 Thank you for joining us at Mechanics Institute for this online program. The writer's lunch is a casual and virtual brownback lunch activity on the third Friday of each month. Look forward to craft discussion, informal presentations on all forms of writing, and excellent conversation. My name is Nico Chen, and I am the program manager here at Mechanics Institute. For those who are new to Mechanics Institute, welcome! Mechanics Institute was founded in 1854 and is one of San Francisco's most vital literary and cultural centers in the hearts of the city. Mechanics Institute features a full-service general interest library, an internationally renowned chess club, ongoing author and literary programs in the Cinema Lits film series. A recent article in the San Francisco Standard describes us as the coolest library in downtown San Francisco. We are also a remote work sanctuary. Come see this for yourself by joining us for a free tour which happens every Wednesday at noon. You are also welcome to join us on a special evening tour tonight, Friday, January 19th, starting at 5pm. Light refreshments will be available during the welcome reception and complimentary beverages will also be shared. We are also starting off this new year with a new free writerly event for our Mechanics Institute members. Mark your calendars for inaugural writers' meets on Saturday, February 10th, 2024. Bring two pages of your latest masterpiece or work in progress to share with fellow wordsmiths. Be ready to give and receive constructive feedback and forge connections with other writers. Embark on a writing journey for this coming lunar new year. Together, we create a haven for wordsmiths, storytellers, and aspiring authors. Please visit our website at www.mi-library.org to learn more about our upcoming programs. Today's theme for our Writers' Lunch is How to Craft a Bio. This discussion will include a Q&A with the audience. Please add your questions to the chats and I will read them aloud during the latter half of today's Writers' Lunch. Please also mark your calendars for the Writers' Lunch on Friday, February 16th for the topic Writing About Love and Loss in Relationships with Lauren Alwyn, Leslie Kirk Campbell, and Nona Casper. This event will be moderated by the one and only Cheryl J. Bazay Boute. And I am also adding the information about all of these wonderful upcoming events to the chat box with the links. You're welcome to also just find those links and register now. I will now go over our speaker bios. Award-winning author and push cart prize nominee Cheryl J. Bazay Boute is an Oakland multidisciplinary writer whose autobiographical and fictional short story collections, along with her lyrical and stunning poetry, artfully succeed in getting across deeper meanings about the politics of race and economics without breaking out of the narrative. An inaugural Oakland poet laureate runner-up, she is also a popular teacher, literary reader, presenter, storyteller, curator, and MC host for literary and poetry events. Let's do a quick wave to the wonderful Cheryl Bazay Boute. Hello! Joey Garcia is an editor and author platform coach. She helps writers get known while they're writing their book. So when it's published, there's an audience waiting to read it. Joey's clients have been interviewed by and have bylines in The Wall Street Journal, Smithsonian Magazine, Miss Magazine, CNN, The Tamron Hall Show, among others. Joey is the indie author of When Your Heart Breaks Its Opening to Love and has been featured in HuffPost, USA Today, Deutsche Well, KVIE Public Television, Global Woman TV Sweden, Australia's Ticker News, and Slate's Dear Prudence Podcast. In 2017, Joey established the first ever literary fellowship in Belize, her birthplace. With literary agents, she leads an annual retreat in Belize for writers from all over the world. Let's give a warm welcome to Joey. Thank you. Last but not least, we have Janie Grossenbacher, Master of Education, Novelist, Poets, Certified Editor, Educator, and Publisher, founded Elk Grove Writers and Artists in 2012, and J.G.K.S. Press in 2017. She brings 36 years of experience teaching English language arts to adolescents and adults. Her debut American Madam series novel, Madam of My Heart, was a silver medalist for historical fiction in the 2018 Independent Publisher Awards and received the Kirkus Star. Madam and Silk was runner-up for historical fiction in the 2020 National Indie Excellence Awards. Her novel, Madam and Lace, was published in December 2021, and Kirkus Reviews calls it, a gripping trip through Napoleonic France. Details about the revolutionary plots are revealed in tiny parcels, creating a strong sense of suspense that will keep readers turning pages. Clint says her first poetry collection was released in September 2022. Her poetry blends themes of childhood wonderment, the blessings of ordinary things, and the pain and joy of life experience. Her next historical novel, Filigree and Flame, the first in a new series called Artistic Women, will launch in February 2024. And let's give a warm welcome to the wonderful Ginny Grossenbacher. And Cheryl, please take it away. Thank you, Nico. And as always, thank you to the Mechanics Institute. I see so many familiar faces on the screen. Thank you all for being here. And thank you, Joey and Ginny. I'm going to launch right into my first question. And I'll pose it to you first, Ginny. In general, what do you see as the top three components of a memorable bio? Well, first of all, it has to fit your personality. And the type of writing you do. My example as a historical fiction and poetry author is that historical fiction may be one of the closer genre categories to literary fiction. So I have to