 Welcome, everybody. I'm Nate Angel from Hypothesis, as you can see, because all our details are spread in front of the screen in every place you look, so I don't even know why we introduce ourselves anymore, really. But in case maybe there are some folks out there with visual impairments, and I'm really honored to have with me here, not for the first time actually, Lysandra Cook. I think I got that right tonight on the pronunciation kid who's been a long time educator annotator and has really shared her work and her thinking with us before. And I wanted to start things off by helping people understand what we were imagining in these featured educator sessions. So as that, I mean, it may not seem like the end of the day to you, but it does to me, even though it's only noon here in Portland, Oregon, where I am, but it's been a long day already. And so the reason that we wanted to have these featured educator sessions was to invite folks like Lysandra to come and just have an informal chance to have a conversation with some of the other people who were attending about whatever, right? Whatever's on your mind in terms of, especially when it comes to questions about pedagogy maybe, or, you know, practice, teaching practice, things like that. You know, we have here a bunch of people both in the audience and here on stage, although myself not included, of course, who have a lot of experience and can speak to things. So as I started out, I'll just put Lysandra on the spot just a little bit and ask her to give like just a couple minutes' feel, a little introduction to who she is and what she does as an educator, and then how annotation has played into that. Just super informally just so that people can get a kind of picture of what you've been doing. Sure. Hopefully that sound is working. I am a special education professor at the University of Virginia, and I primarily train pre-service teachers, new teachers, but I also work within service teachers. And I teach both online asynchronous and hybrid, and then of course with the pandemic I taught all online. But I was really thankful to have tools like Hypothesis during that shift because I used it in more innovative ways for my online synchronous courses as well. So I think I utilize it as a tool just like any other tool I would in my pedagogy. I don't lead with it and say, well, I need to use Hypothesis, so I'm going to force fit this thing. I use it for, you know, kind of backwards design, the idea, or the purpose, the outcome objective, and then use it as a tool that fits it. Both, especially in the online courses, I think is really helpful for helping students build that sense of community, collaborate and discuss it. And in that online asynchronous format, I primarily use it to take the place of some discussion threads so that students aren't. And I think in the previous, if you were just in that really interesting panel, and I can't remember if it was Cherise or Janay that was talking about using it, not having to create the content, but kind of creating through engagement with the content that we've already done. So I often will put up a piece, maybe in module three or four, week three or four, that connects a lot of the ideas we've already been talking about. And then it's sort of like that check for understanding. Can you make these connections? Where are you seeing the connections so that they can engage with it without having to regurgitate everything to then say, well, I only wanted to say, here's this connection. They don't have to write a whole paragraph or something. So it's nice. And it also, I found the students love seeing other people's thinking and my own. They also engage in the annotation. So I think it makes my thinking as an instructor, really evident to them, as well as it's really easy for them to see the parts that really spark interest with their peers or the things that maybe they didn't notice that somebody else comes in. So I think I use it in an online course in lieu of discussion threads, not every week, but throughout the semester. And I've started using it also in my, what would typically be face to face courses that have been asynchronous this last year for students to do a little pre-work and engage, especially if we're doing something like a jigsaw, two of them maybe have engaged with one reading, and they've been able to kind of asynchronously collaborate on that material before we come to our synchronous session. So it's sort of a way for them to engage with each other before, without having to have another Zoom meeting. Now, we've been trying to figure out ways to have collaboration that's not just one more time you get on Zoom and do this thing. So it's been a really flexible tool. And then the third way I've been using it just recently is providing kind of a curriculum map, kind of like a guided notes of the course. And then they across the semester keep coming back and adding things that are like, oh and this so that they have kind of see that they can fill in all the pieces together so it's more like a guided notes but they bring in other readings and quotes or videos that I've talked that we've shared and kind of fill in the map so that they have a solid understanding of where we've been in that semester so it's pretty wide variety. I do think that there was a learning curve on my part, both in explicitly teaching the students how to use the tool. We use the integration with Canvas and Hypothesis has some great resources on their website that you can use to guide the students so you don't have to recreate all of the materials to support the students use of it. And then also picking. I found if I pick tools or articles that are too long and complex. It takes longer and so it's finding the right kind of piece that sort of brings pieces together if you're doing what I usually do it is like one of the thinking routines connect extend and challenge. So they already know that thinking routine and they're doing it with a certain piece and then I have to make sure that piece is appropriate for that. The students have predominantly really enjoyed using it. I've had students across