 Good evening and welcome back to Byline. This is a public affairs show here at Amherst Media and it's co-sponsored by the Amherst League of Women Voters. And we're continuing our journey together to understand how our new town council and our new form of government is working here in Amherst. And also from time to time we'll have our newly elected state legislators come by as well. Tonight we're going to be focusing on the bylaw review process which has had quite a history already and it's been a very very short time. Our government is less than four months old and prior to that the interim if you will or acting bylaw review committee did some work over the summer and we have with us as our guests this evening the chair of the Amherst bylaw review committee and he served as the interim chair or the chair of the temporary committee whatever you want to call it and now he's once again taken up that mantle and we also have pat the angel is one of our town councilors who is a member of the goal committee governance organization and legislation and she sits on the committee with Bob Richie and so we want to talk a little bit now and get up to speed so let's start at the very beginning if there's a that's an opening line of a song I want so let's see bars there we go so let's see the charter required that the bylaws be reviewed and our town manager appointed you for round one tell me about round one well round one lasted for about seven months and it consisted of a committee of three people myself Bernie Kubiak and and Ken Hagreeves at the last came around was on it initially and then we worked for for for about seven months and made a report to the elect council elect and then the council the charter does call for that committee to convene and operate and after submitting its report to the council elect we stood aside and waited for the appointment of the follow-up committee which has got the same name the same charge it's just round two as you put it now it's a committee of five okay and its purpose and focus based on the Charter's dictate is basically to bring our code of laws the general bylaws and the zoning bylaws into conformance with the new form of government they were written at a time when our legislative body was a town meeting and bylaws were adopted periodically from time to time assembled without any particular order and collected and published that way now we have to change the names of the public officials and multiple member bodies who are different under the new form of governance some provisions of the old laws referred to entities that no longer exist in those provisions had to be deleted and and basically it to render it conformity with the charter and to fully implement the charter to take this document and let it fit like a good set of clothes to the new form of government oh that's a beautiful way of putting that so Pat as I understand it you wanted to be on this committee yes why did you want to be on this committee what was attractive about it to you well for a couple of things one I'm a novice at this whole thing I've been in government really now four months and I thought although you did do some stuff earlier with the town meeting and you work on some bylaws and some things of that nature yeah but but for all intents and purposes you're new to the new government yeah and I felt like looking at bylaws minutely would help me understand how to construct them because that I think is part of my job is to take what we understand about good law and create that in our town so I wanted to know how to do that also what got me involved in any kind of town government was the creation of the sanctuary bylaw I had gotten involved with the Amherst sanctuary folks and we got together and we worked on this bylaw and then we brought it to the select board at that time and we were all like so incredibly nervous about what we were doing and you know we weren't sure even during the questioning whether it was going well and then the chief of police brought up an issue there was one section where if an officer stopped someone in their vehicle what could or should they do and we had written that they shall provide them an opportunity to be picked up and driven home etc and the chief of police this was a may shall argument and what explain what that means because some of our viewers may not be familiar with that idea well generally speaking if a law is written as muster shall and preferably shall in Massachusetts that means it must be enforced in that way no choice by the agency that's supposed to enforce that you know and that's how we had written this particular section and it was the only set of the other sections also had shell but he wasn't bothered by that but what he was saying was that an officer whether when she stops someone really needs to use her own judgment about what's happening if she has time she might wait with the person till their ride comes or bring them to a parking area so this one little word got that I really feel like it got the bylaw passing we were there the people who were presenting came over and were you know huddling in in our seats talking about yes yeah we'll do this we'll do this and I think that and really intrigued me about the about bylaws you know the minuteness or how do you create clarity and how do you create positive flexibility so that was important to me and then I went on town meeting and helped get the bylaw passed the sanctuary bylaw and that really hooked me into town and you understood through that experience the how critical the proper wording is yeah to getting first the intent very clear and then secondly to you know prescribe the parameters right big difference between may and shall it's only a four letter word excuse me one two three four five letter word and a three letter word but and but that is so and that's not how I was thinking beforehand you know and I really I don't know if I did it then but I really congratulate the chief on sticking to his guns very bad pun not intended and really fighting for that because an officer does need discretion and I think we can trust generally trust the