kind of, I have to skirt the edge between formality and informality in my writing about myself. So, but I would say that if somebody has, for example, light romance or comedic sci-fi, their author bio should reflect a little bit more about, you know, who they are as a person. And if they are, if they are rather quirky and they know themselves to be that, then that should come across in their author bio. Thank you. And how about you, Joey? I think the first question for me is, what am I going to use the bio for? That will determine the components. I think we are often taught that there's one bio, you know, your author's bio, your writer's bio, but I think most writers actually need five or six different bios, depending on what it's for, and what you are working on calling into your life. So if you're looking for an agent, you're writing a different kind of bio than if you're trying to get media attention for a book that's already in existence. So I want to just that that's the pre question. What am I going to use this bio for? And then from there, determining those components. So one way to think of it is, if you're, for example, putting a bio together, maybe for your website or for the back of a book. So go with a bit about the book, a bit about you, and always a hook. There should always be a hook. The thing that's going to interest the reader, the agent, you know, the writer. So, thinking in that way, I think the other thing is, when you write your bio and you're considering what it's going to be used for, don't make it a kitchen sink bio. It's just because you're quite accomplished. Maybe you haven't an MBA. It may not belong in that bio, which may be about just your writing life. And similarly, if you're writing a bio that is intended for, say the media, you don't put all your literary accomplishments in it. It just makes you seem like you don't understand how the media works. So it's really more complicated and more, what should I say, exciting to think about what should really fit in there. So what you're really saying Joey is that you really can't have that one bio that suits everything that you almost have to look at what you're doing with it, and then create it at that point. There should be some standard elements. I would think that should always be there and what what would you say those standard elements might be. Well, your name. And again, you've got to think about what you're using it for so if I'm using it to let people know that I'm an editor that's a different kind of bio. What are the standard elements, your name and anything you've done related to the book that you are currently promoting. That's what I would include in there. And I would really think two, three, four times about whether your advanced degrees belong in your bio, most of the time they don't. Okay. How about you? Well, I really agree about the audience. I'm aware of the audience that you are presenting the bio to example mechanics Institute for me as writing a bio for this represents a quite a literary influence in in California and the West. And so my bio does highlight my accomplishments and my degree. Yeah, if I were going to be presenting a workshop about, oh, say writing setting. I may not do that. You know, I may have a much briefer bio, a much chatty or bio depending on the audience that I'm addressing. So I do agree with Joey very much. It's the audience. It's who, who are those people going to be that you're, you're giving your, your soul to at that moment. Yeah, so with that in mind, I would say, you know, you, you may not want a downloadable bio on your website. You may want a basic bio, but you want to craft a bio for each presentation that you're giving. Like you Cheryl, I'm a push cart nominee, but it's not in my bio because it really wasn't related to what I'm doing today. So thinking about that thinking about your awards which ones fit like Jenny's awards that are listed related to her novels are fit for her presentation today, that kind of thing. Right. And it also fits that you can include things that you feel others might be interested in, depending on the audience that you're writing to. So, in my case as the moderator of an event. I think that the push cart gives a little bit of credibility as to awards for novels and other things. It's really, it's really a balancing act in terms of, like you say, both of your saying of what you're actually the audience you're actually talking to. Let's delve a little bit more into content though. There are people who write in different genres. So content and style I guess I'm really going for here. Is it okay to write in the genre that you are trying to sell. So for example, if if I'm writing a science fiction piece. Should I write a bio in a kind of scientific swirly whirly kind of way. Is that helpful or is that detrimental. It depends on your audience if you're sending it to a sci fi magazine that you know uses bios like that, then yes, but again if you're trying to get an agent then maybe you're going to seem a little quirky and difficult to work with, unless you know that you're trying to fix those kinds of bios so you know it really is a look back at this is about marketing this is about how you're presenting yourself in the world to a particular audience at a particular time to promote a particular thing. And getting really clear on that helps to understand what the content of the bio should be. You mentioned awards and I hope you're going to come back to that because I really want to talk about that as well. And Jenny what do you think about the content question. I just really believe that you're presenting your best self to that audience. You know, if you are. The background includes being an editor for random