 So welcome everybody. This is a labor notes webinar, building a caucus and transforming your union. Really excited for the panelists that we have tonight in the conversation that we're going to have that they will have with each other and hopefully with you as well. My name is Barbara Madaloni, and I am on staff at labor notes, and a lot of the work that I do in labor notes is with K 12 and higher education caucuses. So this is something close to my heart and I actually come out of a caucus in the Massachusetts teachers Association called educators for democratic union. Please, while I'm doing the introductions, introduce yourselves in chat, say who you are where you are, and what union you're with so we can see who's with us tonight for our conversation. This is being recorded as you heard and will be available on Facebook, and in social media for labor notes, probably sometime tomorrow. So I just wanted to say a few things about labor notes for those of you who are hopping on and maybe don't know labor notes is a 42 year old project that is committed in those 42 years to supporting the development of democratic rank and file militant unions. And we do that by raising up the voices of rank and file union members of leaders who support rank and file union development in our magazine and our social media. And we go through trainings and webinars like this where we are our premises that we learn from and with each other as union members and as workers, how to build more democratic rank and file unions and our, and our grounding premise there is that we bring democracy to our unions, and we bring democracy to our workplaces that we, that is the key to actually building the world that we want and winning the world that we all need. But it starts in many, many times with a few people gathering to say you know what unions are important places to do the work that we need to do to build a better world. This union isn't working. So what are we going to do about that. How are we going to make this a union that that brings democracy and justice for the workers and for the broader community. And oftentimes that takes the form of a caucus. So we're here tonight to find out about how we might begin to do that. We're going to hear from union members who are have fledgling caucuses, maybe caucuses that are just just beginning. And we are going to hear from union members whose caucus after more than 20 year fight is just able to really be a critical part of winning new leadership in the teamsters and everything in between. So that's what we're going to be doing tonight. I am going to ask, we're going to spend the first part of the evening, asking some questions and with the panelists and conversation with each other. And then I will invite you to ask questions as well. If you have a question if you could put it in the Q&A, it makes it easier for me to read than the chat. Just, I can see it a little bit more clearly. And I think with that, I'm going to ask the panelists to just introduce themselves, give us a tiny little bit of the context in which they're doing their work, and then we'll go back to some of the bigger questions. So Shoshana, you're my upper left. So I'll start with you. You're muted. Wow, I'm honored. Thank you Barbara. Well, I'm loving all of the just checking in in the chat. It's so great to see so many folks from all over the place so much solidarity and love out here. It's good to be in good company with my other panelists. So really an honor to be on this platform. My name is Shoshana Brown. I am here located in Washington Heights, New York City, Lenape territory, and I am a school social worker. I work in a high school and social work delegate in the United Federation of Teachers, the largest teachers local in the United States. And I'm also a steering members my second year on our steering committee of more, which is the movement of rank and file educators, our rank and file social justice dissident caucus here in New York City. Awesome. Thank you Shoshana. Welcome Andrea. I'm also very proud to be here with everybody tonight. I am Andrea Malarkey, I use they and she pronouns. I am a rank and file librarian in Berkeley, California, which is a lonely, at least on a lonely territory. And I'm a member of SCIU local 10 to one. And I am part of, as Barbara was alluding to what may be called a proto caucus even. I am part of a thing that I would not have even called a caucus until this panel invitation came to me and I'm not really building a caucus and then I thought, Oh, yes, actually that's exactly what I'm doing. So we don't have a name, but we do our work. Most of my work comes out of my chapter and organizing within my chapter and out of our political program which is a pretty strange place for a caucus to begin but we begin where we are and that's where I was so I look forward to the conversation. Great. Thank you. Welcome Andrea and Sean. Hi, my name is Sean Williams. I'm with Teamsters local 71 here in Charlotte, North Carolina. I am a trustee for the local. We just won our election in 2018. I'm currently a steering care international steering steering committee member for the TDU staff. The TDU is Teamster for a Democratic Union. We are the caucus that align with the Teamsters organization is just wonderful to be a part of this panelist. Thank you Barbara for inviting me. And I can't wait to get started to talk about all the good things that we're doing within the Teamsters. Awesome. Thank you. Welcome Sean and Martha. Good evening everybody Union family my name is Martha Rivat. Her. I'm located in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm a retiree from UAW local 869, which is based in Metro Detroit, and I'm on the steering committee of Unite all workers for democracy. I'm also a former founding board member of Pride at Work and served as vice president of Pride at Work Michigan, and I'm a managing editor of workers world newspaper. Awesome. Thank you Martha welcome and Andrew. Thanks Barbara really honored to be here with all of you. My name is Andrew Bergman. I use he and pronouns. I'm here in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I'm a PhD student at Harvard University and I'm a trustee at the Harvard graduate students union which is UAW local 5118. And for those who are surprised to hear that there are graduate students in the UAW that can comment on that solidarity and how our caucus, which Martha is also part of uniting all workers for democracy and has really been a part of building that and yeah I'm also a trustee on the UAW D steering committee. Yeah excited to speak about that work with all of you. Great. Welcome Andrew and welcome all of you and I'm going to actually start at the end sort of would seem like oh let's start with Andrea she's the proto caucus but actually I'm going to start with Sean. Yeah, not the end, but after many years of organizing the circle team which is for Democratic Union just won a big election. And you, I know Sean have been, you know, a part of the work continue and your local as well. So I'm wondering if you could speak for your experience about sort of how you entered the caucus. How you did. What were some of the early decisions that you saw being made as part of that caucus. Give us just sort of bring us into the beginning for your experience of it and what it means what it's meant to you. No problem. Thank you Barbara. First of all, let me let you guys know that I do work for UPS. I am a UPS for 21 years. I didn't bring that up in the, when I first introduced myself so you guys probably like where does he work. I first was introduced to TV you probably in 2016 attended a TV you teams is United event. I mean they were running a slate against Hoffa at the time. It was Fred Zuckerman, the reform slate. And we wanted I wanted to get involved just because I was looking for ways to get information to get knowledge about the union. I wanted to know about how to change the way the union was functioning, how members can be more educated. Really a distraught how we were always kept in the dark about you and your function so that same year that I was that I got to know about TV you and about the functions of TV you that same year. The local union election that I supported was a reform slate, and that was Willie Ford, he was on the reform slate and he was part of TV you. I helped campaign for them, both the reform slate and for the international didn't know a whole lot about TV you but then started getting involved on on the functions that they do. In 2017, some of the UPSers, who I had been in touch with with with with during the last election cycle, start talking about contract proposals, because UPS contract was coming in 2018. TV you then held a meeting at a local restaurant. I attended that meeting. TV you remember from my center was his name is Richard deal, he invited me. I got into organizing across the local pushing for contract reforms contract improvements, how to build regional networks, then how to build a vote no campaign, which we did. The local officers were pushing members to vote yes on the on the actual contract and if you really looked at the contract proposals that was being