police and so some people might say well if you did it once why are you doing it again I mean what what you described earlier was that as soon as the charter pass the town manager appointed this committee because it was consistent with the charge of the charter and you went through a process you reviewed everything that was there why do you have to do it a second time well now you know now you know why I'm so happy Pat is on the second committee it's like you have the house rough framed in the first round and then you finish the siding and you figure out the trim and the color and having somebody with Pat's attention to detail gives a second go at this text the kind of breadth and scope that we wanted to have yeah the first the first product was a was a rough cut at what we need to do now we're going back and make sure it all pieces fit together Pat's attention to the fine details of speech we render the entire new code consistent so that we use a word once with one meeting you don't come up with another word for the same thing so not only does the new code have to be consistent with the laws of the Commonwealth and that's the charter but it also within itself it has to be consistent in the way it does things so we come up with the a consistent use of words and fewer of them when possible to achieve the same to create clarity to make it make it precision precise and clear Pat you are about to say something a second well he keeps talking about well the first we started the second committee with their sixth iteration of review and that blew me away because they had already gone through it six times and yet we're still I think now we're coming up less we move fairly quickly usually but I think what we're coming up with is maybe philosophical differences with something that says or who's really intro whose jurisdiction is this and things like that and so that there is where we're calling things to go to the town lawyers and also when we present a town council we'll be sharing those issues because hopefully we're gonna move forward with them and accept them but we're gonna look at these other things the other bylaws that we're questioning and I I'm kind of excited about that part great and Bob you you were in your years you have worn many hats we learned just before the show that you were a commercial photographer and built your own camera well that's conversation for another day perhaps over a bourbon or two but the question I want to ask you is in in your service as a municipal attorney which you did for a period of time help us understand the difference between bylaws ordinances and anything else that you may be looking at perhaps rules what what are the differences what are these different tools in municipal government about well first of all more bylaws and ordinances are really two names for the same thing okay ordinances is a noun that is associated typically with cities by laws typically with towns there's nothing written in the constitution of the state statutes that call for that it's just a tradition which has had its purpose the bylaws themselves are the the source of law that are then implemented by regulations that implement so you could substitute the word law at the municipal level for bylaw right so when we hear about bylaws we're hearing about the laws of the town the laws of the town okay which which have to be consistent with the charter of the town which is our mission to make sure effectively the constitution of the town so our bylaws both general and zoning have to have consistency or non inconsistency with this constitution of the Commonwealth the statutes of the Commonwealth the charter of the town and the policies of the town and so we have this hierarchy of law that go all the way down to regulations below bylaws and policies below them and who makes regulations the regulations are made by the body that is authorized to do so so if a bylaw who authorizes them well statutes authorize them how about in our new town of government form well the our legislative body which is the council will do that so the council passes a law and passes on the responsibility to create the details of implementation in regulation right to the town manager and his staff right and they have to be within the scope of the of the law under which they are promulgated okay so that's interesting to see that progression of who makes the decision and they may not make they may not decide every detail they may create the framework which is the law but then they pass it on to another body of the government who are accountable to the council and the council accountable to the town yeah like with the people of the town tobacco usage that involves the board of health and and who else I forget right now but but those part and the police department yeah so that there are the bodies that do that and pay that's sort of their jurisdiction this touches on an important boundary that sets the outer scope of committee's charge we have to be sensitive to where is the source of the authority for example it is the prerogative of the council to establish policy for example yeah so if we come across a provision of the bylaws that could be resolved in one or two or three different ways and it's going to be driven by policy our committee needs to stand back from that and and bring it forward so that the policy level is implemented by our legislative body mm-hmm and not our committee we try to stay faithful to what has been done in the past right and when you're saying stay faithful to what has been done in the past that reminds us that the bylaws and that you are working with now were adopted by another form of legislative body our town meeting but just because the town meeting was dissolved does not mean that all the work that was done generation after generation by that town meeting is dissolved all of those laws remain in place until and unless the town council repeals them amends them or whatever so within the scope of what you're doing do you have the right to change any of what's on the document that you're reading what if you come across something that you say gee this