 Hwyl fawr, wrth gwrs, roes i'r tîm ar gyfer y dyfodol i'r edrych yn gyfamol o'r edrych yn gyfer. Dydyn ni'n wedi'n cwrw'r Lluys Peninton – Lluys yng Nghymru Ar Ysgol Mwrddol Llywodraeth ar Osford University Press. Lluys, rydyn ni'n gweithio. Hi. Rydyn ni'n ddau fod yn ymdweud gyda'i chi bwysig i'r hynol, dwi'n cwrw'r hyn i'w ddweud yw. I'll try and be succinct as possible because my job is quite a Michael. So hi, I'm Louise Pennington, the professional development lead for primary and secondary at OUP, Oxford University Press. I'm involved with everything from Numicon, the primary maths resource through to secondary science, everything to do with referring to research, good practice and that we kind of use that to put into planning and delivery of professional development. Now for people that don't know, what is what is Numicon? So Numicon is the reason why I work for OUP. It's a primary maths resource which utilises quite a strong pedagogy based on Brunus CPA, so the concrete pictorial abstract approach, but actually uses some really tactile manipulatives to make children explore and unpick mathematical concepts. So it's a really great resource and I found that in primary teaching myself. Used it in my own classroom and then within 18 months we had it across schools. Was that teacher research? It was interesting. My first experience of Numicon was when my son brought it home coincidentally and there he was, you know, where I had a bit of fun but also hopefully learning maths and actually he is developing that classic. He loves, he's great at maths but his love for it is a bit kind of hit and miss and that's perhaps where that kind of stereotype of I'm not good at maths evolves. You've got a passion for CPD as well, haven't you? How has that evolved? I think it's probably evolved from my own experiences and chances and opportunities that I was afforded as a younger teacher. So I've continued to develop myself professionally, so I've continued to study beyond my degree but I was also, you know, led in my second teaching job. I was a Senco and senior leader, so I led professional development in school there but I also was a lead maths teacher for local authority and so worked with and supported and collaborated with other teachers in other schools and that's kind of where it all started. And before the pandemic you obviously around the country? Yeah, and abroad I missed a trip to New Zealand actually last Easter which I'm still not there. I've worked with teachers and gone into schools so hopefully I'll be able to get myself back there. Okay, so we'll come back to the Numicon and CPD. Cosh and I always ask people I work with is describe your 16 year old self, what we like at school? I was good at school, I wasn't a problem child. I had that perfect mix of social and study so I think I balanced the two quite well and I obviously did just enough work to make sure I got what I needed but I think is a skill. But I've continued to, you know, I do see the social side of education quite a lot and that's why I enjoy continuing my own learning I think. And what happened after school? A level was in the same school so I studied at a selective comprehensive school in Oldham. The selection part was church related and that was in Oldham Manchester. I stayed on to my A levels which was a really eclectic mix of subjects actually. I did some humanities, some science and English language and then from there I obviously went to university. And what did you study at university? I did a primary Bachelor of Education with honours and my major was environmental studies. My second subject was foundation maths so I was a bit worried if I'm honest about teaching mathematics at that primary age range because of my own experiences at school I think. So my heart warms when people go into degree, that teacher training degree, you know, I know it's a few years back whereas you kind of teach first methods now but that's very reassuring. So what happened next? Where was your first placement? Where did you start teaching? We had some brilliant placements actually. We had a special school placement and that sparked my interest in no additional and sometimes more complex needs which I came back to and that was what I studied for my master's degree. My first placement really was in the middle of Toxteth. I don't know if you know anything about that. I don't know Toxteth. So that's in Liverpool and it was just not too long after that they'd had some quite famous riots there and that school Ross was that was my first step into a professional role you know as in not being at school myself. The children had a breakfast club and it was you know quite some time ago. The staff were really focused on the community. They had shoes lined up some of the children came in with their shoes on. It was quite a tough school but very very well led and that opened my eyes a lot I think. I thought if I could teach here and manage my first placement I think I'll be well placed. And you've always taught in the north west of England? Yes. Rownt Manchester area, Rochdale Manchester and into Oldham yes. Okay so really really interesting. So how did you get in you know you mentioned the CPD you know your lead maths type role. How has that evolved to a point where you're now with a Oxford University press? So that's back to Numicon so I obviously had a love of Numicon found it worked in school and then I was really wanting to be trained as a trainer so I could train other people and eventually my role moved me into working for the special needs service and I was able then to to access their professional development so I was trained in how to train others for Numicon and that's where it started really so I was working in my local authority I was able to train schools in my authority so for me at that point I was a specialist teacher looking at maths difficulties and so I would often you know design a programme of intervention or recommend schools would use Numicon and other things to support the children with their sticking points and then I joined the consultancy team because OUP has a team of consultants that and what year was this roughly how um no you're talking Ross uh probably 2012-ish okay um and then um I was working more and more for them then I started to go a lot of the place and deliver training and then this role well my previous role was the Numicon professional development leader so I applied for that I thought that was right up my street and then I joined the team so