 Good morning and welcome to Moments with Melinda. I am your host, Melinda Moulton. And today, my guest is Cammie Davis. How are you, my friend? I'm great. I'm loving watching the trees leaf out every moment, soaking it up. Today is the day, but we're gonna get into that because there's also probably a little bit of concern in your mind as well, which we're gonna talk about. But let me share with my viewers a little bit about your illustrious and amazing career. Cammie Davis has attended artist residencies at the Vermont Studio Center and BAM Center for the Arts in Alberta, Canada, and has exhibited throughout Vermont, New York, and San Diego. Her work is in private and public collections nationally. She is the recipient of the Lee Krasner Jackson Pollock Foundation Grant for painting, as well as grants from both the Argosy and Puffin Foundations for painting in collaboration with composer Sam Gwarnacha. Her paintings, installations, and community art projects have followed the climate change movement for the last decade. She is interested in the role, perception plays in understanding the human nature relationships and considers studio practice to be her fundamental means to navigate life in a warming world. Davis is a member of the International EcoArtNetwork.org and W-E-A-D, the Women Environmental Artist Directory. She is a senior lecturer in the Department of Art and Art History, and I believe also in the Environmental Studies Program at the University of Vermont. Did I get that right? Almost, I am just as of Tuesday receiving my emeritus status. I have retired from teaching after 34 years with the Department of Art and Art History at UVM. And I'm thrilled to actually have emeritus status to continue relationships there. But yeah, I have moved away. I've been on sabbatical this last year. So a year ago, May was my last teaching, which is huge, huge transition. It is huge, but now you have this wonderful world to go out and do your great work. So let's, Kimmy, let's start at the beginning. I was born. Yeah, no, seriously, I always want my viewers to understand the people that I'm talking to. And as a friend, I would love it if you'd share with my viewers a little bit about growing up. Where did you grow up? It's also a little bit about your childhood. Oh, wow. I was born in, excuse me, I was born in Connecticut. And when I was five years old, I moved to Troy, New York. I was, my father had gone to RPI and had an opportunity to, he was an anesthesiologist and had an opportunity to return to his alma mater. And he was thrilled. My mother was less thrilled. She became, eventually she loved Troy. But, and Troy right now is very exciting arts center. But anyways, yeah. And I would say one of the biggest influences was, and it's something that you may not know, Melinda, like your granddaughters, I was a ski racer, a downhill ski racer. So that brought me to Vermont, all over New England, and then eventually all over the country through the Can-Am series, which is now, I believe, called NORAMs. But anyways, the national B team and then the top regional skiers. So mountains, hiking, skiing, were very influential. And yeah, and I would say still. And you had a knee, you had issues with your knees and you gave up the racing. Yes. We're also a coach at Green Mountain Valley School. And so do you still ski? Do you ever get out and get up on the mountain or cross-country? Do you still ski? Well. I am going in for a total knee replacement, May 8th, with the goal to get back up on that mountain. So I'm really psyched about that. When you do, will you give me a call and we'll do a few runs at Mad River? Yes. I'd like to spend a day with you. Yes, I would love to do that. And also let me know if you need any chicken soup or anything in your recovery, because you know I'm always there for you. Thank you. So at what point in your life did you realize that you wanted to be an artist? You know, I was always doing kind of arts and crafts kinds of things. I was always making always. And I wouldn't say I was the art star, say in elementary school, but in high school we had, I went to a girl's school and we had something equivalent to a January term and I did choose painting and I painted a mountain. So I would say in high school, by college I was really torn between you had to choose and yet I sensed, I knew that there was a relationship, but I had to choose between environmental studies or studio art and I ended up choosing studio art. But that burr in my side of going, wait a minute, I intuit that there's a relationship here and trying to articulate what that relationship is was a really great burr that I think has propelled my thought process around my studio practice to this day that's always evolving, you know, how I see that human nature relationship. Well, let's talk about that for a second and the painting that's right behind you. This is a Debbie prayer. Talk to us a little bit about your beautiful painting that's behind you. So Debbie prayer started with noticing the apple blossoms in my neighborhood and my concern about the Honey Bee collapse and there's, so it started with these images of apple blossoms and then they're actually, you can't see, but they're little diagrams of the Honey Bee waggle dance also on the painting, they're really, and it took three years to make this painting and so over the course of the painting, those apple blossoms became different things in my association. I think of the practice, I think of a painting itself as being an ecosystem in the sense that they're concepts, associations, intuitions, embodied responses. So it's a series of relationships. So there was time, there were times when those apple blossoms became the lotus of Buddhism or the, and then the white rows of mystic Christianity. These