 Before I sit down and turn my back to you What we're going to do now is have not quite a Greek chorus But a little bit of a sounding board reality check because we've got three people here who've had huge experience and still have huge experience in Development in the development industry if I can use that word To still acting as ambassadors and one who is now closer to the policy world But has also been a practitioner so what they're going to be doing is looking at some of the stuff That's been said so far through their lens, and I also will be coming to a couple of people in the front row To get some of their stories that are Related and also ask you all to take part so this will start out with a bit of a Three-way interview and then develop into a sort of controlled free-for-all. I hope Controlled okay, Karin if I could start with you So so well love let me say that I'm I'm really impressed by what we have heard and I think this kind of Independent research is extremely important for donors to listen to because donors have a tendency sometimes to Formulate both the question and the answer because they know a lot But by putting The the role of formulating the questions and maybe not providing the answers but evidence And I think this is extremely important. So this is one media message to donors and and The second one on donor and I'm talking now as an old Hand at CDI was working for Cedar for 30 years before joining the Nordic Africa Institute Is that it's not one donor there are very many donors in one country So at the country level, it's not just about what one donor can do It's about what can donors do together with the government and with private sector with civil society There are so many actors and we have to realize this not to forget Academia because academia is also extremely important and the cooperation between academia I have come to to realize is maybe it provides this evidence-based Information which we need and I think also working together in my case then with researchers in Africa is extremely important Working with the bank working with other research institutes in Africa Helps us to formulate the right questions and hopefully inform also donors, but donors must take time to Inform themselves, okay I just want to put you on the hot seat as opposed to just the speaking seat for a moment because you mentioned the fact that there are So many actors and let's just focus now on jobs and you folk you mentioned that donors often ask the questions But provide their own answers and that there are so many of them and God years ago. I was working on something with the whole Paris getting everybody on the same page Which still is not quite a reality So how much can you use results like we're hearing today to actually get donors? To kind of work if not always in tandem, but at least going in the same direction well First of all by sharing the information between themselves, but also by sharing information with a donor I mean the recipient governments I think this is extremely important not to sit here But to be there and to discuss and be informed by the research and as I said to share it I think this is extremely important Morton you're there. I mean you're here now, but you're usually in Bolivia Yeah, no, I agree very much with Karen and I also think we should Get on the same page. Maybe we should get on the John page You've been practicing No, I I Think that we I we should definitely understand where we are we should definitely Have very very close dialogue with the partners We should also I realized that At times what it's also important is that the governments that we're working with also have access to to knowledge Sometimes ideology also plays in We also know economists often do not really agree on everything What we're trying to work on of course and what with what the research also is trying to do of course is to try and find Find the evidence which is the facts and come up with you know well documented recommendations But we work we should work with many different Partners we work with government. We should also work with the private sector. We should also work with the civil society And I think we we try to do that, but we should You know where we are. Yeah, but coming back to that vote The percentage of the people in this room who actually think That age should go through the private sector was quite a bit smaller than those who think you should work through governments or NGOs What's no because you've in discussions. We've had you pointed out that often, you know, that is a Relationship that's difficult to build because there's distrust on all sides and it's kind of key to actually get it moving forward in the right way How do you do that? Well, I mean if we take Bolivia We we had the Evo Morales coming into government with the social movements basically a whole new set of people Compared to the old elite to the old formal sector and always there's a great deal of lack of confidence in the old elite The old elite is much better educated It also means that you are bringing in people into government with a lot less education a lot less experience a lot less Exposure to to also research and the world as such so in such a Situation of course you you have to you have to try and dialogue I mean that you have to just try and engage even though at times you you don't really Find that what is What what the policy they're making used you think it you might think it's wrong But even so I think it's important for us to engage is it does it actually work better because he was talking a little earlier about The I mean this is a very small scale. I know but the Bolivian knitwear Cooperative I'm not