 Alright, thanks for staying with us now. The father of the 12-year-old Christen International School student Whitney Adinira, who allegedly died during the school interhouse sports events in Lagos has said his daughter died of electrocution. And Dr. Michael Adinira made the claim in an interview with the BBC pigeon on Sunday. Meanwhile, the school management in a statement on Sunday said the disease slumped in public view and not under any hidden circumstances. Adinira was rushed to the nearest medical facility for first aid according to them. Child safety is the area concerned with limiting children's exposure to hazards and reducing children's risk to harm. Children are particularly vulnerable to accidents and their safety requires different approaches from adults around them. So how can child-focused institutions begin to start to handle crisis management? That's the question. Now please, let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 08-1-803-4663. You can also tweet others at Weisho Africa woman the hashtag Weisho. All right, so this conversation, a lot of people have talked about it from different angles, but I want us to narrow it to three things. The role of the government, the role of what's it called, the role of the facility managers themselves and the role of the school. I think we should make it four and the role of the parents. We just narrow it down, right? I mean when this incident happened, first of all quickly what came to your mind? I'll come to Eastie, then we'll bring in our guest. Okay, so before it was established that the child died from electrocution, I saw the video where the mother came out and said oh she was looking for her child, she went to the giga stadium, she cursed and all of that and then by time she got to the hospital. It was not a hospital, it was an immunization center. So that was what struck me first. Okay, it was not a hospital. Then the school came back and said oh we're just looking for the quickest or the fastest seemingly medical practitioner that could attend to the child. Okay, no problem. Then second she came and said oh when she saw the child, the child was already or no that she had called I think the guardian of the school administrator or something like that and the person was very lackadaisical about it and said when the child just fell oh we don't know what happened but go to Agige central hospital and I'm like and there was no such thing as Agige central hospital it was central mosque and she had to imagine her going around how long it took her to go around first before she finally found the immunization center. School administrators need to do better. I always say this, I know that I have worked in a school, I worked in a school for, I worked in schools for about seven years and then I realized that what most schools don't understand is that it's not a matter of if there's going to be a crisis. They will. When there's a crisis what do we do? What steps do you take? Is there a policy that says okay in the case where child complaints are beheaded, step one check temperature. Step two that's why I always praise the last school I worked in. You dare not. A child dares not go home and says oh mommy I had the tummy pain in school today and I told miss chair and the three girls said I should go and drink water. What? Immediately any child complains about anything. Your duty is to first create an incident report. Think of whoever it is that can attend to that child. It's not in your place because you're not a medical practitioner. But then fine okay maybe the school can say okay we need to create like you've said crisis management. There are steps to creating a crisis management thing you know. First okay maybe like the administrator can then be the head of the crisis management team. There's a school health facility and all that. So my question is first what does it mean that there was no first aid into house sports? It's one of the most risky events to hold when you have children. Interhouse sports. I'm not even supposed to. This thing you said my sister slumped because my sister is used to 100 meter race. So she now run 800 meter race. She slumped like collapsed. It was glucose that they were packing in her mouth that that resuscitated her. So how can they So interhouse sports naturally is a ground for injuries and all of that. That even that there was no medical facility on ground there. Well let me come to you Isi. What are your thoughts or what came to your mind when you heard about the story? What came to my mind when I heard the story was not a game. It's so sad that we have to go through this time and time again whenever a school has some sort of event or there is no event and a child has to suffer. Let's not talk about the children that a child you know if you recall the incident of the little child who went swimming and the child drowned. Let's not talk about the child who went to school and was bullied by his peers. Not to talk of the child who was in a school and was bullied and died. There are so many instances that we can call to mind and these are things that we didn't experience when we were in school. So what came to mind was not a game and for a school to be having that kind of event and not having health care facility or individual or a personnel on ground that should be questionable. First things first. Secondly, yes. Secondly, the training of the staff. Something Chinelo said earlier. You have to train the staff on something that has to do with things like this. You are supposed to do something like this. You train the staff in case this thing happens. This is what you're supposed to do. But I'm so sorry to say this. Majority of the schools that we have in Nigeria, they do not pay attention to things like this. Not to talk of thinking about the protection or the right of the child in that context. Not to