beings and they are struggling with the same racial disparities and with both within the institution within the organization but also in the larger world and so they are bringing their, their, their activism into a space that needs it needs it deeply and so in terms of the future. I think that, you know, if, if, if this is not a real reckoning and and and, you know, a movement not a moment as some people say if this is not used as as a an opportunity to, you know, just like COVID-19 everybody had to pivot everybody had to pivot you know like like you, if you weren't fully digital you had to get digital. This is the same kind of thing if if we are not looking at this in in in a way that allows us to reimagine and reconceptualize what journalism and and and I was going to say white led but I'm not even going to say that because I don't think it should be white led media anymore. But but it's it's also something that's going to take time. You know this this whole dismantling of this this system is not something that's going to happen overnight. And so I think that one of the things that I would say to the audience to to anyone who's listening is that, you know, it took us 400 years to get here. And so all of this desire and urgency to connect with black communities and communities of color. It's it's going to be a real long term process and investment and I hope that publishers and editors understand that that they cannot do anything that even, you know, has a whiff of inauthenticity and and a whiff of just trying to placate and just trying to survive this moment. So they can like get back to to to business as usual. Right. If they do that. I think the whole thing collapses. That's interesting. And to your point about folks bringing them their whole cells the thing that stood out to me as it related to the situation that was going on in Pittsburgh, was that you had Alexis Johnson who sent out this tweet with these photos and said oh look at this looting oh just kidding it's. It's a it's a concert and then Santiago who now has left the paper. One of the things they talked about was wanted to be at a place that love them and so there's what I'm interested in both of your perspectives on is that news organizations have not been great places to work, particularly mainstream news organizations for a long time they've been extremely toxic. There's been a lot of challenges obviously a lot of struggle a lot of just you could argue organizational PTSD that many across the sector, particularly in newspapers and others have had to navigate. And I wonder how that impacts the ability to change and evolve. So I'd be interested in your thoughts on that and then another thing speaks to Sarah what you were talking about which is bringing one's whole self. Right this notion of objectivity the reason that these folks were pulled off the story was because the paper asserted that they were then quote biased. But the reality is none of us are objective but yet it seems that in many journalistic circles this notion of objectivity is still something that is in the air. It's certainly what we were taught when we were coming up. So I'm curious as to most of your thoughts in terms of the environment in which journalists have to operate writ large. And if you think that the notion of objectivity should really be permanently eradicated and that this notion of fairness should much be focused on considerably more. I'm going to go to you and Sarah then I'd like to hear what you actually, you know, I, um, I've generally used terms like impartial fairness accuracy as the foundation of my journalism. They are similar to objectivity and I think the focus right now. I would almost go back to a term you used when we started talking of gaze right gaze is the measure of whether this is even fair or accurate right so if we're going to move away from objectivity. It doesn't mean that impartiality fairness and accuracy still gets us there because there's still the question of whose perspective are we judging this by. And for me it's really been an education of newsrooms as well as myself of looking at stories and our interviews and then our own management of our people through that lens right of what is possible what is missing. I think Sarah's framework of loving is beautiful. I mean I think I've never. I've never used that term when it comes to the folks on my team or the audience you know we talk a lot about compassion and journalism we talk a lot about bringing emotion to our work. But there's something about what Sarah just articulated that makes me think even before George Floyd's death we were contending with a crisis in journalism of a different type, which was Coronavirus. And the inability of the newsroom culture Martin that you're talking about to even manage around that right there are a lot of managers. The pressure of checking in with someone who sees them as their end I'll be all when it comes to human connection or community or I mean that's a that's a stressful experience right so certainly newsrooms I think have been having some conversations that lead into this idea of loving that I think that's a great deal from Sarah, the first time I've stolen an idea from Sarah she knows that. Because that that that really does connect also to is our goal to uplift our communities right is there a belief in our coverage our people our content like it's sort of all comes together. And then the last thing I'll say when I'd love to hear your Sarah's thoughts on this is also that I think our, we've had a preoccupation over the last few years of mistrust, and we've really allowed that conversation to be framed around the right. How can we get, you know, usually it's like Trump voters to trust media again. And I think one takeaway from this