 On behalf of the director T.I.F.R., who unfortunately is out of Mumbai and could not be here today, so let me read out a message from Professor Sandeep Trivedi, director T.I.F.R. Here's the message. I heartily congratulate Professor Anil Sadhopal on his receiving the Homibaba Award in Science Education. Professor Sadhopal is a pioneer in reforming the school science curriculum, and T.I.F.R. is proud of his association with the institute. The innovations introduced by the Hoshangabad Science Teaching Program continue to influence progressive and enlightened science education curricula in the country to this day. The award is richly deserved, or rather, I should say that the stature of the award is enhanced by his acceptance of it. Professor Sadhopal has remained steadfastly committed to the cause of universalization of education, and has poured his energy and effort into furthering this cause. These efforts continue to inspire us to strive towards this goal. That was the message from Professor Trivedi. Let me add a few of my own words from the perspective of the Homibaba Center of Science Education. The Hoshangabad Science Teaching Program and the materials produced by Balwai Gyanik, the series of textbooks, remain sort of beacon in the field. There's things that are worth going back to repeatedly. In fact, in the context of one of our recent big programs, the Vigyan Pratiba Program, which is developing experiments to nurture interest and talent in science among high school students, we went back, we were designing some experiments in electricity. We went back and looked at the Balwai Gyanik books, and we found those experiments already so nicely developed and so well structured. These initiatives, I mean, it's striking to think that they go back nearly half a century. I just wanted to mention that also for the sake of our young colleagues that it's worth looking at these exemplary efforts in experimental-based, inquiry-based science learning. Let me now read out the citation before I hand over the award to Professor Satgopal. The Homi Baba Award in Science Education 2018 is presented to Professor Anil Satgopal in recognition of his lifelong contribution to a systematic rethinking of science education in India, including impactful experiments in teaching at the grassroots level, like Kishore Bharti and Ek Lavya, leading to the implementation of activity-based, inquiry-oriented education in the school system, as well as spearheading several local and all India people science movements and sustained interventions aimed at making the national education policies more equitable to achieve universalization of education. So it now gives me pleasure to hand over the award to Professor Satgopal. Thank you. Thank you, Professor Subramaniam. Now we are all eagerly looking forward to the public lecture that Professor Satgopal will be delivering today. It's titled, as you can see here, Hoshangabad Vidyan in Government Schools, Dismantling Hegemonies and Reconstructing Discourse. But one of my tasks is that I have to introduce the speaker who actually does not need any introduction. But I mentioned earlier that I'll talk about this auditorium that I'm very happy that this is taking place in the auditorium, which is Vijay Kulkarni Memorial Auditorium. As both Professor Anil Satgopal and Vijay Kulkarni were friends and perhaps inspirations. And this association led to the genesis of a Homi Mabha Centre for Science Education and perhaps all of us are present here today. So briefly giving us introduction to Professor Anil Satgopal, he has a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology in 1968 from California Institute of Technology USA. He was a fellow at the TIFR from 1968 to 71. And at the age of 31, he resigned from TIFR to organize a Rural Education and Development Program through Kishore Bharti in the Hoshangabad district of Madhya Pradesh, where he was active from 1971 to 1992. In collaboration with the friends, Rural Centre Rasulia will hear all about this in his talk, of course. He initiated the Hoshangabad Science Teaching Program, which is called HSTP in 1972, and the details of it will all be apparent to us. What is important is that Professor Anil Satgopal is a very good mix of an academic and an activist. He joined the People Science Movement and the Movement for Civil Liberties in the early 80s and he was very active in the struggle of the Bhopal gas victims against Union carbide for all those who are very young perhaps they should try to remember this event. And he was then because of his efforts in getting medical treatment and rehabilitation from the government, he was appointed by the Supreme Court on the Committee to recommend measures for the Bhopal gas victims and for their rehabilitation. This was from 1986 to 88. He was the national convener of the Bharat Jan Vidyan Jata, BJVJ, and all India People Science Network till 2002. And he conceived and led the BJVJ's Lokshala Program for demonstrating an alternative vision of universalization of elementary education. So I mentioned that he's a perfect combination of academic and activist. So at a later age in 1994 he became a professor of education in the University of Delhi, served as the head in the Department of Education and was the Dean Faculty of Education from 1998 to 2001. He has also been a senior fellow at the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library. He has been a member on various national commissions on teachers, that is 1983 to 84, the National Policy on Education Review Committee, or as it's also known the Acharya Ramurthy Committee. He was on the Central Advisory Board of Education from 2004 to 2006. And on mainly on three committees, one is on Free and Compulsory Education Bill, the Girls Education and Common School System, and the Universalization of Secondary Education. He was on the National Steering Committee for Review of the NCF, National Curriculum Framework, NCRT. He was the Chairman of the National Focus Group on Work and Education for the NCF. And he has been the recipient of awards like the Jamnalal Bajaj Award in 1980, and Shanti Niketan's Ratindra Puraskar in 1984 for application of science and technology to rural areas. And as you now know of the Homi Baba Award in Science Education, he has authored numerous books and articles in Hindi and English, and is the founder, member and presidium of the All India Forum for Right to Education. And as a result of his interventions, he has acquired a public image as a radical educationist, or as it's also known as the Vidrohi Shikshavad, Shikshavad, Shikshavad. So I invite Professor Anil Seth Gopal to now give his public lecture and talk. Thank you. Professor Subramaniam, Professor Sugra Chonawala, because they both communicated with me in the last several weeks to reach here. And all the former directors of Homi Baba Center for Science Education and the former awardees, I salute you all along with my cordial wishes and thanks to everybody in the audience who have taken the trouble to travel through Mumbai traffic and reach here to listen to me. I hope it will be worth it, your entire effort to reach here. I begin with a sense of reluctance and self-doubt. The reason is that awards normally in our country are being given to individuals while the entire effort is always a collective effort, invariably. I express this doubt to some friends through emails in the last few days. How can one person like me represent the Hoshangabha Science Teaching Program, which was a massive effort involving not the dozens of people, but literally hundreds and thousands of people at various stages of his growth and evolution. So one of my major challenges today would be, while talking about the story of HSTP, is to keep sharing with you the various names which will pop up in my mind. But I am also very doubtful about taking that exercise seriously because I know while doing it I am likely to miss many names. So when I am really in a dilemma, if I don't mention the names, then it will look like as if a person like me has done a single-handed effort, which impossible cannot happen. If I mention them, I am likely to miss out on many important names, but I will try to do as much justice to this important responsibility as possible for me. I begin with the story of 1969, when I had spent hardly a year in TIFR. When I get a call from late Professor Yashpal asking me to come down from molecular biology unit to the west canteen where people met to talk about their areas of interest. So I went down and I was introduced to Mr. B.G. Pitre who had come from Dehradun, from a school, well-known school. Reputed or not, I do not know, but well-known school called Dune School. He had come as a physics teacher from there and another person whom I had seen on the campus but never been introduced properly was Professor B.G. Kulkarni. 1969. The three of us sat together, had a cup of coffee, a long chat about the reason why Pitreji was invited by Professor Yashpal. Pitreji and two other teachers like him working in some within quotation marks public schools, they are not actually public schools, they are highly privatized schools, not meant for public of India, but they are called public schools. These three teachers had a dedication to evolve a program of teaching science through experiments. Since all the three of them were physics teachers, they started with a focus on teaching physics through experiments. This must have been in mid 60 to 68, the period when they developed a book by evolving experiments called physics through experiments and Pitreji was a better known person amongst the three and so he was invited. So, after Mr. Pitreji has shared his experiences then Professor Yashpal and Professor Kulkarni who had a prior consultation informed the two of us that they are already involved along with many other scientists of TIFR in visiting the Marathi medium, sometime Marwadi medium, Mohindi medium, Telugu and Tamil medium, BMC Bombay Municipal Corporation has been amazing in having multilingual program of schooling. So, they had been visiting these schools with experiments devised by them showing the experiment exciting the imagination of students in their whatever time they could to take out of their research and this was already being encouraged by the then director Professor Menon, but now the things had reached at a little higher level when Professor Yashpal and Professor Kulkarni was talking about intervening in four Marathi medium schools where they will introduce learning of science not just physics all aspects of science from class five where the first year of the upper primary begins at used to begin I think even now it has not changed from class five up to class seven. So, lot of early preparation had been done this was all shared with Mr. Pithre then Mr. Pithre was requested to guide them further who he had the experience of doing such things. He agreed and a date was settled couple of months later when Mr. Pithre will come and about 60 teachers from four schools would be invited with permission of the Bombay Municipal Corporation Education Department this happened I have many stories to tell so I am going to hurry up and not share the details with you each detail is an exciting detail in at least in my memory, but I won't spend time on all the details. I remember when the first teacher interaction took place in Bombay Municipal Corporation from TFR initiative there is a large lecture hall on the ground floor and I was invited but I wanted to keep a distance I must quickly share that reason for distance I kept a distance because I had already decided to quit TFR after completing three years and this is I am talking of 1970 when the time was coming closer because in 71 December I quit. So, I wanted to keep a distance because I was quitting TFR and moving to Madhya Pradesh the place was not settled but somewhere in Madhya Pradesh not to do science education at all that was the farthest thing in my mind this is the first time I am acknowledging this in a public meeting in other personal meetings and informal meetings I have not only acknowledged I have written about it also somewhere the first time I am acknowledging that there was not it was the farthest thing in my mind to go to Madhya Pradesh villages and do any work in science education. So, what was I going for? I was going there to start a program of Naith Aalim inspired by Gandhi at that time whatever little understanding I had since then I have read a lot studied and analyzed written a lot on this subject but Naith Aalim was my Zunoon if that word makes sense to you literally a Zunoon for me with this Zunoon I did not want to distract my attention emotional or intellectual to start listening to what happens in science education. So, I refused to enter the lecture hall I stood outside on the door and I said for a few minutes I will listen and then go away I stood at the door for next one hour Bhaskar Pithre was I came into the hall and started with an experiment a long table that I think is still there that long table of 1970 the long table stood behind it with a one meter long scale and it is very important because that became almost the guiding spirit of Hushangabha science teaching program later and of any important science education intervention. So, long table and Mr. Pithre says that he was Marathi speaking teacher. So, he says in Marathi to the teachers that we will today measure the table each one of you would be invited to measure the table is a slip of paper will record your length which you have measured and when you all finish then we will open the slips and write on the blackboard length which you have measured. So, some people laughed also what is this we are senior teachers experienced teachers in science and we are being asked to measure a table but they reluctantly agreed. So, they measured one by one 60 measurements scale and the 60 measurements were written on the blackboard and there was no identical measurement each one was different ranging from let us say the table was 3 meters long then we are ranging ranging from 2.8 meters to maybe 3.8 meters. So, the natural question asked by Bhaskar Pithre was to them do you think the table is changing its length or the meter scale is changing its length what is happening what is changing why you are not able to get identical or nearly identical measurements. So, teacher said look we did not take you seriously we thought you are just mocking us at us by saying measure now give us a second chance we will be very careful. So, second chance was given and again the measurements varied but this time the variation was less than the first attempt then the third attempt was done still there were variation considerable variation but much less than the previous two attempts the teachers were aghast. So, look we are so serious about measuring it now it was a challenge for them and we are not able to get the same measurement. So, Bhaskar Pithre is joked I told you earlier the meter scale must be changing its length maybe table is getting longer and shorter while you while you are measuring something is wrong and then this beautiful experiment which has been repeated hundreds of times in Horshangabad teaching program Horshangabad science teaching program and then later on outside