talk of the crisis management. Instead, they would rather start screaming and say or passing the blame back and forth. Let me keep it short. So I'm bringing our guests here. Tawakilame is a social development lawyer, co-founder, power parenting company and parents' rights to social protection advocate and publisher. Akilame is arguably Africa's foremost child protection thinker and practitioner and his unique philosophy and teachings on family strengthening child protection and related matters have been well received in over 133 countries. And he's also a prolific writer, poet and a blogger, a friend of the house. And thank you so much for joining us. He's joined us live from the U.S. Thank you so much, Tawakilame, for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure to be with you today. How are you doing? Well, we thank God we can be better. I mean, this conversation, I have so many questions that have been, you know, like so many things running in my head. First of all, why again, another death? I have an event that I do with children. I gather about 3,000 children to play board games. And I know that in that event, I have mobile nurses on ground. And this is not a sport that requires any activity. It's board games. It's chess, scrubber. It's just in case the child begins to cry and faint because they lost the match. Just for emergency purpose. There is a first aid, what's it called? So who mentioned it? I don't know, it was Trinello or E.C. that mentioned CPR. We don't even know all of those things. But Tywo, you are a four, what's it called? Someone that's always at the forefront when it comes to child protection and child safety and all of that. First of all, when this news broke, what came to your mind? Well, I think, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Can you see me? Yes, we can. Because I'm not seeing myself. We can see you. I seem to be, I'm seem to be hanging. Anyways, number one, let me begin by commiserating with the parents of the deceased. It is not the prayer of any parent or even any school leader that a child would die. So I commiserate with the parents. I pray that God will grant them the fortune to bear the loss. And I commiserate with every stakeholder, including in school, you know, in this matter. I think what comes to my mind is the fact that when things like this happen, emotions will be high. People will go to town and say a lot of things. Where I always pack in matters like this is not to take my views from the views of the mob. The mob has no conscience, they say. And where is the mob these days? When I was growing up, the mob was on my streets in Nando. But now the mob has moved from my street, moved online. So when something happens, people say a lot of things. And I think it is so when we go that route, parents are saying something, the school is saying something. And the tendency at the end of the day is for us to take side. Some people will take side with the school, some people will take side with the parents. I think those are not the ingredients of justice. When we are talking about justice, justice says you are innocent of the proven guilty. That is the position of justice. Justice has differentiated between what we call justice and revenge. Revenge is not the same thing as justice. There are two different things. So for me, where I pack in this matter is that and I want to just oppose this case quickly with the case of Sylvester Aromony. Sylvester Aromony was allegedly bullied to death in 2021. He died on the 30th of November, precisely. And upon his death, the government was silent. I mean, nothing was being heard from government. And there were a lot of agitations. On the 6th of December, 2021, the law firm of Falana and Falana engaged by the parents, decided to write to the legal state government to institute a corona inquiry into the death of this, I think it was also 12 years old or 13. Yes. So the legal state government was asked to institute an inquiry. And between when Fermi Falana wrote that letter and when the legal state government was going to respond, the TPP came out to issue a clean bill to everybody that was arrested, everybody was okay, everybody could go home. And that sparked a lot of uproar. And people were not going to be the nerves were afraid, people were not happy. But in this case, I think learning from the incident of Aromony, and it's important to note that corona inquiry did not begin to sit in Aromony's case until 2022, January 21, precisely. But in this case, the matter happened on the 9th by Monday, last Monday, the legal state government has said that there should be a corona inquiry into the matter. Please note, it is not established that the child was electrocuted. It's not been established. It's people have made different cases. The parents initially were not talking about electrocution. They were saying that they wanted to know what happened to the child. But now there's the news of electrocution out there. What I'm going to say, what I say in this kind of situation is that let us hold our guns, let us hold our bullets, let everyone pay attention and follow the investigation of the corona inquiry. The corona inquiry is going to do two things. Number one, the corona inquiry is going to determine the cost of death and circumstances of death. Those are the two things the corona inquiry is going to do. Everybody is submitting to that corona inquiry now, and I think that's what we should pack in the matter so that we will not make assassinations and put culpability at any quarter until we see the findings of corona inquiry. Now, it's not been established also that this could not put anything in place. Are you getting it? It's not been established. Now there are speculations here and there. This could not put anything in place and all of this. I think what we need to do is to calm down. And so what