 Prime Minister Mitsutaka's pleasure to have you on. Thank you for it So I wonder people to remember that Greece was the country that everyone was worried was going to bring Europe down Bring the euro down was really seen as a kind of sick man of Europe and You're in a very different position now. The economist says you are one of the economic winners in the in the win their list What happened Well, I think it is indeed a very interesting story of an economic transformation We came into power in July 2019 and we inherited the country and an economy that was still traumatized Not just as a result of the financial crisis But also traumatized from our experiment with with populism which essentially unnecessarily prolonged the crisis For four additional years and we came into power with a very clear Commitment to restore Greece to a high-growth trajectory by implementing what I would consider common-sense reforms Lowering the tax base making the country more attractive for foreign direct investment making sure that we digitize our Sort of rather opaque and antiquated bureaucracy well at the same time Behaving in a responsible manner in terms of our obligations towards climate So we had from the very beginning a very aggressive approach on the issues of the green Transition and in spite of the fact that we had to deal with multiple crisis I think we've succeeded in turning the country around and if I look at the image of Greece today And I compare it to three years ago when I was again at Davos pitching my story at the time at the beginning of our term Then I sensed interest, but also skepticism Now we have the facts to support the argument that we have indeed turned the corner That Greece is no longer the sick man of Europe and that we're actually leading Europe on numerous fronts when it comes to innovative Public policy and this of course gives us strength and energy as we move into our election cycle to make a case that we Should be given the opportunity to govern the grease for four more years That's right. You're going to go into into election. Yeah, yeah at some point in the spring. Yeah Let's talk some of the numbers Greece's growth rate now. I mean five point six percent for 2022 8.4 percent in 2021 I Expect the growth the closer to two percent than one percent in 2023 and we may even surprise on the upside But I think equally important numbers of foreign direct investment record years 21 record year again 2022 and we did that without compromising our fiscal sustainability Priority so if you look at debt to GDP We've had the fastest decline of debt to GDP than any other European country to the point where no one talks about the Greek debt being an Issue the one talks about Greek banks being an issue. I remember when we came into power We had NPEs at 40 percent of the banks balance sheets now it's single digits So all of these were many clouds and they seem to have they seem to have cleared which gives us also Room to to plan for the future without being in constant crisis management mode The green transition is also quite impressive at this point. What percentage of Greece's electricity is produced from renewables Close to 50% and their days today for example is a lovely day back in Greece sunny windy without Not too hot not too cold so we don't have many Requirements and close to 90% You know of the electricity during the day will be produced by renewables and there were days You know in October where for hours we produced 100% of our electricity from renewables We have 12 gigawatts of installed Capacity of wind and solar and a very aggressive plan to roll out Wind and solar for the for the next years. So when you look at you know to me What's interesting about the Greek case is you have a center-right government pro market But as you say responsible on green issues also on protecting the vulnerable Is there a model here for how to stave off? populism because I look at it it does seem even though Biden's government is center-left it there are similarities here I think the main cleavages today are not so much between the center-right and the center-left But between those who believe in in in policy pragmatism and You know in a well-functioning democracies and those who promise the moon while at the same time undermining democratic institutions In our case, you're right. I'm a center-right politician But many of the policies that we've pursued could be labeled as as rather progressive and I've been making a Case that the next phase of the Greek growth Cannot be funded by debt That's what we did when the country went back ramped in the first place But also needs to focus on innovation on the green transition on the digital transition But also needs to be fair So what we've done and I think we've done successfully was to make sure that all the support we provided our citizens and our Businesses was always and is always means tested. So we resisted temptation to horizontally cut for example VIT or excise taxes But we do recycle for example windfall profits from our two main refineries So we take six hundred million and we recycle them into a voucher to help vulnerable households with the supermarket purchases So I would argue that there is a template. Yes for a progressive Approach whether you label it, you know In our case it comes from the center-right because we passionately believe in the power of innovation and the strength of the of the private economy But at the end of the day Greece is interesting because in this upcoming election Greeks will compare between four years of the previous government Which was in my mind, you know a populist government that didn't really do the country much good and four years of our government So if we are going to win as I believe we we will it will be a vote of confidence But I think it's also an election that should be noticed outside The borders of Greece because many democracies are struggling with similar dilemmas. So the old cleavages You know right versus left in my mind are no longer as relevant as a distinction between the more authoritarian populists and more pragmatic Progressive Democrats. I think this is the real dividing line today in in in many Western democracies now one of the things fueling populism almost everywhere in the West and Greece had this issue front and center was immigration How have you dealt with it? Why do