doesn't make sense anymore and it might be that you just disagree with it but it also might be that this was done 40 years ago and it doesn't make sense today can you change it that's a good question we're charged with not doing anything we're just advising but we what you've been doing a lot of nothing man haven't you when we do nothing what we are preparing to do is to make recommendations to the legislative body so we see something that begs to be deleted we will delete it and explain when we make a recommendation of the council that you will see that this is on the books today we are recommending deleting it because that is bringing us into performance with the charter and implementing the new charter as we have been charged to recommend but you didn't actually delete it you're making a recommendation that they should consider to delete it Pat mentioned the six iterations that we went to make the document that we're working with and one of the things that we took care to do is to create an audit trail of everything we did so we take the the bylaws that we have now the next level was the same bylaws with a few obvious deletions like the town meeting procedures the next thing the next iteration would be changing town manager to let's say licensed commissioning or the select board to councilors we made that change and and then we we brought it into a new framework think of the bylaws of the town of Amherst being a collection of pieces of a mosaic each one was defined and written as if it were an isolation of the rest right what we are trying to do is to bring this mosaic into something that makes a picture and and and the pieces now fit together so that the code is a whole doesn't take the the sanctuary bylaw this other bylaw the dog bylaw the tobacco bylaw each written at different times with different language rendering some harmony in the way we express ourselves and then to express the same thing Tom meeting expressed in one way but bringing it in so that all of our expressions legislative expressions similar and and consistent and understandable but still the council will review that and make those decisions and make those decisions so everything we're doing is really like you said recommendation it's such an interesting it's one of the I think unanticipated results of a changing the form of government and creating new charter because as a former legislator I can tell you that all of the laws are in silos these go back 300 years and every so often people come in and file pieces of legislation to clean those things up they never get taken up right so I mean you can still go to jail for spitting on the sidewalk I didn't do it I wonder if we get rid of the president that way and I don't wait a minute that's going to another level of government so I just like your stand had House and Senate council had a last look at bylaws we don't have anything like that right we have as a committee use the state style legislative style manual as as our main guide and we try to stay consistent with it and we are trying as a committee to do what House and Senate council does with state legislation and bring that kind of level harmony so that state statutes go on the books that there was a there was a close family resemblance from one to the next even though they say different and when you finish this exercise you will have a document that goes to the council yeah where is it going to land on whose desk that well initially it will come to the council but I'm sure because we're going to have to look at the recommendations we'll also probably send it to the government organization and legislate governance organization and legislation legislative committee to really look at it to make sure that the bylaws as they're now written and collected are actionable they're clear and they're consistent but there is also we need to look at all of this thing all of this and share with the town council and have council members other than us also share philosophical issues legalistic issues things that we really need to look at and that needs that will be brought forward after that decision so in a sense it goes back it comes to the council moves slightly way and returns and that return is critical one of the things I was talking to Alyssa Brewer and one of the she's also on this committee along with Evan Ross yes so there were three counselors on this committee that Bob is chairing that's very important because it means three members of the council out of the 13 are already processing every decision that's being made ever excuse me every recommendation that's being made in this process so that's an important right and and Alyssa suggested a further move beyond the council in a certain sense is that after we look begin to look at it that we create a couple of working sessions that maybe includes a subset of counselors who haven't worked on the bylaws and residents who are feeling passionately about certain things or entities like the ACLU if we wanted to look at signage and or usage of the common and things like that so that we're bringing those folks together to really look at the bylaws and and hopefully really getting people curious I think I'm hoping this show will bring some people to our meetings to see what we're doing but that that curiosity we're looking in-depth at what you may be glanced at or haven't looked at before I think it would be incredibly beneficial to get all of that energy and information and thinking from across this spectrum of people and then look at what what are we going to change what will we legislate what will we you know there are certain bylaws that will just be accepted as is but what are these other issues and I think it's important that we bring it out to residents in the town and entities like ACLU because we need fresh eyes on who we are as a town how we operate as a town and this is all tied to the fact that that the charter requires that the bylaws be reviewed and it's we're now in the second iteration although the sixth draft no you're working on the seventh draft right now okay and you've got three counselors on the committee it's likely to