I'm saying- Sorry to butt in here, but I mean it's an interhouse spot, right? My son's primary school, that particular Aegee stadium, was the location for their interhouse spots when they had, because again you know the way schools are structured in Lagos. They don't really have enough space to run a proper interhouse sporting competition. That Aegee stadium, I was frequently going to that stadium because of the interhouse spots, what's it called? Activities that my sons held there when they were in primary school, right? So I mean if you as a school, if you had an ambulance, so all those emergency what's it called? Ambulance on standby. Two things would be inside that ambulance. There would be a nurse that can probably administer CPR or first aid and give them if they need to put oxygen, they need to put a drip because it's a complete hospital but it's just mobile, right? So if that was in place, I don't need to be, it doesn't need to be established because from the reports of the mother, this child was put in a school bus with a driver. The principal did not even leave the venue and they spared off. Do you understand? So if that thing was in place, I beg to differ, there was nothing in place because if it was in place, the child would have been inside that, what's it called? The ambulance or the emergency whatever, then they would not be driving to the hospital. Can I come in? Please come in. So that is what the mother has said. I get what I'm saying and the truth of the matter is that I want to, what I'm saying right now, I want to say with every sense of responsibility and every sense of empathy inside of me. I empathize with the parents, I empathize, it is not easy. For you to have raised a child for 12 years and something happens to the child and you want to know what has happened and I'm interested in what has happened as an advocate, I'm interested. Now there's a lot of things in the public domain and that is why I'm saying that there's a difference between Romani's case and this case. In Romani's case, a lot of things were shrouded in secrecy. Government did not act on time. But in this case, government has acted. They have said okay, we have established a corona inquiry. What is the purpose of the corona inquiry? Establish the cost of death. Establish the circumstances of death. The parents will have their day in corona inquiry because corona inquiry is going to take evidence from everybody that is involved, including children. That's what we saw in Syvester Romani's case. We were in court, so Syvester Romani, every court sitting we were there were available because we wanted to follow proceedings. The same thing we have done in different times, even in the Chrisland case, in the former Chrisland case, we were also in court. Are you getting just to observe proceedings and to see how things were going on for ourselves, not to be told? So what I'm saying is this, when there's a lot that the parents are saying, the school also has issued a statement to also say that everything that was required for the safety of the children were available. They were there. That's what the school has also said. That's also a claim from the school. Now, what I'm now saying is that why we wait and it's something I think that we should be interested in. Everyone who is interested in this matter should show up in that corona inquiry to see for themselves or follow the report in the newspapers. The only time they don't allow people to enter the corona inquiry sittings is when they are taking evidence from children because they don't want to take evidence from children in the public layer. So that's what I'm advocating, but you see everything that we are saying here does not take away the need for us to analyze the state of the school system in Nigeria today. What is in place for the protection of children? That is critical. That's a subject we must look at because again, as I know that when it comes to protecting children in school is a three-way thing. There are three ways of protection. One is the family. The second is the community. The third is the government. That is the state. Now, what is the role of all of these three? What do we have in place? What should we have in place? Now note that ultimately we'll be back to this point to analyze the Christland case in a more factual manner upon the finding of the corona inquiry. Whether the child was electrocuted, whether there was an ambulance, whether there was no ambulance, whatever the facts are, nobody, everybody will be under oath before the corona inquiry. And you have to testify. And please note, two things that the corona inquiry is going to use. One, the autopsy of the child. This child had died. The corona inquiry will go to the autopsy. The doctor who conducted the autopsy will take the witness stand. It will be examined in chief. There will be cross-examination. Nothing can be hidden at the end of the day. That is why I think that at the end of the day, we may be commenting too early on one side of the story. Let us, the local state government has said the corona inquiry will begin to sit. Let us follow up and make sure that the corona inquiry sits. And let us follow the proceeding of the corona inquiry and let's see what the issues are. Thank you. Whether the child was electrocuted or not, it will be established. Whether it fell in public glare, whatever the issues are, the corona inquiry will be established. So that's what I think. We need to wait. All right. Let's go on a very short break. When we come back from the break, we'll continue the conversation. Stay with us, we'll be right back. All right. Thanks for staying with us. Now, if you're just tuned in, we're having a conversation around the incidents that happened with Chris Lan and we're looking at it from crisis management plan and child safety, you know, for, especially for