the district also and Rajasthan Gujarat also in some schools I mean repeated in every teacher training program is as exciting as it was in 1970 when I was watching the experiments being done from outside the lecture hall. Finally, analysis took place and it was worked out I will not repeat this story because this is only it can be told only once. So, Bhaskar Pithre told them whenever a measurement is made whether of length or of weight or of area or surface area whatever measurement we do there is invariably a variation. Then teachers asked are you saying there is not a fixed length of a table. So, no I did not say it I said that measurement varies and it is almost impossible to measure the exact length of the table. There will always be a statistical variation use the word it will be variation. So, we can talk about the variation and the mean can be taken and then plus minus so many centimeters that is all we can do. Of course, when it happened in Horshangabad in the very first workshop couple of years later in May 1972 then students teachers ask some more fundamental questions I do not know whether it is because of the water of Narmada or not I do not know. They asked after doing this experiment in the very first workshop in May 1972 being watched and guided by Professor Yashpal himself. They said are you saying there is no truth in science. And this time Bhaskar Pitra wasn't there. So, Professor Yashpal said you are right there is no Shashvat Satya in science. Satya varies and is relative Satya. Our job is to keep engaging ourselves with in search of truth and we will spend our whole life and you will spend your whole life in the schools now in searching for truth along with the students amazing message given by Professor Yashpal and similar message from Bhaskar Pitra two years earlier. I walked away with a sense of almost shock that this can be done and conveyed in this very simple manner. But then I knocked at my head no don't get swayed away your job is to go to some place in Madhya Pradesh and work on Naidhaalim. You can incorporate this experiment in Naidhaalim there is plenty of scope for that but Naidhaalim is a goal. So, I went back to my Naidhaalim project and eventually to cut the long story short with help of the then leadership of friend rural center Rasulya. Rasulya is a village at that time one kilometer out of Fushangabad town now inside the Harshanabad town as it has happened all over the country. So, that person called Sudarshan Kapoor whose name is not remembered in the history of HSTP with my duty to record his name and I wrote to him when he congratulated me for the award. He's not in India anymore. He's teaching Buddhism in Colorado University. So, he wrote to me few days ago that look I am very happy you got it and I know you never given up the cause of better educational schools. Please continue. So, I wrote back to him why are you dissociating yourself from this? I happen to be here. So, I am going to accept the award but don't you know that if you were not around there would have been no HSTP. If there was no HSTP there would have been no homibaba center for science education. If there was no homibaba center there would have been no award. So, he wrote back very nicely. He said look I was only a fighter on the front line but the core guidance the guidance came from you. So, don't forget that the core spirit is yours. I was only protecting the boundaries and expanding the boundaries. He's right also. So, Sudarshan was at Rasulia and Rasulia was going through a very bad phase. Rasulia center established in 1860 by some Quakers from Australia and Canada because they were the famine and they came to India to help in famine rehabilitation. So, they set up this institution called French rural center Rasulia. So, Rasulia was going through a bad phase because it was looking for a meaningful direction. So, they were running a school on the campus whose sign board said then below that Naith Alim. So, Sudarshan told me go to that school and tell me whether any Naith Alim is going on or not because you're going to do it yourself. So, I reported back to him there's not a sign of Naith Alim in that school. It runs like any other school in the country. Then the chairperson of the governing body of that center happens to be a very formidable person in the history of Naith Alim called Marjorie Sykes, a close friend of Gandhi and she was inspired by Gandhi to do Naith Alim work in Central India, with her area as well as the Bhopal region. So, the same task was given by Marjorie to me and I reported back to her the same report that there is no Naith Alim happening in your school. Then both of them asked me then why should we continue the school if nothing new is happening. Her job is to change if no change is happening because of that school let us close it down. Then they asked me is there any idea in your mind which can bring about a change in the government school system? Give it a new life, new vision. I said look I don't know I've not applied my mind to it and I said look my job is to start a Naith Alim school so I'm not talking about how to improve government schools and they insisted upon an idea and mentioned Bhaskar Pitra. He said call it. So Bhaskar Pitra came and he again talked about his work and how he has done. Everybody at the Suluya center was inspired and Bhaskar Pitra said look I'm too old to do anything but if you really want this to go forward catch hold of an idea. Don't let him go away to his Naith Alim. So Sudarshan being very smart not in the modern sense of the computer and the mobile without that he was very smart in ideas and he caught hold of me. He said you have to help us. You can go and do what you want to do. Then he found out and I'm not moving an inch from my resolve. So he said to me what do you want to do? You want to run one Naith Alim school you'll be remembered as the headmaster of a good school. Is that the end of your life? Is that why you have come all the way from Bombay quitting TIFR? Why have you quit? Just for being a good headmaster of a good school then I realized he was talking about transformation of the entire education system. So I promise I will stand by you I'll help but I will not get involved formally officially into it. There's no agreement between us and the story started from there. We heard that there is a young IIT in Kanpur, IIT Kanpur who just finished his M Tech in Chemistry and looking for some place where science education is being reviewed and redefined. We heard about Rasulia. He came to meet us. His name is Rasheed Sheikh and Rasheed got very excited. He wrote a four page proposal to the government of Baddipadesh in Hindi because government read only Hindi at that time. So a Hindi report four page proposal that this is why this kind of science has to be done which will wipe out the pedagogy of rote learning memorization and replace it by critical thinking, scientific thought, scientific method and all that. And with Rasheed, Suvarshan and I took a trip to Bhopal. A very interesting story. I want to cut it short again. When did I start? I started at 4 o'clock. We took an appointment with the then director of public instruction that was the name, official name from the British days of the education office of the state governments. The director of public instruction was Dr. B. D. Sharma, a PhD in Mathematics, IS officer who is known not for being an IS officer is not for having mathematics as his PhD topic. We are known because he organized scheduled tribes, the tribals of India all over the country and fought for the fought for liberating them from alienation from their land, from their forests and from oppression, exploitation. And he became later on scheduled caste scheduled type commissioner of India which is a statutory post in the constitution. He wrote two excellent powerful reports which have been thrown in the waste paper basket as expected. So that Dr. B. D. Sharma in younger days was sitting at the chair of DPI. He looked at the four page report quickly and said, I am willing to consider this. Give me a week's time. I will call you again. He thought this is the end of the story. He will never be called again like any bureaucrat. He has shunted us out. But one week later we got a phone call from the DEO office in Hoshangabad, district education officer Jaila Shikshadikari saying that director wants to meet you immediately tomorrow. Come go there, reach in the evening, meet him tomorrow morning. He met him. This time he was not alone. This time about 20 people were sitting behind his swivel chair. We were introduced that they are all members of department of education holding different positions from assistant director to joint director to science consultant, mathematics consultant and the additional director, the executive head. So he told them, you have read the report, proposal given by them. I want you to react and give your views to these people. You are all ready. First the NCIT representative sitting there was asked. We did not know that NCIT has got ambassadors sitting in different parts of India. That was the first time we came to know. We are told he is like an ambassador for western India, Madhupadesh, Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Gujarat and Goa. So he was asked to speak before the department people. He said this report should be thrown out of the window because NCIT has thought about this subject a lot. He is talking in 1970, 71 and or early 72. In 60s, NCIT decided learning science through experiments is a luxury for the rich countries of Europe and America. This is not something which is meant for poor countries like India. Secondly, it is impossible to learn science through experiments because it is very difficult thing and even American, American, North American countries and even European countries have not really succeeded and we should not get into it at all. So as representative of NCIT, I advise you not to listen to them. Then the rest of the people were ready, even more ready than the NCIT person and one of them was said, can I question these people? Ask some questions. So yes, you can ask. DPI told him. So he asked me. He thought maybe I was introduced as a former scientist from TIFR. So he asked me, do you have a BA degree? And I'll be honest with you. I said, what is BA? It's a different matter that decades later I headed the department of education in Delhi University and presided over BA, MA, M field, PhD in education. That is a different story. I said, what is BA? It's an honest question. Lashi sitting next to me was pulling my kurta. I said, stop. Don't say that. Then he asked, have you ever taught in a school? I said, no. He said, sir, I told you. They're amateurs. Then he said, have you taught anyone ever? I said, before going to US, I used to teach children studying class six, seven, something about science before leaving for Caltech, which I did in my neighborhood. He said, look, totally inexperienced, doesn't know ABC of education theory, and he wants to come here and change the destiny of our schools. How can he do that? Don't allow him. And one after another, about 10 more people added the same kind of narrative. A little older person sitting at the back, he was quiet. So Dr. Sharma looked at him and said, Sehwar Ramji, do you want to say anything? He said, yes, I'm waiting, waiting for my turn. He stood up and said, I've read the report. Put my notes on the margin. I've given a photocopy to you. I hope you've read it. This report should be proposed, should be immediately accepted and implemented. He said, I have served as science consultant of the department of education for a lot 30 years. I never see the proposal of this kind. So beautifully written, so crystal clear in the ideas with a resolve to end road learning in science and replace it with critical thinking, scientific thought, and experiments. Please allow them. Amazing, a science consultant, very junior at that time, his position was like assistant director at that level. There were two other higher positions before DPI, between him and the DPI. He took this courage to say that, and he carried a choti. So years later, when he got involved with us, he used to come to our campus of Keshav Bharti or Rasulia for teacher education programs with his choti and used to be very apologetic. He said, please forgive me. I'm a student of science. I understand logic, rationality, and all that. I'm all in favor of it. You know it, but I somehow cannot get rid of this choti. Please tolerate me with the choti. Apology right in advance. Disclaimer, a wonderful person, one of the makers of HSTP. So Dr. Shama was ready with a written letter, official letter in response to our proposal. So he looked back at us, turned his fiddle chair, and said, permission is granted. There's a huge human cry in the room. How can he do it, sir? So his answer is, historical answer. He said, Madhupadesh ki skolok hi halat itni badhal hotchuki hai, iss ko ye aur kitna bigaad hain gaye. Then he said to us in more serious tone, there are three conditions on which I am giving you permission. Number one, you shall not change the syllabus. At that time, I did not know the difference between syllabus and curriculum. If I don't, I would have immediately pointed out, we'll change the curriculum. We'll not change the curriculum, but we'll change the syllabus. But again, Russia stopped me from saying that. But I did not know the difference at that time. Now I do. Second, you shall never ask for change in the examination system. Say, okay, we are doubtful, but we say, okay. Third, you'll never ask for any money from the state government. He said, this I want to explain to you, because this is not a educational matter, this is a political matter. He says, state government gives money when a budget is approved in the Vidhan Sabha. If you ask for any money, the budget will have to be, will have to provide for that money in the Vidhan Sabha. In Vidhan Sabha, there will be politicians who will throw out your entire proposal. So save yourself from going to Vidhan Sabha. Don't ask for money. Manage your money if somehow you can manage. On these three conditions, permission was granted. Next morning, we got a call in Hoshangabad from the same DEO, Jilashit Shadikari, saying that I've received the official letter, saying that select schools for the program. So would you come along with me? So Rasulia had a jeep. We took out the jeep and DO did not have a jeep. So we took him along. We visited Hoshangabad block, more than 100 villages in that area. And Sudarshan insisted that Kishobhati campus recently established them, was in Bankheri block 100 kilometers away, more than 100 kilometers away. So he wanted some schools in Bankheri block. His calculation was in Bankheri block schools are included. Anil will not be walk out of the program. He'll be committed because of his location. I understood it, but there was no way out. So nine schools in Hoshangabad block and seven schools in Bankheri block were selected in 1972, early 1972. In fact, only 15, permission was given only for 15 schools. So when the seventh school was added in a remote tribal village, I asked the DEO, how can you add a 16th school because written permission is only for 15. He said, look, they have given