you think that that? That issue has not become as dominating as it was. I think that's a good question Although in Greece immigration became a big problem back in 2015 when the previous government adopted an open border policy I'll give you an interesting statistic in 2015 75 percent of all illegal migrants who entered Europe entered through Greece in 2022 that number dropped to 5 percent so we've reduced our our immigration flows by almost 90 percent and We said that we will protect our borders But we will do so in a humane manner and I can tell you for it because we do get criticism on this issue that by protecting our borders At land but in particular at sea we are putting less lives at risk the fewer people you have in the sea trying to cross Into in degrees of fewer accidents you you will have so I think we've been good at Eradicating the smugglers networks and if you look at our islands now When we came to power on a single island Lesbos, which is a big island. They had 25,000 Migrants and refugees refugees on that island alone. It was a part of cake now You know less than a thousand so the local communities are happy But it also gives us sort of a breathing space to work more on proper integration policies we've cleared the backlog in terms of our asylum applications and We also tell people if we if you give you asylum don't move to Europe if you want to stay in Greece There will be jobs in Greece. We are faced with the same, you know labor shortage than many other Countries or unemployment is coming down. It has come down by 6% and we already have labor shortages for example in agriculture So I think we have imposed a tough but fair Migration policy and right now if you look at the public debate in Greece Migration is really a non-issue but There seems to be that seems to be part of the formula for a centrist pragmatic government to not allow Immigration to turn into an issue. Yes, because otherwise because otherwise you will fuel the You know the the extreme right in Greece the way we position ourselves is You know liberal in the economy progressive on social policies, but rather patriotic when it comes to foreign policy Defense we spending war on defense We have a difficult neighbor. I inherited a situation where Our armed forces had not received any significant investments for more than Than a decade. So our defense posture is important in our part of the world. So, yes I think this sort of patriotic Liberal progressive approach and you can actually do all three. I don't see any inherent ideological contradictions in what I'm Describing to you. I think you have a case that you can actually appeal Outside the the narrow outside your party base and I was actually successful in bringing people to the party That never had voted for a center-right party in in the past and I hope I'll be able to replicate that in the coming elections Now you face a geopolitical storm in Europe. How has the Russia-Ukraine war affected you? It has affected all of us on numerous fronts. First of all I hear sometimes lots of criticism about, you know, how Europe has reacted this Europe really in decline. I Am very much against this logic Because I think it's wrong. I think in Ukraine. We stood the ground in Greece Greece was is a country that has historical ties to Russia cultural religious ties but we were very clear from the beginning we want to be under and we will be on the right side of history and We've supported Ukraine. We supported it on all fronts including with Military equipment and I'm convinced we did the the right thing But of course the big impact for Europe has been energy in particular the price of gas I think we were very naive in in Europe for many years our over dependence on on Russia Caused us huge problems and I think we were in that case were also slow to react I was the first to advocate for a cap on the price of natural gas started back in March finally convinced You know the council and the commission to adopt it in December since then Not only for that reason I want to be honest, but the price of gas has collapsed had we been able to move earlier We would have saved ourselves a lot of money and we would have not given the opportunity To Russia to make money out of limited supply of gas but at exorbitant prices. So I think the one if there's one good thing that comes out of this This horrible war it's that it will push the green transition At a faster pace it will force us to diversify our supplies of gas Greece has a very important role to play We are on we are a sea country. We're investing in our LNG facilities We want to bring in gas Into Europe through Greece. I was speaking for example now the president of Moldova We want to help our our Balkan neighbors with we help Bulgaria as Supply them gas so we want to be a provider of energy security For our region as they diversify as these countries diversify away from Russian gas But at the end of the day, we know that renewables are the cheapest most environmentally friendly but also geopolitically safe Choice so I think what what you will see is is an even bigger push Towards renewables right now what I see there in Europe is a massive Energy subsidies I mean I'm talking Europe wide to the tune of almost six hundred billion dollars this year And and there still is a real reluctance to invest in for example natural gas Because of a sense that it's fossil fuels yet You do need the energy today. Wouldn't it make sense to invest in actual in in natural gas facilities? I think I think we had this debate at the at the European Council Some some people thought that you can move from fossil fuels in particular cold to renewables At the flick of a switch it was a fantasy. It was wrong. It is wrong We will need natural gas for the foreseeable future But investments that will make a natural gas also need to be hydrogen ready For example, we just I was just in northeastern Greece were We laid the we started an investment in a new natural gas electricity plant That will actually cover the Balkans, but it is hydrogen ready. So when we invested you Natural gas infrastructure, we need to think what will come after natural gas But we're also starting serious exploration work in Greece. The eastern Met has natural gas. We know that there's gas at Cyprus There's gas in in Israel this gas in Egypt that could be gas in Greece now working