conversation and I Sarah said the same thing of there might never have been trust among audiences of color or black Americans of mainstream media right so if we don't have it on the right or the left, then we're really I mean that is a serious issue and that's something that we're going to have to work on way harder. Okay, Sarah I want to go to you and then we'll open it up. I'll throw it back to Lashar to give us some questions but Sarah we're really interested in your thoughts on this. So reframe the question for the question being so the notion of how do you think the gaze I'm just going to go right on in on this way. How do you think the gaze needs to change in order for news organizations to actually see and love their people in the communities that they need to serve. I mean I think that that it's, you know, it's each person who is covering a beat or something has to really do their own internal work. You know, I think that's where fault lines fault lines comes in to to help news organizations, diagnose, you know, what what needs to be worked on but this is really deeply individual work I would even say it's deeply spiritual work quite frankly, you know, not to get to like, like woo woo love and spirituality and all of that stuff. But honestly, I think that this, this moment that we are in, you know, Coronavirus like stopped us all in our dead in our tracks. You know, young people are, you know, our home from school they're, they're not employed because of either, you know, for whatever reason. And then we witnessed these horrific things on video, and they are, they have time, and they are on fire, and they just unleashed this movement that, and they're like, Oh, we are showing up every day, we're showing up every day because this thing needs to be dismantled now and so I am like deeply encouraged by that. But I think that that every person of every age needs to do some deep introspection about their gaze like who is in your network. You know, do you have black friends. Do you I mean black people I will tell you have a PhD, most black people have a PhD in how to navigate whiteness. You know, we're we're I can't tell you how many, how many panels how many, you know, boards how many everything I'm like either the only black person, or one of like two or three. And, and, and I am sophisticated enough to be able to navigate that but you flip that script. There, the white people are often not allowed, I'll say, given the opportunity, I'll say, to be in spaces where they have to navigate blackness, except as a media person as a as a journalist they might, they might parachute to North Philly or West Philly and, you know, cover something. But, but are they are they able to not just have a gaze, but have an understanding, have an experience have, you know, authentic connectivity with with with people who are not like them. So, and, and I am, I just deeply deeply appreciate the opportunity that I have to to run and and operate w u r d because it is really like a purple unicorn, you know, there are not hardly any black owned talk radio media organizations that are really for and by the people it's it's really an opportunity for black people to speak and be heard in their own voice every day about all of these issues. And that is cathartic. It is, it provides a space for people to celebrate to argue and to just be human and just be be beings. And so, so I think that we need more of that we need more of that in in spaces that are not just black spaces. Thank you for that. But sure, I want to throw it over to you so we can open it up to our audience. Yeah, so we have dozens of questions for you guys. So if we can keep, you know, the answers as sort of quick as we can, I'd love to get through at least a few of these. I just want to piggyback on sort of your last point, Sarah, there was a great question from Kansas for a minute on how can we better promote and build black media ownership, because I think that is really a key part of of this right we talk about gaze it shouldn't be this conversation shouldn't just be from the lens of working in a predominantly white news organization. Yeah, so I'll try and keep this short, you know, but but Candice thank you for that question and I have to say, when I got onto the board of the Lenfest Institute, that was my mantra for the entire time I was there ownership black ownership like let's because, you know, three years ago and I'm not saying I was the only one talking about this but three years ago, I swear, any conversation about diversity equity and inclusion was about how do we diversify white newsrooms how do we get more black and brown people into you know the inquire here the New York Times. And I was like, yo, you know, like, like, there's a whole other conversation that has to be had around empowering black ownership, because that really creates a kind of agency a kind of independence that you were not going to get in a predominantly white organization so how do you do it. One, I am like really, you know, pleased that some of the philanthropic the journalism philanthropic organizations, like are starting to, you know, provide resources to black and brown owned organizations like the Borealis Foundation just started the racial equity and journalism fund, which is specifically for media organizations that are owned or led by people of color. You know, the night Lenfest they are doing in Philadelphia there's a whole effort to empower the entire media ecosystem not just the white led organizations but to really look at what are the media entities that are serving communities of color that need to be supported. So I think that the journalism philanthropy entities are starting to really put some support behind it. I know that that Lashara and Jennifer has