are not necessarily things that I am actually thinking about any longer, but so they do reflect a kind of all the work reflects a dialogue between inside and outside perception, that there's the phenomenon of those blossoms, what they look like, the representational part of that, but there also, there's this invisible realm or this felt realm, this subjectivity and I'm always kind of thinking about the integration really of objectivity and subjectivity as being what is whole. And at a young age, you talked us a little bit about that, the emergence of the environment into your work, into your creative work and what inspired that focus for you back in the 1990s, which took you to the Schumacher College and the International Institute of Ecological Studies in Devon, England, what was that spark? So again, mountains were really big in my life in terms of skiing, in terms of hiking. I worked with the Appalachian Mountain Club in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. I chose to go to artist residency in the Canadian Rockies and Banff and I would say that the work has always been curious about a sensed presence in nature. And so it took this arc really of notions of the sublime in nature, something greater, larger than us, even terror, these kind of characteristics of the sublime. The work very quickly became what's called non-objective, it was very geometric, but I'm thinking about the presence and they were big canvases, they had burnished metal and paint and oil paint and trying to get that sort of metallic fleck of the rocks above Timberline. And so I was interested in those states of awe in the studio practice. What happened in 1998 is I went and studied at Schumacher College with James Hillman, the Jungian psychologist, and the title of that course was Inside Outside Perception, Psychology, Ecology and Art. And it was as if I opened my eyes for the first time after 25 years of painting, again, what's called non-objectively, there weren't any pictures of anything that's recognizable. And I was still trying to incorporate internal felt form of my sense of this presence, this ever kind of abiding presence while also beginning to include recognizable imagery. And I'm still in that place, that started. So again, after painting for 25 years, one way I shifted, it was such a profound course at Schumacher. And ever since I've been playing with that dialogue between what's recognizable, what's not, and I've come to additional ways of thinking about the process itself, improvisation itself as reflecting the way life works. Nora Bates and the daughter of Gregory Bates and talks about in nature and in art, what you have are these multiple levels of communication that happen simultaneously. So that's similar to when I was saying that idea, is you have concepts, you have associations, you have felt form, you have in the moment responses, embodied responses, you can feel rhythms and all of these multiple levels happen at the same time. And so the process itself of improvisation to me is the process of life. It's the same even if there wasn't recognizable imagery. It's fascinating. So do you believe that art defines civilization? I don't know about that in terms of define, but I would say that I would actually kind of reverse it in a sense of that we are situated within life because we have co-evolved with the rest of life. And those notions of when I look at the stars, I am the universe reflecting on the universe, we're not the only species, apparently crows do that and there are other species that have this self-reflective capacity. I think a lot about particularly with the work with Sam Gronaccia, Paula Gronaccia, his creative partner and wife, and John Chamino, the educator aspect of this emergent, universal oratorial project, I think a lot about are we different or not than the rest of life? And certainly, and resistant to any sort of hierarchy or elevation hubris of us thinking that we're better or different because of certain capacities. The humans, the humans do. Yes, yes, do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the bower bird, do you know about the bower bird who loves to make homes out of blue things it finds? It'll find plastic trash, it'll find blue flowers, it'll make these incredible creations. And of course, we can explain that away. Oh, it's just like the peacock trying to attract a mate, but the amount of creativity that goes into that is extraordinary and you can't help but think that there's also appreciation for those architects. Well, I've been also studying probably not just the degree that you do, trees. Absolutely. And I have trees in my yard who create art, the way that their branches reach out and touch other trees and they create art amongst themselves. And I've watched this for 53 years about how they create their own art and how they position themselves to create this extraordinary beauty. No, we have so much to learn as human beings from around us. And that's why your art is so powerful and important, Cammy. So as an artist, and you may have touched on this, you have taken your creative works and merged the visual with your voice. Your paintings are just one part of your creative works. Talk to us about your exhibitions that have focused so profoundly on the fate of our species on this planet because your work has a voice. It's not just you put the work up and it's a pretty picture of a sunset, over Lake Champlain or some landscape. Three years you worked on the painting that's behind you. You have a voice, you speak with that. Talk to us a little bit about that. Well, as you asked that question, the first one that came to mind, the exhibit that came to mind is, oh gosh, I think it was of land and local at Burlington City Arts. And that was a group exhibition, which