sure what we'd call it but where you can actually show because you can understand why there's some Skepticism towards the private sector and the old model amongst those who are now in government in Bolivia They've been excluded for so long But is one way to actually get them more on board to show them projects, which actually function I think in Bolivia the it was very difficult to work on the on sort of the business environment to get the Confidence with the old formal sector so the investment level is very low and private index Investment level is very low in Bolivia what you register in the formal sector It's less than 10% of GDP in a situation where you have growth rates of four to six percent So it's extremely low the investment rate, but probably the government's focus is more on the informal economy So I'm sure if you did some research on the informal economy That's sort of the the sense you get when you walk around is that the informal economy is really growing so you have the whole ocean which are not measuring that might be growing and where People are getting getting better off. We see it Bolivia in contrast to Africa You have seen a significant fall in in the poverty rate Extreme poverty have fallen, you know within a very few a little time period five ten years, maybe ten percent percentage points So I think so that's an indication that the government is focusing on the informal economy Even though it's anti neoliberal it's actually focusing on the economy which is informal Which is I guess completely neoliberal because there's no government regulation So it's also so I invite you also come to Bolivia and study this these paradoxes Okay, and I think we'll get into it. We've got definitely some some comments coming later on on this But Johnny not just through Tanzania and eyes, but also Mozambique because you spent a lot of time in Africa What's your take so far on the day? Well first of all, I think this is extremely useful and I like to say thank you I mean, this is this is very good when we put employment and youth on top of our Africa strategy in 2006 It was to engage people like this to try to focus on these issues and I think it's been a Mean a little bit slow in coming, but now it's coming and it's giving us guidance and these kinds of discussions are extremely useful I had a chance to work very closely with with these and with with fins up in Mozambique to give me almost daily guidance And it is necessary to have this kind of knowledge when we take Tough decisions sometimes decisions that are means a lot to a lot of people's lives. So On on that one. Yes. Okay, then how to apply it and what we do Is it's maybe a more difficult one? Okay, I don't stop because what you're gonna need to do is give us good warning of which picture you want to see When you want to see pictures just warning you so sorry to interrupt you full flow But go ahead more difficult decide what to do. Yeah, but first of all, I think that's one thing that isn't difficult and show some nurses Okay, see the nurses picture, please There is still a very large part of the jobs that aid is going to finance that will be in the public sector And I don't see the nurses picture come out there. They are you can take the box of us out of there Okay, so the nurses why are they important because there is no way that you can text finance What this cost? from a $500 per capita country When you need at least $60 for health per capita and at least $60 for education per capita and you are at 500 Then you can text your population 25% and pay for these two things only and then there'll be nothing left So we will still have to do something in that of course We need to have private sector coming on to bring up on growth and things, but for some times these jobs are very important and There are comparisons to the sort of Scandinavian model I was lucky enough to get from the structural change work that Justin Lee is doing Sam. Don't help me get some of the figures so what is Tanzania in terms of income level in Denmark. It's the early 1800s We had no tax finance social sector in Denmark We had a guy called comfy starting to run around and think about educating our people So financing this from taxes is very very difficult from this income level So there's this part of the job still have to be there. So not forgetting There's a long way to the Millennium Development goal is basically for some countries Then I'd like to see maybe some beekeepers Okay, can I see the beekeeper picture, please and I think there's a graph to it. We have yes There we go now. Yeah. Yeah, these people are beekeepers and they they know I'm a from a long family of Of beekeepers in Denmark. So they let me taste their honey. It's very good The the point here is that this is the kind of job to see the next picture So being an ambassador is not all hard work You can also eat honey But when these people are there and they are in the poor jobs so to say so they They have a forest and actually that in that I need a project in the beginning was just to ask them not to chop it All down to charcoal and all that so how to invest in in some other income-generating activities And they have been hugely successful in 13 forest areas in Tanzania In producing honey. So you have 40 people Producing 250 liters of honey with very little input like hundred thousand dollars for 13 forests Now they produce 250 liters of honey and it's $10 per liter just down the corner That's a huge impact on their daily lives and you can employ much more people in that that's productivity increase in Traditional family agriculture Okay, we'll get to the other bits a little later I want to come back to Karen because