us, given me a letter saying that such a radical idea of science education called HSTP is being allowed. When they can take such a radical decision as DEO of the district, at least I can take the courage of adding one school. I'll not consult the DPI for this. There's no need. He added a school. I'm giving you examples after example, how people move beyond their official mandates and took decisions one after another, opening new spaces for us. With 16 schools, the program was announced in May 1972. The first teacher education workshop took place. The most exciting thing which has happened in my lifetime. We keep calling it a teacher education workshop, not teacher training workshop. It's because you train dogs and cats. You don't train human beings. I know all over the country they use the word teacher training. So we call it teacher education and you'll shortly know why it is so important not to call it training, but to call it teacher education. I just want some water. So Yashpal was there, a team of young scientists from TIFR led by Ramu Ganguly, if that name is familiar to you. Dinesh Sharma, I do not know if Dinesh is sitting here or not. I sent a message that he should come. Thank you. Dinesh Sharma and three or four other people I don't recall the names. They had come to join our workshop as chemistry people. They're at chemistry. Physics they added from Pitres group and biology was my headache. So all the three major dimensions will be added. Geology was still not included because we did not know whom to ask to help. So some short stories about that. On the very first day of the workshop, 40 teachers from invited from 16 schools were introduced to the idea of conducting experiments. Not one of them had ever conducted an experiment. Nothing surprising. They're not conducting an experiment. Two thirds of them had studied science only up to high school. They're not gone beyond high school in their life. So they studied science up to high school. One third of them had studied up to either up to 12th class or first couple of years or three years of BSc. But that was maybe only one out of them was a BSc degree holder. But not one of them had ever conducted an experiment. It is not surprising. Very much as expected. So they were divided into groups of four around 10 tables and they started doing experiments. As they were doing the experiment, they got involved in what they were doing. They got a little bit excited, stimulated by their experience of doing the experiment. So they started discussing what is happening in the experiment, what observations are being made, what kind of data is emerging. Among themselves discussing and gradually their discussion became very excited. And they got started discussing with each other. What is your, what color is your experiment doing? What color is your experiment doing? Mine is different. Yours is different. What is happening? Science is giving different results. They all started discussing. There was a lot of noise in the room. At that time, DO had not arrived in the right time. And he came on his bicycle and teacher saw his bicycle coming towards us through the window. And the teacher said, suddenly there was a pin drop silence. Not a word came out. He said, look, continue what you are doing. He said, he had heard the noise from the window. He knew what was happening. So when he arrived, he put his bicycle outside and he walked in. And many teachers got up to salute him. And some teachers vacated their chair. He said, no, you please continue what you are doing. I have heard about what is going to happen here. I know you please continue engagement. So they quietly started continuing the experiments again. But not one voice will come out of them. Then DO said, why did you stop talking? Pin drop silence. Then he provoked them. So he was very nice. He stood up and said, I will visit each one of you and see what is happening. He went to all the tables. And gradually they had the courage to start talking again. Over the time, the equation had totally changed. It did not matter it was district education officer coming to visit them, or the divisional officer, officer of the five or six districts in a commissioner, or it is a DPI coming or the secretary education coming. Each one had to sit down on the floor on a journey and engage in discussion, debate, dialogue with the teachers. And teachers had to respond. Teachers could question the secretary education. It happened within the next five, six years. That whole authority of the authorities was eroded by the science teaching program. That was one of the greatest success I will record. Because if that had not been done, no education leading the children to scientific thinking, scientific methodology could ever take roots in Horshangabad without challenging the authority and establishing a sense of equality amongst the partners in the program. And everybody is a partner. This idea was complicated. Second day was even more dangerous. Professor Yashpal was guiding. And some experiment had been conducted by the teachers. And many questions were being raised. By this time, by second day, they were getting used to asking questions. Many questions were being raised. At some stage, Professor Yashpal said, This is a very difficult question you have asked. I do not have an answer for this. I hope everyone understands this much of Hindi. I do not have an answer. Give me the time to think about this. And I will talk to our friends in the evening. We will have a discussion at night. We will give an answer tomorrow. One teacher student said, Sir, what are you talking about? A scientist like you, who is known all over the world, when he does not have an answer, then think about what will happen to us in school. After using this, all the questions will be asked. All the questions mean irrelevant. Foolish. If we ask all the questions, what will we do? We will also say that we do not know. We will tell you tomorrow. Professor Yashpal said, yes, we will do exactly this. If you do not know, what else will you do? If you do not know, then you will have to say that you do not know. There is no human being in the world who has all the knowledge. No human being has the entire knowledge of the universe. What is wrong with that? Many teachers stood up. No, this is not possible. We cannot do this in the school. On this ground, we refuse to be part of the program. Why? What is wrong in saying I do not know? Yashpal said, I say I do not know even in international conferences. Say, you can say it. We cannot say it. Why not? They gave a very amazing answer. The answer was because in schools, students consider each teacher to be the ultimate source of knowledge. And because we are considered the ultimate source of knowledge, it is from this conception that our authority flows into the school system. It is a question of power. Our power flows out of it. And because of that authority we hold over the entire school, we are able to command discipline from every student. If we say we do not know, we will lose the command over discipline of the school. So what will happen to our authority and our power? And then I knew it was a Brahminical mindset speaking. We all knew that. It is a different matter whether they were Brahmins or not. Most of them were from upper caste. They were not a single Dalit at that time because reservation agenda was very weak in those years. So social justice was on the back seat. So rarely you will find a tribal teacher or a Dalit teacher. So the rest of them were from upper caste. So I knew it was a Brahminical mindset speaking. So we had to engage with it. So a lot of discussion took place. On that day no more experiment was done, not a single more experiment was conducted. Discussion was about the relationship, assumed, presumed relationship between knowledge and authority, and between authority and whatever they think is a notion of discipline, whatever is their notion of discipline. They were uncadmissed. They said okay, listen to me, listen to me. So we will do what we have to do. Where D.O.S.A.M. said we will have to do what we have to do. But we will not experiment where so many questions arise. After seven days of workshop they stopped saying it. That's a different matter because they learned a different culture. They became part of a new culture of science and democracy. Very exciting. Third day was very interesting because evening before that and the evening of the second day, we got a telephone call from our great D.O. There is a very strange message from the capital that tomorrow the education minister returning from his hometown in Sidi on the eastern part of Madhupadesh, touching UP. From his hometown, via Itasi, itasi was the link to go to Bhopal by train. And on his way he wants to stop by and spend some time in the H.S.T.P. workshop. I said you must have made a mistake. No, no. It's a message for sure. So we didn't announce but the next morning we told the teachers sometime before lunch the education minister will arrive. So sir, is there a full list or not? That's not true. So we will bring it. We will bring our money there. The education minister will never come. How is he coming here? We will bring it. Calm down. Just continue what you are doing. On that day they were using magnet and learning how magnet behaves. Experiment with magnets. You had so much fun using magnet. So you keep doing it. No sir, the education minister. That's a very heavy thing. It's not D.O. The police will come with him. I.G. will be the police. I don't know what will happen. That's a big deal. Get ready. I.G. will be ready. Nothing will happen. When they come, as D.O. sir has experimented with you. The minister will also do the experiment with you. Nothing will happen. His speech will not happen. We are attacking. We are questioning the whole political culture on the very third day of the workshop. He came. Of course several cars behind him, police and all that naturally we kept everybody away. He came alone. Walked in. Everybody stood up. He said, sit down. I heard that you D.O. had told us that you are working with Chumbak today. I have never even touched Chumbak. I will also work with you. I will see the work of Chumbak. Chumbak is magnet. Then he actually sat down and teachers went back, pulled their chairs back. They were fighting. Ministers sitting next to them in the same table. They said, where is Chumbak? Show me. But they somehow settled down. And for the next half an hour, the minister of education, Madhya Pradesh, conducted experiments with them. Then he said, it's time for me to leave. And he got up and said, I convey my best wishes to this new initiative. I pay my respects to Prasai Yashpal. He knew him by name. I am very happy I met him. I thank all the young people here. Please continue the good work. And whenever you require any help, just give me a message. Help will come from the education department. He went away. He was not wrong about his promise of help. We never asked for any help until a year passed away. In 73, 31st March, the same D.O. calls us. He says, can I come? Are you people around? He says, yes, you can come. So he came on his bicycle. His famous bicycle is very important, my imagery. He came on his bicycle with a small bag hanging and opened the bag and said, here is an envelope for you from Education Minister. 31st March of 73, we opened the envelope. It was an official covering letter, not by him, by his office, saying that the education department in Hindi. The education department is very happy. For your good knowledge and knowledge, they give you Rs. 10,000. We never asked for it. So Sudarshan said, return it. Give it back. And we have promised B.D. Sharma not to take any money from the government. So we said, Mr. D.O. take it back. Why? We didn't even apply the application. I don't know if I applied the application or not. My job is to give it to you before 31st March and to put it in the bank today. Or else, the financial year will change. Do you know what financial year is? I said, I know. So it will change. That's why you have to put it in today. And if you don't, then Education Minister will transfer me from here. And I have to stay with you right now. So please take it and sign it here. Since the program was being run by Friends Rural Centre Rasulia, not by Keshav Bharti, Sudarshan signed and put a stamp and gave it to him and we got a check. I don't think any of us have ever heard of such a story. Minister sends a check insisting whether you apply or not, you take it. So this is a new culture of Harshanabad program developing there. I will not take more time on the very first workshop. I want to move forward. Program started from month of July in the schools. It was decided in the workshop that we'll have a program of monthly meeting. We'll all meet once a month for follow-up, any problems, any new ideas, anything to be done, two problems to be resolved. And we will visit you continuously. We'll come to your schools, 16 schools. So Sudarshan took responsibility for Harshanabad block. I took responsibility for Bankeri block. We started going to schools. On bicycles, that's the only board of transport. And recording of our diaries, maintaining diaries, getting involved with the teachers and the children with any problems, invariably there were problems after problems of conducting experiments, but those were being resolved. By this time, we had prepared a science kit, which at that time cost us 500 rupees per school for conducting planned 300-plus experiments in three classes, with children sitting in groups of four each, often on kacha classroom floor with cow dung covered floor, and conducting modern scientific experiments. For that purpose, we provided a kit. At that time, it cost us 500 rupees per school. On the very first meeting, one teacher got up, monthly meeting, and said, we are enjoying. We are having great fun. We never had such a fun in our schools. Even village people are coming to the school. Parents are coming, watching what is happening. Everybody is excited about what is happening. But we will do everything in this program except taking out field trips. Apart from experiments being an important source of learning, field trip was another important source of learning. Children will go out in the farms or on the rocks nearby, collect stones or parts of various crops, bring them into the material we brought into the classroom, and next day they will be studying the material. Classifying flowers, dissecting flowers, even taking out ovaries from there. None of them had ever done. It was all very exciting. This was field trip. We will not do it anymore. Why won't they do it? We will not enjoy it. We will enjoy it a lot. It is a very simple matter. But we will not do it. Why won't we do it? Last time we took the class last week, we were all outside for an hour. So, you know what happened behind us? The school inspector came. He saw that the class was empty. He called the headmaster. He took my name and said his name. His confidential report file. He noted on our CR file that when I came here, the entire class was empty and the teacher was gone. So, it won't work like this. My promotion will stop. My increment is due. I want to marry my children, so I won't get any increment. I will