house, and you are in, you know, marketing yourself to a writer's conference that's very important and should be mentioned. But perhaps if you're already an author, and maybe you could just say I'm an established author or established indie author, and you don't necessarily have to write down all of your titles. And once again I think it's a matter of choosing what you think your audience is going to care about at that moment. And I'm sorry to keep saying audience but that you have to. Yeah, up there. Yeah. So Joey what did you want to say about awards you look like you just really want to get this out. I know I was listening to Jenny. I agree with her 100%. So, I think it's important once again, whether you're whether you're applying to and using awards as a marketing device, which is one thing. And versus the kinds of awards that are really recognitions of your writing, and of your, your literary achievements. So keeping in mind the difference between those two and who you're going to tell about those awards. So there are awards where maybe there's 100 categories and pretty much everybody gets a prize. Right. And then you can afterwards you can buy the seals and this and that and the other thing. And that is generally a company that is making money off of promoting a book. There's nothing wrong with that. It's great for marketing a book, especially for indie authors. And then there are coveted literary awards. You mentioned, you know, one that we both share that's that's we've been nominees right so that's a literary award that that I can't really just apply to and expect to get generally someone has to nominate me for that correct. So that's very different. And that that gives it a cachet that an award where, again, you know, I can apply and everybody who applies pretty much gets gets a congratulations and a letter and stickers and buy more stickers. There's a whole different level of awards. So if I'm, if I am pitching an agent, if I'm pitching an opportunity that is rather high level, I may not put those kinds of awards, the ones I've basically purchased on my bio, because I can post them on Facebook and get a lot of people excited about my book, who don't really know how the business works. That's great. It's used as a marketing device and that's the intention. But if I'm sending that to an agent, they may think, you may not really understand how this business works because that's an award anyone can purchase and win. Does that make sense makes perfect sense. Let me let Jenny weigh in on this and then I want to come back because I really am. I'm a little concerned about how do writers know the difference. I mean, how do they find out. Jenny, would you do could you weigh in. I agree with, with Joey. The there is a, a website called ally a li that will talk to you about legitimate indie awards to apply to and ones that have the most credibility and ones that are not worth your time because they don't really count for anything. And so I always consult with ally because there is a writer beware aspect of applying for awards. Some of these companies are fly by night. And you're right, they do they make money off of you by guaranteeing that your, your, your book is going to appear on a marquee in Times Square and then when you read the fine print you're going to find that it's only on for one minute flash, and you've paid $500. I love you want to walk away saying well my book was, you know, flashed in Times Square well maybe, maybe that might be fine. But nobody saw it. So. So I agree caution is the word. Okay, so let's get back quickly add to that, because ally. I'm so glad you mentioned that Jenny and the other one is the science fiction association is that or they have writers beware. And that's another great one to check with is all I want to say. Okay, so getting back to the core of this discussion. How does a writer know when they're writing a bio that they're writing the right kind of bio for the right reasons and the right venue. What kind of help is out there for writers to know how to do that. Jenny. You can go to the San Francisco writers conference. And you can meet and you can meet with editors with Joey Garcia who's a platform coach and editor and you can meet with me but there. I believe last year there might have been 80 editors that rotated throughout the editorial room and there are 100 notable authors on the agenda, presenting information. But apart from that, I think writers digest if you go through writers digest frequently, they will generally have information about how to set up your online presence, your marketing presence. And so I would just try to go through the index of articles that they have. And, and so forth because those are credible sources there are other conferences also that you can attend all over the place that have generally you're looking for something that has a marketing strand. I actually teach a class on just writers bios. And I've taught it around at different conferences and I'm excited to say I'll be teaching it at more this year because I think part of it is that I myself didn't know I've learned by making mistakes and and seeing things and making changes and talking to professionals. And I think that's a big part of it. What I'm saying is getting there's online education that Jenny was just mentioning and she's also mentioning which I agree is talking to people and learning. Be in a be in a place of reception and learning and asking questions, and not so much. Well, look at me and what I've done and like as I've spent a lot of time just being a student and I still feel like I'm forever a student learning about how to do this, but it's hard for us to step back from ourselves and see what we're actually presenting