the informal economy has been mentioned a number of times and Karen One of the things that you had pointed out to me is that too often governments actually do not support the informal economy They actually hassle them. Can you? Elaborate on that a little bit. Well, yeah, I think I mean when we are talking about let's start with the private sector We think about private sector as if it were wage employment you go to an office You do this you do that you go home in the evening But private sector the major or the larger private sector at least in Africa is Agriculture and the informal sector you are your own Entrepreneurs so to say we have heard that and the issue is also as we heard to get them Maybe sometimes out of jobs, but also to increase productivity And I think the example Johnny was given here by the the honey is a very good example of agriculture and I'm referring to There are many reports on Africa this year focusing on employment the development Bank Africa Development Bank has one another one was published by the Economic Commission for Africa together with the African Union in Addis and They are also putting maybe not in the same But the same issues is on their agenda as John here said but they put agriculture on top Maybe the first one you put there was more a means. How do you how do you manage your natural resource income? But agriculture is extremely important to increase productivity not just for employment purposes but also for food security and environmental purposes, I mean we know that Africa will be hardly hit by by climate change so and Africa is already Starting to move into Areas which are very very vulnerable from an agricultural point of view, but we also know that there is a demographic Factor Africa's population will double in 40 years. They need food. So This is about the informal sector the informal sector is Producing things for the consumers and those who are employed they can also consume So I think we have to look at these two factors you know in a more coexistence between consumer and Producer and the informal sector has so far been the major sort of binding Links between these but I productivity needs to increase so we need to invest and create Better conditions not hassle those who are street vendors one day I mean take a woman for example. She's producing Tomatoes she's an agriculture in that sense then the next day she goes selling her tomatoes in the street But in many cases she's being hate You know chased away from the street because police doesn't want to see these kind of people in the street Particularly when you have World Cup in football or any other things going on Then they you know send them out of the city Okay, if I could just go back to Gary fields for a moment because Gary you have another story. We didn't tell earlier of Masa B. C. I'm sorry if I'm misprint. Yeah Now she was actually trying to make a living selling stuff on the street and got stopped. So what was her story? craft vendor in Durban, South Africa she rented a An Oceanside stall from somebody that had a permit to do that and the police came one day and asked for her identification card which she produced and The license which she produced but they weren't in the same name. So they said you have to leave but within 24 hours or we're gonna confiscate confiscate everything you have and so I was at a policy briefing not too long later and The officials that were responsible for these things were there. They they said they were trying to protect People like us. They said pointing to the Westerners in the audience Against people like them pointing to the Africans in the audience and I just couldn't take that and I said, you know, these people are trying to earn a livelihood and How are they gonna earn a livelihood if you don't allow them to sell to sell things? and it's it's precisely from looking at this problem as Poor people are trying to earn a livelihood They need to do some kind of work and what is the point of trying to stop them from doing this kind of thing? I think your story is right on Okay that this doesn't actually come into One of the issues because later on we've got we've got some people in the front row from the labor movement here and the Federation of small and and medium-sized Danish Enterprises and they've got just some interesting stories to tell and and also eye-opener's if for those of you who think that labor and Business don't get along But I'll come to you guys later first of all Morton I mean, how does this play into what you're seeing not just in Bolivia because your experience in Africa is pretty huge too Well, I'd like to say something. Yeah, okay Just in in in in Bolivia you find the agriculture the productivity and agriculture very low It's actually a half of what you see in the neighboring countries. So obviously there you have, you know an opportunity We're working with with the Minister of Agriculture to try and Design interventions that will help the small-scale farmers like the beekeepers like the quinoa farmers in Bolivia Who are living in the Alti plano and and are the poorest of the the poor in the countryside very harsh conditions They only have their Yama and they have their quinoa Of course the quinoa is is is very healthy. Everybody wants to buy it. So the demand has gone up The prices have gone up so we've been together with the Ministry of Agriculture trying to work with the actors on the ground in the in the farming areas getting their associations together Helping them getting the certificate to export organically helping them Looking into the problem of of credit so that which would allow them to stall their crops for a few months So that they