schools. And we have with us Tywa Kinlami. Now, let's hear what you have to say. Remember, you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to do it. One is your three, four, six, six, three can also tweet at us at WeShow. I've called on the hashtag WeShow. So I liked the idea that he talked about, you know, the corona inquiry. So let us wait. Because I even said it when it first happened. I said, see, we should need to normalize autopsies in this country so that we don't even, it's not a guesswork. Because even if the school refuses to tell you, the autopsy would reveal it. But do you think, you know, do you think it is okay for the school to have kept quiet all this long? Because again, based on what, I mean, the conversation now, it seems like okay, the only party that we've heard is just the mom and the father, you know, from the child. Do you think it is okay that something happens like this and there's no word from the parent? Well, of course, it's not okay. Which, I mean, that's what I was just going to say. You see, when we're talking about crisis management in, for, in facilities that have to do with children and so be it a school, whatever it is, as long as you have children, right? In fact, I say brand totally. The worst thing you can ever do in terms of crisis is to keep quiet. Because you're supposed to be able to, you know, cover your reputation at that time. And you keeping quiet is not going to help you. And that is what has happened with this code in particular now. Because it has been said that they had, they've had one too many cases, you know, the very popular one that they had the two year old child that was defiled and all of that. And then it was said that at that time, they also didn't say a lot about this, they were covering up, they were doing it. When things like this happen, if this, whether they're even coming out to like, if they come out and say something at that time, you would definitely have, like Mr. Tawaki and me, 60% of people or maybe 50% of whatever percentage of people that would even, okay, at least they've said something. But in minutes, you keep quiet. Let's look at it from another perspective, though, you don't mind me saying this, but our guest is already in here. But however, we can look at it from the perspective that they are also trying to get their investigations together, get their facts together before they actually come out to say something. So that's, there's a two way streets. Yeah, but then I'm not asking, right? This thing happened. The school, there are people from the school that were there. I'm not saying come and say this is what happened because you can't establish what has happened. But come out and say, okay, this thing happened, we are trying to do this, we're trying to do that, give us some time, instead of just keeping quiet. That's what I'm trying to say. Let me bring in Tawaki and me because I hear his back. And I wanted to just quickly add to Tawaki and me, I wanted to tell you that the reason the case is quite quick and swift, right? Don't forget that we have an election round about the corner where government officials are trying to seek to be seen to be working. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, that's why there's a bit of urgency in the case that, I mean, recent cases that have been happening, the lady that was shot at a jar, you know, now this case, you know, and all of that. Let's know that this one is just politics. We need to be serious with crisis management, right? It doesn't have to be a political season for you to act or do what is right. So, I mean, what would the government do? What would school do? What should the parents do? What should the institutions do? Like, for instance, the stadium, they have a body, they have a management body. What should they have done in terms of crisis management? Yes. Thank you very much for your question. As this news broke on the night of February and I followed the news keenly, you know, followed it keenly. I think the school issued a press release on Monday, just after the, you know, because initially when the news broke, the press began to speak and all of that. And the parents were out there trying to make their case, calling for justice and all of that. I think the school issued a statement on Monday, you know, where, you know, they tried to talk about the fact that, come straight with the parents, talk about the fact that, I think a week before they're about that the child was not, was doing poorly and the parents were invited and they took her away. And as a matter of fact, she was supposed to participate in the entire sport. She was excused from participating in the entire sport on the health grounds. And the school issued that statement, which was, which was sent to the public vision. The unfortunate thing about this kind of matter is that a lot of emotions are out there. A lot of people are not happy about what is going on. So I think that press release of the school has not enjoyed the same level of, you know, publicity like the outcry of the parents. And it's expected. I mean, that's, it's not sensational. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's a, the response of the, of the school does not bring sensationalism into the matter. What brings sensationalism into the matter is the outcry of the parents. I think that's why the press release of the school has suffered a lot of, a lot of, has, has been in the dark for, for a very, for, for, as a matter of fact, if you listen to the interview of the mother, the mother was responding to that press release saying that the school was saying that the child was doing poorly and all of that, that the child was okay and all of that. So now there's something that we mentioned, you mentioned, which is important. Now there's something in law that we call occupability. I believe that in this Corona inquiry, one of the bodies that need to be invited, this is stadium, it will be because what machinery do they have in place? You don't just give out a place and say, well, I've given it out. When you want to give out a place, I want to believe there's a form on that form. I want to believe that the people who state the purpose for what they want to use the facility, you know, the number of people you are expecting. So as a facility that schools use from time to time, what measures do you have in place to ensure that the children or any occupier, any occupier is protected? Do you have in place all of the safety tips, safety machinery to ensure that not even anything happens, which is unexpected, which cannot be unexpected in a place where you gather a lot of people? You know, what you call an emergency in our own definition is lack of coping capacity. What makes something an emergency is not that it happened. What makes it an emergency is lack of capacity to cope. And that is what makes an emergency because what you call an emergency that got out of hand for you happens in some other places. I mean, it happened as if it did not happen. So look at the example of the so-so-so crash. So-so-so crash, plane crashed in Porakot, you know, and it was, it was, there were a lot of casualties. The same thing that happened to So-so-so happened in France. A plane crashed at the airport also. Not a single soul died. Everybody was rescued. So the problem, therefore, was not with the crash. The problem was with preparedness. The people who were supposed to respond, the responsibility, people both capsizes, you know, they are both capsizes. And before you know it, every soul is rescued. If they both capsizes in Lagos, I mean, just, just write RIP, you know, you know, there, I mean, nothing is going to happen. So those are the issues that is important that we begin to look at within the school system. What do we need to put in place? What are the things that need to happen? For example, there's something we call risk analysis. You cannot do any event in any school, or with children, you know, without doing what we call risk analysis. You can take children and ask questions. You want to take them out of the school within Lagos, not to talk of within outside Lagos, not to talk of outside the country. There must be risk analysis. There are fundamental questions that you must ask and find answers to those questions. You know the purpose of the risk analysis? The risk analysis may see us canceling the events. The risk analysis may see us canceling the journey. The risk analysis may say we are not ready, we are not prepared. You know, there was one of the schools that we worked for. They wanted to take their children and ask questions. But the time we sat down with them on the risk analysis of the journey, they cancelled the journey. It was a major competition that the children were going to participate in outside the country. By the time we finished the analysis, we sat down with them and we told them, you see, between the time that you have to prepare for this journey and what is required, not visa, visa, everybody gets visa. But, okay, for example, who are the people who are hosting this event? What machinery have they put in place to protect children? Have you viewed their policy? The venue of the event? Do you have an agent in the country that has gone to check the place for you? You know, all of these questions were the question and they were saying we have not. We have not. We have not had way and do parents. I said if they go and there is a crisis and something happens to your children, the same parents you don't want to face now. You are going to have to face them and you are going to have to face them as competes. And so what you are going to do now is to let them know that from your analysis, the children, you are not ready for the trip and you are not going to make the trip. Let me bring Isi in because she's been holding up you know the my children actually they cancel the basketball game on Saturday because of the risk management it's better you cancel you see you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the different types of individuals that are responsible for crisis management but of all of these who is most responsible for the crisis management is it the parents aside from the fact that we have if we have parents have an issue like what happened to the child and this thing happened in a school for example who is most responsible for this it's not was it about is it about the student is it about the child is it about the the parents of all the three things which is most important a child does not take care of himself or herself a child a child is anybody below 18 it is our responsibility to take care of children not only that everything a child is going to do concerning his or her own safety he or she starts the same way we teach the child about everything is taught by example is taught by words by lessons and all of that and please note who is responsible for time is dependent on who the child is with if the child is at home the parents are fully 100% responsible for the safety of their children when the children are within the school system within the church within the mosque now at that point the the parent the school the church the mosque have a duty of care to ensure that the children under their care are protected when you take responsibility for children you are taking responsibility for their safety you are you and and and do you know the division of care for us the division of care is to anticipate the needs of children to anticipate the threats to them to now make adequate preparation to meet those needs and mitigate those threats well before their eyes well before their eyes that is why you cannot beat your chest that children are safe on to you do the least canal