I love group exhibitions. I love having, because I'm thinking with voice, it's as much about the creative act of curating these themes or concepts of relationships between groups of artists. And that in itself is, as I say, both creative, but also has a voice, the curation. I am interested in the ideas that can then happen. I am interested when you get to talk about work and particularly at panels of artists whose ideas are, I mean, yes, an art object is also thought of as being irreducible, that it's beyond words, but it's also really interesting to try to articulate what's going on in the work and then share that like in a community of artists. And that particular exhibit of land local, I did a series called Air's Water, Soil's Places. And it was a combination of paintings, yeah. And it was a combination of, first of all, I'm riffing the title, I'm riffing off of Hippocrates, Air, Soil's Places, who way back then was saying, we need to have clean waters and clean air in order to have healthy places. So there were paintings, but there were also these jars which took water samples and plant samples and macroinvertebrates from all the tributaries, not all a number of tributaries in Lake Champlain and then Lake Champlain and etched on those jars were the invasive species that are starting to affect the health of Lake Champlain. So in that way, it has a voice. There's this concept, there's this form of activism really in a very overt way. My more recent exhibition, Poetic Ecologies is less overt, but still a voice in the sense of this perceptual sense of understanding where does the subjectivity, that subjectivity is also needing to be at the table, that it's not just our practical solutions to create a flourishing world, but we know that the facts alone have not been enough. And it's really an evolution of love, love for each other and love for this home earth that I think is going to bring us together. I mean, give us any possibility of being able to go forward. So I've been grappling with, is it okay to be that heart centered in the work without it being as overtly activist? But I think that's where a lot of the energy is right now is finding frameworks, readings on ecology and thought that support that. And there are different entries into that. One is the emergent universe oratorio, this idea of our co-evolution and where we're situated as humans within all of life. Another would be indigenous thought, another would be their different writers who talk, Jeremy Lent talks about integrating our animate intelligence with our intellectual capacity. Vermonter, I just discovered, David Hinton. I always thought it was a West Coast poet and translator talks about paleo mind. And so there's this idea of getting in touch with this shared kinship with the rest of life that you can access from different thought frameworks. But you've been doing this for decades. I'm gonna go back in time for a second here and engage you to discuss the earth. I mean, you've been doing this work for decades. So let's engage you in discussing the earth charter. Talk to us about that and share with us the Ark of Hope project which you collaborated with many, many people, one in particular who we both love so dearly is Sally Linder. I remember the culmination event at Shelburne Farms where Jane Goodall spoke and several thousand people came out. Talk to us a little bit about that project because that was extraordinary. And here you are 20 some years later and we're still trying to hammer it home. Talk to us about that. Yeah, so that was definitely one of the big experiences of my life, co-creating that, co-producing it with Sally Linder who was also painter. And we created a community arts project called Temenos Books, Images for Global Healing, Peace and Gratitude. And then Sally worked with a carpenter to create this Ark of Hope that looks like the Ark of the Covenant only it was covered with differently abled people and the animals of the world. And that was to house these books that were made when this international document called the Earth Charter was to go to the UN for endorsement. And the Earth Charter basically was early days of talking about this intersectionality of economy, ecology and justice and that you need all of those in order to make peace. How old was this? What year was this, Cammy? So in 1992, the Earth Charter tried to get created at the Rio Earth Summit, it didn't happen. So then actually a good and interesting project happened which was that it then became more grassroots. So instead of being top down UN, it became so many, many people at the lead of Steven Rockefeller who was the chair of the drafting committee, many, many people had input individuals and environmental organizations as to basically trying to address a way forward. And I forget your question. Well, you carry the Ark. I remember you were- Oh, right. Okay. I mean, this was in the night and you carried this big, heavy, I believe you carried it. It went, so what happened was, yeah, so let me backtrack a little bit with the Tamanos books because there were thousands of Vermonters who were introduced to the Earth Charter. Were you one? I was one, yes, I was. And we went to 50 schools and we went to sustainability conferences and we went to businesses and we introduced them to this remarkable document. And then we had them make images. Some people made whole books, other people just made a page that would then go into artists made books. And then Sally's concept was to then put them into this arc of hope and again, to go down to the UN. So all that was a buildup to the 2001 is when the event at the breeding barn at Shelburne Farms happened. And it was for Love of Earth, a celebration of the Earth Charter. And I also want to credit Sally with that title