 So, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and what you do? What made you go into law? How did you decide that that was kind of what you wanted to do with your life? Oh, a couple of things. My mom was interested in becoming a lawyer. She exercised a few strategies to do that. But it was later on when I was the chief of my community, I became the chief at the age of 25, and was working in about the New BC chiefs and attending meetings and whatnot. It became apparent that there was a pretty big need for trained individuals to know more about creating law and exactly what was going on. That's why I decided to go back into school. Now, did I meet Louise? Yeah. Louise, when I began working, see what year was it now? I went to law school around 1982. So, it was the late 70s or early 80s when I was working on the executive committee, actually, of the union chiefs. I was the chief and then I became elected to the executive board. In 1980, there was George Manuel was coming back from being the national brother of the chair, and he became the president of the union and the union chiefs. Around in 80, 81 in that area. And he asked me to stay on to do work with him in fisheries. I was researching on those adversaries, but we went through the Rosatija, the research department. Louise and Leslie were brought in. Louise, I think, was coming out of law school, it seems to me. She was very young. She was a really young, but she was younger. And Leslie had been hired to work for the union chiefs. And that's what I met her and Leslie. Yeah, they started working for George at the union BCI chiefs in those days. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you were doing at the BCIC at that time, and then some of the work that you did at Louise as well? Oh yeah, well, you know, when you worked for George at the union office in those days, you did everything. We used to... They had the old Gestapo machines, you know, with their own twists and like this. Put the ink in, that was really messy. And we used to have to make the minutes for the meetings and the reports. So we used to draft up George's speeches and whatnot. And people would come and they'd want to find documents, so we'd help them find documents in the resource center, the band files and whatnot. There was a lot of Indian Affairs documents that we'd gotten for the Indian Affairs and Microfusion. And we had McKenna McBride commissioner for it, all divide up into different files. So bands would come in and look at their history of when they were created and where the reserves were and that sort of thing. So I was working in that general area. And of course, there was many of us working in the office, so if you had to make photocopies, you made photocopies. If you had to make coffee, you made coffee. If you had to drive stuff all the way up to countless, you did that. So you just did whatever you were told. But you had a job description, at least I think I did. I worked in research, but you did everything for the union. When Louise and Leslie came on board, they were doing law stuff. I mean, they were actually making applications to court and that sort of stuff. So in those days, I didn't really have a lot of interaction with them and they were coming in and I certainly knew a lot of them and met them and had met Louise. And it wasn't actually until I came back from Moscow that I articles with Louise and Leslie, they were in a separate office by them from the union and they were still connected to the union and didn't work for the union. So that's when I began to actually work with them after I came back and article with them. So, yeah, then I was in their office every day as an artist and student. What court cases were you working on? Oh, golly, let's see. I remember packing boxes in for her and Stuart and the Derrickson case. I think that was in Supreme Court. It was a fishing case, it seems to me. And that one went all the way up. And I was an artist like student, right, and listening and making copies and doing a total sort of thing and sitting in court and getting messages, folding people and doing that sort of thing that artist like students do, right? Yeah, and it was always exciting working with Louise and Leslie. It was always a great learning experience, you know, to see Louise work. I think she had Max in those days, her first baby. She used to bring Max into court. I remember that. She was always like long hair, you know. I mean, when I moved to Vancouver to go to university in the early 70s, I was right out of high school at the Farming Community at Chowa. And in those days, Fourth Avenue was still strewn with all these houses that had clothes hanging at the windows and sheets on the windows and flower children running all over the place. People with no shoes on, you know. And so I got right into it. I took my shoes off, too. We never wore shoes at home anyway. It was really the end of the love hippie era, right? And Louise just looked like she had just sort of come from