before the pandemic what what was a kind of a normal week or month look like for you I guess similar to yours there isn't one um so I'd often be in Oxford one or two days a week that's for me that's a 400 mile commute round trip sometimes take eight or nine hours depending on me and one and so I'd often stay over one night in Oxford I would be in schools the rest of the time or working at home so there wasn't a typical rhythm but I really like that actually apart from managing childcare yeah I bet but that that that kind of joy of visiting lots of schools yeah you can put a price on that can you I think to see um how schools work to work with teachers you know to discuss things and to to work with them over time particularly that sustained professional development which you know um is is the gold standard really um but just yeah to be in at different schools um to be on learning walks to work with SLTs to talk to teachers and and kind of you know continue to work with them I think it's such a crucial part of your own development yeah what's your favourite part of working with schools different schools variety I think um I mean every I've been working in so many different settings and picked up so many hints and tips myself and different styles and ways of doing things so I think that variety definitely the fact that I've built a really broad network um and connections with other people um and to see how different schools run because you know that they're very individual aren't they they run so differently they they definitely are um and if I just pop back to numercon you know my knowledge is very limited is it expensive how do you implement it into your curriculum how do you teach it day to day that's a great question I think it's relatively inexpensive I suppose it depends how much you buy some schools you know buy just the shapes the plastic shapes some schools will buy you know the other things because our kits have so many other things in says quies and air rods and things like that and some schools would buy the teaching resources as well and so it either can can really easily integrate with any kind of resource that schools use or program that they use or they can use numercon as their program to deal with them so it's really flexible which I think is a real positive and also through curriculum changes the numercon pedagogy doesn't change some things get moved around in different year groups and that that kind of continuity is really careful but it's quite solid in terms of the research and pedagogy behind it and so I think for me that that shows it's done to test it out. I've got a couple other questions so could could you tell this to us a little bit more about the research on numercon but and also can you use it in other subjects I guess we know that maths is everywhere but how have you seen schools use it in other aspects of school life? That's a really great question I think it particularly in the early years it permeates quite a lot of other areas of development and particularly when you're trying to use maths across the curriculum and I think that's that's quite key um I think I've oh Oxford University use it as well I believe in the engineering department and maths department don't ask me Ross what they do because it's well above my own capabilities so it is used in secondary schools as well particularly special needs and maths as you've said and it basically it just makes those concepts visible you will have seen if your son's brought things home how it's you know if he's brought the shapes home it looks like plastic shapes so when you put them in sequence in the odd you can see the number system it becomes visible and it you know it comes alive and then those little shapes are weighted so a two and a two and a three where they're the same as the five so that's quite useful thinking about algebra later on it is useful yeah so I think it's it's got a variety of uses obviously predominantly in mathematics but engineering definitely in the university um I've been told um about the research what what is the research study it did start as a research project actually in Brighton and Hove um it was quite um a longitudinal-ish study um with some teacher researchers and um and you know professor of mathematics and I think that that numicon was born out of that research and actually it is homegrown it's from the UK you know it was it was used across Brighton and Hove in extensively in the 80s and 90s um and so the write-up and the publication of that was what led to the numicon shapes being being paid and so have you got any uh is there any stats on how many schools use numicon um we have our own metrics I guess and it shows that probably 80 odd percent of schools have numicon resources in school um if we are honest they don't all use it to its full potential and even just yesterday I was on a phone call with a school who said they have loads of numicon but it's in the cupboards and so they wanted to they wanted some inspiration as to how to get it out and start using it so give me two or three tips what are the two or three tips to get it out of the cupboard what would you recommend yes so depending on where you're teaching so for early years basically tip it in your sandal water start there right um for key stage one definitely around number concepts and number bonds which is really key you know schools can use that um quite easily but also around those numbers to 20 their structure and how they're how they're built and then for key stage two I think people get quite surprised at how well it's used for fractions decimals and percentages so I think interesting yeah now I want to switch to workload which is a passion of mine um and I'll move away from numicon slowly but um can numicon save people a bit of workload headache is there other you know what kind of resources come with the the pack what does the Oxford University Press provide in terms of cpd to reduce that burden yes is the answer I think for us when we start to look at products um either you know revisions of products or development of products teacher workload and ease of use is obviously central to to what um publishers do and so I think for us what we've tried to do is we've tried to put everything in one place so we've made in the last other pandemic we've made all the teaching resources digital and so schools who have the subscription for numicon they've got all the teaching resources there they've got the lesson planning it's all done there's long