to the world. So I think it's essential that we have someone that's a trusted friend who will give us honest feedback and that we are open to receive it, because that's the other thing, and that sometimes I joke. Do you remember Bridezilla, like, you know, the wedding, like, yeah, so we can be office zillas, you know, the kind of like, we're not really getting accepting feedback even when we ask for it and people are offering it to just soften and let ourselves be in a space of receptivity and listening. We can really grow in that way that the bio becomes an opportunity or brings in opportunities and doesn't create obstacles. Well, how about the problem Joey, the opposite problem of health. I have trouble writing about myself. I just don't know what to say. I have this wonderful poem I have this wonderful story, but I just can't sit down and write this bio. How do you help people like that. So we focus on first off, what is one interesting thing about them. And what and what is the one one thing that they're seeking right now. So I'm seeking representation for a novel right so Joey Garcia lives with a small dog and a big cat I know that kind of, that's not true. But I'm just saying one thing about me. And, and then, you know, one thing I'm seeking. Right. So if you don't want to put in your bio yet you can still find material, but keep it related as much as possible. The fact that you live in, I don't know, Sacramento, and you're married with 12 children is not necessarily right for your bio, unless it's part of the book that you're writing right or the story you want to get into the world. So, so really pull back from the kitchen sink. I said that before but pull back and really focus on what belongs. I would also add, because I always approach things, half intellectually and half emotionally that I would say get over the fear. You kind of have to step over yourself and put your, your feet on the mat and just say okay I'm going to put this out there. And it may not be perfect, because perfect doesn't exist. Right. And I'm going to, I'll take a chance. And, honestly, I learn every day. You know, from Joey from Cheryl from all the people that I know in the business, and also from several of you who attend my classes. You know, it's just that someone will point out something and I will change it. One aspect of BIOS, along with what Joey mentioned, is that you want to update it all the time. You want to keep it fresh. And if you recently got another accolade or another award, then you're going to add it on there, but then everything you add on, other things have to go. So be willing to, to be kind of hard about it because you're changing. And every year you're going to be producing different things or doing different activities, getting involved in different clubs and organizations. And if you want to highlight that, then something else is going to have to go because because people get bored reading long bios. That is so, so, so good. And I'd love to just tag on to that and, and say that most of us who have lived a while, as I have on the planet have done many, many interesting things. And you have to edit those out of your bio as well. Think about most agents, they have for publishers are, you know, even people who might buy your book. A lot of them maybe let's say in their 40s and if you did something very interesting a long time ago, before they were born. They won't might be less interested. Right. It's less interesting and less valid right now so it's kind of a show me what you've done now business. And the fact that maybe you, well, let's see maybe you worked at Simon Schuster 40 years ago may not be relevant to put in your bio anymore. In fact, it's not but I'm, you know, may not be. So, so think about what's timely as well focus on the now. Okay, so you say focus on the now but I have a question about how do. New writers, new writers focus on the now if they've just written their first story and they're trying to pitch it. Is it okay for them to talk about what their plans are what they would like to do as a writer what, how can they add content to their bio to make it meaningful and interesting if they're just starting out. I think writers have to be very careful about being aspirational. Yes, bios because it becomes confusing and can make a person look like they're not a truth teller, which is gets really messy. I saw bio and a gentleman said that he in the bio he said he was going to turn his memoir which hadn't been written yet into a Netflix film. Does he have the power to do that. So it's aspirational but also makes him look unprofessional and like he doesn't understand how the business works. So, but, but to his mind he's being aspirational so be very careful about what you include. If I'm a new writer concentrate on something interesting. I live at the edge of the forest with, you know, blah, blah, blah, just write one and Jenny was referring to this earlier right one interesting thing about yourself. Your bio has to be any more than one or two sentences and in fact, sometimes it's better if it isn't and don't necessarily look to a famous writer to copy their bio style because they got famous in the before times before 4 million books a year were being published which is where we are right now 4 million books are being published every year. So think about what's interesting about you and just, if you haven't, you don't have publications to list yet or anything else just keep it one or two sentences keep it tight. Today. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. You know, it is difficult. I mean I've been there. And at the very beginning, what are you going to say about yourself. And so you have to start with what what it is you've established what what kinds of groups you're involved with. And also, it doesn't hurt I remember in a very early bio I had been a board member of the California writers club like I wrote that down, because it was a way to at least connect with people in the industry and they all know the California writers club so it was, therefore, gave me a little credibility that I'm kind of serious. Great. So, Nico, do we have audience questions. We actually, they have many, many audience questions but I think Paul is asking about sort of adding ones positionality to ones bio so what about including age, origins, location, family, even gender. What do you think about that, Jimmy. Well, if it's if it's important to the work you're doing. And it's central to the themes or substance of what you are writing a sentence or two regarding that might be interesting worthwhile. If it is not, then, you know, why do it, I think you have to ask yourself those things. Depending. And also, if you are issuing a bio that has that information and you're going to be giving, for example, poetry reading or you're at an open mic event where there's a lot of other people in in your same situation that might be interesting to put in. I'm very careful though, about too much information, personal information because right now goes out to the world. And do you want everybody to know how old you are. I mean, everybody. Joey, what do you think I'm 63. No, just kidding. I don't, I don't know that I would ever put in put age in a bio in fact I would say no unless you are very very young and publishing your first book, your first novel yours 10 your 11 your 12. Then yes, but otherwise I would not if it's very important to you to put an age in because you're talking about I don't know dating after 60. I might say something like Joey Garcia as a boomer blah blah blah blah. I would put the generation and instead age, let's see, I put where I'm from believes because I'm very active there and it's significant to my myself my culture born there and been working there for 20 something years. So for me that's central. Jenny's right again you know that that just be it's curated your bio is curated it's not. It's it's not a resume right it's a curated list of what your accomplishments related to your book or your, your speech or the workshop you're going to give at a writer's conference or the interview the media interview you're trying to get. So I think I would ask you to think broadly. I can't remember everything was age look. I'm sorry. Where your gender gender. So my name is Joey it causes lots of confusion, and I don't include my gender. And I, you know, I mean sometimes it comes it says she but I don't, I don't think it's essential. I love the people get confused about it. Yeah, it's on them and I've been, you know, I've had this name forever. So, yeah, that doesn't matter. Exactly. Any more questions Nichols. I know we got a few. Sure, we do have quite a few form based questions. And so there are, there were two questions about whether or not we should be using the first person or third person in the bio, and also another person was asking about word count like do we write for like is there any different condition requirements as to a standard word count. I'd like to take the day a person that you should be writing in and then hand that second part over to Joey if I may. Sounds like a plan. I really think third person is is a good fit for most bio requests that I've ever written to. And I just think that it's professional. And, you know, if you are quirky even that's going to come out in the examples that you place of the types of information you want to give them, you know you live on the edge of the woods. You had a spiritual experience when you were 25 and that's central to the work you're doing, you know. I like third person very much. Joey, the second part. What was it again third person or remind me what word word now. Oh, okay yeah that's great so word count varies. I always tell my writers the people who work with me to have a 50 word bio as 75 word bio and 100 word bio, and really write down the word keep cutting. You know, exercise in editing and learning what's important. So, to both you what's the difference between a bio and a tagline I keep hearing this tagline stuff all the time. What does that really mean. I know people have. Marketing, tagline marketing that's sort of you hear that brands use that. That's a commercial part. It's here in TV commercials for example or radio commercials. Most writers don't need a tagline. Right. Yeah, but a few do, but most don't that's kind of fun. That's someone who lost their job and brand management saying there's a lot of authors I bet I could work with authors and then telling authors they need a tagline. I was going to be in an event and I was asked for a tagline and it was very confusing to me I didn't know. What am I supposed to do a tagline for better living through chemistry you know generally electric what is that right. Any more questions from the audience. Of course. So we have a question from Bella and she's talking about like the many changes that might happen in one's life and she wrote, I really like the point that we are always changing. What about a scenario when you where you are a completely different person than who you were, and you don't want to share major parts of your life. For instance, for example, you worked heavily in politics and profile, high profile politicians, but now are completely apolitical and do not want to offend anyone. And are you going to be accused of withholding info one day if you don't reference a huge part of your life in your bio. Jenny, what do you think. Well I'm going to go back to my audience again. It's