made. It was nothing that really helped the working man, at least not in UPS. It was a lot of the biggest thing about the contract was that we got a raise. And knowing contracts like I know him now raises just not enough. I mean, it's not. Yes, we are going to make money. But there's the other things that comes in the contract that we need to really pay attention to, for instance, like our retirement funds, we need to look at health care, you know, how is the job functioning is a functioning well, you know. So those things are the things that we were pretty much pushing during the campaign. We voted it down 50% of the participation. We had 63% in our area in the Charlotte area voted no, and the international ratified anyway. Despite what the rank and file members voted on the contract, the international, they ratified the contract anyway. Then we started making plans to run for a local office. I got together with the group of guys, and I decided that hey, I need to make a change I need to do something for my brothers and my sisters. I need to get into office to actually physically make a change in to see what's going on and to explain these things to people in my area. We ran for local office we started mobilizing for the, for the IBT election 2021. We won our local office in 2018 with the reform slate with the help of TDU. The IBT for the IBT election 2021, which just happened and we just, we started explaining all the different changes and what was going on in our actual international that people really didn't know because like I said before they kept us to the dark. Here's one thing that I really like to always tell people is that one of the things that we did as a reform slate as a caucus is, we got rules change. When that election got ratified by the international, we actually got that rule taken out of our Constitution. And most of your members, and I will say most of our members don't even know what the Constitution says what the rules are in the Constitution. And that's where our caucus comes in because we want to educate our members so they know exactly what's in, what's the, what's the details, you know what exactly are we voting on what exactly are we voting for. And, and cannot be international do you know, what is my rights as a member, what should I know. And that's mainly what our caucus do you really want to educate our members make sure that they know exactly what's going on. Once we mobilize our members and organize, we explain the concept we got the contract on change, I'm sorry we got the Constitution change, where the international, the president cannot ratify any contracts, it has to go by the ranking file. That's one of the things we got changed in our delegate delegate election. In our convention. And we ran this good reform slate with some great, great people who are looking out for the ranking file people who listen to the ranking file who actually got shook hands, talk to, explain, listen to what the ranking file people are saying and what their, their actual opinions or what they're what they're going through in their actual areas. So that so that they can know what they're fighting for. If you don't know what your members need in their actual areas, then what are you fighting for, what are you actually building a organization on. So we did that and we won. We won, we did what people say can't be done. We moved the old guard out and we played replacement with something new. And it starts from the grassroots, and we are a grassroots organization. Our main focus is one is to reach one teach one, and each one that we reach and we teach, we bring them stronger together, and it only makes our union stronger, because the union is only strong as this members. So that's pretty much how we got started. That's awesome Sean. I love that you sort of gave us this trajectory. You know, starts with you as just one individual thinking about like, I don't know what's going on this union where can I find out, you know, being agitated about that and then joining with the caucus and moving to where you are now in terms of winning this big election. There are lots of different pieces in there that the other panelists are sort of at different places on those trajectories. So Andrea, I saw you nodding your head a lot as Sean was talking. Maybe you can tell us where you are at and what you what was resonating for you about what Sean was saying. Yeah, I mean I think everything Sean saying it resonates with me, either because it's something I'm experiencing or it's something I hope one day to experience. So, I mean I think that's one of the I'm definitely here on this panel to represent the notion that you are probably in a worker organization and you are probably looking at these like magnificent wins by TDU and you a WD this, this month and thinking, wow I want to be there and the Gulf is really huge and I'm here to represent the notion that, yeah, the Gulf is really huge and there are lots and lots and lots of steps along the way right. And, you know, some of the things that Sean spoke about really resonate with what it's been like for me as a wee baby caucus builder, because it really is about personal agitation, and it really is about not having any idea what your union is doing or what it's up to or why and feeling like you are getting overruled as a rank and file member and when you put in a lot of work to try and get your coworkers organized with you around a thing that really matters to you to have it still completely somewhere up the chain in some room that you're not in that you were never going to get an invitation to and you don't know why and nobody's going to tell you but you'll see the press release right is what it feels like a lot of the time on the ground and as I know as I look around, people say things like oh SCI you tend to one that's one of the good unions. Well that that may well be that we're one of the good unions but it doesn't stop our sort of rank and file member movements and decisions and organizing parties from being overruled at some abstract level of above us and you know I'll just say that you know what happened for me was I getting to a lot of fights, I'm sort of a fighter, and people would come to me and I you know I'm in the program so I do some regional stuff and then I have a chapter and you know I just kind of I'm a busy body and people would come to me like oh we should find about this and like I am fighting about this do you know so and so they're also fighting about this and they're like oh so and so I heard their name and this other thing and it was like oh we need to like be together in a way that's more than simply ideological right like we know that members share the values of democracy and transparency not all members, not all members certainly a lot of the members with institutional power don't share these values but what we needed was a way to be together about those big priorities to make sure that what we cared about was heard and represented and and moved forward and so you know for us you know one of the things that's been really important is to have sort of to think about aware of who and where who are we and where are we going to get organized like what's the digital space you know we have been organizing in COVID which is like there's no there's no home office I don't even know and you know I see you 10 to 1 represent 60,000 workers ish around Northern California we didn't we're not there's no one place we're all going to convene anyway but like do we need a WhatsApp chat do we need a Slack channel do we need like how are we all going to even know each other and how are we going to know what fights each other are fighting because it's all well and good for people to call me and be like hey Andrea I've got this thing but like I'm not I'm not the membership I can help connect them to other people who care about these things but like it was it became really clear that there were a lot of these fights and we've gone through 10 to 1 how to sort of a reform slate maybe 10 years ago that was all well and good but that's like not. If you don't keep your eyes on the prize and stay focused on the goal. And that's what happens a lot and you know, I can say more about this a little bit later but like the urge to run for office. I think, and to have a slate and to sort of take over the Union that's all fine and well but if, if you don't have a really clear foundation of why you're doing it. And for the, for me there are two planks on my on my platform and it's democracy and it's transparency. And, like if it's not in service to democracy and transparency why would you take over the union. You know why would you have a caucus, these are tools on the way to those foundational like values and goals. And so that's what it's been about for me. And, you know, I just, I think it's really interesting that TDU which has been at this for decades generations now TDU has been at this, and it's the same fight as me who's just begun. And I think that that's a really powerful thing to know, and to know also that the watchwords are the same democracy and transparency and member power and organizing and yeah it's, it feels really