medium and short term plans there could be a curriculum coverage we've also linked it to some of the key things that schools use so other products or programs that schools often use um we have linked numicon to that for them so we don't have to do any matching or searching around for what type of activity you can use it for so we are continually working on that and it's really important to me um having spent so long in the teaching profession to the central to to what we believe that you know we have to keep that workload down it's it's so crucial to you know to avoid burnout of teachers and everything else so yes I was going to just pick up on that so in terms of the kind of resources you provide the things that you see in schools you know you've got that kind of and plus the international work you do you've got quite a good oversight in terms of the successes and challenges um what would you say are the happier schools what are they doing and and and what would you say would be a fix for the schools that might be struggling I think that's a great question and if we're still talking about workload and I think the key thing that happy schools do is they continually ask why why are we doing this why do we need to do this what's the benefit of it and I think that sometimes there's a lot is done because it has always been done or because it worked previously in that way and I think I mean even just this week I've talked to a teacher who's rewriting planning because it isn't on the planning format that the school use and I was saying it's all there for you it's there it's done we've done it so isn't there a way you can just annotate it or can you just like lift it across and drop it in here it's that it's sometimes just like please please don't be afraid to ask why and that professional conversation around the benefits of some of the processes that schools that's an interesting one because I know a lot of primary schools do the kind of purple and green kind of tickle pen type methodology for marking and you know I'm not a primary teacher you were so you know does it work is there any academic research to support it is it a workload issue what what are your views on that particularly I always have the wrong pen in my hand at the wrong time the wrong colour I'm a big advocate of trying to give whole class feedback and verbal feedback I think feedback in the moment has so much more impact than after the event when people haven't quite remembered what it is they were thinking or doing or how they made a mistake so I think for me you know if we can work the room and try to give you know timely feedback within the lesson then I think all that that onerous marking doesn't you know doesn't give us as as much as the input that we've been spending and you know in some of those unhappier schools that you've visited what's the kind of reoccurring thing that pops up uh too many meetings so before school during school after school consistently early yeah consistently early meetings and consistently late meetings lots of procedures that people haven't questioned in terms of the impact and you know lots of in-depth planning and reinventing of the wheel really I think okay and then also sometimes that the way that teachers feel that they're continuing being watched and judged and that that kind of lack of professional trust and I think sometimes that comes when schools are on a journey of rapid improvement but actually I think that sometimes to lose professional trust means that you get less out of people and they get more stressed don't they yeah no I've slowly you know in my own kind of studies and my interests you know really I'm picking culture and autonomy and I think from traveling to schools you really do start to see it um to articulate it it's the harder part I suppose yeah um now Oxford University Press apart from publishing materials what else does it offer teachers um another great question so one of the things that I that attracted me to working for OUP if I'm really honest was their charitable mission they um put a lot of money back into development of resources or content or support for teachers that is free at the point of delivery so I think that to me is crucially important they are not just on that treadmill of churn for for financial gain they spend a lot of time and effort looking at the teacher stresses teacher workload well-being looking at what would help for a particular issue that's arisen and we do a lot of professional development and have a lot of free resources we work so hard the pandemic pushing out for parents as well pushing out resources linking to bbc um you know the bbc bite size content we have put so much um we put the the parent workbook for numercom we just we kind of wrote it really quickly and put it up out online um for free downloadable you know printable shapes and things to do with numercom we tried really hard I think that part of OUP is really important to me ethically um in terms of you know that we're trying to support with a lot of free content you know we have webinars you know continually that are free to access for for educators and yes I think that side of the business I think is really so tons of stuff um I'll have to ask how was how was um the pandemic for you you know homeschooling and those types of things how was it horrific I think for someone who's who's used to being out and about a lot being in schools being abroad traveling um even just my you know my commute just to do that is a full day um I've gone from that to sitting in my kitchen for 15 months now the office is not open um they have a task force working on you know the responses because obviously OUP is a global company our offices in China were hit quite early on um with the COVID and so they've had a global task force and they've worked really hard and been really good at keeping everybody informed and they've had really strict and stringent safety measures in place for their staff and also for the customers that we work for so the result is that we've all been sat at home for 15 months and it's been difficult but I think you see then how strong teams are and how innovative and supportive and forward thinking we are you know to kind of stop regroup and start to change the way we do things so quickly um so and you and I will both know that when you work outside of a kind of school setting school leadership setting you learn insights from you know the business world I suppose in some respects yes um so kind of you know