be ruined. I won't do it. I asked the rest. They are saying, don't do it. The rest is fine. So, we called our DO, our sankat mochak Hanuman. So, he came immediately on his bicycle from 2 km distance. He said, what's the matter? Why are you all scared? So, he heard the whole story. He said, this is serious. I understand that. This will destroy the program. I do not know how he on his own figured out what is the core spirit of the program. Because we spend a lot of time with him. Of course, he is explaining why we are doing what we are going to do. So, he said, I understand. This cannot go on. But give me two days time. I saw this program. So, two days later, he issued an official order on a plain paper, typed in Hindi and very bad typing. All typewriters were in back shape. He typed that order. It's called demiofficial order. DO. So, that order said in four lines. In short, like HSTP. If there is any education in this school, along with children, Hindi of field trip was Paribrahman. Paribrahman has been issued. So, no work will be done against it. Because taking children to Paribrahman, he made a historic statement in the history of Indian education. Since my college is the minutes of 1835. Historic statement. He essentially not just said no action will be taken. He could have stopped there. He explained. Because field trip is an integral organic part of the curriculum of HSTP. He went way ahead of anyone who could be expected from the government department. In the next monthly meeting, another complaint by another teacher. It's very difficult. You have given this kit. It's a big mistake. No, you gave the kit right. But when children experiment, they break it. And this magnet is a very beautiful thing. They keep it in their pocket secretly. They take it to their home. They show it to their parents. They think that they did something wrong. They brought the school stuff. The next day, the parents come. They take your stuff back. And this is a very strange thing. All the things are taken away. So, teachers say, we of course enjoy. We explain to the parents also why loha is attracted by chumbat. That is fine. But since things are getting lost and being broken, when the stock will be taken at the end of the year, we are damaged and lost, then all the damages will be taken out of our salaries. We'll have to pay at the end of the year. That is the rule of the government. We cannot go on bearing losses of this kind. Again, D.O. was invited. He heard the whole story. He gave me two days. He always asked for two days. And two days later, he issued another letter. Another D.O. Again, a historic D.O. He said, in this program, kit is liable to be broken or lost. In bracket, losing is not a bad idea because magnet is very attractive for people to learn science. And this loss will never be charged against the salary of any teacher engaged in HSTP in 16 schools. Another problem over. These are not small matters. If you know the Department of Education of every state government, how it thinks, how it operates, how the rules govern their minds, not the other way around, these are major decisions being made without consulting the D.P.I. office without even informing. History was already being made. Third. Third monthly meeting. Every time there is a new problem. This time the problem was the school inspector came and stood outside my classroom. Children were busy doing experiments. We said, Sir, please come inside. No, I will not be in your class. Anushashan is not in your class. He is in-discipline. No, Sir, he is experimenting. Look, you also do it. I will not be in the Alushashan Heem class. I will not come in an undisciplined classroom. Sir, what is the problem? Is there so much noise? Everyone should be quiet in the classroom. Everyone should be quiet. Only the sound of the teacher should come. No one else should come. All the children are speaking. They are inspired, children are inspired. They are also discussing with each other. They are arguing with each other. This is the pedagogy of HSTP. If this noise will not stop, then I will write it in CR against you. I am giving you a warning. And you bent away. So, now solve it. Again, D.O. was called. He heard all that. It took two days later. He should have been the famous D.O. In the HSTP's Hovishka Solar School, it is possible that the noise is there because the children are scared. They talk to each other. This is the way to gain knowledge. This is the right way. There should be no problem in this. And I tell all the school inspectors to respect it. I mean, imagine these three stories are not simple stories. I repeat. We could not have imagined such a thing happening. Even today they look like impossible things which have happened in history. They are all part of the records kept carefully. I move forward. Rashid, still with us, kept on saying we should connect with more people so that the resource group of HSTP expands. Right? How do we do it? He said, look, when I got a NCRT talent scholarship, I was asked to work in Delhi University for my summer vacation with a chemistry professor. And he is himself on the same track thinking of introducing experiment as a way of learning science in colleges and universities. He prepared a book also on this. But he has no such ground level experience like you people have. So if you want, I can request him to arrange an interaction. He arranged it. I think it was October of 1972 that I was invited along with Sudarshan to visit Delhi University. And a meeting was arranged by Professor Krishna Sane of the chemistry department and people from physics department, from geology, from zoology, from botany, from all science department. Several people present, about 60 or 70 people were there. But large number came. Large proportion was of physics teachers. I think they were the most agonized teachers. That's why they were there. They heard the report a few months since March of that year. And they were, they just could not believe that what they believe should happen in India has already started happening. And one of them said, Professor Vijay Verma now, Vijay Verma said that we have prepared a serious report for Delhi University when students come from high school system including private schools, the famous public schools of Delhi. When they come to us, they do not understand ABC of science. So we have to start again in both mathematics and physics from zero. And the first year is spent not on teaching the BSc level physics, but in teaching high school physics and mathematics. Then they become ready to absorb the higher ideas. So we want to work in the schools and change all this. And suddenly we heard something like this is already happening. Very happy. Can we come and be part of your next program whenever it is held? We said yes. So in December, in this Christmas vacation, we had organized a seven day workshop. They came, several of them came, eight or nine of them came, chemistry, physics and biology people. And they were genuinely impressed by what they saw. They said this is like a dream come into. Can we get associated with it systematically? Can you create a space for us? We were just waiting. It's like a boom coming to us. And each one of them was a gem, is a gem. Some of them are not alike. Each one of them is a gem including understanding of philosophy of science, not just method of science and philosophy of science. So we said certainly you're welcome. They said we'll have to find a way out because we teach every day, all working days we are teaching. We cannot take off. There are lots of tests we undertake. So there's no space available, but we'll do something. They went back and wrote a formal proposal about 10 pages. We have a copy of that proposal. Address to the Weissach's term with a request. This report may be presented to the academic council and later on to executive council for taking administrative decision. We want certain specified period when we take leave every month at the rate of 2% from each field, chemistry, physics, biology, geology, and go there for a certain period, maybe 2-3 weeks, come back and continue our teaching in the university. The academic council burst out in protest. And the academic council said, this is rubbish. The UGC is paying your salary to teach at BSC MSC level or do a PhD program. You're not being paid a salary to go to the schools and teach school teachers. Secondly, if anything is to be done in school, don't you think there are plenty of schools in Delhi city? Teach here. Do whatever you want to do here. You have no job, no reason to go to Madhya Pradesh and get involved in their program. So they argued because they've already created essential infrastructure, permissions there. Therefore we want to go and join. Otherwise, we'll have to create the same situation in Delhi city which is almost impossible for us to do. Nobody was impressed by the argument. So the report was rejected. In the month of January, one of their philosophers, real philosopher of the entire group called Pramoshiva, a physicist, he sent a telegram day after tomorrow to reach Delhi and meet me outside UGC office. So I took the first train to Delhi and reached there in the morning. You know January is very cold in Delhi. I didn't have proper clothes. I saw Pramosh waiting outside the UGC office in a very heavy overcoat. I said, I had called him. At least I didn't have to bring hot clothes. He said, it's a big mistake. So why have you called? He said because our report has been rejected by Delhi University, we are now approaching UGC for help. Is there any reason to have hopes from UGC? He said, no. No prior discussion. I asked for an appointment. UGC chairperson, this is January 73, has invited me to meet. And I told him, you are coming. And he said, OK. He did not know any of the two of us, but we were there in front of him. So George Jacob, then chairperson of UGC. So he had a written proposal, the modified version of what he gave in Delhi University. He read it quickly. And he said, OK, what do you expect from UGC? All right, you are doing good work. You want to do good work in Madhya Pradesh. Go and do it. Why have you come to me? He said, because we cannot take leave and when we go away, who will teach in our place? All kinds of problems. He thought for a minute and said, I think there is a way out. I think I can solve the problem. I'm very new here, but give me some time. So I asked, what is a way out? He said, we have a teacher fellowship program in UGC which enables teachers to go for higher interaction, higher level interaction, higher studies, research, experience in their own field of study. History person goes for history and physics person goes for physics in some other institution in the country. And in his absence is allowed for about four and a half months, one full semester period. In his absence or her absence, the university is allowed to recruit ad hoc teacher for those four and a half months whose salary is reimbursed by UGC. While the salary of the teacher who had taken leave for higher studies continues to come from the same source that there is no break in the salary and no problem in the pension calculations and other such matters. There's a continuity. So I said, you are yourself saying it is meant only for that subject. But here is a subject is not the point because physics person will go and teach all kinds of fields of the science. And this is not for higher studies, higher research. So how will you do it? He said, that is why I asked for time. Otherwise I would have offered the fellowship right here across the table. Give me time. I'll see what is to be done. There's a meeting of the whole commission in a week's time. I'll try to get a special permission from the commission. Commission allowed him to do it by modifying the proposal. Proposal modified to say it is not necessary that the person who takes teacher fellowship leave goes only for higher work, higher studies and research in her or his own field. Not necessary. He's preferred but not necessary. Another mandate being changed. And the same conditions will apply. Rest of the committee. By changing one sentence, doors for teacher fellowship were opened for Hoshanga Basin's teaching program. And that letter went to Delhi University. Now the same academic council, same executive council, same vice answer, readily accepted and congratulated the Hoshanga Basin's teaching program team emerging in Delhi University campus. By using this name, by using exactly this name, HSTP team emerging in Delhi University is congratulated for support being given by UGC. Since that day, UGC became essential part of expanding the program. The more volunteers teachers you get, whether from government colleges of Madhupadesh or TIFR, or from IITs, or from Delhi University, like universities, wherever you get them from, if they're willing to take that teacher fellowship, it will be coming forward. Because no limit was placed by Prof. Chekha. Later on when Kerala Shastra Saitha Parishan was organizing the All India, Bharat Jan Vidyan Jattha program, they needed teacher volunteers for their work to be taken forward. They heard about this program. They again applied giving the precedence of HSTP. On that basis, the teacher fellowship was extended to them also. And number of other times later on in the decade of 90s. What I'm sharing with you, my dear friends, how a single idea, exciting idea of HSTP kept on opening up new doors of the government system which is known and correctly so as a very rigid, inflexible system with no sensitivity for any improvement in the system of education. Yet that same system was responding in amazing manner. So a whole team from Delhi University was ready. They came to be known in later years because they started doing new experiments for Hurshingabad program, sitting in their own labs. The university allocated them a huge room known as the Ho Vishika Room and the entire group came to be known in Delhi University as the Hurshangis. And they were very proud to be called Hurshangis. Next several years they spent with us. And whatever Balveganek which Prasad Subramaniam was admiring and rightly so, they are wonderful books written by lots of people together. The whole resource group is involved. Lot of work, lot of thought has been given in which Delhi University people have played a major role, a decisive role. They continue to play that if ever there is an opportunity. There is a story which I missed telling you about TIFR, very important story of the first workshop. As I told you the chemistry group was there led by Ramu Ganguly. Is Ramu not around? I heard he's out of India right now. So Ramu told the teachers, we have worked very hard. We have beautiful new experiments which are conducted in the most advanced labs of Europe and America. We have brought those experiments in very simple manner. They will be presented to you. We all do it. So next one day they kept on doing those experiments. They saw there was no response. Teachers are not getting excited. Teachers are not getting involved. Although experimental material was there in front of them. For whatever reason, for this particular chemistry program the response was very limited. So they had a review of the whole thing over right. And next morning Ramu stands in front of