 My name is Taylor Bach, I'm a resident artist at the Hero Arts Center and I've been interviewing harp artists for HowlRound. If you don't know what harp is, I'll give you the spiel again. Harp is a program at the Hero Arts Center, a Hero Arts Resident Artist or something like that. It stands for who knows. I've only known about it for 25 years and been in it and have no idea what it stands for, our artist resident program. And what it does is it's they give artists multiple years to work on a piece and there's more to it than that. Sometimes they will produce your work, sometimes they'll co-produce, sometimes you produce. It's always artists run, so it's what you want to do with your work and what your process, what you need for it. It tends to be kind of hybrid work. Sometimes there's technology but not always. And I wouldn't necessarily describe the work as commercial, although some commercial things have popped out of it. It's really kind of artists going after what they want outside of any kind of profit system. And I'm here with two of my favorite artists in New York City, and I wanted to ask you to introduce yourself and introduce your project and then let's talk about it. Sure. Hi Taylor. Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in today and thank you to here and all around for this platform and this open space. So I'm Jimena Garnica and I work with my partner. And Shige Moria. And we are both interdisciplinary, multi-disciplinary artists, choreographers, directors. We just, we made things and we are curious about a lot of the labor and the imagining of spaces and things and relationships. And we are based in Brooklyn, in our studio. It's a converted garage called Cave. And we also have a company called the Lame Ensemble. It's a group of national and international dancers and performers and work together throughout the year with us creating works but also cultivating practice and physical conditionings of bodies to sort of like give a space to this idea of the in between or the in between a space which is something that we try to embrace in our practice often. And when I met you in, when I met you in 2008 I think, was Lame part of, had you created it yet? Was it, has it always been this from the beginning of your collaboration, the two of you? Kind of a starting point around the time that the ensemble was the starting point. Lame has like, it means different things depending. One of the things that it means is our structure, our legal structure, right, like being a nonprofit and trying to create a structure to, or resources to sustain our work. And then the name of the ensemble. And then sometimes she and me, we call ourselves Lame. So it's, it's, it's a little bit of an identity crisis all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is it fair to say that it's sprung out the work sprung out of buttoe or is that not, is that not quite right? It's, it's a Japanese word, Lame, it's a Japanese means, the meaning, the moment between the light coming out of the darkness, the moment of dawn, that's Lame, that moment of dawn, but also it means the change between one era to another era. So it's that moment of change. So I think when she gets to think about Budo or work, that liminal, that moment of in between is embedded in the word Lame. Yeah. And the interest in that lightness as a darkness, because I know you guys, and we'll talk about your upcoming piece in a bit, but first, I know you guys, you treat your lighting almost like, like it's part of the music composition, or it's a scene partner, or it's a lighting is a major, major aspect of what you do, not just architecturally. And could you talk about that a little bit? Because it's very rare for companies to treat lighting as a partner more as something that they have to, they have to hire a designer for, you know what I mean? And it's such an intricate part of what you guys do. I'm sure Chiga has a specific thing to talk about it. What I want to say is that we're looking at how we make a sandwich of different materials, elements, materialities. So the body is a material and an entity. So it's elements. So sometimes in our pieces, we have water, or we have haze, or we have strings, or we have light. So light is also a material in itself. And the space is another material, you know, anything that we're trying to make an assemble with. And you want to say more? I mean, as she said, it's, it's one of our elements that definitely lightens shadow. And we, you know, we don't specifically say, I'm choreographer or I'm designer or I'm, you know, sculpture. Any elements we have, we dig into and then create something. So light, we, I don't know how can I say about that. We like to, it's one of the elements we like to work with within ourselves. Well, it's, it's, we're always thinking about light and shadow, not just about the, the, the instruments of light and shadow, but also that relationality with the body. And, you know, when the body is in shadow, when the body is in the light, and that in betweenness that creates in the space. So, you know, light is, it's not an expensive thing, you know, like projectors are a little cheaper now. So it's a very available, it's available material to us. We are not working things that are available to us. That's always true. Okay. So talk to me about the meal. Is that new piece, has it changed? Are you still working on the meal with the, in the program, in