could take advantage of a higher price So I think the it this this this type of infant intervention takes time often You find that the beekeeper women, you know You help them solve one problem together with the Ministry to where you also involve the the local Knowledge which exists in the area there will always be somebody who knows something about beekeeping who would be able to Who will be willing to say sell some of the services? But this often is a process which take a long time You don't just give them money for one-time investment because you need to have the access to the knowledge You need to have the access to the market. You need to have the access to the finance You need to know what are the requirements of the market you need to transport it so there are a lot of things that a small-scale business Needs to take care of before you can actually succeed and maybe you need to have this type of assistance Not just one time not just two years Maybe for a number of years before you sort of get on a plateau where you can take off and and your businesses Let's say sustainable. Okay, I'm Johnny one minute, but before I want to just take a step back for a moment and ebe Because so much of the economy around that in the developing world is informal. How difficult was it? both for donor countries, but also in your negotiations with recipient countries to actually focus on projects which work with the develop with with the informal sector was Was there a barrier? That had to be overcome in order to actually say look we have to be able to help these people because by helping them They will become part of the formal sector. I'm just curious if that was a Hurtle well, there was originally a barrier in Actually getting agreement on working with the private sector starts both the informal and the formal sector from governments who clearly show some money Disappearing that they otherwise would have had into the government coffers. So it's very important. It was a very It was a very important discussion I think we in most cases managed to to convince also because and that's also what come What's coming out of the world development report that you need to address things at different levels? So we had a good dialogue with Most of the governments we work with saying we will also like to help you in Creating the what we call the enabling environment creating the conditions that you actually can create is So so so the private sector can create Jobs you also need to focus on We have this discussion of the informal and the formal and I agree that you shouldn't just you know say that it Then we should Focus on on the formal in the first one I think we should vote on what kind of incentives could you put into place for small self-employed to actually So to speak integrate into the formal sector thereby also Providing the tax base for the government and so on in the long run So there are a lot of issues there and and some of these you can address by vocational training You can address by legislation in Tanzania. We worked in establishing Commercial court so you can also attract investments in that respect Cannot just make another comment when actually I think that the question before was wrong You cannot say it's either government or private sector or civil society. It's of course all of them And then I would like to also Hey, you know, I'm a journalist originally it's got to be black or white. Give me a break I'm full of respect for journalists Retired Now I think there's one element missing here I can think when I heard current seven for donors to do so-and-so and so One of the first questions we had on the screens. I think there was a huge majority pointing to governance issues as Some of the main challenges you have to address and that's I think we need to get our partner governments into the picture as well This is not just a question of what donors can agree to or not. This is, you know, we we would like to align with local Priorities and and and and take it from there. So I think that's that's an angle We need to have into this question as well And we are happy to share all the findings from this program with all our partners all over the world In order for all governments to actually use it as based for the policy decisions Okay coming back down because Johnny ebid mentioned what was going on in Tanzania And I know I stopped you off in mid-flow from production But can you pick up again or continue on as you wish? I'd like to show a picture of two cornfields. Could we have the cornfield pictures, please? Yeah, there we go. Yeah, I think this is pretty much what we have heard about agriculture Productive there's no climatic reason or anything else for these two fields to be looking So much apart. So basically the climate's the same in both places now. Can you guess which one is in Denmark? So 800 kilo of maize per hectare is not going to create rural wealth And again, if we compare to Denmark, I know you can't do that all the time but there are two very interesting features happening and Also said this to provoke a little bit comment from from the unions here When we started to create rural wealth in Denmark shortly after we settled our issues with Napoleon and other Then we started to really build rural wealth and By including in increased productivity and people got money to spend by them they started to build things Themselves so the monopoly of the union city-based guilds la owner Was broken because there was money in the rural areas and all of a sudden you had 40 percent of people actually Doing this kind of work living in the rural areas So there was a sort of a demand driven breakdown of some structures in the labor