San Francisco, kind of. Long dress, you know. Printed dresses and sandals. And she had Max in tow and as a baby, she'd be going to court. She had long hair. Yeah, she was really cool. She was really, really cool to be with and to talk with. Yeah, she was interesting. More than interesting, she was really cool. What are some of your fondest memories during that time with working as an art thing student for Louise? Oh, just sitting in at all the meetings with the different people and listening to them. It seems to me, gosh, we were talking a long time ago about it. I think at one point they realized that, you know, you're supposed to do wills in the States, too. And they were running around trying to get into your will, too, right? And I think they actually farmed me out to a different law firm to get me some different experience, too. Because all they did was Aboriginal law. They didn't do anything else. And you're supposed to get experience in different areas. And so I ended up working in another office. I can't remember whose office it was to gain that experience, right? But Leslie and Louise, I mean, Louise, they're just on the go all the time. And I remember, I remember Louise saying to me one morning, I get in, like I was coming in from Chilliwack on the bus every morning, getting off the bus and getting to the office. She said, Steve, you got to go catch a plane. Here's a ticket, she said. And I go, Louise, what's this? You're going to go up and do your first case today in Penticton. And I said, what kind of case is this? She says, a hunting case. She said, it's an Aboriginal rights defense. There's going to be elders speaking in their language. There's going to be an interpreter. You're going to run the case through all the witnesses yourself. I go, why myself? I'm just over here at $20 for the taxi. Get going, you're playing Lees in an hour. I have to get on the taxi. She paid for the taxi. I didn't have any clothes. I flew all the way to Penticton. And who met me at the airport? Was it Jennifer, Jenny? She writes the books now. Armstrong. She met me at the airport and she said, are you the lawyer? Yeah, I'm the lawyer. No, she didn't meet me at the airport. No, I got all the way to the courthouse. And I walked in and there's no judge. There's nobody. And I finally see something. This is a small town, courthouse. He was sweeping the floor. I said, where is everybody? I was supposed to be doing a trial here. He said, are you Steve? They just waited for you. They heard your plane was a little late so they all went for coffee. I was like, okay. So I go to coffee and there's an Armstrong. She meets me there. And she introduces me to the witnesses. This is a full blown Aboriginal rights defense hunting case. Somebody who's charged with hunting at night. And Louis sends me up on my own. There's an article in the suit to do it. Don't get it in your heart if you don't win this case. But it was a great experience. That's the kind of thing she used to do. Just say go up and do it. Get up there on your feet. Start cross-examining witnesses and putting witnesses in. And putting your evidence in and all that. So I did it. And after that I was never ever afraid to appear in court. I mean, it was a great thing that she did for me actually. Well, we had lots of times with, she'd be called to go to meetings to give consultation. I went with her one time up to the Quixotonic band. Alice and Peter Smith. I remember Peter was the chief. You have to get there by a float plane or a boat way up in Guilford Island. Louise and I get there within four. There's no hotels, you see. There's no phones. And at midnight the lights go, because the power goes out. The generator, they turn it off at midnight. And Louise and I were sleeping in the house. Somebody had given us a place to build us up. And so the next day I thought, well, they're going to start the negotiations. I'm just there, sporadically speaking. And Dr. O gets there. This is the guy that was the, Owen Anderson was the regional director of Indian Affairs. We used to call him Dr. O. I don't know why we call him Dr. O. But it seems to me that's what they call him. He gets there with his plane. His plane is still running. He's only going to be there for a few minutes. Alice Smith was running the negotiations, all about logging road behind the reserve. And this company wanted access. Louise was there as the advisor. Alice said, you guys go to the store with Peter. Peter, take him to the store. So I got on a boat with Louise and I went, you went to the store? Is the store around here? You know, it took an hour and a half or something, the boat to get up there. And Louise was like, hey, I'm sitting there with this sunshine. You know, we're all going up to get a bottle of pop or something at the store. And Peter checks his mail, you know, and we come all the way back. And Owen Anderson's plane is still running. He's waiting for the leak. And that's when I learned about negotiations from this elder, Alice