who you are addressing it to and what is what is the purpose for your bio. If the purpose for your bio is you're doing a presentation on your book or you're doing a launch of your book then you're, there's no reason to focus on your past. You know, history, if having been a presidential aid was important to the writing of your work, then that should be in there. So, I mean, you know, just because you even become a public figure does not necessarily mean you have to reveal everything. I mean, there are a lot of people out there who have secrets. Well, why not join them. I love that, Joey. Well, I've spent 40 years in professional media, radio, television, magazines, newspapers, I wrote a relationship advice column I've been on air a television I've been a TV news producer. So I'm going to answer this from a news perspective. Because I think that's important, and we don't really consider it very often when we're writing our bios and I think we should so if you were well known working for a politician or in politics in some way, maybe just local politics, city council or something. There was some controversy and that's why you moved away from it or discomfort in some way and that's why you moved away from it. And you don't include it in your bio. You may make yourself suspect in the sense that if you are looking for press attention, and you've omitted it, then it looks like a lie by omission, even though it's not, even though you're just moving away. I would, if you were my client, I would advise you then to put a line in. She's glad to have left politics far behind or she's glad to have left politics in the 20th century something clever and funny and just kind of a brush off. But I wouldn't avoid it all together, because all you're doing then is creating obstacles, you're, you're making people go, hey, in the newsroom. She didn't look at this. She didn't include it. What do you think is going on? Yeah, I'm not going to, you know, right? So that that's an obstacle, if that makes sense. Yeah. I would also say that when I first started, because it has to do with career paths and career changes as well, because when I came out of the classroom, I did have a line in my bio that that address that. And I was, you know, this was a second career path or whatever, just so that people who had known me as a teacher would be able to make that transition with me. Right. I think it's going to be helpful. I'm sorry. I was just going to say that I like you. I, well, I've had a lot of different careers and sometimes I've done them all at the same time I taught high school and then at the night in the evening I was a TV news producer. So, I think there's times when you can do that and times when you shouldn't and I, I think it goes back to what you've kept, you know, you said repeatedly, audience, audience, audience, who is this bio going to be seen by. Yeah. Nico. Any other questions. Yes, we do have one from Lynn. What are some tips for crafting a bio for the back of a book. The back letter. Jenny should be very short, very concise. I would avoid all of that. Your, your master's degrees and all that unless you think that this is just too important, but I would really avoid that and just talk about the writing of that particular book. Very concise. I think one of the important things to consider is what media market you live in, because that can make a huge difference in the opportunities that your book brings your doesn't. So, the top like the Bay Area is, I think it's five or six now. They were overtaken by another media market, but if you don't know to meet a market is just Google it. There's a Wikipedia page and we don't have a lot of time to get into it right now, but it will give you a chance to decide how you include or don't include where you live. So, for example, if you live in Sonoma, you may want to say Northern California or even better near San Francisco. So those are one of the things to consider for the back of your book. Other than that, yes, keep it very simple. If you're a member of organizations that are literary organizations, please don't include those things on the back of your book. It just makes it. It just makes it long and weird. So that that's not the right place for that. So when did when is it appropriate or is there a is it just the author's decision to put in their back matter of bio or a synopsis of the book. So if you if you're putting a something in the on the back of your book, the book cover the back cover. Should it be a bio or should it be a summary of what the books about. So, the, the, the on the back cover of book is the first issue statement the hook right the hook, right, right, a summary of the book a synopsis you can call it then, and then a two sentence or three sentence bio about the author, both are included. Both are. I would agree. You always want to have that on the back. Another bio in the interior pages at the end of course yes it's traditionally done that way. But when someone gets you know we do judge a book by the by its cover so we do look and we look at read a little scan or something about the author so both are important. Right. Any other questions from the audience they go. Yeah, so I think there's a few participants who are wondering about the value of including, including certain things. One participant asked, if you have editorial and publishing experience that's not literary for example corporates. Is that worth including at all, and also just social media links is that also worth including. Okay, what do you think. Well social media can come and go. You know, Twitter became X. I wouldn't include my social media links on the back cover of a book. That's me, maybe a workbook that I'm going to update a lot but I