with ExxonMobil and You know by the very soon We will know if there's something meaningful there that we can actually Extract so I don't necessarily see these These these two trends competing in the short to medium term we're still far away from having the sort of storage investments and Technology to replace You know natural gas as as base load and of course the same is also true for nuclear Nuclear is also going to be part of the mix. We're not a nuclear country. We will never have nuclear reactors But we're not going to hit net zero without Nuclear in 2050, but yet you say you won't build one. It's difficult to start a nuclear Business from scratch, especially in a country where it's going to be even more expensive because of earthquakes We're looking at, you know, the new small modular reactor technology is interesting If there's a breakthrough there, maybe we could contemplate it For the moment, it may make more sense to import You know electricity from Bulgaria, Romania, they have an install based of nuclear European Union and and Russia and sanctions You know there are concerns that yes Europe is united now, but over time as the cost rise Will its citizens be willing to bear those costs? You've been privy to all the conversations. Do you worry about that? No, I don't for two reasons first of all Because I think we've seen the worst In terms of the gas prices. It was what we had to go through was horrible in terms of The spiker prices of money we had to spend things are better There still may be volatility, but I doubt we will see the highs that we saw in 2022 this means that there will be less pressure in terms of inflation and less need to subsidize our Energy bills and the second is because we see that our support is actually meaningful that it can turn the tide and We I think we have a Moral but also a Geopolitical obligation to continue supporting Ukraine and in the case of Greece. I would argue for one additional reason We don't want to set any precedents In terms of aggressive revisionist powers. I think that they can thinking that they can expand at the expense of other powers without Without suffering massive consequences So you you're raising a subject that I wanted to bring up Greece is full of beautiful islands. One of them is castellaristo Mm-hmm. I imagine you would not want people to vacation there right because is it is there a danger? You will go to war with Turkey over this tiny island We will not go to war with Turkey and although we have We've witnessed a lot of tension over the past three years Castellaris only is only one of the beautiful, you know, Greek Greek islands and Speaking of vacationing we've had a fantastic tourism season in 2022 and it looks like we will have a bumper year again in 23 and of course tourism is very important for our economy but look we should be able to sit down with Turkey as Reasonable adults and resolve our main difference, which is a delimitation of maritime zones in the Aegean and the eastern Mediterranean It's a complicated issue because of the geography of the Aegean But we've been able to resolve similar problems with our neighbors We did it with Italy. We did it with Egypt and with Albania We're contemplating taking the issue to the international court and let the court decide on our behalf As long as you agree on the playbook and the playbook is you resolve your problems according to international law And in particular the United Nations Convention on the law of the seas You don't provoke and necessarily provoke your neighbors. You open keep channels of communication open And I think it's also never helpful to sort of weaponize foreign policy for domestic reasons It's usually not a good approach because you end up poisoning your public opinion and I'm more concerned with you know because there's a lot of You know noise in Turkey about you know the grease, you know building up its its own forces And I and I ask does anybody reasonably believe that the Greek islands are a threat to the Turkish mainland or is it more Realistic to believe that the Turkish mainland is a threat to the Greek islands, especially keeping in mind the Cyprus story in 1974 we had an invasion and you know a third of the island is still occupied So I think that after the elections It's interesting that they will take place around the same time in both countries. I don't know which government will emerge Out of Turkey, but Certainly, I think there are ways of lowering the tension working on issues of common interest agreeing to disagree But even if we agree to disagree we can do so in a civilized manner We don't need to be we don't need to you know threaten each other Or engage in overflights or other very provocative activities at risk increase the risk of an accident Do you think president Erdogan wants to resolve these issues? I've spoken with president Erdogan many times Although we've had our you know, we've had our very very difficult moments I don't think that I do not consider it impossible to find a solution with president Erdogan you you said in a Previous interview that first he has to give up his Ottoman fantasies. Yeah, I mean that's important because at some point There are issues which are simply off the table We cannot discuss the issue of sovereignty of Greek islands We cannot accept for example the fact that Turkey signs a memorandum of understanding with Libya that denies Crete Any right to maritime zones these are completely unacceptable premises So if we narrow the discussion to the real issues, yes We can find a solution, but if we broaden the discussion to issues that I'm not willing to discuss then we cannot have a discussion President Erdogan is currently holding up Sweden's membership in NATO your influence as I understand it the main issues with Sweden Greece has been a member of NATO from the from the beginning Do you think his objections are valid? No And I think he's not he's not helping the Alliance At a time when we need to be rock-solid But I also need to point out that Turkey is not imposing any sanctions on Russia It's the only NATO country that is not imposing sanctions on Russia Which is also initial because there's significant sanctions leakage So, you know, I understand that you know every country has a right to formulate its own Foreign policy, but I do need to point out that when it comes to Making sure