been incredibly supportive of me and WURD, and I'm like, I'm super grateful for that. I think that that the, and we're a for profit we are not a not for profit and so that was another thing I was like look if if if if journalism philanthropies or these different groups like Google News Initiative and, you know, these different entities if they really want to address this diversity issue, they have to stop only funding nonprofits, you know, because a lot of black media organizations especially the legacy ones are for profit. And so if if if that is like the firewall of that's going to be the, the, the writer, you know, the, the, you know, the thing that keeps you in or out then you're going to have the diversity that you're looking for and so I appreciate the fact that a lot of these philanthropic organizations have have kind of, you know, taken that off the table and recognize that for profit community, you know, media organizations that are doing the work serving the deserve that support from the philanthropic community as well as the nonprofit so that's one that's one thing that's encouraging I think the venture capital that whole route. It's hard as hell and I just think that you know, word is particularly fortunate because my father was very successful as an entrepreneur and was able to fund the W U R D for many years when it was losing lots of money until we were able to figure out a model that was able to put us into a space of a break even and profitability, but it you have to have runway, and a lot of black organizations do not have any runway sorry I took way too long to push our sorry. No, that's an important question. And so we've gotten a couple different versions of the same question. How do you keep diversity efforts from being cosmetic. And what are some real tangible strategies that you guys have found or seen at works and news organizations that they go from that cosmetic change to real systemic change. And I can't stress enough the leadership and the change I've been able to be most effective at is when I'm not the only one at the table. Right. And so my own hiring of leaders who report into me as well as those who are above me there's incentive. I think for the organization for those structures to actually be diverse so for those of you who are working on plans for diversity and hiring it needs to be at all levels, not just your entry and not just at the top right I think it's also just laterally. Do we have a team with only one black staffer. Is it possible for us to embrace the whole self of someone if they're the only one and not empowered to speak right so I think I think that's one. And I think is to, in some ways the segues from the last question of not reinventing the wheel when there are people who've been doing this work for decades if not hundreds of years right. You know I was I was telling Sarah before we started that last week there was a trend of supporting black owned businesses, and there was the parallel trend of diversity and in white newsrooms which she just mentioned, and I was like, I think I'm a member of WURD, which I thought I already was but I wasn't and so we can support organizations like Sarah's that have been doing this forever, right. And it's a way for us not to kind of be like the Johnny come out lately of, you know, race coverage by partnering with these organizations I would also see the last point I'll just make on local right so there's been a real big push around local news, and I'm finding, you know, in my own neighborhood of Jackson Heights in York City, the Latino press the Bangladeshi press have been also here for decades doing a great job covering my neighborhood and that is just absent in all of the discussions around what we miss, because the we in that sentence is is clearly not Bangladesh is in Latinos right so I think that's another thing to look at. Can I just add one thing to things I think other things to make things to make sure it's not cosmetic. I think compensation should be connected to diversity outcomes, you know people should you know when you tie people's money to this stuff, it has a whole different kind of resonance and I think that the whole thing if you don't measure it doesn't matter. There has to be metrics built into these organizations in order for there to be a measurement of success and progress and the third thing I would say is, you know media companies I know a lot of newsrooms are strapped financially but you know they have professional services they have catering they have event services there's a lot of money that is spent in these media organizations, and they should look at their diversity and I think that making sure that money that is being spent is being spent with black and brown organizations is also an important part of the you know going beyond kind of window dressing. And the jar I'd ask just add one point to that which is, it can't be seen as just a nice to have. You have to tether the growth and sustainability of these institutions to these audiences that they have not served. And to also understand that you cannot show up with a bouquet of roses, after decades and decades of ignoring any racer and mischaracterization and thinking that they are going to embrace you. You have to ask yourself and say, and I might my co executive director Evelyn Sue said this so well which is say, you need to say to these folks we want you to be our customer. And if when someone when someone when you want someone to be your customer there is a whole series of steps that you take an approach that you take to make that so. And I just think that news organizations need to think that way in order to build those relationships. One final question, looking at the time, you know, we've had a couple people in the Q amp