go to gold governance organization and legislation you're on that committee the other four are not on Evans so they're gonna be three more committee counselors so six of the counselors out of the 13 will have worked on these by the time it goes back to the council for a vote and you're saying that there might be one other step in between because if we can get other people you know residents to also work on them with us when we go to and then if there is something that we really need to change because philosophically it doesn't fit with the values that we have in Amherst that that would be an easier shift and move and it gives it gives voice to people who used to have voice when there was town meeting and I think that we need to make sure that we're bringing people so it's consistent with the Charter's intention to have transparency and civic engagement right and there's no fixed hard deadline for getting this done the important thing is to get it done right we don't want to take years you made no but you made the deadline for your committee right yeah and that's all getting this right but it's going to stand for a very very very long right but I also think that if we're gonna have our work done and do the initial presentation and then the council is going to look at that and figure out what they want to look at and then bring it hopefully bring in these work sessions because I think Alyssa is right about that that then we could be moving from fall 2019 through spring 2020 and maybe have it done I'm not sure whether every legislative piece I don't I don't even know what those would be right now I'd like to punctuate what she said we're not really working to a finished product our committee will have a product to deliver to the council the council will have a product that it will further produce into something else years ago I drafted a small piece for the Attorney General on how to draft bylaws and one of the things that I said a town or city ought to do before ordinances of bylaws is to have it run by the people that are mainly affected by it so if you have a bylaw for example that is going to come down in its application and negatively or positive or shock the class of people get the inputs from those people because you don't bring those to the table they have to be brought by the people are affected yeah so the follow-up that the pad has described the council's intention to be is exactly the implementation of that recommendation well eight years ago so what I get out of this is that your committee is working on improving the clarity consistency etc of the of our bylaws you're also identifying places where current life may be in conflict with what those bylaws say and you may be recommend making some recommendations for how to fix some of those and in other cases you may just be pointing out that there may be a need to take a look at then once it goes to the town council the town council has to decide by what process they will take the questions that have been raised because presumably most people are going to be comfortable with the consistency and clarity of it it's the question of where there may be some policy tweaks or even changes beyond a tweak meaning a significant change and what's the process going to be for doing that and again this is an unusual process because you don't normally sit down and look at your bylaws going all the way back to try to determine if they're still relevant and so this is a really interesting exercise both in providing clarity and consistency which is so important for people to understand the rules i think legislative flexibility of the council is a tremendous asset and i think it it demonstrates the kind of facile movements possible under a new form of governance than the old so if there was a problem that we discern going forward these are remediable in short term rather than long term so having that kind of plan for the follow-up is i think the essential icing on the cake and also we should probably be part of the recommendations i mean we have to do that as a group that we bring to the council so even if this ends up taking 18 months of the first two years of the council it is an exercise which is enormously powerful and you will have a foundation that's totally up to date and modern it may take you a little while beyond those 18 months to actually act on all of those recommendations you may decide but you'll pick up a lot of it in that first 18 months but when this exercise is complete you will have a modernized set of bylaws all of the values and decisions will be consistent with current day life and practice and if you follow what bob's saying going forward every time we write a new bylaw to make sure it's consistent that's right with the existing set of bylaws so you don't fall into disrepair again right or out of date again this will carry on for years and years and years and years this foundation that you're laying will carry on and and you'll build on that for decades and i think as follow-up when we are creating new bylaws they will go to governance organization and legislative committee to look at clarity consistency and actionability and we do that for committee charges but and we will be and since you will have studied this carefully and and two of you will have served on the committee going forward you'll be able to provide a lot of guidance to the council to make sure when you present something this is consistent with our revised bylaw as well this has been a really fascinating conversation i'm i'm really grateful you guys came in to help us understand what you're doing and and the importance of it because this is really significant work it sounds it sounds like a big yawn but it really is a lot of fun stuff it really isn't so come to the next meeting what is it yeah well listen thank you very much for joining us and you can participate show up at their meetings watch for the opportunities that may be provided as follow on for how you can engage in this process of updating and modernizing based on the recommendations of their committee as the town council considers their work thanks for joining us