our program? We are still working in the meal. We did a little detour because of COVID. And we can talk about that. But we, we did, I mean, I saw a video of the piece, your detour, which is like one of the more extraordinary things I've seen on the streets of New York. I mean, it's, well, why don't we just talk about that one right now and then we can get to the meal, get to the hearty meal. So you describe it, it's better for you to describe it than me. Well, the piece that you're talking about calls correspondences. With the boxes, and yeah, yeah. It's an installation performance, a public installation performance that has these different sculptural chambers that are placed in the urban space. They're filled with sun and then there is bodies inside the chambers. And then there is a mechanical system that is creating fluidization of the sun, which what it means is like a quick sun effect. And these bodies are constantly rising to standing, but they're constantly losing their food and then getting buried under the sun. And these sort of action continue and loops throughout again, to give the sense of infinity. And it was a piece that actually was created before COVID and we had it here and we wanted to share it for so long, but it was hard. It was not an easy piece to produce and also questions of being and coexistence and interconnectivity weren't so much involved, let's say. Like now these questions are in our face because we're asking every day about like what's the meaning of this life? What it means to be connected? What it means to be in isolation? What is our relationship with the environment and with nature? And how COVID has really heightened all these questions that many people have been dealing and working for so long. So the piece was there and we really wanted, there was there's a lot of, there has been and we know there's so much death and also there is no space to grieve and to celebrate what's happening to, you know, these bodies also leaving and coming back. And there is also a lot of birds. There's a lot of babies. We have friends who have babies last year as well. And it was kind of like the pieces here, you know, and here, as always, Kristin Martin always curious and always there for the artist, say, who has something? Does anybody has a piece I wanted to make? And we're like, we have this, but it's huge. And we really want to make it. And she just jumped and said, okay, let's make it happen. And we made it happen in the middle of the pandemic and that's her place. And it was, it was for those who didn't see it or don't know it. There's lone figures in these boxes in the public square. And so there's this element of isolation, but also they're wearing these gas masks so that it can breathe with all the or some kind of breathing filtration thing on their faces, so they can breathe with all the sand. So it's really, it brings up everything that we've been feeling. I'll speak for myself that I've been feeling during COVID times, this isolation, this weight and, and this desire in this desire to breathe and this desire to connect and being in public, but being separated and it's haunting and, and it's also quite beautiful at the same time. And there's different boxes in, within the square with these, you know, of course, gorgeous dancers that are inside that are going through this experience. So that's visually kind of what it looks like. So you can let your staff, the what you say, like this, that once you pass that, that first part, then there is the, the beauty and the poetry. And then, and then there is something else that then appears hopefully where, where there is not a human against nature sense only, but where maybe some things resolve in the, in the capacity of the body to achieve and to allow the space for the other matter, whether it's the light, the sun to actually have agency. And in that negotiation, not even negotiation in that let go of the individual agency, then a new relationality up here. And if people are patient enough to stay with the work, maybe that will also start resonating. And because all I saw was a video that from a piece, I didn't actually go and see it in person, because I wasn't in the city at the time that how, how was that, how was that navigated in terms of staying with the piece and people walking by in the street. And was everyone, were all the individuals dancers going through their own arc of that? Or were they all doing it all together? Could you watch one dancer and experience it, and then watch another dancer and experience it again? Or, or was it all one piece? It is one piece. So it is, it is one piece and it is connected. The scoring of each dancer is connected. Even though we are aware that the observer might not see the whole landscape that he must just like make close up, but the connection, the way it's built is as a connection already there. And it also has potential to shift, you know, the, it's a, it's a live space. But also the work is also seeing the people, seeing the work is also another layer of the work that gets a little in the video, but that was also fascinating. Oh, I'm sure I'm so jealous. We really hope you guys bring it back. We are looking forward to do it in other boroughs that our, our, our, our intention is to bring it to each borough in the city. So. Oh, good. Oh yeah. Well, hopefully somebody, somebody out there, you know, it's so good. I mean, when people just, when