good to be in company with powerful educators like this. Awesome Thank you so much Andrea. And thinking about democracy and transparency. I know sure Sean is out of the movement of break and file educators have been quainted with their work for a long time as they've been fighting. For that. So, tell us about your experience of more as the caucus is called and, and how and why it got started and what were some of the challenges you, you faced or facing right now. Sure. I feel very resonant with some of the things Andrea that you were speaking about just wanting to connect with other folks and being like hey I'm not the only one out here doing this thing. I actually joined. I've been in the Department of Education I've been a member of the USP for seven years now and hadn't been active at all, because exactly what what has been spoken up by the other panelists. What is the uniqueness of what is the union bureaucracy how do I plug in who do I talk to I have an idea. I have some energy, I have some interest but like where, where's the door to walk in the building right. And so, I actually got connected to the movement of rank and file educators I'd heard of it. But really got connected during COVID. One of my friends actually worked at the first community spread school. And when that happened in New York City it was like ground zero for shutting the school system down and really closing the schools and putting the city into quarantine. And when we were being gas lit, it was being hit, like all of the facts were being hidden people were saying it didn't happen that the tests were being hidden. And this was at a time where we didn't have, you know, testing wasn't available. Testing wasn't reliable and so there was lots of just confusion, which of course the bosses rely on, right. They're doing what they do. And so I got connected through that and really came in supporting through media training. Once I got connected to helping them figure out how to talk to reporters that were showing up at their schools. I found myself with amongst other like minded educators that were speaking the same language that I've been speaking for years. And I quickly found a community of friends and comrades that I could build with. And over the course of our time together. I recognize that, you know, the movement of rank and file educators was founded back in 2012 actually at the height of the Bloomberg rain. And actually, my mom was also a union members I come from a long family of a union folks and blue collar workers. And they were, I remember my mom speaking about the horrors of working under the Bloomberg administration and Joel Klein and sort of pushing through the business model, and really raising up high stakes testing and really making the working conditions in the education system in New York, so horrible. And during that time there were a number of educators similar to how I felt out here just speaking truth to power and wondering who else is out here doing this who else is like minded. And they had formed some organizations outside of the school system outside of the union to do some community organizing and work with parents and community allies, much in the model of core in Chicago. And then they came together during this time under the Bloomberg era to inform this coalition, which they they named the movement of rank and file educators. I would say that they then face similar challenges to what we face now, which is really grappling with this idea. I know we're all on here and talk about sort of, we want a democratic union. Right. And I find that it's really hard to pinpoint what exactly that is. I think democracy and having a democratic union is in a practice. It's not a goal, it's not something that we can like put a gold stamp on and say this is democracy but we can continue to practice it and try and do our best at working at what does that mean what does it look like when we honor the voices of the right and what we're actually held accountable when we actually educate our co workers. I've, I've been an organizer for many years amongst a variety of social justice issues, but doing union organizing has really transformed my organizing and pushed me in a way that I've never experienced before because it takes talking to people who are not necessarily like minded. It takes talking to your coworkers who you actually may have nothing in common with, except you both work in the same place. And how do we talk about our politics with people when, you know, we're not sure that they have aligned politics, and also our bosses are creating chaos and confusion such that we're scared to talk, right. And that that's frowned upon. And so, really, we, we've seen a tremendous amount of growth. I wasn't the only one that came in during COVID in response to why aren't the school shutting down 600 other people joined the movement of rank a file educators around the same time our caucus bloomed because people were fed up with how our city was putting us in danger. So, you know, I think that we have a lot of challenges that includes, how do we think about not only democracy, but inside of democracy, how do we address anti oppression, how do we think about raising up and lifting up the voices of women of gender non binary and non conforming folks of trans folks how do we think about lifting up the voices of people of color, how do we figure out how to lift up the voices of marginalized not not only as a community but also within the profession so myself. I'm in a teacher's union and I'm a social worker so I'm often also in a battle not only as one of the only black women in leadership in the caucus but also in a battle around the only social worker or non teacher that is visible in our caucus so I'm thinking about who it who are we representing when we talk about democracy, who are we being inclusive of. So those are some of the challenges that we continue to face that I'll lift up here but of course you know there are many more. That's awesome and what a lead in to hearing from Martha and Andrew in terms of the complexities of democracy what is, what is a culture of democracy actually look like in a caucus in a union when they as part of you a wd have just one, this incredible victory on a step towards but opening up for Shoshona opening up for you Andrew and Martha and others are thinking about what the road ahead is going to look like for that but before we get there. Let's hear about the caucus how it came together and how you're able to win this victory how you understand it for yourselves. Well thank you so much. You know we're a relatively new caucus inside the United Auto Workers, which is over 85 years old. Many of us have been involved in in prior efforts to turn the Union around to turn it away from business unions unionism and break up the partnership with the company and in the process and also towards that and to become a really democratic union where the rank and file is heard and does have a voice and can really have an impact in the direction of the Union, and we, some of us have known for decades that the convention delegate system of electing the National Executive Board does not serve the interest of the rank and file it has been used by the dominant administration caucus to keep its own members in control of the Union and to perpetuate the policies that have really helped the corporations, more than the membership. So, so we began to come together around 2019 2020 around the time that there was a growing awareness around the extent of corruption in terms of top Union officials taking bribes from FCA via Chrysler automobiles, which I retired from in 2019, which is now slantus and then that other than the GM department of the UAW General Motors, they were taking kickbacks from vendors, and then it finally came out that that in parts of the country. Our presidents were actually expropriating Union dues and lining their pockets and paying for golf outings and buying golf clubs and staying in fancy resorts and doing all these things that are really the antithesis of what workers power of what a Union should represent. And I think this corruption through out of the partnership with with capital, and that you have this cozy relationship with, you know, some of the wealthiest people on earth. You start to get aspirations for yourself in those directions you want the same privileges that the people that are across the table from you that you're negotiating with enjoy obscenely. So as this these very sad, embarrassing facts came to life. It was clear that there would be growing rank and file sentiment for a change in the Union, and for a change in how leaders are chosen. We formed UAWD United on Workers for Democracy, which you know incorporates UAW in its own acronym. We tapped into a real sentiment and we began, we began to build a movement to try again to win one member one vote. Through a mechanism in our Union Constitution, where if enough locals pass a resolution calling for a special convention. The Union has to call that convention and we organize to demand a special convention to to discuss the matter of switching to one member one vote. We came close to crossing the threshold