wouldn't include a book. So, if you have experience unrelated to let's say you're writing a novel, and you're wondering should I have all this corporate writing experience should it be part of my novel know unless your novel is about corporate intrigue, then possibly some of it, a very brief mention is useful. Yeah, I think it goes back to. If you were, you know, corporate writer editor. You know, is this a career transition you have to ask yourself that because if it's a career transition it has to be in there, then it might be a phrase. You know, but it's, but it definitely does not. When people look at the back of the book they are simply, they're looking to see, I think if an author as published before if they have other books, perhaps, where they're they originate. So today, because of the rise of self publishing, and actually it's probably an almost in its zenith right now, people come from all walks of life, but what people want to know is, you know, what, you know what why are you writing it. What is the purpose in writing it and what is the book about, according to you, the author. Any more, Nico. Sure, and we have a question about, is there a benefit or plus to stress in our bio a US regional angle to stand out. For example, there's a trend in contemporary literature. For example, a JD advanced book or an Appalachian region regional book. That's the question. I'm not sure I just quite understand that question is Jenny. Yeah, that that actually belongs in book categories, rather than on the back of your book. And I think it could be placed if you're writing that a bio you could say American Appalachian writer. And then go on Forbes, you know, and then and then go on to discuss that. And unless it's central to the themes or the setting of the book, then it belongs in the synopsis. But if it has really basically nothing else to do with it then I would leave it out depends on what the purpose is. Yeah, if you're writing say Southern Gothic novels and you want to show that you have a personal experience of Southern life then it might be helpful in that regard but you have to also be careful that you plan to stay in that lane and you're not just pigeonholing yourself right. So many times in Hollywood actors will complain that they've gotten, you know, this one plum roll and get any other role. So I would I would just keep that in mind. Don't don't think because you've written one book, then you are now an Appalachian writer, right. You've got a body of work, and that you're you're actually being honest about who you are. Let me pose this question. What are the some of the missteps that you've encountered in in by in reading bios. And what are some of the funnier things you've seen. Jenny. Well I think too much information is basically the one that a well you know and I always relate to everything I've done myself because I've made every mistake in the book. I've made mistakes all the time. So, you know, with humility what I will say is though people tend to put in too much. They put in too much that is irrelevant to what they're doing. If you had an inspiration when you were five to write a book, you know, and it really, and it has no central value at all to to, I mean, you know, I can say, you know, a lot of people ask. Every author here they say, well what inspired you to write why did you become a writer why did you pick up that pen. And of course, most of us will say well in childhood I was quite a reader. You know, and that we stumble for those those ancient days when you know we got inspired, but I don't really think those kinds of things are necessary in your bio. Joey, I agree with you there. I think one of the most boring things you can put in a bio is I've always wanted to write a book or you know as always wanted to write a book. Yeah, so I've seen a lot of missteps because I teach this workshop right so right. So I think I think one of the things is these are all we've discussed these but including these because you're proud of them including career information. I was general Matt me Joey I was general manager of the public of public relations for the US and Canada for a fortune 500 company it's not in my bio. Right. It was so long ago. Right. So, so really it there you curate those bios typos and bios being to general because you want to look important. So, I think it's better to have a bio that is scant that is short than to have a bio that is just vague and goes on and on. And one thing I would invite everyone to consider is how your bio sounds. So, can it be used to introduce you, for example, on a television or radio show. One thing to consider I think and another misstep is how professional and you are in regards to your bio. So let's say you haven't taken the advice that Jenny and I are offering today and you, you've got a page long bio or three quarters of a page bio. I would just interview authors on the radio. I would ask for a bio, I would, I would say send me two or three sentences I would get those, you know, three quarters of a page and that that writer author would say even famous authors would say, just edit it and use whatever you want. It's not my job to edit your bio. I'm the interviewer. So those kinds of things are huge missteps that make, you know, that might make you no longer an opportunity, you know, no longer an opportunity. So, yeah. Thank you. I would agree. I think that when you are presenting any aspect of yourself a biography or any element of that I would really make sure that has been professionally looked at even because if it's your first time out because you're going to learn how to do it on your own anyway but having a coach or even if that's not feasible for you then at a minimum take it to a critique group and