they see the, when they see the sample, they're going to want to do it. So, and my, my, my kind of question, my slightly obnoxious question is this is after I don't know your entire history, but I know most of it has been indoors. And so when you do a piece like this where you're in the public square and it, and it's so effective, does it just make you want to make work in the public square now from now on and not go back into theaters? I mean, the public square was fun. It's fun. But, you know, it's the stage works also fun. We have been doing, I mean, we have a lot of history of work that has been parallel to our stage work, which is in community gardens. And I've done work in community gardens and also even in a cemetery as well. So the outdoor has always been a part of it. We did something at Times Square, more of like a collaboration, but we did a staging for Room Full of Teeth and Carl and Sean. But so I've been always fascinated by the outdoors. It's a different space. It's a space that you can know it's very hard to work with light in the space of outdoors. And the indoors has has allowed us the conditions for the for controlling the light and the gaze of this theater here. You cannot control the gaze. You lose that control and that's wonderful. So I just I want to keep doing both. I love both spaces just for different celebrations and ceremonies and moments. Yeah. And so okay. So and speaking of which, the meal, why don't you talk to me about the meal? You're making a giant meal. Especially coming out of COVID time. Would you want to show the work sample? I think that I should just show you five minutes of our our our work so far. And then we talk then there is a little context for for the talk. She sounds great. That's great. Yeah. I'm going to show you. Okay, one second. Every single one. I mean, we're theater artists. Okay. Okay. Are we sharing now? What is your first memory of? Standing you guys. It's so wonderful. I just yeah. Who are you going to say about it? No, that is just to give context that there was a co a compilation of things that we've been doing since three years, three different working progress or so those weren't all the same performance. No, there were different different years. But was it shown linearly or just is just a sample of things, ideas that you're working on? It was linear. So the first one that was this sort of parade in the light that at the end ambles a round table. That was that was the first thing we did that there was no food. It was just this idea of how we create the place in which the table. Yeah. That's a great example of how the heart program works is you could just say, okay, we just want to figure out how to make the table and we're going to have a whole workshop just on how we make the table. You know, it's beautiful. But okay, it was of course, it was like it was a 40 minutes of how we make the table, but it was a 40 minutes prelude to the table. And then for the we don't show there for what happened was that it was a pot log and the audience brought food and then they put it on the table. And then we just ate and drink and talk at the end in the theater inside the theater. And that was like the first one. And then when you were with those, it was a little hard to hear. Did you give them prompts of things to talk about? Or were you saying things while they were speaking or is there audio that was playing that was asking those questions of do you know where your food comes from or things like that. So that's the second one. That's not the table one. Okay. That one belongs to another one we did here, our home studio at cave. And that one was totally different. There was no these spaces of fantastic fantasy or enchantment in a way. I mean, it was a different kind of enchantment, but it was more of a Cotodian. Let's just call it the Cotodian energy. There was more of a Cotodian space. And that time was the focus on how we can, one, create a conversation so that when you're so they're talking in a room, we gave five questions and they were sitting with strangers and they will talk, they will ask like, have you ever been hungry? You know where you are foods coming from? What are your ethics around food? For fast memory of food. Your first memory of food. And then people will have like, I don't know, it was like almost like 30 minutes, just this conversation. And then we made this really act of cutting this papaya together. She and me and then they were brought to another space where they were in silence for a full hour cooking together. And they were cooking arepas because I'm Colombian. And that is something that it's not just actually it's pre-Colombian arepas. It's something that you know we, it has this history of South American land, different countries have different kind of arepas. And she had mochi. Rice cake. It's also special for us. And so you gave that and you gave the audience instructions on how to make it or they were just helping the people whoever was actually cooking. They were making it the instructions for giving by gesture. Basically they were following the groups and dancers will sort of like make the motions and like pass it to them and hopefully they will understand. And they did it. It was beautiful for an hour. They were great. Nobody talked. They understood it was about silence that moment. And it was like they were dancing. They were the cooking was the dance. Yeah. The cooking. And