a ask about the role of journals and education. You know what role can J schools play in the dismantling. And what can they be doing differently. No, no, I was just going to say curriculum that they have to begin to infuse the curriculum of this. And I think the good thing is that you have young folks who care deeply about this already in their midst right they're already considerably sophisticated and there's a level of expectation that folks are going to be more culturally competent than they are. And when they often step in the news organizations they're like why is this conversation still happening this way. So I think they're, but that being said the level of geographic segregation that has occurred has led to many students showing up to diverse environments that for the first time or stepping into very homogenous places for the very first time and. So colleges and universities need to infuse this and themselves because they themselves are institutions of racism right and there's so many micro aggressions that occur. So that for instance USC Annenberg school has infused fault lines in the curriculum so I think approaching really taking a social justice lens to their journalistic curriculum and how do those two come together can be a great way to start. Yeah, and I also think that. And this is in the newsroom as well like who are we holding up as experts who are we holding up as you know models of success that journalism students should be emulating it should be learning from and so if you never hear about a black media outlet or you never see a black journalist who are doing exceptional work and or you hear maybe it's it's one thing but how like really dissecting the entire curriculum and looking at every component of it, making sure that there is, you know, authentic representation of diverse experiences and mindsets and cultures, all the way through, not just oh if you take this particular course you're going to you're going to get it, but everybody else misses it. I would just say two quick things one, there is a pipeline of failed white male media executives directly to teach journalism schools and I think we have I really I really think that that is a part of the problem. The second thing I would say is that much of the both sides ism that we've discussed over the last few weeks of, I'll make this phone call and I'll make this phone call and I'm good. That is also kind of traditionally taught in journalism school. Most of us in newsrooms know that it's nuanced that makes something of story right, we wouldn't be writing about it if it wasn't nuanced and so I think that ability to teach that it's not two sides is is a fundamental challenge to the way J schools operate right now, but I would love to see what they come out with if they kind of, you know switch up formats in that regard. I will just put this one final question. What role could platforms play in fostering equity and diversity and journalism and helping to dismantle these systems of racism. You mean platforms like Facebook and good. Well, first of all, okay, and this is all I'm going to say diversify your damn staff and leadership platforms. Let's start there. Excuse me. I told you would be a lively discussion. I'm trying. I'm thinking. Well, I mean, that's the thing that's the exact same thing I was thinking, which is that I mean, if the organization if the tech companies don't reflect the massive diversity of their users, you know, what they are doing, how they're approaching the creation of it, you know, bad data in bad data out. So I think it's, they have a similar problem as news organizations, right because they are lacking diversity. And as a result of that, the products in which they are creating and the way they are interfacing with community casting community are very problematic so I think the place to start is exactly where Sarah said, and, and understanding that it is essential for news organizations and platforms to be working together collectively, and that's begun to happen with some of the overtures that these institutions have made to supporting the institution that they utilize so much of the content but in many respects, you know, I don't want to sort of poke fingers at the at the platforms because to a great degree I look at news organizations as being. That fault for the position that we are in lack of innovation unwillingness to change and embrace technology has put us in a position where we are in many ways coming to these platforms in a way that we really shouldn't have had to and that's unfortunate. I think I'm going to do a wish list for the major ones Google the SEO algorithm as you might imagine works in CNN's favor. I would like us to reward depth and community right and I think that's something that just from an SEO perspective Google should be able to work on Facebook I would actually reiterate what I said about J schools the embrace of nuance right Facebook, very much as polarizing and who it targets and the content it targets, and the reality of issues and audiences being way more complicated than they're giving us credit for. And then the last Twitter protect women and people of color on your platform please. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank you Martin, Mitra and Sarah for this this great conversation. You have done so much to lift up the cause of equity and diversity and journalism and as we've heard today there's still a lot of work that needs to continue. We appreciate you are. Thank you. Thank you. So everyone please join us at the same time, a next week, when in partnership with the online news association my colleague Paul Chung will be joined by any web and Sam music to discuss shifting technology trends in the age of COVID-19. Thank you so much for tuning in.