market that had existed for very long When I go around Tanzania, I suddenly in a very poor village. I see a sign was that one. I'm mango So it means mr. Dore So this is the carpenter Now some people have money to ask somebody to build them at all They're creating enough wealth to want a door problem is which is different from Denmark and one of the questions I have to Mean this whole issue of trends of putting people in other sectors where productivity is higher Is that this guy in Tanzania will very soon face very stiff challenge from an aluminium door imported from China? Just down the market, so he'll no longer be building this wooden door that sort of help us Create new kind of jobs when we were shedding the low productivity agriculture jobs into higher productivity Manufacturing we didn't have Chinese stores of very thin alloy Competing with our sort of crushments and our production. So that's one question Okay But is the argument that you should basically first of all think not just of moving people out of agriculture sideways more or less into Manufacturing, but that you should first of all give them the chance to make the fields transform from one to the other so that they can actually earn money on the farm and Or is it that you just when they do go you have to be a little more careful of How the transformation takes place? I mean, well, who do you want to ask your question to and it'd have to be one to start? All right We can't have the whole panel Gary, but I want to add another one One question at a time Gary I Think you raised a very important point which is talking about productivity What what's the definition of productivity to be used in this context? And if you think about productivity per employed output per employed labor hour That's not the right metric to be using when there are so many labor hours that want to be more fully employed That looking at how much output you get per hectare of land to take your last Photograph is much more meaningful. They would also raise a question about what would be an appropriate policy for allowing in aluminum doors from China and This is a question about what is best in terms of reducing poverty of the people of Tanzania And once one starts asking those questions one gets very different answers from then one gets by using standard metrics Okay, Gary just one memory of all of us I know that there's a certain amount of talking back and forth, but let us not forget that we have people out there So we want to include them even though I'm turning my back to them But that's because I have to interview folks here, but just when we can to remember so Does your second question Johnny? It relates a bit to how we finance these things because we also wanted to help People move into other areas and we heard today that micro credit and finance could be one of the solutions Now we are very terrified still in in in government than either to distort the market and that's why this whole Discussion arose about 15 percent and who's who's then to get 15 percent? I've shoveled out money to fishers in in Tanzania Cheap loans it ended up everybody being a fish especially people who moved out from the army So it's very difficult to compartmentalize these things. So you cannot create these sort of segments and who then do you want to subsidize but The need actually predated all this By investing in a bank in the 90s. We have a picture of the bank so surprised And that's sort of the then I'll stop the anecdotal when I was a very very young man I started working as an economist for the needle and one of the first things somebody told me to do By 100 Land Rovers by 100 Avery weighing scales and by 100 Thompson saves So I said what are we going to do with this? Just send it to Tanzania and we'll tell you so I did this and I went to Tanzania We took the Avery weighing scales and bolted them to the floors of the Land Rover We gave them an Avery weighing scale, which is one of these old-fashioned weighing scales that you use with the lid and A guy with a shotgun and then we drove into the villages with loads of Tanzania shillings Because peasants had stopped weighing off their produce to this bank Because first of all they used Russian or Chinese weights where you couldn't really see what was happening So they thought they were cheated and the checks that bank wrote were absolutely useless. So they wanted cash shillingy So that's why we needed to go with with saves and shotguns it went completely broke and We helped restructure somebody in the need of not me, but other clever people they invested eight million dollars in this bank in in the mid 90s to help restructure it and I now have a daunting task of selling a 30% share post which is at least 80 million dollars worth and It's 1,500 jobs just in the bank So not what the bank did for other people, but just jobs created in the bank itself So that's another point of risk-willing capital. Maybe my Predecessors were very risk-willing or stupid. I don't know what but they did something very good for Tanzania And this is the second largest bank of Tanzania today. Thank you very much Oh Where do I go from this? I wanted actually to to talk a little bit about or to get you all to talk a little bit more about the informal economy and the cooperation of International organizations with that and and I think what I'm just going to briefly do because You had mentioned in your first notes the problems that people have in the informal economy And obviously it's a huge issue and we can't forget how many people are actually employed there so what I was really interested in is Darianne Rieber from from Danita who's been a great help to me, but put