then you take that and I'm assuming you did another workshop where you were like so the movement of pounding the actual food then becomes, gets taken away from the food and put again on the here arts center stage I think. Is that right? Well then then we're thinking about a little more theatrical what I call theatrical. And he's there's a little bit of more the creation of some mythological characters and archetypes you know. I was just oh it's the mushroom that you just ate. Oh she's gonna she's okay. Yeah it could be like really taking all that out taking the stories the also the tensions that that are present in the in this you know post-industrial relationship with food that that we have especially in the urban spaces. So we were trying to figure out yeah to create these monsters you know what like Peter Schumann from a better prophet called the gods these gods you know these beans. And the last workshop that we did at here was like a week before the theaters closed like well it was in March 2020 and we were able to have that intimate space downstairs and everybody was like this and they will look from one place and then suddenly something else was happening in another place and it was this search for these these these beans and and that's that's where we are at this point. Right and so kind of the obvious question is um with COVID coming in how is it changing your ideas about sitting down and having a meal with a lot of other people? Is it is it a patience game until until it's safe or is it completely changing the the understanding of what the how the work responds to the world? I think we need to figure out ways in which we still can come together I mean we still have to eat. We still have to cultivate spaces for togetherness and for sharing time. And especially soon I mean we're going to need healing rituals. I mean we need them right now but we're going to need them when we can all gather again. I think we are committed to figure out ways in which we can continue to make this um a live experience and it will require trust and care lots of care of the way we will just like we did at Astor Place you know we were quarantining for four weeks a whole company living together testing making sure that we were safe so that we can minimize risk I mean the risk is always going to be there until we all vaccinated right and even though we don't even know yet because we don't know whether the vaccine will fully work or not. So I think we have to find ways of togetherness uh understanding that that it's going to leave some people um out because there is issues with access immunocompromised people people that has less um you know possibility to take a risk than others. But are you planning on doing this um before people are vaccinated or is that I mean I mean we wanted before there's you know you want to do another workshop yeah that is still a workshop the premiere won't happen this year but this year we wanted to still do in the summer uh something uh that involves food a beginning how yeah people are going to restaurants every single day you know they sit in their bubbles so you know you guys can figure it certainly artists can figure it out. But I think for now for us the the the so the way that we work um probably now you're seeing it too and you're being um witness and other works it's uh there's a lot of work that um our research is experiential that's why it fits so well with the here model of giving artists all this time to play and yeah this is already being the piece right like the piece is not that product that we're going to arrive to the piece is this journey that we are engaging with yeah and if you have been a personal one like Shige um stopped eating meat for example a year a month ago yeah um we started for when the pandemic started um Mr. Ector who is the father of one of our team members was kind of was kind of trapped here because he couldn't go back to Mexico and he knew about hydroponics so we start growing hydroponics and learning how to make you know how to have a garden at cave oh wow and he ended up performing and he ended up performing in the piece he's the one with the two coconuts you know like that setting was real it was like his pandemic corner at cave was the hydroponics the little ceilings coming out of his daily life so it's been like a journey and now we are in the journey of understanding more um the issues with food in our city so we're we're um um we are um trying to um learn from community groups um from people who have a long history of uh growing food of um looking at issues of food justice and food sustainability uh learning about amazing farm places that exist in the city community gardens that have amazing history of um building community through food and and and the education of of how to share the food and also the tensions that are present in the urban garden and the urban agriculture scene because um there is a lot of any of it ever be organic in a city like how could you right when the chickens might be eating lead but like how can you have organic eggs you know in the city but at the same time how do you not want to push the city in that direction you know not give up on actually you can have organic things because they're their mechanism that is still to make the soil better for certain things I think they will get access to those organic things and we all know that who get access it's it's the privilege um