of enough locals that represented enough members to pass this but being a very grassroots volunteer effort, we didn't quite get there. So then we had to start over, but then in the middle of this, this consent decree came out between the federal government and the international UAW. And one of the items in the consent decree was that the Union would have to conduct a referendum vote, where every member retired and working and laid off would cast a ballot indicating their preference. Do they want direct elections one member one vote, or do they want to keep it the way it is. So we had not anticipated a settlement like that, but you know it was something that really was an opportunity to organize around. So we began this whole grassroots campaign to contact members to leaflet phone bank, reaching out to our UAW D members to get, you know, people in their plants and their workplaces their college campuses. Casinos wherever they worked. We did a real effort, mainly, you know, with a tiny staff, but mostly with volunteers to reach our members and to explain, explain what this vote was about because they weren't getting any explanation from the Union and they understand why it was in their interest, and which, which oh, they should fill in, and that they had to send their ballot in. We, we, we did text and phone banking to see make sure everyone had a ballot, we found a large number of members who had never even received their ballot in the mail so we told them how they could request the ballot so we, we just, I, we can't take all the credit for this win, which if anyone hasn't heard about 63 to 64% of those voted voted in favor of one member one vote so a huge win. And, but it's something we have it's a means to an end. It's a means to really radically transform our union. It's a step in the direction. It's not an end in itself where we're not finished where we're just getting started. Awesome Andrew you're going to add anything to that. Yeah, I could just say to add sort of taking the thread from that last point without going back to the beginning that I think. I think there's a role that you a wd has played, you know, I've been thinking about sort of in rank and file work that the difference between sort of mobilizing and a deeper organizing around building community, and how, how much we all fall in and contract campaigns but also in these sort of procedural moments like we have in you a wd where, okay there's a referendum that now we want to win. We want to vote, and how that can, you know, I don't think mobilizing and, and a more community based organizing are necessarily at odds with each other but it's easy to prioritize just asking people to do something tomorrow, and not realize like well, maybe people be excited to do that if we all know each other better and understand each other and care about each other and then the mobilizing is kind of. This is what I've learned from reading a lot of labor notes articles I guess and actually I think she's on the call but we just had Ellen Friedman come to our local and talk to talk about the importance of this so I was just thinking about how, how much you a wd has mobilized but also how that's led to a lot of really organic and exciting organizing community building and that's especially been true. My experience is in higher ed but I think it's true, broadly, the UW is this very sort of chunked up sort of people are very alienated from each other a lot of folks. In some sectors of the UW don't even know you know the auto focus folks all know that they're in the UW but people in my local don't even know the members of the UW sometimes. And, and so what can happen is people just don't really you know they get very focused on their local and they don't understand that there is anything else going on, especially, you know, even when these folks have been sort of holding on to the range so so closely and through you a wd through even learning about the fact that there is a broader organization and how how undemocratic it's been and how much we can change how much we can push for strike militancy and organizing new new workplaces together. That's just been this amazing political education opportunity for me, you know, over the last year I've learned so much about what the UW is and could be, but for you know hundreds and thousands of others, especially outside of auto and so you know now, now there are these like meetings you know every other, every other week across higher ed across auto but also at local levels of people who I never you know didn't know each other. Locals that have never spoken to each other had no contact now finding how much similarity they have experiencing, you know, undemocratic sort of relationships at their local level but also the international now now meeting each other and so the UW has sort of used the procedural moment I think to build a really organic sort of organizing opportunity out of it and I think the next steps. You know, we all hope on the student committee will be will be more of that you know well, sure we'll be mobilizing around delegate races for upcoming convention, but how, how do you get that to happen well you get a lot of people to know about their co workers who are interested in this change and care about them and then and work together with them. And that'll be true for our convention as well so I think I've been excited about how that's actually gone and that's part of the strategy we've used not just saying go vote but actually talking about the issues that that might make people care about each other in one of the first place. Barbara, can I jump in. Yeah, yeah, go right ahead. Andrew you really reminded me of something that I feel like it's so important I want to make sure everybody really. Here's and knows about which one of the things that you're pointing to is this idea of relational organizing and really lifting that up and I think that that came through in my experience and more from really really leveraging an anti racist and anti patriarchal lens around and looking at how can we do our organizing from an intersectional perspective where we actually value our relationships and we and they're meaningful such that they go further than just this vote or this particular action but they're there for the long run. And so one of the things that we did during the summer of 2020 was work on community commitments within more, and we developed a set of community commitments we don't want to call them ground rules but we noticed that in this like bloom of so many people joining. We needed some ground rules or you know, norms community norms people call them. And so we got together a group of representatives across more that reached different working groups, and we came together to really think through what are some community commitments things that we can ask people to commit to. And one of the things that we did that we lifted up in that process is valuing critical relationships over critical math, and really digging deep into our relationships and building person to person and I think that that sets us as rank and filers apart from the larger bureaucratic machines that we're up against, where they just are using our dues and pushing forth, whatever their own agendas are, rather we're sitting back and really taking the time to build relationships. So even though it's harder work, it's slower moving work. I believe in it. So I just wanted to lift that up and say like that's really, really important as folks think about building a caucus. What are some of the foundational values that you're late thinking about anti racism anti patriarchy how that plays into not only just your rhetoric but also how you're doing the work. Yeah, that there's so much good stuff here it's like hard for me to figure out which are the questions in my mind I want to go with here but I'm thinking about, you know, labor notes as a book, how to jump start your union which is the story of the Chicago teachers union and the caucus of rank and file educators and how they were able to take over and begin to transform that union. And what I always say about that book is you should buy it you should read it, but also there's one sentence that captures it. And, and that is to be the union you want your union to be. And that's what I hear you, Andrew and Shoshana particular right now talking about that. Like, how do we actually do the work of being a union that is itself transformative. So be interested for for Sean and Andrea. What are the ways that you see yourselves as being the union that you want your union to be. You want to go far as Andre. Okay. Let me say one of the ask the question again please. Like, what are some of the ways that you locally and then in the international have like changed the union by being by acting the way the union needs to act. Let me start with in like 2019. I attended, I attended my first TVU convention, and what, what it really did is open my eyes to how much of the information is out there, and how much we can accomplish as a union if we just work together. I remember to educate and inform each other to make connections to to to Shoshana's point across the country. I teams