because, you know, there were all these different, again, more practical or the language of sustainability and we just look at each other and it's like, yeah, but it's for Love, you know. Well, it is for Love and actually sustainability doesn't even work so much anymore today. It doesn't. It's really adaptability. We have to learn to adapt and do what we can. So thank you for that because that was an extraordinary project and really touching. Oh, can I say one more thing? Yes, please do. So what happened was there was this huge event at Shelburne Farms. We did a silent pilgrimage walk with Satish Kumar, the founder of Resurgence Magazine and Schumacher College in the UK. We had Jane Goodall. We had Paul Winter. We had, you know, we're supposed to have Wangari Matai but she was back in jail. But it was an amazing day of Love. We were led in a meditation by a Buddhist ecologist, Stephanie Khaza and all the participants made an image that then got put into the arc. The intent was the arc would then go to the UN when the Earth Charter was supposed to come up for endorsement. So this was September 9th, 2001. So we all know what happened on September 11th. So what happened was I was in class but Sally was there with a number of artists cleaning up from this event when the news of 9-11 happened. And we had just come on this silent, very short walk from the parking lot to this event with Satish Kumar because he was the world walker for peace decades ago. And she knew in that moment that it was time to walk the arc. And so it got walked up to Burlington and then there was a little cart that got made under it but it got walked all the way down to just above New York and it got on the sloop, whatever that guy's name is, sorry. And then sailed into the UN. Wow, magnificent project. Yeah. So we're coming sort of to the end of our interview but I have a couple of other questions that I wanted to ask you. As someone who endeavors to make sense of our world can you help us to make sense of it under the present circumstances of global warming, reproductive justice, the human and natural conditions and all of the other issues that are facing humanity? Yes, that is the question, isn't it? Yeah, that's the constant driver. And I think that's why perhaps there's still it's like the painting is almost like a reflection of this back to that inside outside perception of trying to understand this role of love in trying to summon and contextualize whatever our solutions are and it's not solution is the wrong word, whatever we are able to align ourselves so that I love using Janine Benes align ourselves with conditions conducive to life. And there's a lot of listening that has to happen for that alignment and the painting helps me to listen. And this work that I'm doing with the oratorio project that I've returned to that first began in 2013 where I did paintings at the scale 14 paintings to go along with the emergent universe oratorio. We spent the pandemic rewriting that libretto there's seven major choral pieces and then they spoke in words in between to more accurately to our understanding, reflecting these times, both the social and ecological unraveling and much of which needs to unravel to then relieve whatever will flourish. How do we live with not knowing exactly what's going to flourish, what's going to emerge? It's the nature of existence is complexity and emergence. But I feel like if we stack the deck with as many behaviors that are in alignment with conditions conducive to life that even what unknowns emerge are more likely to help us all flourish. So where can we hear this oratorio? Where can we? So the oratorio is going to be performed by Albany Pro Musica in May, 2025. Okay. Most likely at RPI at M-PAC, the emergent, no, not emergent, sorry, Experimental Media and Performing Arts Center at RPI. And what's additional with this project is we also will have a day long symposium or other speakers building up to the performance. And what I'm working on and I'm working with an animator, Will Tipper, who is Vermont born and raised, but Brooklyn-based animator and using assets or the details of the paintings in an 80-minute animation that'll be part, that'll be projected the whole time of the oratorio. That is so exciting. And that's certainly something that I would so love to attend and be there for them. So exposing, Kami, what words of wisdom can you offer our young people today about how they can maneuver in the 21st century and how they can have influence to help guide them in their own futures? Yes. Trust your love. Trust. Trust and possibility. Trust in the models of a Greta Thunberg that even trust in your collective voice. Or Will Tipper. Trust in young leaders that are emerging. Yes. Because there are so many. Yes. I think our future really is in good hands with the future of humanity because of these extraordinary young people. Yes. Helping to guide us. And to have as many embodied experiences as you can too. We're all very addicted to our devices, myself included. It's very true, very true. Consciously being in the world. Hopefully we can use that in some ways for good. Well, listen, Kami Davis, extraordinary time, half an hour with you. I could talk to you for days. And I wanna thank you for everything you've done and everything you're doing and for your leadership in the art world and the environmental consciousness that you're bringing into all of our hearts through your art and through your lectures and your work. So thank you for that and thank you. And to my viewers, I wanna thank you for your time today and I wanna wish you a beautiful springtime. And the apple blossoms will be blooming soon and hopefully all those beautiful bees that Vermont loves to take care of will return very shortly. Thank you so much, my friend.