so um how when we make a work like this you know we can make it all about the beauty of the food and all about um the how we together and that's where we come together and and there is no difference of class or privilege here but it is there is so we're also trying to figure out how we address uh that or how we cannot address it but at least how the work is conditioned and and if there is a space there to amplify work that is happening on the ground that it's the work of the farmers and the community organizers yeah how can we and also the social workers too because um you know y'all would go to the farmers market in berkeley and one of my favorite things and everyone was there paying the food stamps it was amazing that you could pay with food stamps at the farmers market I mean of course you should be able to but it's not always true in every place so uh so it's social workers in the in the city that are making stuff happen as well you know the activists yeah there is a lot of policy that needs to change for for that to to you know like there is a lot of all rules there are sort of like becoming roadblocks for people there is something about designation of mutual land trust and some of these places they are not able to sell the product because they don't have some destinations or this whole rule about the restaurants not being able to give away food and it's better to throw it to the garbage because it's actually there's a load that doesn't let you yeah so yeah so how are you how are you having to um navigate the legal system of new york city in order to serve food the eddish performance no i mean we this is we're just starting to grasp that part you know the complication yeah the complications we we entered in the way we could be uh like we know what we know right like we entered from where we know our materials are plain and now it's like okay this we have no idea and now we're into this and let's let's learn and you never know you're just like I've got this idea oh yeah it's gonna be so wonderful you're like oh no I have to learn about every all five million rules yep but that's part of the that's you gotta you gotta accept that it's fun or get out I mean that's part of the work right like if I mean I always feel when you're making um art or a piece of work that that is all these layers and the more you um you can listen to that multi-dimensionality of of of the materials of the subjects of the people that you're working with the spaces um the more enriched you are at the end of the day the more you feel alive because you learn something new and maybe you were able to transform a point of view that you had before or the or the or one that you didn't have you maybe get a point of view because maybe you didn't even have a point of view about something yeah yeah yeah I mean that that is you said it but it is the it's the beautiful thing about having time to make something is that is that the art can be the process and the art and that has always been the case for the two of you is that the art is just as much of the process as that performance right I mean I mean the process is the art as much as the performance and I and I um well I don't want this to go too long because they tell us that they people don't watch longer than 30 minutes but uh but I want to ask you um what do you need from the community is there something that that community can offer up to you um to help collaborate in making this work uh money time um butts and seats uh garden walks what do you need in order to do you need uh donated chairs do you need what what tell us what you need wow I mean of course there is always the one is like participation you know when when when we have this work in progress with when the piece premiere please come please please show up you know please engage because it's it's it's it's preparing something an experience for for for the people we don't know for our friends but also for the people we don't know and those ones just have to like trust and show off uh so that's that's that's one thing but of course there is the question of resources and and funding and um even though we have here as as as the place where the producer presenter is it is really a co-producer and we still have to raise um funds for that but also if there are people in the in outside of the arts that um are working with these issues of food justice food sustainability um figure out how the arts can be an alley how how the arts can can work cross sectors too and and what the work like these could amplify how a work like this can can also elevate and uplift each other I think it's important so if if if people have ideas like oh my I I'm a farmer or like I know this or we are going to be looking for people who wants to um who are not they don't have to be necessarily professional chefs but we want more collaborators like like people who maybe be like hey I I want to help I love food and I'm up for being in this piece because this piece is going to be I think it's going to be huge yeah yeah how do you make a piece I mean you could you could make a piece where there's five people and they're sitting down at dinner and you know you could make that piece and in fact most of the American theater has but but that's not what this is you are you are people you want to be you want an event like it has to be like a carnival a ceremony a celebration where there is a poetic beauty to it and and craft