Smith. And it was a great time to sit there and listen to Louise eventually when we got into the whole road situation and the maps and all that. Yeah, she just let me watch and see what they were doing. It was a great lesson for me, community, watching how things worked out. There's lots of times like that. The Derrickson case, where were we? I think we were in, hmm, it seems to me we were like cantaloupes or something like that. Penticton, maybe, fishing case. And her and Stuart were in the, in the trial, actually in the trial. And listening to them talk and listening to how they would prepare their factims and go over their factomes and strike out phrases and underline stuff. And say, I'm going to change this paragraph over here. I was looking at them and listening. And then they turned around and they asked me something. They were asking me. And I remember what they were talking about, they were talking about regulations and that impact on my original title. So I gave them my views on that. They took that. They put that into their factim. I was going, I just contributed something to this case. But they weren't, they never, she never treated you like you or something less than. She was always, she always treated you really good. She felt like a part of the team. You know, it was like, it was being a good, good learning from her and being with her. I was trying to think of the words that described some of the ways she used to be in court. She was always intense in court. She's smart, smart lady. Get much by her. And she was always intense to stare right at you. And you know, it was like putting you on the spot. Boy, I wouldn't want to be a judge. I was a judge once when she was in court. But she was, she was very smart and, but intense is the word I'd use to describe the way she was. But she was always very nice to people. Nice to people that she worked with. Yeah, I used to like being with her traveling and learning from her, watching the way she did things. And it was a great, great experience. As an artist, I couldn't go to better articles, actually. I'd actually been invited to interview with Bullhauser and Tucker. When I left law school, I got a letter asking for you to go down for an interview. I assumed students must have got letters like that. I don't know. But I didn't even know who Bullhauser and Tucker was. I said, well, I was a pretty big firm in town. And I looked at it and I had an article with Louise and Adele. Because I had already rated it. I had already asked them. They said, sure, when do you get to law school? And I think I was one of their first students. I don't know if I was in their first student, but I think I was pretty near the beginning. And so I was thinking I was going to get a t-shirt. And I turned down Bullhauser and Tucker for Louise and Adele. That's a lot of great memories. A lot of great memories with Louise. And working with her later on, when I was actually in my own law practice, she used to help me throw work my way or send people my way. Because they had too much to do. I mean, Mendelkinder, they're awesome, awesome busy, right? And I remember one year, when was it? Her and Michael Jackson phoned me up. I said, Steve, you've got to come down. We need you to help us on this intervener status. And I go, well, what do you want me to do? And they said, we want you to represent the Union of B.C.A. chiefs on the intervention at the Delta Moon case. The Delta Moon case? Where at? At the B.C. Court of Appeal. I've never done any work at the B.C. Court. No worries, we'll write you a fragment for you. We just want you to bring it in and talk to us. You and Rene Taylor. Rene was a colleague of mine. She was working at the Union of B.C.A. So Rene and I looked at each other, oh my God, what are they giving us into, right? And so we went down to the Union of B.C.A. chiefs office one night. And there was Michael, there was Louise. I'm not sure the clothes there. Some of the staff was still there. And they showed us how to put the fact together for the Court of Appeal. It was just amazing. We did, I think, I don't know how late we worked. It was pretty darn late. It was early morning, we were fine. Yeah, just within a few hours we had the fact together. And I still have it, I kept it. Just as a souvenir. And then Rene Taylor and I went into B.C. Court of Appeal and spoke to, you know, sometimes the Court of Appeals don't want to hear from you, right? They just read your fact in the state. Because the Union chiefs had gotten intervener status and they wanted to raise the issue of sovereignty as a perspective for the test that they were raising. So I said, okay, we'll do it. So there it was, starting up with my back legs speaking in the Court of Appeal in the Delgma case. That's my claim to fame for the Delgma case. That's it. But Louise and I watched it and did it. I mean, it was a great experience and learned a lot. I was basically doing, I mean, just starting my practice in Cholwag and doing smaller criminal law