to unions is huge. And it's not just one Sean in Charlotte, North Carolina there's a Sean in Greensboro there's a Sean in Virginia. There's a Sean in Chicago there's a Sean in California. And that's one thing that TVU has done for me is to connect me with those different like minded individuals in different areas. And it's, it's, it's a great opportunity because now you're learning from different people on how they deal with situations, how they're engaging with their rank and file members. What outcomes have they gone through on what failures did they have, what did they learn from those failures. I think we learn a lot by having dialogue with one another. Talking about those struggles, talking about those things that that we went through, because by learning that we can grow, and we can make ourselves better. One thing I've learned is getting active in TVU. Being more active in getting other people involved takes a lot of work in getting them organized because a lot of people don't understand exactly what it is that they need to do to help things to help the union go farther to help that group go farther. What I want to do in my local is to make sure when I inform people and make sure that they want do the necessary necessary things and the necessary necessary things in our group is to vote. A lot of our members don't vote. They really don't know about voting or they don't know vote for it or what the issues are and that's where I feel my strong, my strong suit is is to get them the information that they need. What are we voting on? Who are we talking about? What is those platforms? How are they going to affect you in the long run? Future wise, what I look at is our younger members that's coming in are unaware about unions. They are unaware about the power of the union. How their involvement in the union is going to help their lives has going to benefit them in the future. So there I'm trying to actually integrate them into TDU, try to get them the information that they need to get them more motivated into doing the necessary things because all we need is everyone to do one little thing. It doesn't take me doing everything. It takes me, Andrew, Barbara. Everyone does just one little thing to make this thing grow. And that's what I'm doing. I'm getting little people to do one person, I'm not little people, but get one person to do one little thing for me to help the work group. That helps get them involved. So while you get people in the work group, giving them assigned tasks where they can feel that they're being a part of instead of just sitting in the room and listening, but they're being actually being a part of what we're doing. And that's powerful thing. That's one of the things I really want to push for in our group in my local right now as an officer. And internationally, I'm going to keep pushing our leaders I know we have a reform party that just won. They don't take office until March of 2023. And then right after that we'll start the campaign for our new contract, which ends in August of 2023. Because we help get them in office does not mean that we stop doing what we're doing. If anything, we're going to push for more and more and more. We're going to push so that the each rank and file member is heard by the top brass. We don't want you to get up there and forget about us. We want, we want to be front and center. We really want to be the, the, the, the closest thing in your mind when you sit down for negotiations I want you to know that. Hey, Sean told me about this. Sean expressed this about the men with the members one. And I want that I want that to resonate with them always and I want them to know that we have them back as well. We're pushing for reform things that we need in our contract and we want what you know that as long as you're fighting for us, we have your back. And that was made to stronger. So that's what we're trying to, that's what I'm trying to do here and shout it out go out and in the national for teachers. I think I think a couple of things that Sean just said really resonate for me when I think about how we are being the union we want our union to be. And that notion of member engagement where members do things right like everybody it's it's I'm sure many of you have seen that diagram of the bullseye where you're trying to move members closer into the center of what's happening. Not everybody's going to be like a member of the steering committee or like a super member, but everybody can do a little bit more, but people who are completely checked out can to learn what the union is people who've learned with the union is can do one task. And, you know, that's, that's one of the things that we're really focused on is shared leadership that it is not like just because I'm the person that stands in the middle of the circle does not mean this is mine or that it is reasonable for me to do it all right. And so, if what we want as a union where all the members are engaged, then the movement within the union has to be a movement where all of the members are engaged. And, and the other thing that I think Sean said that really resonated was about being responsive. You know people have real problems in their workplaces and in their lives that come with them to their workplaces. And, you know, we have to listen to that and respond. Right, like I've got my two planks on the platform and I would like to think that, you know, any issue can be folded into them but the reality is is members will tell us what needs, what needs doing, where the problems are, where the issues are. And so, you know, to that point about, you know, like relational organizing, like, we have to listen to each other, even on the steering committee we have to listen to each other and what we're experiencing we have to listen to what issues people are bringing, we have to, and then we have to respond to that and be accountable to each other in sort of this notion of, we're currently small enough that we can still do consensus style leadership and really shared leadership. That's probably not going to work forever. Hopefully we grow far too large for true consensus. You know, who knows whatever we'll see. But back to what Shoshana said about democracy isn't like a checkbox that you put a gold star in when you win it it's a thing you practice over and over and we have to practice it even within our caucus building. And democracy with a little D doesn't just mean, you know, when there's only 20 of you in the room it can't be just everybody casts a ballot and then you count up the vote democracy has to mean something more. And it has to be a higher standard that we're holding ourselves to because it's going to get diluted as it grows that's my perspective I welcome other perspectives about that but you know we have to just be really serious about what we're doing. And that's how we can be the union that we want our union to become is by modeling a real seriousness of intent around it. You know and lifting up members who are, you know, traditionally and historically and maybe intentionally sometimes boxed out of leadership within our union, really looking to the structural problems that make it hard for, you know, women and non binary people to do leadership role like when are the meetings held are they held at a time when many workers are trying to get dinner on the table well, we as a caucus within a union can do better than the union does at that. You know, do we need to offer, you know, translation, do we need to have more accessible technologies like what do we need to be the union we want our union to become. You know the intersections are really powerful here, because we do often complain about who's sitting in the big fancy chairs but that's not necessarily because they're the only ones who wanted to run their like structures that support them running. So we get to be the people as members of their grassroots, who are really working on tearing down those structures and building an alternative which makes it more possible for other kinds of leaders to seize the power they already have and express it in a in a place where it's not been welcome. Like, breathless with this panel is excuse me, you're just like all laying down such wisdom. So I want to actually go to questions for a little bit from the participants and then I'm going to ask the panelists. Like what you're thinking about as you're hearing each other talk like what's what's like a little bit more about like what's emerging for you. And got got a big question I'm going to start with here. I'm not sure who has asked this question. But they give an example from a paragraph and how you jumpstart how to jumpstart your union. That talks about how people in court been involved in pack the reform caucus that held the CTU top officer job from 2001 to 2004, when the key lesson sentiment against the incumbents might be enough to sweep you into office, but it was not enough to transform the union once you got in veterans of that fight will worry of rushing into another electoral campaign. So I think any of you about the tension between organizing the union by tackling work issues versus involving people in internal union