the teachers and says I thought why didn't you all be happy yesterday? I understood that we have worked very hard in a very large lab where no one is left to take away from your life. So we have brought all these materials together whose 40 copies were distributed, photo copies, all from TIFR. We are setting fire in front of you right now. There was set a bonfire in front of the teachers. We want to get rid of them. We'll come back to you six months later with now the chemistry which will make sense to you to your children and to your homes and families. They did that. They fulfilled that promise six months later. They learned. They unlearned and they relearned. Unlearning and relearning became a buzzword in HSTP. Lots of us unlearned and relearned. And kept on doing it as long as we are doing HSTP we'll be unlearning and relearning. This is another beautiful story. Before I move on to the next phase I want to go back and say the relationship between HSTP and Homibaba Centre is an organic relationship. In the first visit of Professor Yashpal and Professor Kulkarni when they saw the situation of our schools the really horrible situation, infrastructureally, teacher appointments, teacher education, qualification, all in horrible shape. So I remember when we were sitting at the bank of Narmada in Hosagabad town, Sudarshan, myself and Professor Kulkarni and Professor Yashpal Professor Kulkarni was very worried. How will it happen in Maharashtra, in Bombay? Bombay had a particular problem by that time. Very important problem which we dealt with in Successful HSTP. Problem was the Director of Education of Bombay Municipal Corporation Mahanagar Palika told the TFR scientist that in the third year of the program by this time it was 1973. So before the beginning of the academic year they told the TFR scientist our teachers have learnt a lot, they've enjoyed everything we also appreciate whatever has been done by you people but in the third year teachers are informing me that they don't want to continue in the third year there will be a proper examination in class 7. An examination will not be based upon what you have been making children learn. It will again demand memorization, road learning and the children will not do well and therefore teachers are writing letters to me to withdraw the program. So Professor Yashpal, given his persuasive power tried his best, Professor Kulkarni tried his best I am told even Professor Menon talked to the Director of Education but nothing could be done to change the decision. This they knew before the academic year began in 1970 at the end of 72. So with this burden on their head Professor Kulkarni kept on saying there is this problem here, the situation is bad how will the HSTP like ideas remain alive how will our ideas remain alive we need to do something then he said to Professor Yashpal don't you think we should make a proposal to TFR for setting up an institution of national significance which will provide full intellectual, theoretical, practical support to making such an idea successful in our school system. They agreed the idea of Homi Bhava Center was born on the banks of Narmada in Horshangabad. These are various connections later on when Delhi University group became involved with us at such intimate level so the Vice Chancellor of Delhi University I think Professor Raza the Vice Chancellor at that time he called these people that I know UGC is funding you people your goal there often to Horshangabad all wonderful work you are doing are you not concerned about your own university science education is a mess don't you want to do something about improving the quality of science education in Delhi University they said we want to but there is no space whom do we talk to say talking to the Vice Chancellor tell us what is to be done out of that discussion the HSTP Horshangi group in Delhi University was inspired to write a proposal to set up a special kind of center in Delhi University with UGC funding that was pushed by the Vice Chancellor Professor Raza and result was that today there exists a center for science and communication on the campus of Delhi University which is an offshoot of HSTP the various connections of this kind ran out of time in 1978 the program was expanded from 16 schools to 280 schools of Horshangabad all schools of Horshangabad all the middle schools from class 6 to class 8 it was not so easy you can imagine much more difficult Dr. Sharma was not around things were getting very difficult yes we had in the meantime won the battle of examination we went to the secretary education in 1974 the year beginning for the last third year of the middle school and posed the problem she said examination cannot be changed for your sake so after some discussion I said to her that I found out that your son is learning music in the evening through tuition he said yes how do you know said look we do our research work before coming to you he is learning to play sitar she said yes that's right suppose he tested on tabla would it work and of course it would not work that you allowed us officially for last two years to conduct a science program which is based upon totally different premises than what you have been doing or anyone else has been doing in the country for last 100 years premises have changed you have allowed us teachers have been trained teachers have been prepared for this the whole ambience is different in the school system she said I know all that yet you want to go back and test him on road learning don't you think you are going to do this injustice to the children she said let me think I'll call you she called us after about 10 days that time just the same scene in 1972 behind her all the department same department official still there in the same position was sitting including Sevaram Chaturvedi at the back in a corner who was already involved in our teacher education programs and enjoying himself and they spoke one after another we had warned Dr. Sharma before he didn't listen to anyone we had already said madam don't give him respect, he will ruin it now see after 2 years he doesn't even have the confidence that he has taught science he doesn't know how he has taught it he ruined our children's lives the children of different countries and now you are saying that our examinations should be different, its parameters should be different how will all this work examinations are examinations if you have taught science then why are they scared they were well prepared they are scared because they haven't taught science I asked the secretary would you let me ask a question to the additional director so yes sure I said to the additional director I agree with your criticism so let's do one thing our children from these 16 schools which are your children these children plus the children of 280 schools they all be examined in a common manner the way you are planned but the papers will be set by us because you say science is saying nothing different so let us set the papers and it will be from the syllabus which you have approved your own syllabus we knew that pressure was going to come from the secretary so I went to the blackboard in the office and drew a curved line it is called a curved line in Hindi did you see this curved line? so this will be the first question and the children will say ask for whatever you need whatever you want ask for its length all of them shouted in a single tone this is a wrong question this question is wrong this is a betrayal we will not ask this why? what is your problem you said what is written in the syllabus what is written in the syllabus I did not write this in the syllabus I wrote this in the syllabus this is written in the syllabus in English it is written in Hindi but nothing else measurement includes everything in terms of length there is also measurement of weight and that is a different issue you did not stop that we are going to give you a leaf even the circumference of the leaf you will not stop measurement is written in the syllabus and in the syllabus it is written it will teach the children in the syllabus in centimeters, in inches in feet and in meters yes it is written I said I have your syllabus how can you not stop but we did not teach the syllabus I said tell this to madam we did not teach the syllabus you did not teach the syllabus but we did not teach the syllabus but we did teach the syllabus in 16 schools now you tell madam what did you teach tell her I said tell this you did not teach the syllabus you did not teach the syllabus you did not teach the syllabus you did not teach the syllabus you ruined your life tomorrow you will become a tailor a cobbler, a mochi you will work in a company you will become an engineer you will have to learn everything you will keep on saying the definition you will say you have to learn the length of the road what will you say you will say this is the meaning of learning you ruined your life you will be a child that made an impact on the secretary she said I will write the letter giving you permission to hold a separate kind of examination in 16 schools and the letter opened amazing doors for us the divisional superintendent education in charge of exams in 5 or 6 district he called us in his office this letter is written that the way the society wants to test the children take it that way in 16 schools and the parameters and evaluation they will decide his report he wrote the proposal if you want to give the approval you can write it to me what kind of examination will you take write everything in detail I will read it and if it is right I will give permission what did we write we wrote in open book examination informally we have been promising the children that keep your records of the experiments carefully the workbook which replaced the textbook here is the workbook this workbook does not give you any knowledge it only tells you how to conduct an experiment which you have conducted whatever observation data you have collected write in your notebook they used to write write your inferences after discussion logical inferences record them and when you will be examined you will be allowed to take your workbook and your answer sheet your notebook and in excitement our delinuistic friends or myself also used to say you only have two things whatever book you want to take they did not believe now the division superintendent said give us the proposal we wrote open book exam children will be allowed to take any material they want to take because it is not going to help them the answers will be like measuring the curved line even engineering books are not going to help you to measure the line so we wrote open book we also said one part will be experiment based another part will be based upon written answer we did not use the word theories and practical which is the by word in Indian education since McAulay 1835 everybody said practical what is practical what does not come out of theory is a dialectical relationship between theory and practice so why are you saying I am practical your theory will be different they have no difference they have the same extension of each other the practice leads to theory theory leads to practice any scientist will know this so why this distinction because you do not believe either in theory or yours what you call practical so practical you can just waste time there is no meaning 10 numbers of practicals without conducting anything for 20 numbers there is a big show going on in Maharashtra right now in our 10th class results so open book experiment based examination separate test we use the word test and there are all kinds of questions will be asked as you written in your in the handout given to you today that courage to explore new knowledge not just talk about knowledge which you already gained courage to touch other frontiers that courage will be tested your imagination to think of touching the new frontiers while testing you how to do it our proposal was approved division superior education said prepare your teachers for this teachers do not even know ABC of this kind of a system so we spent huge amount of our time with help of Delhi University, TIFR, IIT friend and the government college teachers from Madhapadesh various colleges who are working with us just to prepare our children to demolish Macaulay and Manuad and think beyond all this transcend Macaulay and transcend Manuad it was a major battle in Horshangabad program which we actually never won properly things were very difficult and but the very fact that the examination system as holy or holier than Ganga Jal was allowed to be transcended by teachers to be amazing thing when the very first attempt teachers children took their bags and loaded it despite the report of you know loaded curriculum against loaded curriculum they loaded it with books that some book might be useful helpful and they came out after the examination hall written test that not a single book was required because it was not going to help us next year nobody took any books first year it was very difficult they did it then it all became lost in the memory of the people they understood what was happening I want to tell you a story of the politics of the whole thing it was never without political opposition from various sources there is not enough time for it but let me quickly mention one story which happened in 1985 by which time Ekleve had been founded in 1982 10 years after the program started Ekleve in 1982 Kishor Bharti founded it by this time Rasoolia had dissociated from the program for practical reasons we were carrying forward the flag and we were feeling overworked overstressed without appropriate number of people there was a running joke in Kishor Bharti discussions that 250 people run HSTP 250 people are sure it happens 250 people have a program Kishor Bharti was doing a number of things apart from running a new school working with reproductive health working with labor organizing landless labor working with the youth in various ways we were involved in any number of programs in which HSTP was one of it and the running joke was 250 people have a program there is no other way back to the campus let's say 8pm in the evening and I am not back from some school I used to people at Kishor Bharti campus used to say he must have met a group of students he must have gotten involved with the students and must be conducting experiment on that particular pagdandi everyone was so excited if children stop you have to start doing experiments all over when the first time we made electric motor in the classrooms a week later I was passing through a chai dhaba and class 7 students studying in that son of that owner was sitting and making chai and he said come here I will show you a new electric motor not the one that you taught we left everything we made it new so much of enthusiasm happening all over the HSTP school areas people were inventing things and getting excited about it not only this the kit was being replaced I remember when in a girls school in Bankhadi they were going to go on a field trip and they asked me to come along I said okay so I went along they went to the farms outside the village and then the teacher lady teacher asked the girls today we are here they study flowers so today in front of them we will cut them we