cases. One of the cases I did work on with Louise was the Vanderby case. Dorothy Vanderby was charged with 10 fish, selling 10 fish out in Cholwag. I was doing, it was legally in case. One of the others was picking me up at home and bringing me down to the case in Surrey every day. We'd buy those little sandwiches for lunch and eat soup for lunch with Dorothy. We picked Dorothy up first, then bring her down to the case and Francis Phillips would drive me down every day. And I did all of the witnesses, I cross-examined all the witnesses that Carvel had in trial. And then Louise took it over up to County Court. And I went to the Supreme Court of Canada. But I did do the trial of the Vanderby case with Louise's direction and guidance. You know, do this, do that, okay, okay. And so we got everything in that we thought was pertinent so that the trial appeal would work out well. And it did, it went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. That's another one. Hey, I worked in that case as a lawyer. So that was very cool, very cool. Anyway, so yeah, she was a great teacher, a great person to me. How much did your views on Aboriginal law and the role that lawyers play in gaining Aboriginal rights and title, how much did that change in your time working for Louise? Well, Louise was and is, I mean, she's a bright lady, right. And discipline is another word that I would use, right. She sets a high standard, and that helps when you're creating arguments, building your arguments, being able to rationalize and think on your feet, right. So as a politician, when you're going into the whole area of Aboriginal title rights, you know, I mean the Chiefs, I think, understand what the rights are. They say, you know, we have right to go fishing, we have right to go hunting, you know, we own our land and all that. But then when he crossed that threshold into law, you know, you go on the other side of the bar, sort of thing, and you begin to read the cases and you begin to understand the constitutional framework that we're operating on. You begin to understand the difficulty that the lawyers have in actually bringing the political positions that come from the Chiefs and taking those and flipping them into the law, right, making them into something that fits within the Canadian legal system so that arguments can be made, right. And that's not an easy thing to do sometimes because, you know, a lot of what Chiefs and what I understood when I went in is based on the notion of sovereignty, both based on the notion of lock, stock and barrel, the old James Gosnell position. And when lawyers get that, they've got to somehow go, oh, we still have a constitution, we're still within the courts of Canada, we're not arguing outside of Canada. So how do we make those arguments? And that's the part that I think is not easy to do. And then to once you've built those arguments and you're going in and saying, well, this is what we can accomplish, then to go back and try to explain that to the Chiefs and that's not easy as well. But Louise wrote some great, great memos. And I've kept most of them. I sort of have my Louise Mandel collection, right. And she's developed a great way of communicating and helping people to better understand, you know. So I would say that entirely all of my views with regard to Aboriginal talent have been shaped by her and what she's done. Because when I read her material, it makes sense to me. And it's because I grew up understanding, listening to what she had to say. Her and people like Michael Jackson, Leslie Pender, you just, so I'm kind of a product of, I guess, you know. And so, yeah. It's not that other people don't make any sense, but what brings true to me, what sounds right to me is when I read her material. So I guess I'm biased in that regard. I admit it. Guilty. How did it be in a chief before you went into becoming a lawyer? How did that help you recognize how to kind of frame Aboriginal rights and title then in front of a court? Or did it? Well, being on council, I was on council for seven years before I went into law school. And I remember going into my first evening in a chief's meeting. Where was a chief with us? I think it was actually under Prince George. I went with my chief in those days. I slept on the floor in his room. I had to attend for some other reason because I was a student here at the university in 1970, I think, 69, 70. And was it 1971? Yeah, I think it was 1971 because it was the centennial of BC Joining Confederation, 1871. And I think I'd gotten a grant with Ernie Filt to do some cultural presentations during the summer months in the north. And we went to the union chief's meeting to sort of ask them for support because we're going to have to go into all these communities. And that's when I first went to my first union of BC and chief's meeting and listening to the speeches and hearing a lot of the older chiefs get up and talk. And when I became a chief myself and listening to the legal reports, listening