disputes, and how this fits in caucus building. How does union electoral isn't fit into this so a little bit about like organizing by taking up the work of the union. So that versus sort of saying like, we're the caucus, and we're going to take down the leadership. This is Martha and the comment. Thank you to the participant for asking that question, because I've seen you know how anti-incumbency sentiment is not necessarily going to lead the union in a progressive direction and if you base a campaign on catering to that, then you might get elected to office, but you're getting in without any kind of a program for making the union better you're, you're, you're not taken on. The previous speakers talked about in terms of standing up for queer workers, women were workers of color. You're not standing up for the most oppressed you're not, you're not building real unity. And you're not engaging the membership in a way that they can actually make things better in the workplace. And that has to happen. If we really want a better labor movement and if we want a better society that we can't just run a narrow single issue campaign or just appeal to disgruntledness. We can do that, but we can't just, just focus on that. And then I, you know, we've all seen it, you know, there's a so let's let's just vote out the incumbents and then, you know, might be somebody, somebody even less for the membership someone even more crooked gets in so I think we need a whole holistic approach to reviving the class struggle in this country and around the world. And let me say real quick, to your point Martha, great point, great point. Just because you get in the office does that mean that all the problems go away, just because you get voted in and the incumbents get voted out doesn't mean that everything's going to be grand, you have to have a vision. Whoever you're voting in, they have to have a vision and hopefully the ranking file see that vision and hold that hold those officers to that vision that they have, because the vision is going to represent the people. When we came into our slate. When we started our slate we had a vision. We talked to the people on what our vision was going to be about what we want to do for the people. How we want to serve them. What we're going to be responsible for, which is we're going to be responsible to them to serve in them to the best of our ability. Putting someone out because you don't like them. Just to put someone else in that doesn't work. What works is having somebody who's going to going to do the work for you and bring you in on it. One of the biggest things is about the caucus is in building a right to file slate reform slate is that the right can file has the power. Remember our leaders. All our members are leaders. And the moment that a person forgets that because the union is a union, meaning each person has a part of that. So the moment that the leadership division forgets that. You want to disintegrate your union. So the powers and the people, voting people that has a has a has your best interest in mind has a vision for you. And if you like that vision that's where you vote in and support, but always hold them accountable for that vision really quickly to get for appreciated. I had a very interesting situation because my local was actually on strike. So we were kind of right in the middle of the peak of our contract campaign while this one member one vote campaign was open while the vote was open. I was having a good time doing those two things at the same time and not doing my job very often, but what was going on. At least conceptually was something that could sound like two very different efforts right like to this question like an internal union dispute, and was that helping us build power against the boss or was that kind of a conflicting And we had a grand total of one person as we talked about this issue say please don't talk about this anymore and I was amazed because I figured we get at least a few. None of our leaders but none of our rank and file other than that one person raised that as an issue hundreds of people end up voting on this and I was actually fliering to sort of get out the vote for one or one vote on the picket line. And I was like someone will say this is a bad use of time or someone will say this is distracting I was kind of cheapish about it actually, and only uniformly got positive, positive sort of feedback but I think that's because our message was that social justice union runs through these direct elections it this this is about something that is not just this narrow procedural issue it's about why we're doing this in the first place the same reason we're building power. Against the bosses is this is the reason we think we should be voting for these direct legend it's not like a sort of unrelated procedural thing and I think that's why everyone out there was like yeah of course like we're out here striking for the same reason that we would vote for these I think for me that it's not a zero sum game I think having an internal union deliberation and a disagreement whether it's an electoral issue or not can very much actually build power against the bosses if it's done in a way that is a discussion of the broader reasons we do this I think it probably and a backfiring if it becomes very personal and very kind of like detailed or about just like some individual I think that's probably when it can be a distraction but I actually believe it can build power and bring more people into the effort. I couldn't agree more. I have had that exact experience in my workplace and in our political program, where, you know, the fight that we have in our workplace, we had a contract fight over the summer we ended up doing open opening like open open invited the press and the public to come be high deacon Ralph from my church who came to all the open bargaining sessions and happens to be here. Like that's another way in which we sort of be the union we want ourselves to be, but the reality is that was a fight we had to have with our union first. Our institutional union was not down with that kind of transparency. So in so far as the members wanted to fight publicly for bold climate action and for, you know, you know, full equity for our recreation workers and who are disproportionately black and brown disproportionately disproportionately likely to live in Berkeley and disproportionately likely to have zero benefits and no job security. You know, in so far as people want to fight for those things. They had to fight the union for transparency first. And that is the same fight. And, you know, whether you want to think about it from the heady space of transparency and democracy and accountability. Or if you want to fight for, you know, the right for walking to have another shift next week, it is the same fight. It really is the same fight. And if you're doing the relational organizing and if you're getting deep in there and not just mobilizing people to, you know, come give public comment at city council but you're actually talking to them about what's happening in their workplace and what's happening in their home and what's happening in their corner of the union. They all they really all fit together and that's the vision. The vision is, you know, you want these things not because democracy is, you know, per se wonderful it's because democracy is what allows power to build for workers and the working class that's that's how it works. And so, yeah, I just couldn't agree more Andrew. I don't know if I can let this question go without hearing from you about this so thoughts listening to this before we move on to another set of questions. I just underscore everything that Sean said about being visionary. Even before becoming a union organizer, I was doing prison abolition work and that's one of the main things that burnt me out was that in that there's a lot of social justice organizing spaces that are anti, but not pro the vision of what we're doing. And so I think to set us apart and to be winnable we have to have a vision for what's possible. And we have to make it tangible and realistic and easily digestible and something that is enticing and that people want to participate in and that feels fun and not something that feels hard not something that's like, hey, like, yeah, we want you to come spend three hours on a Saturday with us and like talk about something boring but no, we want you to come spend three hours with us on a Saturday and make friends and be engaged and be activated and learn something new and find community. Right, we have to be putting forth a vision of what our unions can do for people. That's just different. Like I said, I, when I became a delegate in our social work chapter election, the president, the, the chapter leader was also up for reelection, and the statements from both chapter leaders were just embarrassing, honestly, they both were trash talking to each other in their statements for why they wanted to be chapter leader and I just couldn't understand like I had no relationship with either one of these people nor really a long term long history of understanding either one of their work, and it just