me in touch with Jorgen Asens who's with the Danish labor movement and Jorgen then put me in touch with Jens Kvarning who is with the Danish Federation of small and medium-sized businesses and I was quite surprised to find that they actually are working together to But both help formalize and do some work. I'll let them tell tell the story briefly, of course, and I'll start with you Jorgen and then if you could pass it on to Jens It should be on Yeah, let me start just with a brief story It'll be a brief story Sorry from West Africa from Sierra Leone where I just came back and they have just decided in the Labor Congress in Sierra Leone that they would accept to get members from the so-called informed economy They made that decision and changed their constitution earlier this year And as of today yesterday actually they now have 400,000 affiliated members from the informed economy and They experience that people are joining the union because of basically they believe that the union can Help them protect their rights Avoid harassment, I should say But also help them to achieve some social security and thirdly also to create some more decent employment decent jobs for them And to that end we have tied out they have tied in with the Danish labor unions and also with the Danish Federation of Small and medium scale and whatever employers. Yeah Where Jens is representing to try to get us to help them to initiate some training programs some Business development programs, which would help them to For some of their members who want to become Once a real employers or entrepreneurs to develop their skills in the way So they can also generate new and more decent employment So that's the whole and we have been granted some funds from Danita and so on so log it for that Okay, if you could pass over to Jens, I mean Jens You were quite excited about the kind of cooperation that is going on at an artisanal level and then further up And the skills that are being learned and we're going to hear more from Kay and Tetsushi this afternoon about this This need but you know I was to be honest quite surprised even though this is Denmark To find that Labor and employers were working together and sorry I miss misnamed your Federation So how did it how did it start working with you? well, we started having a long experience with the formal sector via the day Danita program business to business program where we mainly assisted Companies in developing countries by training them with Danish companies in similar businesses and that from my opinion has worked very well over 20 years and But still we especially in Africa. It didn't work as well as in Asia and in Latin America So what we and one of the reasons for that was that it was a very small Population of companies you had in the formal sector in Africa. So we saw a need for developing informal enterprises Because if you didn't add new companies to the formal sector, you would not be able to make this kind of programs so and then we were in close contact with the Ulan secret I ate it which is the unions Corporation organization here and they had the This idea of bringing company know some of the unemployed into work by Training programs. Yes I'm actually their own companies in the informal sector So this has been a way to break the wall because we couldn't really manage to get into the informal sector but thanks to The unions who had access to these people who needed jobs in the informal sector we could certainly move and What we're actually doing is to teach people to work smart rather than hard Not that they don't continue to work hard, but at least they can get a better outcome from working hard great Thank you very much No, you could well it literally 30 seconds. It's just one thing is to say I think the experience here We have is to we would like social partners We are representing them to get much more involved and we're actually a little Puzzled once in a while that there's not not many more efforts to involve the labor market Yeah partners into job creation Well, let's hope that this is um in a way We're doing a little matchmaking and we'll end up with some new partnerships now the three of you I'm gonna throw this open to the floor But I'm sure there were things that you wanted to say which I haven't given you a chance So I'm gonna briefly say Karen Was there something else that you wanted to throw in before we start taking questions from everybody? Well, yeah, I think it's it is important also to discuss. I mean the the obstacles which exists today and And I think one major obstacle for small Enterprises for the informal sector and for Manufacturing at large and including agriculture is the lack of infrastructural investments And I think that I remember 20 years ago when I worked with Tanzania The Swedish IKEA, which may be known to you try to buy Goods from Tanzania cotton towels, but also pine things. I don't exactly remember what it was, but It stopped because of lack of energy energy was so irregular So the producers could not deliver according to the plan, which I case very very Strict on strict on so I think that that's another issue where donors also could come in And the world Bank in particular Morton Well, I think the issue of of of transformation structural transformation of economies where you Let's say an agricultural country like Tanzania or Bolivia where productivity is very low You need to raise it, but you also at the same time need to create Decent jobs in other other areas you have a big informal economy where a lot of people work as street vendors and Salesmen trying to make a living living. That's where the people are, but you somehow so so I mean what type