will remove the female part and we will remove the inside so take the needles and remove them the needles of this kind were part of the kit used to be bought from the market again for conducting 10 groups doing the experiment for 10 needles it cost maybe about 20-30 rupees per school so the girls said today I forgot she was very angry she told you that she has taught us she has come and you forgot what is our dignity what will we say to her it happens that first you bring the needle then how can you forget so what to do so the girl says I will remove the needle and she went to a babool tree in babool tree as you know two spines grow together like twin she broke from the tree one twin of two spines two thorns and said to her friend you take this and I will do it show it quickly show it quickly that day the 30 rupees worth of needles were taken out of the kit and they were told to cut the babool there was an experiment in class 8 in class 9 acid base and neutralizing base with the acid and to know if neutralized are not used to add a drop of phenolphthalein phenolphthalein being an external material in the villages so it was provided in a small bottle it also was cumbersub not only cost you to divide purchase phenolphthalein into small bottles seal them properly then provide it cumbersub who had come for the first time after district level expansion he was watching the experiment and said I have seen this I am not seeing this for the first time this pink color pink color disappear where have you seen this I have seen this in the village I will tell you where I have seen this couple of hours later he says to us I will tell you where I have seen this there is an Ayurvedic doctor in the village when a patient comes to you there is a white in a glass water if you put something in it it turns pink then he says look your blood is like this your blood has become thin it has become bad if you put something in it then it disappears then the patient is very impressed he always took medicine from me I will tell you what it is tomorrow morning he came back next morning he said I talked to the doctor he was hesitant to reveal his secret but eventually revealed and said that it is sold in the market as a medicine for improving the digestive system chemistry people have you ever known that phenoxyline is a cure for disorder in the digestive system so he brought he bought in one rupee local market he said this is the thing look at this it was phenoxyline in very fine print it was written sodium salt of phenoxyline that day we were liberated from providing phenoxyline by the time program was going on in the district level news has spread many supporters and promoters all around us there was a media report by a well known journalist of today who wrote a title of his report was I know why he said that he said this because he had come to visit our teacher education workshop and he said how much money it is it is so expensive the government cannot do it the government is doing it the government had created for district level expansion a special unit in the division education office whose job was to provide kit size kit the way we have advised them they used to often take help from us they used to call teachers to help them that's a different issue so we told him that it cost 1100 rupees per school for providing adequate material for 3 classes 6 to 8 for children conducting in each class in groups of 4 each 10 groups conducting more than 300 experiments in 1100 rupees he said that is all I said no there is one more additional cost there is some breakage losses that comes out to be at an yearly basis, annual basis 1 rupees 25 per child so in Savaaruppe became a famous slogan of SSTP and the government doesn't have money to work properly on the issue of money I must mention when the district level expansion had not taken place, we were still in 16 schools and government was paying for the TADA of the teachers also and the food expenses and we were going to propose district level expansion we were worried that the government will deny permission on that basis we had gone to meet the new TPI outside his room a clerk came who used to often say and greet us we were known by all the PNs of the offices all the clerks of the offices the clerk came with lots of files with him he stopped while people sitting here Sudarshan bhai, why are you sitting here what is the problem he said we come here to find out whether finance will be provided for district level expansion for what purpose for training they use over training so you give it for 40 master you give it for 50 at that time you have to give it for 700 teachers I told you I will tell you a secret so we have from state government district level for science education workshop and training program the money that comes is so much that it doesn't end in any year it gets lapsed it gets back then it gets lapsed now it is getting lost in the next session we can't ask for much we are not abusing for 5 years now they will cut it you do this quickly do the calculation this is it I will give you a sign then you go and tell them that you need money for teacher education you will get permission after 10 minutes he came back he said I told him you want money to be given for teacher education not to us I know that we will give it for 700 teachers any number of times in a year there is adequate money I have just confirmed it for 30 years when Ekleve was created in 1982 from then onwards or before 10 years also not once anyone had heard from state government of madhapadesh they did not have money for promoting science education program of this kind not once therefore my last story I conclude with that in 2002 by which time Ekleve had extended the program went beyond Hoshengabad district as was mandated in formation of the Ekleve institution they had taken it to 12 or 13 other districts in each district they took a school complex an idea borrowed from kothari commission 1966 report where each school complex had 4 to 5 schools for management purposes they had taken 4 to 5 schools in 12 or 13 districts outside Hoshengabad and they had also started covering other subjects they started a social science program from middle schools under the guidance of professor Harman Smukhiya from JNU and his students Rashmi and Subbu whom you probably know and the science education was taken forward by Hardy who is his popular name he is a Kandivan Vinayal Raina no more now with us and many other such people who worked with us as research scholars for the previous 10 years a new team for social science a new team for primary education had already come up that team was working under the program called Prachamik Shiksha Karikram in a neighboring district and doing work with language and mathematics very innovative creative work in the language they had a guidance, benefit of guidance of professor Ramakanth Harini Hothri presently working in Udaipur also retired as head of the department of linguistics from Delhi University one of the best known linguists of the country and he gave wonderful advices and he shall quickly mention and go beyond it he said to us that learn to repeat sentences in different ways, different styles you people write your workbooks like precise scientific material the people who are not exposed to reading in the previous generations or the present generation not surrounded by academic material this is the first exposure to reading anything seriously you cannot be as precise as you have a habit of being in scientific writing learn to write like Payamchand wrote like Payamchand wrote he said he repeated the same thing in many different ways if you say if it is very cold here today we will put it on wood, we will burn it he said yes as it was last year we will burn it learn to write like that so lot of HSTP books were rewritten on the basis of this advice from a linguist the use of such inputs were coming in the years when Iklav started to work and I do not have time I will not take any more time to finish the story in a Savali Ram Savali Ram's imaginary figure which we invented during the 16th school stage and then made it an official figure as part of the bureaucracy when Savali Ram was accepted by the district education officer as an imaginary figure imagine district education officer and the later years divisional education officer the Savali Ram address was used to be here there is a Savali Ram Savali Ram, it used to be Savali Ram Jila Shiksa Adhikari Karalai Hursanga Bahadur and Pincote all the letters which children wrote to Savali Ram asking questions went to district education office they started it out, they knew the expertise areas of all the people or SSTP resource group they divide all the letters and send to different people for answers the answers will go, the answers were not forthcoming in time then there used to be objections by the children for a week, Savali Ram did not get the answer children thought Savali Ram existed sometime they would ask if you ever come to a school then bring Savali Ram along Savali Ram is a great figure now I understand campus has working with Aklavi to document the Savali Ram questions and making it a research program that's a great idea so Savali Ram letters were written and I want to just read one or two lines from this because here is a conceptual step forward for which Aklavi has to be congratulated which we are all struggling with and when we handed over SSTP to Aklavi team, new team we talked about this issue but we did not know how to resolve it Resolution was done by Aklavi so the SSTP, the Savali Ram letter which always published as an introduction to every Baalway Gyanic this is I think 1994 1994 this Savali Ram letter shows the conceptual development but sometime many questions are asked it says that you have done many experiments up to class head book now we will be going to class 9 we will have to face some problems we will have to say something about it the first problem is no one will be able to use it you will not be able to learn by using it just show it last one, part 5 part 4 reading in books you will have to learn everything but listen carefully using it very important concept now learning using it is not just one way learning from experiment is not the only way to learn they expand upon it the first thing is there are many such experiments which can not be done in every situation all the yellow highlighted sentence no one can use it anywhere you cannot use it in my village you will not be able to do it here even if it is on the land of Anushakti you will not be able to do it you cannot do it anywhere the second thing is we cannot always say that we can use it ourselves only then will we agree that has been the slogan we have done it ourselves that you must have seen that this one everyone must have seen I have heard I have forgotten I have seen I have remembered I have done it not adequate that is important but not adequate we have to transcend that also we cannot always say that we will use it ourselves only then will we agree we learn to read and learn now these children are going to go to 9th and 10th where the HSTP is not running that is why it is very important to learn without thinking it is not wise to take books think talk talk maybe in the future you will not get this kind of environment but the environment is made to make this environment I and you have to try together very important conceptual development in 2002 in the month of June a sudden order comes out of blue no prior report no prior indication when there is a fire people say that somewhere there is a spark that is why there is a fire no spark has been seen order comes the same kind of order plane, paper the office of the education department DO letter 3 line letter they are very precise in giving orders 3 line letter it was written the new academic in 2002-2003 in this in the Jinn Jinn schools in the Hoshangaba district and outside the districts they had name brackets 12 or 13 districts where there is a spark there is a spark there are books written by the spark and published books will not be used that means the spark is being shut the books will not be used and the books that are used in other schools will be used the government knew what they were writing they knew the books which are written by HSTP resource group are published without any changes by the textbook corporation of Bhopal or Madhya Pradesh government all these books are published by Patra Pusthak Nigam if you don't and they used to be sold through the legitimate booksellers of Patra Pusthak Nigam textbook corporation so the market was also handled by them suddenly they won't be used that means end of the program lot of protests took place many meetings public meetings rallies were taken out black flag shown to the leadership I am not naming the leadership black flag shown that many scientists came to know some leading scientists of the country wrote letters to the chief minister they included not only of course Yashpal were included Dr. M. S. Swami Natham included many people from the atomic energy commission many letters went to see them what have you done my trip to U.S. for getting investment foreign investment for Madhya Pradesh in his trip to U.S. he reached Massachusetts Institute of Technology Harvard University everywhere the Indian students go around him and protested nothing was changed that three line letter prevailed the program came to a sudden end why my answer is given in my handout here also in the poster sent out answer is very simple World Bank after 1991 structural adjustment of globalization had decided to destroy the vast school system of India at that time with 8 lakh schools that had to be destroyed how do you destroy you cannot say Chu Mantar and its destroyed in order to destroy it you have to enter the program and start dictating terms the structural adjustment term said government of India has to start not declining expenditure on public programs like education, like health like subsidies for agriculture, farmers like whole range of welfare programs like widow pensions all kinds of programs which government of India, state governments fund on a massive scale the public expenditure in those programs must be declined order of the structural adjustment from international funded fund and World Bank for showing how to do it they entered at least the primary education program 18 states of India more than half of Indian primary schools were being dictated terms by World Bank for next 10 years starting from 93 onwards in the process they destroyed whatever was happening in the primary schools infrastructurally teacher trading teacher appointments all were destroyed the idea of a contract teacher was born part of the World Bank structural adjustment program and curriculum and the idea of knowledge notion knowledge in the curriculum was reduced to meaning only literacy and numeracy all this had happened single teacher schools were being opened single room schools were being opened all this is history well recorded well documented by many people at many places including me so in 2002 World Bank had to see that this program by that time it had expanded to 750 government schools 500 of them in Madhya Pradesh in 14 districts and rest of them in schools of Rajasthan and Gujarat also government