yes there is going to be these places of beauty and craft but there also should be these places of of the the coutolian that becomes imaginary because something else happened so I'm not sure what the format it's kind of unraveling right now um but there's something quite remarkable about um uh the release of performance and engagement with with the people that are sitting around you and then and then again um the tension of engaging in performance and then the release and then engaging there's something quite wonderful about that that dynamic um and you we don't see it enough in in performance so yay I mean there's something beautiful right because it's like we are always um we we are conditioned to experience time and space in certain energetic uh frequencies and then suddenly we have the high this other one the performative one and now I'm on audience and I'm supposed to be sitting and observer um yeah and and then maybe sometimes in certain moments in life like a wedding or a birthday celebration or a children playing or a tragedy I mean right we we definitely have it in in life and in rituals yeah in in weddings and um even going to church you know has it yeah but so how we make it all part of this life so that maybe maybe we're imbued our life what else can we make our coutodian life more imbued with magic and yeah and play I think as how can we make that part of our coutodian life means we have to like practice and experiment and then see if that happens yeah I mean people are I mean alone I I can't deal with people eating just you know like eating alone is a huge yeah I wanted to ask you that what has um moving to America changed your understanding of people eating is that is it culturally different in your uh in the countries that you were raised in or is it is it I mean is it just totally yeah talk about that a little bit about how that's affected this piece you can also I can I can always talk more you get you know that um is always the more quiet introspective one um you know yeah I mean one thing you know the funny thing uh Taylor when we presented this piece at here when we apply we couldn't agree which project we apply with so we send projects and we say I'm so sorry we're just sending two projects we don't tell you which one is the one behind what but the two projects and it actually was Chiggy's project you know that it was the food project mine was a different one um and I think our relationship we're also a couple if it's not obvious already um and um and a lot of our relationship is basing two things in making our work together and in eating together and um and food has been part of our um our making uh roots and our making um um it's life somehow yeah because the food is you know you have to eat every day somehow so it's it's a basic basic things for you uh means important but in Japan it's very important like he comes from a family where it's important to eat together and the father cooks whenever they visit they cooks and my family you know we have these things where you have to eat together like what you could be all busy but there is a time when you come and then and you come and you share the space together and you eat and and we do that here with the company you know like we're in work session and Chiggy say okay everybody food is ready and everybody comes to the table or when we go when we make works we go in retreats at least four times a year where we spend time sleeping and eating and cooking together that's part of our our how like it's how you build bonds yeah and cooking you know we always make the joke that sometimes we're invited to our friends dinner parties here but there was no dinner it was just dips like that's totally me i'm like i'm bringing the hummus and i even bought it from the store i was reading this book recently about the someone who was in the military you know and she she was eating every single day you know with the company all at the same time and then she comes back to the US for being overseas and she she's just like everyone's eating all the time they never stopped eating and it was a little fat phobia you know but it was also she was like i saw a woman waiting in line at a fast food restaurant in the drive through and she was eating before she got to the order the food because you don't have time right you don't have time but also it's just America makes me so sad sometimes the way that we eat and i and i wonder if covid is gonna change that i mean i definitely know my husband and i we when we're in the city we would always go out to eat and now we make every single meal you know together so i think it's changed our habit a little bit we'll see but there's something in that i absolutely yeah yeah yeah i'd like i like the ritual i i love rituals i i i think we don't have enough rituals and i um yeah yeah i love the ritual uh i like having it one day where i take the time to really make a nice meal one day a week you know and the other the other times are just like okay yeah i i want to do other things i'm talking too much you talk no no no it's true no no no because i think what you're saying it's like especially for us like i ask i'm making an assumption here like but we are pretty much city people i am a city i am a city girl and and but there is something about that tension of reclaiming the things um there there is a certain we we have been our rhythm of the relationship with the land has been