to the accountant's reports, I realized that I didn't understand everything they were saying. I mean, I didn't even know what questions to ask to help me to figure out how to clarify what I didn't understand. The problem was I just didn't understand what they were saying at all. So I remember getting up to the microphone saying that. Gee, I don't understand. Philip Paul was, I think, chairing the meeting and looking at it. The lawyer was sitting there and the lawyer was saying it was a three-piece suit on. Giving us a report about what they were doing. And I was looking under room and people were like, you know, I think none of these guys understand either. And some of the other chiefs were going to say, glad you said that. I didn't understand what the guy was talking about either. So when I got into practice and I got into working with Louise and whatnot, I was always concerned about that, making sure that people kind of understood why we were doing what we were doing and how that was consistent with the positions that were being taken by the union. And in those days, I mean, you had the declarations that the chiefs were making, this whole movement towards sovereignty started coming out in the 70s and 80s. And partly that was because of the work that Rosie T. Sheen and I were doing in the resource center when the Yukon agreement was coming out. And I remember Mike Smith was sharing, John Joe was, I think, with John Joe in the Yukon where we were negotiating the trees up there. I remember George was going to go out and talk. George was George Manuel. And we pulled him aside and said, you know, these guys are going up there and they are willing to settle this whole issue, land claims on the basis of fee simple. Do you know what fee simple is? George said, no, what does fee simple mean? Well, fee simple is the same title that the white people have. I don't think that's what we say when we own the land. So he went up there and started ringing this bell about, no, you guys are selling short, don't do this, they stopped the treaty. You know, it's like everything once seemed to me, they sort of took a hiccup there because Rosie and I had gone in and did that. And so the problem, of course, is that when we began to shape these arguments around sovereignty and this whole notion that Aboriginal title means entire locks on territorial ownership. In the court of law, we didn't realize that you can't raise those arguments, right? This is within Canada. Of course, no longer a jurisdiction if you mean to tell them that they don't have jurisdiction. It's like, okay. So having that experience as a chief and understanding the positions that they were taking, then I think that helped me to go back and say, okay, this is our issue. This is what we can do with the law. We can protect some of these rights. But you guys need to start fleshing them out in treaties. You need to go back and begin to work them out in a different way. The law can do this much more. It's not going to solve everything. So that helped me coming from being a chief and being in the community and sort of stepping into the shoes as a lawyer going, oh my God, now how do we do this? So, yeah. It was an interesting transition, anyway, to say Louise was pretty interesting. And Louise was a good guide for that. Because, you know, every year she would make the reports to the unions, union chiefs, and go and explain. One of the other words for Louise is, talk fast. She talks very fast. And the reason she talks fast is because her mind works that quickly. She's just very, very quick. And in order to keep up with her thoughts, she talks fast. And she has compressed thinking. She has very complex thinking. So often if you don't have the background to understand, you do get left behind a little bit. But she got better and better at doing that, you know, speaking to the chiefs and helping them understand what we were doing, what the lawyers were doing. And, you know, she got a lot of support. She got a lot of victories, too, for the chiefs. She's a lot of great, great things in court to protect rights. And her reputation was pretty stellar in terms of standing up in court and fighting for the rights and whatnot. You know, I think there's a lot of aversion of lawyers who work for average people right through the years. And she's in that long line of people who come to the defense of average people. They've done a great job. That's a great thing to be able to learn from her, too. To work with her. So how did then transitioning to coming to judge from a lawyer, again, like how did being a lawyer then like transfer, being a lawyer and working at the movies then transfer into understanding law and from kind of the judge perspective? Well, making the transition to the judge, I think, wasn't that easy for me because being a judge, of course, you're not partisan, right? You're supposed to be quiet and patient and you allow the lawyers to bring the positions to you in this adversarial process called the trial.