seemed petty and funny It didn't feel like impactful at all and so it felt like a waste and honestly disrespectful to me and all of the social workers who these people now represent. And so, in that sense, I totally agree we have to be putting forth a vision and the internal bickering of tearing down one for the other just doesn't work. Finally, I'll say that in New York City, you know we're building towards an election campaign against mole group. And I think it's really, really easy to be anti mole group it's really easy to be anti incumbent and just say like look, look at what has happened over this pandemic. We want different leadership don't you want someone that's going to fight harder. That's not going to settle for crappy air purifiers that we know don't work right like don't you want someone that's going to fight harder, and that's really easy. But the bigger question is who is that people who is the person that's going to fight harder. What is their vision and how can they put that forth and I think that that's the thing that actually is much harder. And that's the piece of democracy that is is really challenging and I think we not only see that within our union but we see that within our government system, where the left gets blintered because we can't figure out, right, who gets to be who gets to win who's pathway is correct. So I just, I think of all of those things in relation to this conversation and yeah just underscoring, we have to have a vision and a clear vision and make it enticing. To your point, Shoshana, I totally agree with you. And one of the reasons I brought that up is because it's easy to tear another person down. But then what do you get out the person that is doing the tearing. So, I mean, tearing another person down talking down and saying how bad it. Okay, so what are you going to, what is your vision, what it what do you see your role in the next election. And how do you see the union evolving. What is your preparation for the members, how are you going to get members more engaged. My, the president, my president on Willie Ford, he one of the things that we did in our campaign was we are not going to trash the incumbent. That's one of the things we said, we're not going to, we're not going to stoop to that level, we're going to keep it about the policy, we're going to keep it about the business, we're going to keep it about informing our members. And that is the strongest for me, I think it's the strongest way of running an election, running your candidacy, because you're keeping it, not personal, but you're keeping it about the issues because honestly, the way I feel about a candidate really doesn't matter in the great, in the, in the great screamer things to other people, me and their relationship really doesn't matter, what matters is what the members are going to get from your candidacy. And not only that right, even if we look at what's happening on a national level in our government we know that just the just the vote, I think to Andrea's point just the vote is not enough we have to be engaged in the conversation. Because 51% winning, it divides right it doesn't create a safe space so no one's moving towards a future where we can all feel safe and free and and feel like we're working towards doing something that's meaningful. So we have to figure out how to do, how to go bigger than just 51%, how to go bigger than just getting the vote, but what, what are we selling what are we offering to people, right what are we organizing around. So, in another set of questions, bring us sort of back to the beginning of caucuses a little bit have a question that asks how to, how to begin a caucus in a, in a very low activity union, like how do you start. And sort of the same vein. What thoughts do you have about how to move people from thinking of the union as they to we think those are sort of connected if we think about how do we start and how do we bring how do we welcome people and to this thing that we're calling a caucus. I just want to encourage the questioner to consider that they might already be starting a caucus. Because I didn't realize I was starting a caucus. But I think, I think the other question that I'm left with out of the question is, what do you mean by low activity. Because I think that there is this sense that people who aren't doing anything are apathetic, they don't care. I think that's not true. I think everybody cares. And sometimes they feel hopeless like there's there's no nowhere to put that energy know where to do that. Nothing constructive to do with it. And honestly, where I am in my wee baby steps towards a caucus is really just meeting each other. I mean it really is just organizing. It really is just listening when somebody complains, and, and being like, Oh, they're complaining about a real problem. And I don't have the solution to it or maybe I have a little bit. I mean Sean's point about education just couldn't be more poignant here that sometimes it was just a matter of me saying like, Oh, well there's a X for that there's a committee for that there's a bylaw about that there's whatever it is. But it really is just meeting each other. I mean hearing what's going on and making connections. And just add the free go on sort of feed another piece of a question to that. That one of the questions that we've seen is people sort of wondering like in a very concrete way like where do you where do you meet like what is it. What does it mean to meet as a caucus. Versus like meet as a, you know, at a union meeting or something. So just, do you all want to cook that a little bit as you're answering this question that's fun. Go ahead Andrew. Yeah, I did. There's kind of three questions woven into one but the second one, getting from they to we trying to get the membership out of this mindset that that like union dues are like attorney's fees and that you're paying for a service and they're just supposed to, you know, get you out of trouble when and get all these things for you. And an example of the lack of involvement, you know, while we're celebrating this electoral win about 15% of the members who could have voted actually voted. Most of our members didn't fill out the ballot and put it in the mail. That's, we've got to, we've got to raise the level of engagement. Because, you know, if we're going to win, really win against companies like General Motors or John Deere or Harvard or whoever, you know, our powers at the point of production we're going to need those 85% you know 15% of the membership. We're going to win a vote, but they can't really win the big battles. So it's, it's something we all, all of us that are union activists really grapple with like how can we, how can we get the members you know are they my most you a w local I don't know, a quorum might be 35 or 50 or 70 out of, you know, maybe a couple thousand members. That's all you need at the union hall to hold a union meeting. We've got to get, you know, it's kind of cliche put the you back in union but we've got to. We've got to energize the membership and engage the membership and get the membership activated, because it's it's really the working class has so much power. We're the most powerful force on earth, because we're the only force that can just stop production and we can shut things down. But, you know, we can't do it if, if, if we can, if we can't pull people in and feel like they're really got to be part of this. Not sure what Andrew had to add. I was going to, what Andrew said really resonated with me as well and I was just going to give a reflection actually at my local level about how to read involvement and that it might not necessarily be a reflection of apathy and in my local which is just very new. You know, but we've been organizing for a long time on our campus but the locals really only been set up for a year and a half. It's been very much a duocracy, which in some ways is very exciting it's been really rank and filers who stepped up, but, but we also have, you know, we have like a very sort of entrenched like liberal mindset I think in my union and it's this notion that like, really there's a there's a group of experts who know what's going on and we should defer to them. And they're not, not for any, you know, in many ways very democratic union it's not, it's not because of corruption, it's not, it's not you a w staff necessarily doing it but it's it's a smaller group that has taken on and learned a lot that are often deferred to and, and sometimes you know and sort of the nascent caucus work at the local and national level we've asked well, why don't folks step up why you know there's all these people we know I know through talking to them that they're frustrated or they're confused or they have requests or demands but they don't say that and I think it's because you can create a culture of sort of feeling like that's not okay. Like you're not, you're not, you know, this goes back to, I think, maybe, you know, Shoshani you were you were asking this question about like people are like where's the door you know hey how do I even get into this and that also I felt like that was a very similar point there like people don't