schools program would have expanded to other states Karnahtaka helped them to started there also Karnahtaka science movement movement people were also negotiating World Bank knew if this goes on and quality of schools keeps improving quality of knowledge keeps improving the epistemic transformation in the school system then their program of destroying government school system will not work new counter model was emerging counter to structural adjustment therefore this had to be stopped with a strong will which government never had earlier now the strong will be given to the government and government passed a three line order to wind up HSTP immediately within the next one month it was done therefore I have recorded in my write up today also with you that if you want HSTP like pedagogy HSTP like vision of education HSTP like freedom for the teachers and teacher educators to innovate to create to open new spaces democratic spaces emancipated spaces then we have to build up a resistance movement to undo the impact of neoliberal political economy there is no other way out I do not know any other option if you know any other option let me know Jai Hind so thank you professor Anil sir thank you for this sharing of the narrative of Sangabad Vidyan program but now if there are some questions if anybody has any questions so professor Satgopal is willing to take them yeah I am just seeing who is okay so you can give up thank you for coming very great hello sir very interesting talk I am a chemical education researcher coming here from US to learn definitely that is what my goal is but I am very surprised to hear what you mentioned in the last five minutes and what I understand is that inquiry based movement actually also was gaining in United States in terms of instruction it also became a moment in there and I am wondering about what is the connection because I feel like this what you did in Hushangabad started pretty much and it is an exemplary program it is an exemplary moment actually so I am wondering when you said that was it because they wanted to take it off somewhere that is what I am wondering about because if you see that inquiry movement actually also advanced to a certain point in US and until the next generation science standards came up it was actually pretty much encouraged now it is still there it is on the decline it is not really you know peaking but this what you said is I feel like was it you know historically no but seems like you started much earlier than they did here we are talking of not education of the elite we are talking of education of the masses that is number one we are not talking of what is understood as the prescribed knowledge from prescribed textbooks we are talking opening of the doors to new knowledge new ways of acquiring knowledge and enabling our children of the masses to not just have literacy and numeracy which takes them nowhere in fact but go much beyond that become thinking people thinking citizens questioning students who can question what is going wrong in our society question the caste question patriarchy question the class question the exploitation question the loss of our sovereignty question raise question what is knowledge people don't raise we are preparing them for that it is a new way of looking at what is knowledge this can be very frightening to any state in addition to that we have the problem of structural adjustment to impose on us by IMF and world bank we said in clear terms reduce our public expenditure in all these fields which I mentioned reduce it why reduce it because you do not have enough money so reduce it on the public expenditure which is for the welfare of the society for the masses welfare reduce that the same IMF world bank never advise our government that also in the process of reducing stop giving income tax exemption of 3 lakhs to 4 lakh rupees to the corporate houses never told that that continued maintenance of the farmers cannot be subsidized we won't subsidize the farmers we won't subsidize the unorganized sector this is 93% of Indian productive force all that will be withdrawn we won't educate the children we won't provide good health system public health or medical support none of that will be supported but will support the growth of the corporate capital by giving them tax exemption every year this year also is to be announced shortly every year it has been announced we won't ask the government in India to not allow any public sector bank to give bad loans I mean don't we know that public sector bank know not to give a bad loan it's not that they are stupid foolish people they are giving bad loans they know what they are doing but they are being made helpless compelled to give bad loans every year so 5 years ago it was 2.5 lakh crores more than 10 lakh crores of rupees all that will be now subsidized by the people of the country all our corporate leaders will be subsidized by us by all of us we are middle class by even the masses they will be subsidizing the corporate capital all this is part of the neoliberal political economy with the crisis of resources the crisis of market that is the crisis of capital there are cycles of crisis through which capital is growing so that capital needs more resources they want to enter Jharkhand they want to enter Chhattisgarh they want to enter Madhapalip travel area they want to take over all the forest all the mining resources they want full support of the Indian police an army behind them when they go and exploit people they want all that they will be supported by the Indian state at the same time they want privatization of the schools schools cannot be privatized by the public funded education system you know it if you come from America it has already happened in many states of America in America 30 years ago essentially all children went to public funded schools government schools today there are many states like New England is one of those areas there is a heavy privatization I think New York and California are standing out with some strength and still resisting privatization so you destroy the school system in India that was a requirement in order to privatize as a result of what happened in the decade of 90s we have the huge growing not just privatized but heavily commercialized market and the commercialized market was cooling has changed the notion of education what is good knowledge, what is good education changed the whole thinking of our children so it is taking away our languages taking away our history I am not talking the history the present dispensary talks about history of rebellion, history of revolution why will private school dedicated to commercialization will teach Bhagasin why will they teach Ambedkar or Phule or Periyar or Narayan Guru why will talk about how Khudi Rambos his whole life was shot dead because he was talking of revolution history will not be taught so it is an attack it is an epistemic attack it is an epistemological assault on Indian education not just schools, colleges, universities that is why universities are being privatized and commercialized campuses are being sold the immediate agenda and higher education today is not to strengthen all the universities of the state governments or the central government agenda has been announced double the number of the so called world class universities world class universities what does it mean they will rank high in the top 200 who does ranking in the world market in the market companies doing marketing of universities rooted in the New York stock exchange and Tokyo stock exchange Beijing stock exchange marketing agency do ranking on what parameters how many people coming out of university get placement in corporate houses multinationals we don't want those parameters we want our ranking how many people coming out of university will serve the people of India will resist exploitation and oppression will fight for the real freedom of the people of our country will bring back Bhagat Singh memories of Bhagat Singh in Poole, Ambedkar, Periyar, Nayan Guru apply it to destroy caste system demolish any illiterate caste system using Ambedkar's language any illiterate that is the kind of citizenship which our commercialized universities institutes of eminence and world class universities don't have the courage to even think about they have sold out their conscience to the market promoted from stock exchanges all this is a total holistic phenomena of neoliberal attack yet capitalism is going through crisis after crisis it's the innate nature of capitalism now to go through crisis it can be saved only by socialist reconstruction of Indian society and Indian politics there is no other way I know of if you know better ways please tell I do not know I only remember the recall the last few sentences maybe three weeks before Bhagat Singh was hanged in 1931 when he wrote his famous Korm Kenam Sandesh message to the people of our country and he wrote this there that we are not fighting just for transfer of power he asked what difference will it make to the people of our country if in place of Lord reading and Lord Irwin we will have Thakudas and one more name he gave some other name he gave what difference will it make then he goes on to say unless while liberating India from the shackles of imperialism we also take India on the path of socialist reconstruction there will be no difference made to the people of our country today after three decades Bhagat Singh is more true than he was in 1931 three decades of globalization thank you so much sir some of though I have many questions but whatever you said it was a part of some of my questions I have one more question like India is a country where the education system is quite different from other part of the world and here I think we need a different method a different way to run an education system as it right now said the last sentence we need a political liberal method to come out of this problem so sir if there are some students who really want a reformation in Indian education system so what your guidelines what should be the first starting point of a student or those reformer should take because it's a big challenge for a student there are so many fights a student need to face when he or she is on a way to reform education system in India what should be the first challenge the first step he should take in this field are you a PhD scholar here it's a master in education what is your research area right now I have just stepped in this field of education so I need to know like from where should I really need to work so that I can know if you are undertaking research you must undertake research and find out the truth find out the sattya don't bypass it that's my suggestion to you but answer to question is available the days of reform reform of the kind you are interested in I am interested in all of us are interested in days of reform are over I know this reform world is a neoliberal world I am using reform world in the context of our constitution neoliberalism and constitution are contradictory to each other if you want I can expect about it but I am sure you know that in the context of perspective of the constitution the days of reform are over there are no ways known to people like us they can now reform the great wonderful opportunity and gave us in 1972 it was not prepared to give us after 2002 people asked me can we re-establish HSTP in 1972 India was although it was not a welfare state in the real meaning of welfare at least it was feigning to be welfare state trying to show to the people convince the people that we are a welfare state we are still following the constitution of India but today constitution is in danger and what kind of reform will you do if you say we want to provide every child and every youth equitable quality of education this agenda will mean death of neoliberalism and neoliberalism death cannot be wished for we have to fight for it neoliberalism is a management strategy of capitalism to survive when Jharkhand people say no to the decision of the state government to take over their minds and they agitate they take out rallies in Ranchi and their short act or their leadership is imprisoned or all kinds of false charges are put on them what will you do we are asking for reform in the mining policy whom you will use say this the ruling class itself is advocating and imposing that mining policy at the behest of the multinational corporate capital please recognize it it's not a simple thing how will you deal with it by saying I want better education for all children we all want better education for all children I want bad education for our country's children you will only be allowed permitted to work within the given constraints and never challenge the constraint the moment you challenge the constraint you will be thrown out as HSTP was thrown out therefore most of the NGOs have learned to adjust instead of transforming the school they found many escape routes in order to survive so they say alright we are not allowed to improve the school system so we will wait until evening or late afternoon when children come out of the school they hold special classes and fill up the gaps of the schools they don't call themselves coaching classes but no different from the coaching classes but they are happy with it if we are doing something good for our poor people depends upon what conscience you have is the conscience we satisfied by opening a coaching class for children of the government schools or would you rebel and go to the roots of the problem and fight against the ills of the entire system I am just recalling Gandhi's beautiful words I was writing something about Gandhi a few days ago very powerful words he was referring to the Macaulian system and he was saying somewhere around 1924 wrote in young India he says the system must be scrapped referring to the Macaulian system now building up the Daikalim for free independent India the system must be scrapped scrapped inquiry must be instituted and action must be taken to liberate us from the shackles of Macaulian's education such powerful words and we need to use those words again and again quoted it in 19 in the context of 1924 I quoted it in the epilogue of my article what he said in 1924 needs to be said right now in 2019 I re-quoted and I mean every word of it and I have I met IS officer by chance in the last few couple of years amazed those IS officers tell me you know you are HRI you are a good good that you meet me very happy and he says to me you know we have done something very good in our state in recent years what is this I was education secretary I started this what is that you started we are doing activity based program I knew about what he is doing what the state is doing I said yes I know so we took help from Tamil Nadu Tamil Nadu is doing activity based program so we have started it I said don't you read the history of your state when you become IS officer he said what do you mean I know the history of the state I did people not tell you for 30 years we did not do activity based in the state the activity is major dilution of the whole idea of knowledge we did experiment based learning of science not activity based learning he says is there a difference I said of course activity is meaningless and directionless