given that that you've been involved with OUP for you know 10 12 years what kind of new things have you learned that you would have benefited from as a teacher or a school leader I think that's a really good question I do say this a lot actually one of the things that I have really found challenging but really interesting working with OUP is having the day-to-day working insights of how marketing and sales and publishing works I mean you know to know that as a teacher to to kind of understand that that business side I think is is quite important and I think a lot of you know I do run a business I run the professional development business for the UK for OUP and I think it has helped me develop business skills which I think you know more and more now school leaders need they do need that the budget side the you know that kind of planning and strategic work and I think that side of of my job has brought my you know brought a lot of skills to me in terms of you know broadening out what I know and understanding can do really interesting um now um I've got a uh moving away from OUP and Numicon um you know to just generally you know working through the pandemic how have your how's your work adapted you know I suspect lots of zoom meetings you know those types of things but give us a kind of general insight into you know the challenges of lockdown and homeschooling but given that your your own children might be at school well they are um yeah how how is your kind of week shaping out the kind of things that you're juggling the things that you do just give us a little bit insight into how you work yes so um I mean this week's a brilliant example we've had um meetings through the day on teams um so we had quite a lot of board meetings of product development meetings they happen actually really well on teams and they are really succinct and and they don't overrun and actually more people can come and observe I just think they run actually we're going to carry on doing those I think long term they don't overruns a great great great success but then you can they have a time term you can just drop in at certain times and listen to a particular part that's that's interesting to you or part of what you're working on then you can drop out you don't have to like get up and leave the room you just you just leave so there's some really good positives um I think it allows us for me personally not to have that eight hour to nine hour round trip if I'm needed in the office for something that's meant that my working day is much more productive for not traveling around um and I think for professional development we had when that lockdown first hit all of our professional development was face to face in schools or in a venue and we had to really quickly regroup and think and myself and my consultancy team have worked incredibly hard on improving our tech and different systems of working so they've all some of them have made their own things at home that can start they can demonstrate things with they've invested you know you come and things like that how it's going to you know post pandemic you know my my son keeps reminding me that the black death lasted seven years but but how do you think it's going to change your work and OUP you know you know office based physical cpd or a bit of a blended approach yeah I think why do you think that's going I think for us we have learned a lot and actually what we've learned is that some things work really well digitally in that blended approach we are definitely not going to stop doing digital professional development it's a lot of people have said to us it's been much more accessible to them um you know they're not having to leave school or have the long journeys to come somewhere or it's you know it's more accessible than having using a day's inset so we're going to keep that offer um and we are looking into and developing blended approaches as well and then but we are reserving face-to-face for where it adds value and where our customers want that because I think you know you've mentioned numeric on it and I have a lot but I think for something like that where it's so hands-on and practical um that sometimes there are things that work exceptionally well when you're in a room with with teachers and can work nearly as well digitally with you know with all the technology that's available to us so I think yes we are looking and in terms of office work we're in the process now of looking at almost like what should and could what must we be in the office for what should we be in the office for but actually it's not going to fall apart if we don't and then what could we be in the office for but actually we can continue to work at home right nice um so we're starting to work on that now yeah I'm just thinking you know those types of questions and thinking you know the challenges for teachers we have to be in school well I say we have to we you know parents need to go to work so they need to send their kids to school that's the challenge so we need teachers in school but it does throw up lots of questions for the future of education um general websites for OUP or new econ where can teachers go to just generally find out more where should they start yeah I mean this we have our um Oxford primary website and everything that is on there but I think for me as well there's the Oxford our website which you know it's for parents and teachers and there is a lot the parents sign is completely free and there's so much information resources blogs on there for primary education for maths for English but year group specific things recipes activities you know things to do at home it's an absolutely brilliant website I think that's something that I'll definitely flag up and the teaching side poppy heads okay well we'll mention that now um regular listeners will never kind of push in the 20 minute barrier so I'm going to start to fire some quick questions to you no pause hesitate that timmy mallet type approach um I'll start off easy um what project are you working on today tomorrow what's on your desk oh I'm glad you asked me that actually at the moment I'm working on a really exciting project which OUP has just launched a teacher consultation paper for it's called the oxford smart curriculum at the secondary schools this project has collaboration at its heart collaboration between OUP practicing teachers subjects and experts and it really harnesses that collective expertise and so it's a really exciting thing to be involved in