necessarily know how to get in, but then they're also kind of being told well you're not actually supposed to be here or maybe you can show up for a mobilization and come on the picket line but don't start causing a ruckus until you've like earned your stripes and then you can and I, I feel like that can create this very sort of cyclic, you know, sort of world where we're just a few people are involved in decision making. Anyway, and so for me that's it's very much not necessarily because of apathy it could be because of a culture of like not feeling like it's okay and then to Andrew's point I think that's where you have to like talk with people ask about what they're motivated like only then can you get people to step up and take on those roles as rank and file leaders through that community building. Go ahead Shoshani I saw you unmute. I'll just say briefly I think, you know, to add to everything that's being said, while more is not new, something that is new is that I've been organizing with social workers within more within our caucus. And so that's that's brand new and I'll speak to that in the sense that it is, it has just taken reaching out to friends and networks and connecting with folks and doing the one on ones and having conversations and finding like minded folks. Luckily, I am in a profession where social. It's a much easier sell for me because social justice is an ethical principle of the social work profession. So it's easy to sell the social justice caucus the social workers, or at least easier. And, and that still means that it's hard work it still means that I'm having one on one conversations and so I know folks have had like some, some hard concrete questions and so I'll just say, I'm actually really lucky that today for a lot more folks are comfortable with zoom and having zoom meetings I was doing statewide organizing in New York when zoom didn't exist and we were on free conference call calm. And it takes getting on a conference call or opening up a zoom throwing up a zoom link and saying hey we're going to hop on and just and chat and see what comes up and have open agenda meetings where people just get to honestly ask questions of each other what's going on at your work site. How are things going. Oh I have a question about this. Sometimes it's related to the Union organizing and sometimes it's more related to the profession and concrete support that people need. Either way, I think as we build those relationships, whether through concrete support or through larger Union organizing issues, all of it builds towards creating those kind of critical connections and critical relationships that we need. So I know earlier somebody said like, how do we get people like should the meeting be open or closed and I'm a fan of that first opening them and, and keeping them as wide open as possible, until it makes sense to close them because you're doing a particular work that's important to like be thoughtful about the safety and security of the members. But as you just are exploring conversations. I think it. I'm of the mindset that the more the merrier than the wider we cast our net, the better we chances we have of building solidarity amongst people and creating spaces for people to have conversations and meet each other. I use WhatsApp and I use zoom and I use email and I use texting text banking and I'm also lucky because as a social worker I get an intern. So I have an intern who's here watching also. I would get to use her support and her learning process to support our organizing work. And I think all of that builds towards how do you, how do you do this how do you have those conversations. And the, the last thing that I wanted to add. I'm just going to jump in here because I know somebody asked me about resources on intersectional organizing. And so I just want to throw out there emergent strategy by Adrian Marie Brown and Angela Davis is women racing class are some really good, I would say starting points for thinking about intersectional analysis. This has been just like, like breathtaking awesome I'm so delighted that we were able to get all of you together in the same space to have this conversation. I know there are a lot of questions that we haven't been able to get to. I want us to, to, to wrap up and I guess the last question I'll ask is, we can, you know, definitely folks on the on the call who were who are trying to think about like how do I get started like what do, what do I do when I when it gets tough what's, what's like the the you would say to hold on to, as a group is coming together, discovering as Andrea has that they're building a caucus at what what's like one practical idea or commitment that you would say hold on to this, and it'll help you do the work. What's your mission statement. What's your mission. You say things that you hold on to is, why are you doing what you do. And one of the things we have we have a mission statement that I love to read and I look over often just to just to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Everyone has, if you have that that quote that you look at, if you have that that word that always gets you going, you have that. So, why do you do what you do, what's your mission statement. And that, that does it all for you. I just share a quote that I learned from from elders, when I was still younger union activist, and it's kind of as widespread applications. If you don't have a union fight to organize a union. If you have a union fight to make it fight. I would say my number one tool are my buddies. Because this work is hard. It's hard in the beginning. And so I have buddies in fact one of my best accountability buddies is not even in the union, but he is the co chair of the Labor Committee of my local chapter of DSA and one of my touchstone thinking partners and he's the one who keeps nudging me along. Because some days it's too hard to hold that vision, myself and that mission of my own, and my buddies can always bring it back for me when I'm feeling like it's hard. So, get a buddy, get a buddy who can bring another perspective and get a buddy who's also like deep in the movement I also have buddies in the political program and buddies in my chapter who have that mission and vision with me and for me when I can't myself. Yeah, I'm with Andrea, I, I wish I had a cool quote I'm sorry I don't but um, but I think for me what Andrew said is really resonates like, there are some really tough moments. I've talked about them with, with people who are who are in the audience like where people are kind of pushing back. This has been true more for me at the local level than actually I think there's almost a 10 because at the national level can be so big that you might not even encounter folks on the other side that often so it almost feels like you're only amongst friends but no but I have I have had our sort of people at our regional level also go go after me and a bit of a personal talk to me and say hey what you're doing here is actually undermining our union and it can feel pretty intense. And I think it's hard to, to work through that, without having, you know, kind of close comrades, but you can go to and say, like, well what happened there was I wrong, were they wrong, was this part of it was this just like a part of what's going to happen as you try to sort of change your union and push for democracy are the are the folks who, who stand to come after you and I guess my limited experiences that the answer is yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't make it through and so I think just having close comrades to go to and have, you know, have spaces where you can really work through it is, is crucial I think that's the place to start to if you don't have a friend that you're doing this with or close comrades and I think work out from there find a few and then and then maybe you're ready to start a caucus because I think it's rough to do it kind of before that. I'll leave you with three questions. What is your theory of change. Who are you accountable to, and who is not at the table. Um, thank you all so much Shoshana, Andrea, Martha, Sean, and Andrew just really, really appreciate your bringing your wisdom together and us creating new knowledge and wisdom together tonight with with what you've brought. I appreciate it want to thank everybody who got on tonight. If you love this experience. There are other ways to connect with labor notes. First of all, make sure that you're in Chicago, June 17 through 19 that are 2022 conference. We have a labor notes events page and you can see that at labor notes.org. In the meantime, we have lots of other events online trainings and conversations for stewards and and organizing trainings with secrets of a successful organizer. So check us out there. And also, we do this on the are able to do this work because we have people who donate. So check out our donation page and support us there. But thank you all very much. Really awesome evening. Really appreciate it we'll be posting this up on Facebook so you can see it. And again, much appreciation to all of you for getting on. Thank you. Thank you for ever. Good night. Good night everybody.