broken that's just not just it this is real like it has been broken we also oh i want a tomato i want a really nice tomato and he's in the middle of uh snow storming February i still can get my tomato because i'm in the city right this is something you know this this is oh it's yeah it is something off or like in my case i come from a country with no seasons uh you know wearing the equatorial line so for me actually to arrive to that realization of scarcity of seasons uh or and then you see i'm calling an escargety but it's not scarces it's just changing changing the the the the the product of the land changing what the land is giving you and being attuned to that change we have lost that and i think cooking bring like bring us back to understand the material like then you're like oh okay if i put the oil olive oil hotter and then i put my garlic is better that or is worse that if i put the garlic and the olive oil at the same time you know like what is which one works better and you start learning that these things have agency and that you have to situate yourself not as the dictator of that but you also you kind of have to like open a space for for that to tell you what they need what they want and cooking does that you know making yeah that yeah there's something beautiful and it and it and it's so much about the pace of your of your your pacing is different from most uh art that i see you know like um and including mine even though mine's duration often uh there's kind of like a okay we're doing it we're gonna do it hey hey hey and you guys you guys have a uh you i've been in kitchens i've been a waiter you know and i've been in kitchens where everyone's like and then i've been in kitchens too where they're just like yes and now we will put the garlic in when the when the uh oil is hot enough and now we will do this and now you know like and so it is about pace so much right but our kitchen he goes crazy too i think i think there's just no one white tailor i think there's just like there we don't just it calls itself i was trying to make a really important connection between your art and cooking um but i i think covet i mean one of the things we're gonna do soon uh we hope people participate is um story recipe a storytelling circle that would happen online um and um we're gonna be looking at different groups of food like food to go like snacks or like food for recovery when you are sick or food for home sick when you're like i miss my mom or my house or my dear one um or celebration and then we're gonna ask people to share the recipe and a story that goes along to the recipe and maybe uh uh attention you know there are people who have issues with um um with food in a in a in a no good way we have very positive relationship with foods but there is issues of you know around hungriness but also around trauma and and and for some people that work food it's actually a no no no so we want to like open spaces to address and listen to those things and then see what those things sparks um in the other side of of the poetry and the magic that sounds beautiful and i'm gonna ask you one more question and then we're gonna go um uh and it's about intention um i was talking to gelsie bell who is also a heart artist with you guys and i said i said do you do you make the work for um the audience and i guess what i was really trying to ask was is your um do you have an intention to care for your audience in any way or do you just expect them to come and find find their way to what you're doing and i'm just i've kind of been asking that of all the heart part is because i think it's a interesting question to wonder about um outside the the realm of commercial theater um and it seems like you you are doing a balancing act of that where you you you have an intention to care and to try to make the world better and also an intention to um uh uh make what interests you but that's like quite what i want to say but can you address that at all in any way okay first of all yes we do the things that interest us there's no point of doing them otherwise yeah like yeah like it and sometimes what interests in chige is different than me but then why and then somehow you know there has to be a mutual interest otherwise it just don't work then then if i do that then i want to then i then i do for hire and you know just you know but i think all the hard work that comes to do hard work you gotta do it because you're interested in what you're doing yeah yeah yeah absolutely but i guess the real question is i think i know what you mean yeah i think it's about the like how much i um um you know i call this like candy i call i have the word candy in the vocabulary with with my dances like or with chige oh this feels like we're giving candy like we are like telling the audience like almost like uh chaperone them babysit them uh for something and and i am not so interested in that you know yeah i think we are we're creating a community when we make the work we are um it's struggling with each with even issues of of uh accessing what is what what we're trying to uncover uh dynamics power dynamics among each other when we work there is already all the things that we are working on and then and then this then there is this celebration this sort of we're celebrating and we are becoming some sort of it's not like emisores we are more of like an antenna and then we are just like um um we are the medium