um for me that that's going to be really great I think it's got six key pillars at its heart for hearing a curriculum pathways right participation responsive teaching and learning so it's really focused in on that creativity oh and wonder and I think anything that um that does that for me you know I can absolutely get behind okay good um finish this sentence if you were if I was education secretary I would um invest in teacher professional development okay um piece of advice for thinking about taking the leap into doing something like you in terms of your work read read the research of things at the teacher development trust the curia research national college for school leadership there's a lot of interesting and quite conflicting research around teacher professional development in particular and then I just think that plan that you know I read your blog just last night around that you know what works in professional development so there's lots of little quick things quick wins there around predictive time and building a plan explore observing models and examples reflect on your practice so is that plan there and I think I'd direct them to your little summary of research there as well thank you what book are you reading oh um I'm quite embarrassed to say that it's a running book I've been reading this is book it's kind of been a bit of a mission I've been reading it for a long time so it's called why we sleep by Matthew Walker I don't know if you've read that no I don't know that one but it's a book which is blend it's um it's a blend of kind of science and um cognitive stuff and sleep um science but it was recommended to me by 90 year old doctor on a train to London he waved it at me instead of everybody in our generation needs to read it um so I think everything from behavioural insights the animal world scientific research on the brain advice and warnings about how we should respect our circadian rhythm so it's a brilliant book that's really interesting yeah because I'm I'm reading a lot on memory at the moment uh no I know you're in northern are you a chips and gravy girl or a chips and beans or peas what what goes on top of your chips right that's that's proper northern okay next question are you a hunter or a gatherer I'm a hunter okay great um next thing I would like to ask is if you weren't doing your dream job what would you be doing what's that abstract crazy thing I wanted to be and lined myself up to be a forensic scientist oh okay interesting drop languages to focus on science as a GCSE and then found out that having asthma would stop me from pursuing that to its full extent so teaching was my second choice okay interesting now uh for listeners um louise has jumped out of a plane so louise what's your top tip for doing your first skydive don't do it no actually it was brilliant I think for me um trust trust that everything will work and don't and definitely keep your hands folded in front of you because the urge to kind of cling on is that if you're pushed out is there it's sometimes overwhelming okay um were you a better environmental science or a math teacher what were you better at in the classroom at maths actually strangely okay advice for your 16 year old self keep going okay because you mentioned that just enough earlier um biggest uh what are you most proud of in your career not in your personal life and um I think my continual personal development so my continual study I think throughout the responsibilities that adult life brings you I've still kept learning and developing whether it's reading or a formal qualification so I think I'm most proud of that um for myself and and that is a personal and professional achievement I think okay great lovely if we had 24 hours together in Liverpool what would you do where would we go what would you see what would you eat oh everything it's such an eclectic city the docks the cavern and some of the music scenes and street food and of course shopping and there's some great bars as well Ross oh well we can we can skip the shopping we'll just go for some food and some drinks there you go um who do you recommend I interview next and why oh great question I'd be keen to champion of the woman um and I can think of a whole host of brilliant women but I think for me Crystala Jamil she's an inspirational executive head teacher working in Tottenham national yeah I know Crystala do you okay well there you go yeah I know so I'll come for Crystala I shall reach out straight away um so where can you listen to find it more about you your blogs or tweets things like that yeah so Oxford Prime as I mentioned Oxford Secondary some of the things we talked about we have facebook page as well but um twitter for me um at pd louise p anything to do with gin food occasional tweets about education now um since I've moved to Yorkshire Louise I've got really into nature and surprisingly this might be uh surprised to discover I'm really getting into my flowers so I've got on a random question that I'm adding into my podcast if you were a flower what what variety would you like to be I would love to be an agapanthus right well I need to go and check out what that is because I says I suspect I've seen it um well I just need to make the reference of the net is that knowledge that not that picture and the the the name so uh approach isn't it yeah so yeah I love agapanthus I've just planted some more in my garden yesterday actually all right very nice well I'll take it out and I might plant some way own um final question um what would you hope to be your legacy um teaching I think teaching is my legacy so to have helped the contributor to a fairer more tolerant and inclusive world where everyone is valued equally and has equal opportunity and in fact I instill that in my own children so they continue on that journey of inclusion and that to be the title norm I think that would be the best kind of legacy fantastic so Louise thank you um second time lucky at the beginning uh you know for people listening I didn't press the record button but we've got through it um and it's been nice to connect you properly since I've moved up your way and I hope we can meet uh and I'm not going to try and pronounce where you live you can give me the different versions but but uh yeah I look forward to to meeting you in real life and uh taking a conversation further so uh thanks once again and keep up the good work thank you so much it's been great chatting to you thanks Louise bye now thank you see you soon bye