that the Western Alliance strong You know Turkey is not exactly consistent with what all the other NATO Member States have done and Finland and Sweden apart from the fact that They have made a difficult decision to abandon, you know Decades of neutrality to join NATO will also be valuable additions to the Alliance Do you do you believe that I mean you think about this in terms of you come from a background in markets and such It seems very unlikely that the sanctions against Russia are going to be lifted anytime soon so we are in a world where Russia is simply isolated from the world economy and The entire the energy markets global commerce will just have to adjust to that, right? Exactly. This is this is what's happening I mean, and I think this is regardless of what will happen and we all hope that the The world will will stop because it's horrible what's happening and every day people lose young young You know young people in Ukraine do their lives, you know defending the country, but I think Russia's isolation from the world economic order is a Is going to be a long term Pattern for example, I don't think anyone will Even if something miraculously were to happen on the world to stop I don't think that Russia will find that many customers for its gas The future everyone is is looking to diversify and diversify in the long term not just in the short term When you think about this issue, you know, the Europe has been very United and in lockstep really with the United States in confronting the issue of Russia How do you think Europe will react? To America's increasingly belligerent views on China First of all with Your right to point out that Ukraine has strengthened the transatlantic bond but there are some Some other issues which have caused turbulence You know China is a difficult problem and But I do and I do sense and my belief has always been that of course China is a strategic Competitor arrival on many topics, but there are issues the world needs to work with China Such as climate the climate issue cannot be resolved if we don't bring anybody On on board and in that sense China's rule is important But there's also another issue which in my mind is is more imminent And it's causing us a lot of headache in Europe and that is the inflation reduction act Which is an important piece of legislation in terms of driving the US Towards carbon neutrality, so it's good from from that perspective, but it's causing us a lot of headaches because it's also a protectionist Legislation and I'm sure that Europe will need to come up with a with a response We already had our response to covert Which was significant and in my mind a milestone for Europe the next generation you find what we call the recovery and resilience Facility 750 billion euros if you just look at Greece 31 billion for Greece alone 19 billion in grants and the balance in low-interest loans. We've already received 11 billion This is a lot of money to invest in digital in green In skills in in competitiveness issues, but I would imagine that there will be a response or the I would say there should be a response to the IRA but Do you worry you're right that the United States has taken measures that are Flatly protectionist by America provisions and things like that if Europe put some place a series of provisions that are flatly protectionist Aren't we going towards a world that is very different from the one that people wanted to be in? I think more open more. I think I think you're I think you're right I think that there are ways to work around the legislation in terms of how it's implemented I understand the point made by many of my US friends that this was not done You know to punish Europe, but certainly there are consequences for Europe Maybe in the implementation of the legislation there are ways to work to work around this But at some point we also have a responsibility to protect our own Industrial base and if we talk to companies that tell us look frankly, you know with the incentives that were in place I mean I'm contemplating moving my production for Europe to the US We're not just gonna we can't just sit at the look at this problem and the solution for it is not just to relax state-aid rules Because if we were to just do that The big beneficiaries are going to be the big economies if you look at state-aid, you know post-covid 50% 50% of all state-aid went to Germany When we relax the COVID state-aid rules, so It is important that we keep the cohesion of Europe In tact and that is why Intend them with the relaxation of state-aid, which I think is going to happen I think we need a bigger European facility in similar to what we did with with COVID to add additional firepower to invest more specifically in clean tech You have been a successful businessman you and I think fair to say a successful politician which was harder There's no comparison Yeah, I mean politics is extremely complicated. It's especially in times of crisis We had to we had to go through Very sort of difficult challenges, you know, you know, because if you in our case It was not just COVID in Ukraine. We also had migration and Turkey. So we had the whole the whole package But at the same time it's a tremendously rewarding job when you when you see, you know, real results And when you improve people's lives at the end of the day, we're in the solutions business and If anything, I hear a lot of talking Davos about, you know business being though in the solutions business But we've proven that politics we also need to be able to deliver Deliver real results and be Rather pragmatic in our inner approach. That's where the business background can be helpful if you aspire to be a politician but the last three and a half years have been Challenging extremely challenging sometimes very difficult very painful when you have to deal with issues such as COVID where, you know, lives are at at stake very stressful, but at the end of the day when you look back At at your record when you make your case to the people to be reelected if you feel good with yourself about The fact that you've tried very hard You've done your best you've given it your best you acknowledge your mistakes because mistakes were made You sleep well at night and that's very very important when you have to run a campaign Prime Minister pleasure to have you. Thank you for it. Thank you very much