have them check it out because there is a collective wisdom out there about this. Yeah. An honest critique group. An honest critique because so many times in critique groups I think people don't want they want to hear nice things about their own work so they say nice things about other work, other people's work you want to make sure just tell people just be honest with me. Yeah. Yeah, right. Oh, I think I saw another question pop up we got time from another. Sure. So Barbara asked what differences are there between bio related between bios that are related to promoting a book versus miles that are for a journalist or writer promoting themselves. My oh, hmm. Jenny, what's a mile. Well, if you're self promoting and in the, at least the literary establishment. I mean that has to do with your book or your work in progress or your work in the literary community. That would be my take on it. Because you have to figure, you're showing up at a table where everybody there is either a reader or writer. And so, or a publisher or editor, but honestly, you want to present yourself in that light and that's, that's why I wouldn't just put in a mile and have that suffice. So if I was submitting a bio that I wanted to use to promote my journalism career, and I worked, I've worked as a journalist as I mentioned so it would just focus on the places where I worked the names of those places right as well as any journalism awards that I've received. So my focus is on journalism, and then there might be one last line that says she also writes fiction. That's what I would do. I would not then go ahead and list the fiction and so on, because in the realm of journalism, it's going to look like I'm not serious about journalism. So you want to make sure that you're in the right lane. Right. The main is important. Yeah. Is there something you wanted to add? No, I just opened my mouth and then closed it. Nico, any more audience questions. Of course. So, one participant asked if there are any exemplars that they can look towards for a first time indie authors bio for their website. Any examples Joey. I would say come to my workshops. I don't know that I can point you to a particular person at this time. No. Yeah. Yeah, I would just like to plug Joey's workshops because I have sat in audiences and known Joey for many years. And what I would say is that she's thorough. She's going to give you all of these wonderful tips and often includes practices that you can then field test. And you really, I mean, I think you have a leg up if you if you go to a workshop like that. There are other websites that you can visit that may have tips and techniques. I'm thinking of Jane Friedman's blogs. It's called Trick Speed. And I believe if you went on her website, Jane Friedman, you probably would be getting some tips and techniques along those lines. Yeah, good point. I find though most of what I've seen myself online related to writing a writer's bio for an author's bio doesn't keep the media perspective in mind. So a lot of good books that would and great authors and writers that would otherwise be interviewed don't get interviewed because they're listing, you know, again, right, maybe writers conferences that they've spoken at or things like that that have nothing to do with the media. And the media is going like what is she talking about. Kenyan review what's that right. So it's, you know, right. The lane issue. So it actually acts as an obstacle. So, let me ask you both. Do you have anything you'd like to add that you weren't able to share so far today. And where can people find you so they can get some help. Jenny. I'll be at the San Francisco Writers Conference along with Joey, and in the editor's room and I'll also be on different panels. And I'm at www.jenniegrosenbacher.com. If you need to ask me for a consultation, I'd be happy to help you. One last parting word I would have not to steal from Joey's minute is that make sure that you spell check that you edit it so that you're putting out your very best self that each sentence in your bio is is grammatically correct. Great. Great advice. So important. Thank you, Jenny. Joey Garcia.com is my website. You can find me. Yes, at the San Francisco Writers Conference. I'll be doing a couple of sessions on building platform. And I was mentored in platform building techniques by three literary agents. So I really feel like I can offer you some helpful information. And you're welcome to join my newsletter, which I would love. And you can email me joey at joeygarcia.com to join the newsletter, you can join it from my website, or you can email a question that maybe you didn't get answered here today and be happy to help. Thank you both so much. This has been wonderful. I've learned so much now that I know I have to go back and rewrite all my bios. But now I know how to do it. Thank you so much. Hello, and Mechanics Institute. Thank you audience for being here. It's been a pleasure. I just wanted to end by saying, if you are interested in getting some feedback on your bio, please do join us for upcoming writers meets where you will be bringing two pages to get feedback and also give feedback right so that is a perfect opportunity to meet other writers in person and to get feedback in real time. And also please do remember to mark your calendars for our next writers lunch on Friday, February 16 for the topic writing about love and loss in relationships with Lauren Leslie Kirk Campbell and Nona Casper's. Before we go I just want to do another round of applause for our wonderful panelists today and our wonderful moderator Cheryl, we hope to see you at the same time on our third Friday in February. Take care and we will see you again soon. Thank you. Thank you.