disease at the point I told schools I told school I say see from the way things are or this idea of bombing arrest in security and all of that minimize how you take children on a cushion if minimize how you take children to go and see movies go and bring the movie to your school buy the popcorn bring everything to your school let the children be within your school because this is our idea of moving around at the point in our country became very very dangerous for example this time at this time where there's nothing well there's insecurity there's the gunshot the gun battle here and there it is not the right time to take children out say you are just so you look at it for example you want to take children to a volatile place you want to take children to to to to a place like if you have to do your least canal disease there's there's always there's in the past there have been crises between a small town known as moda keke and ife you cannot take that decision without security report how much relationship you are with security apparatus of the states gss of this word gss of this word the the military intelligence and all of that these are people that the that schools churches must need to poly and I know I want to believe they poly them in one way or the other to be sure that before you push things out in town sport can be cancelled nothing is more important than the safety of the children if we cannot vote for the safety of the children this event must not hold the first thing is until we are sure that the coast is clear until we are sure that our children are safe until we are sure that if there is a crisis we have a responsibility ability to respond everything you know is on ground until we are sure of that we cannot put children up please note nobody outgrows nobody outgrows outgrows security you cannot outgrow security at every point in time I've been walking the dust is I was my place I've been looking does is I was a small boy I'm 53 years old now I cannot say because they have been looking the dust is all of these years and nothing has happened and now I want to sleep tonight without looking the door I just want to try it out you know nobody does that security safety is a continuous and a conscious effort that we have to continue to make when we give up on it what are we doing we're engaging the life ourselves our own lives and we're engaging the lives of the children under our care one more thing one more thing I'm sorry let me just quickly ask this question among the child rights act there is also recreation health care services education and and survival basically so what role does crisis management have to play in all of these things well well I think that is it there's something we call case management you know I tell schools I say cases are inevitable crisis is a choice because when a case is not properly managed you know because the old idea about child protection safety all of these things is about ability to manage the case and ensure that the case does not degenerate into a crisis so there has to be protocols there has to be policy there has to be system broken down into policy policy broken down into processes on which everybody within the school system or everywhere children are gathered are trained until all of that is in place is impossible to protect children so so so it is not by saying our children are safe it is about what measures have you put in place to ensure that you thank you because I think we run out of time but you know you had a quick comment to say I mean he's already talked about risk assessment but then I was also going to add that it's also essential for these child focused institutions to invest their time and effort up front so that they can understand the risk and understand the the and they also develop contingency plans so that they can avoid you know crisis you know I was gonna say to you title based on what you just said this last statement that you made it means that it is God our children are truly in the hands of God because this this walkable document that you have talked about to break it down into processes how many schools what document are they working with what blueprints have the government provided what is you know there's nothing in place so I mean what you just clearly told me now is that our children are in the hands of God let me make a final comment so so so you know the funding is under a minute please yes you know the funding is this there are few schools in Lagos that are aware of who have all of these policies in place you know the you know Chris Landers to be one of them you know a couple of others who start you know we're working over time you know from time to time to have put all of these things in place and that is why you know some of the things that are out there you know I be painful you know because you you know that you know that there are efforts here and there to secure the safety of children but ultimately where we park in this matter is that I don't want this conversation to end I hope you can have a patrol of the conversation which is the fact that what are these measures that we need to put in place and what are the questions parents need to begin to ask and I will conclude by say death at any point in time does not always always does always means there's a negligence what we need to do is to is to be patient and wait for the report of the corona we will we will and we will definitely we will bring you back when the report comes out yes so we can now dissect it based on findings but thank you so much I work in a me thank you ladies now if you missed our quote for today here it is again children are the world's most valuable resource and its best hope for the future so please by all means let's protect our children we see you guys live tomorrow at 8 p.m. also bring another great conversation to your screen enjoy