of what type of Intervention what type of policies can you design one to identify, you know Whether you should invest more in getting the informal economy the street vendors or the beak be producers try and improve their Productivity and get them into the into the marketplace and to what extent you should Focus more on the more formal economy where you'll find in Ghana or in Bolivia you have the the mining modern mining sector where productivity is Hundred times more than You find in the informal economy, but the jobs are very low But you you need to focus this this transformation. I think how to identify the The the the Intervention policies just yet to come back to that because you mentioned the the the mining industry and the extractive industries And it seems that as an outsider one sees it all too often when there is a mining or extractive industry or some sort of natural resource Not only the natural resources, but a lot of the profits seem to go offshore And we always focus on the governance in the countries where the stuff is being mined We rarely focus on the governance of the actual companies that are coming in But you know, how do you then convince governments that the profits from these things really need to be reinvested? And it's been mentioned already today and John you focused on it as well that you start to build Kind of the skills so that you can reinvest and start those alternative modes of growth I think Bolivia is a country that depends very much on the for its exports and for its GDP also on gas and on minerals More than 80% of its export is gas and minerals About half of the GDP on these two sectors, but they only provide Between two and three percent of all the jobs. So obviously how you spend the the the revenues Fortunately so far in Bolivia at least a lot of this has been going into the social sector investment But also in infrastructure investment. So distribution which are and distributional Transfer income transfers to to elderly to school children and so on And there are plans of course also as in most of these countries to also set up some kind of Sovereign fund which can you know ensure a better use of of the resources Johnny Yeah, I like the discussion about the investment in infrastructure and and natural resources when When these nurses that we just saw before they were very successful In they kept all the children alive from the 80s This is why africa now has a huge challenge with youth and employment in europe We always made sure that there was enough war and disease around to not get this problem But now africa has it And it's going to be very very difficult to create that many jobs But one of the prerequisite I think is if if the farmers can grow Enough and raise productivity on the land It will still be a huge challenge to get it somewhere to where people can buy it So the post harvest losses and the prices and all these things are an enormous problem And one of the reasons is that there is such a poor infrastructure in africa, which is partly due to No investment for 20 years, but also partly due to the fact that it has not been I mean some of the donors who used to finance this have been pulling out of that sector and we Including danita but also world bank and others and I think there is a very good case for investing the kind of seed money that donors can provide and then challenge the government or and Encourage them to put some of the money from the infrastructure from from the from the natural resources into infrastructure So we can actually get this produce moving around in africa and to export and raise farm gate prices Okay, well you you bring me up this whole concept of infrastructure and investment henrik garver You've got a story here to tell about working on a highway and also it created jobs But the if you could focus a little bit on the highway and the need for it and then the jobs And then we will move on again to the audience right But I think I think there are a lot of important issues here The the case that I bring along is from one of my member firms kovie consultants who who worked on The majority of part of the parts of the 10 same highway linking lusaka to dar es Salaam And I think there are more key issues really if you look at it first of all you get this infrastructure investment which as John focused on Creates who paid for who paid for it In partly paid through through foreign aid so so that's Very good investment in infrastructure And what we see is that in part you get International consultants bringing in international knowledge, but they build up local companies local professional service firms They also actually So they have a local subsidiary They they also use additional local companies surveyors water experts and so on I mean basically Through some of these infrastructure investments you get a local Professional service economy which is this structural change that that John is looking for and actually also That creates a better economy if we look at the actual road We have a road which is designed so that the street vendors can actually Sell things along the road without blocking traffic. We get more less Traffic accidents and so on so we get a lot of benefits in addition to creating a stronger formal economy for the private sector and this These private sector firms then Works for other private companies and not just for development agencies and so on so plus better trade between Zambia and Tanzania Tanzania because John was mentioning that issue And I know a baby it's dear to his heart that you actually get those connections working So really the point of this infrastructure, but works if it's done with wind. Thank you very much