in which hopefully something is resonated and and hopefully you're catching the frequency too um but but we're not going to work for you to catch the frequency we already worked so hard to actually make the mechanism in which maybe the antenna is catching this thing so i don't know if i'm clear i was trying to clarify this yesterday at another talk because no i mean i feel you i'm like part of me just is like i i'm really envious of artists that just are like this is what i'm interested in if the audience comes along they come along and if they don't find you know like i and i've never i've never been that queen i'm always like i want the audience to i want to i want to invite them i'm always like trying to invite everybody to the party you know and and there's a um uh i think that there's a balance to be had in that and um i just recognize that you guys walk that balance really well that's i guess really all i'm trying to say but i was curious about how and why yeah it's like it's there are in a way it's like you're creating you're you're hosting something right you you're you're hosting a party you're hosting and there's something you want the you want the party with people i mean i don't want to make all these arrangements and then have nobody shows up eating the food nobody shows up so yes you you want to create the the the space for care and for welcoming but you also um you're you're also maybe like like like oh my god are you gonna move that slow for 40 minutes they're gonna be bored that kind of thing i'm like well then yeah but see if people think they're gonna be bored but then they watch it for 20 minutes and then they have a breakthrough they might be bored but i mean that's what happens sometimes for 20 minutes people are like oh my god and then you're like wait a minute i'm always get afraid of that first 20 minutes but i think you know the older i get the more i let it go you have to stick with it you have to stick with it you know this is what i mean there is a level of craftsmanship that we have worked for you know i mean this is a labor we we have created craft we are creating craft beyond magic and all these la la la it's a craft job and and um you gotta trust it you and then you also a job okay here i i i could i i could have done this all right i try another one yeah yeah but i mean if people want to you know eat their mcdonalds while in line to eat their mcdonalds there's plenty of things on netflix that they can watch like they come they come to you guys so that they don't have to eat before they eat so they can wait for 20 minutes there is something about the unknown that that we always talk about chic about these all these kind of different words and some looks very theatrical and some are really minimalistic and some are more visual arts and what is the core what what is it and then what we come to talk a lot was this these um um commitment to what we to create spaces in which the unknown appears and right and that unknown might create certain um uh it might create it might be jarring it might create senses of uncertainty and and i don't understand because you are dealing with creating intervening the hierarchy of the senses uh so that people are used to understand to want processing from the logic and and when that logic and that understanding is not being met there is uncertainty like right now like what the fuck is going on it's not meeting our logic at the beginning is that mask no mask air no air the logic wasn't meant so there is uncertainty and and in our work we really want to create the the protagonist has to be the possibility of this uncertainty and then we can deal how we deal with uncertainty and when we don't know something then we can imagine yeah yeah it's almost like giving the giving the catharsis in the beginning as opposed to you know i hate to put it in a recital in terms but it's almost like being like okay we're just gonna we're gonna make you uncomfortable the catharsis part in the beginning so that you can learn how to see differently right right as opposed to spending the whole time giving everybody what they know and then suddenly at the end at the 11 o'clock number you change it up on them you know like that's how most um uh kind of iris the jillion theater works is you're you're hanging out you're getting what you know you're getting what you're go it's kind of melodrama you you got it you got it you got it and then there's like a moment where everything happens and something changes and it can't ever be the same and that moment is usually the only experimental moment right and and i think it's a different kind of art that uh is saying no no we're gonna we're gonna put you in a new environment show you a different pace from what you're used to show you a different imagery um have you think about things and feel things in ways that are outside of your routine um and so that so that you can be embraced in some ways by the end not to say that that's what all the work is about but i but i it's interesting to me that the the reversal of that yeah yeah i could talk to you guys forever and when covid is all over i want to come over and have a meal and do it absolutely i will bring more than hummus i promise promise all right uh thank you very much uh do you want to say anything else this yeah thank you thank you so much taylor and here and everybody who is uh listening and and watching today have a good one bye