it does not you deal logically with the situation experiment based learning is based upon the method of science and scientific temper it has been done in Madhya Pradesh then I somewhere mentioned your government provided kit to 750 schools we also provide kit so he called his assistant who came with files and he asked me you have any queries I said yes I said yes I asked a concerned person I said the kit which you gave is it meant for demonstration by the teacher or for hands on experiment by the children this is not enough we give there is an experiment there is an activity every child does it then the IS officer intervenes no no no all children do it I said can I see your list one look at the kit list because we are all involved in making kits I said this kit will allow only the teacher to do experiments how do you know I said read the kit list took me one minute or less to know it is meant only for the teachers I cannot imagine the state government of today think of getting children to do experiments with their own hands cannot imagine in the present day of neoliberalism adjustment made another mockery experiment based learning of science these adjustment they will make if you want to be part of that become part of it that is your democratic right you want to fight against it destroy it use Gandhi's language the system must be scrapped inquiry must be instituted and McCauley's school system must be destroyed I'll add McCauley Manuwadi school system must be destroyed there is no way out if you are not willing this is what we are doing in our all India forum for right to education which I represent here we are fighting for building up two point program only two point program written in my introduction of the poster only two point program build up a nationwide common education system from KG to PG entirely cost free for every child irrespective of class or caste background equitable free of all kinds of discrimination with children of the denotified tribes children of the transgenders everybody has equal right to education that's the constitution of India speaking I am not speaking read article 14, article 15 1, article 16 article 21 I am reading the constitution interpreting it for education and KG to PG higher education also has to be free if you don't do it you will have a doctor whose parents have spent 50,000 they have spent on the doctor 5 crore rupees to make the doctor MD when the doctor comes out with a MD degree what do you expect the doctor to do what is her or his top priority after becoming getting a MD degree a 5 crore degree for which the parents their property is mortgaged the top priority of that doctor would be to mint money out of practice so the loan can be paid back the property can be retrieved from mortgage how will the doctor be able to fulfill the latin oath which every doctor takes at the time of getting degrees I will serve the society I will work for the patient work for the ill remove eliminate disease how can this doctor do it is not that something wrong with that particular human being you compelled that human being in such a situation the doctor will know only to loot the people of India you are compelling engineers you are compelling computer hardware people computer software people now artificial intelligence scientists everybody is being compelled to loot the society and inequality has increased beyond imagination now in 2017 you must have read one percent of Indian people collected 73% of the income of 2017 the gap between rich and the poor is higher than it was ever in India not even in British India it was so bad whom we shunted out of the country because they were exploiting us and whenever you increase in inequality you create tension in the society instability in the society then beautiful ideas of good education started in that society things are of that nature now Inequality is a basic fundamental problem of Indian politics and Indian society fundamental problem poverty is a consequence of inequality we should all know that we should realize it with our heart understand it from the heart not from the mind but from the poor not because they are poor but because they are rich we are so proud of saying now we are coming close to the American list of billionaires billionaire becomes billionaire only by exploiting the poor in 93% of the unorganized sector these are the real hardcore situation this is the coordinate of our political economy and our society how will you introduce equitable education of good quality for every child in India therefore in all the forum on one hand we are fighting against common education system for establishing common education system a democratic, scientific, secular enlightened education system that will liberate the people from their shackles of enslavement on the other hand we are fighting against commercialization of education our demand is to stop all foreign direct investment in education we are fighting for that fighting against all attempts to do public-private partnership in the field of education because that means transferring people's money which is kept in trust by the government passing the people's money to rich schools and to rich sections of society which is the more mantra of the present government previous governments also PPP so PPP has to be kept using Gandhi's word that should be kept if you want to save not just education health also India is a rich country whose people are poor the rich country is not going to help the masses of our country otherwise it won't become rich we rather be like Bhutan a small little country depended about Indian protection is education system is a common education system children of the royalty also study and they don't talk about economic growth rate they don't talk about becoming superpower they don't talk about how much resources they have to make satellites and rockets they say our index of society is happiness index we are happy people our schools are happy our hospitals are happy our society is happy our society is happy I think Bhutan should become our new Vishwaguru we will be happier people any other question Sir my question was related to the activity kid related thing only basically you have answered that but in our school I am teaching in one of the schools in Mumbai and our school has activities for all the students every student perform the activities the kids are provided to know that during your time and you said that HSTP your program that time government was sponsoring those 16 to 17 schools not such a 17 750 schools that's what you said so at that time if government could afford of that state why can't the governments afford right now there are many private companies which are coming up with such kids and they are charging you are talking about 500 rupees per kid 1100 rupees per kid they are charging 5000 rupees per student for around 8 or 9 kids in that case if you will see it's bomb amount for a school whatever it may be but if that is the situation at that time government could afford how is that government is not able to afford it now both have already given I will give it again in a different manner at that time the state government in Madhya Pradesh and other states also was not under the pressure of structural adjustment program it could decide how to use this money number one second it was not under the pressure of privatizing schools by giving public by doing public private partnership by passing on this money under different names, under different excuses to the private schools and the owners of the private schools these two pressures were not there its only agenda was to improve the government school system in education therefore the government schools in cities like Bhopal Indore, Gwalior, Jabalpur and X number of other places were amongst the best up to mid 90s among the best people used to line up QUP in the schools in order to get their children admitted they used to get recommendations from MLA's and IS officers to get the children admitted and today those school buildings are empty they've been destroyed when Acer reports Acer brings out a report Pratham report and they report how children do not learn how many do not learn every year I look through the beginning and the end of the report to find somewhere one page, half a page saying how this situation has been arrived at how the children were learning very well in 70s, 80s and 90s are not learning anymore what has gone wrong even talk to the leadership of that organization please write a paragraph just don't report how many don't learn to write half a sentence how many don't learn how to divide or multiply of two digit numbers that we know they don't learn tell us how it happened how the disaster happened institute an inquiry and write the report of the inquiry before discrediting the system year after year but they want to discredit rather than analyze the analysis will lead them to very painful conclusions it's a planned conspiracy to destroy the government school system I said India is a rich country at that time the central government was not required to exempt 3 lakhs to 4 lakh crore rupees of taxes of corporate capital in 70s and 80s this was not the situation it started after globalization it was not required by any political pressure from outside to reduce subsidies there was no WTO in 70s and 80s or even up to mid 90s to tell us you cannot liberate the farmers from the debt they are suffering from they know WTO controlling our decisions no world bank and no IMF controlling us at that time those situations are transformed if we don't deal with the questions of political economy we cannot solve the questions of welfare education health and happiness this one last question I am allowing so all these truths that you were talking about have been reading about it for like 5 years and got to agitated reading the newspaper every day so I came to Mumbai to do this to do my main education and after listening to you I just have 4 words is there still hope you did what is there still hope for our education system I wrote in my today's handout also there is lot of hope there is lot of hope hope is always there without hope there is no need for me to stand here there is hope and there is hope when we analyze politics and political economy intelligently logically then we reach a conclusion to build up a resistance movement when Gandhi said burned a foreign cloth it's a very violent mandate he adopted very violent person of non-violent says burned the cloth why did he do so he gives figures now 60 crore rupees at that time it was a very big number 60 crore rupees are being lost by India every year because we buy foreign cloth so instead of importing foreign cloth start producing start weaving spinning right here you won't need the foreign cloth will save 60 crore rupees for the poor people of our country so burned it he arrived at this through economic analysis there was no other option which he had but to give this slogan lead the movement for burning cloth to analyze the situation why salt satyagra salt was going to be imposed levy cannot take levy on salt which is taken in every family of the country his march was symbolic but the British government under symbolic march had to withdraw the levy so if my lecture does not make sense please read Hinsoraj read is this very powerful book called law in the lawyers recently somebody gave me a reddit law in the lawyers written by M.K. Gandhi and introduction they are written by someone else editor talks of what happened in the trial held on 18th march 1922 in Ahmedabad here is a person almost naked with land cloth standing in the place for culprits and the judge enters some Mr.Bloomhoom he enters he takes his seat and bows down before Gandhi Gandhi returns and smiles and then Gandhi says can I make a short statement before you read my written statement yes you can make a short statement so what does he say he said you are charged me with sedition under 124A same charge which was put on same charge 124A you charge me under 124A he is a person who is a barrister also lawyer under your under your law which I do not accept under your law I am a culprit you want to punish me punish me to the hilt I will punish you Mr. Judge to give me the serious possible punishment which your law permits I will take the punishment but I refuse to accept the law powerful statement refuse to accept and here is my written statement you can read it and written statement is also quoted in that book by the editor a part of it where he says you came here to exploit us and loot us you looted us enough you did Jaliyawala bag I reject your rule I do not accept it now do whatever you want to do powerful clear words coming from Gandhi what what do you ask for from a person like me why do you ask from a person like me what will I answer from Gandhi I am a Nazi but atleast we can take the blame we will not ask I still want to learn how to teach children well I sit under a tree and teach 5 children well teach this to 5 children I will recall and I should finish my dear friend Subra is getting impatient might have heard of this probably the most revolutionary trade union leader of India in the history of India Shankar Gohan Yogi from Chhattisgarh area he was shot dead in 1991 because he became too revolutionary for like steel plant and all the big corporate houses there I am not going into that story but he about a month before his assassination he wrote a article of environment I think that is a very appropriate thing to recall what do we learn from environment what do we learn from environment the beautiful powerful article we have published it in that he says he refers to the attack on Iraq by United States with all kinds of poisonous bombs then he says I have grown 5 trees of what is it called date trees I have planted 5 trees in my garden they are growing well but 5 trees in my house will they be able to save the people who are throwing bomb on the people of Iraq I think I don't need to add anything more I conclude my gosh my gosh you should have mentioned while I was speaking your grand uncle only person with a Ghanaian conscience in the entire department and you are a Bhopal person committee we will join hands to build a resistance movement in Bhopal friends who all have I see that two young ladies talking about their MBA or whatever study my only request is that if your intent is there intent is a very powerful word and in Hindi it is Niyat everything depends upon our Niyat our intent if it is there don't give it up it is a great opportunity you are listening to this person and about Niyogi he published the life of Niyogi can you believe this and the money was collected 5200, 100 rupees 10,000 rupees or whatever so it is that you see he has a pacemaker there now I was worried how much more energy he is going to pump out but whatever is in your mind collect with like-minded people that is the only and only way nothing to fear about it whatever you can do in your given circumstances that is important thanks for this our inspiration by you people who have asked such positive questions which shows your intent but please do not allow it to dilute that is the only friendly advice I can share with you thanks Anil thank you and I am sure there will be more questions outside so let's meet for tea