multiple semesters that have used it in different courses they mentioned in the course evaluations they mentioned in my check ins with them that they really appreciate connecting with the students and not doing just one more discussion thread. Yeah, you know, it's you've said so much there. You know, it wasn't a ramblin all but it's like there were so many things and all that that I was trying to hold on to and I really one little thing caught my attention a lot and that was something you were saying earlier on about how you know an annotation can enable both you as a as a teacher but also the other students to model the active reading without it being so high stakes right so you can just have that small connecting thought like you mentioned and that can be like a real contribution to scholarly discourse at least in the context of the class without without always without everything always having to have all the weight of you know an essay or an assignment or a paper or something, because I feel like so much of the intellectual joy of scholarship that people who go into it actually, you know, that's why we're there right. We actually like to read and think and make connections right. And it's, it's like something that not everybody on, you know, knows how to do it yet, or has had the opportunity to do it maybe. And, you know, it's just I just love the way that like an more informal approach to reading can be modeled in this way that can then also leave a trail in the annotation, annotation record. It is and there is there is a reading kind of a reciprocal reading intervention, and I teach a reading methods course. And so having the students work together to do partner reading and summarize paragraphs and then go back and forth kind of explicitly teaches them how to do the thing I want them to do with their kids. But they've said, Wow, like my reading comprehension has gotten better because I've done it myself, I have to summarize it and then I've also seen how my partner approaches it and so it's been a it's been a useful tool to for them as well but I see that question about canvas and when I first tried to use I don't know I think I saw on Twitter hypothesis as a tool. And I was the first adopter UVA and it was so difficult because I because our canvas support people didn't know how to do it and so I signed up. But you know what Jeremy Dean emailed me like constantly so help me that first year that the support was amazing and I was really surprised at how actual personalized the support was that I got from the team and now the new one. One, we've adopted it and integration is so much easier, and our canvas our online support team understands it as well so it's easier, but Definitely, you had to play near there was some pioneering there. I know and I know I lost a couple other faculty that I recommended it to my husband being one of them, because he was just frustrated he's like what's the what key that I have to like, and he's like I'm not doing it. But I think I can maybe bring him back around now that it's easier to integrate. Yeah, you cannot. You keep talking about it so enthusiastically as you do. All right, well Chris is saying that he is would like to come on stage. The thing you and I have heard it repeated throughout the day. The idea of modeling being a very important and useful thing. And one of the questions I have repeated for a few groups now is you annotate and you have this material. Then the other half of it is what do you actually do with it. You do with your notes and your annotations and some of them are things one might call fleeting notes or reaction pieces. But then every now and then there will be something heavy and meaty with a good hook or word or piece that one can then jump off of. And I always like the or I remember having read in Benjamin Franklin's autobiography. He learned and taught himself how to write and write well by taking paragraphs from others works or full pages or essays. And he would copy them verbatim and then he would go through and take a second pass and rewrite it in his own words. And then rework it and rework it multiple times to eventually get to something he thought was at least as good as the original writing or better than. And typically he was using phenomenal writing exemplars from great writers of his time to do this. So that's kind of one piece that I always thought was an interesting method of exemplar. But the other one that I've been watching and it's it's kind of a growing community over the last maybe year and a half that there has been a growth in the kind of personal wiki space online. And a bunch of new tools like room research notion obsidian and a handful of others that are encouraging people to take and keep their own personal notes. And I think to a great extent these communities are building out their own personal examples of how to take notes and why you would want to take and keep notes. But I've done some heavy research on the traditions of the idea of the commonplace book. And it goes back to ancient Greece, at least within Western history, and became much more popular at the beginning of the, maybe the mid 1400s and on through the Renaissance. What is the commonplace book. So a commonplace book. And honestly, you could think of it almost as a notebook for anything. But as you're reading, if you didn't quite often in the early days books were awfully expensive and one couldn't afford to own their own, or you would own it for a while read it, take notes, make annotations, and you would put those into your commonplace book as a means of keeping it and then you either sold or passed the book along to the next place, or let's say you had access to an actual library, where the books were literally changed the shelves. You would read it there take your notes and then take all the knowledge you gleaned from that thing and move it on. And Erasmus is probably one of the original exemplars but he literally wrote a book, a textbook of how one would keep a commonplace what would go into it, what types of things you would do and literally in writing this book and it's subsequent spread took to a wide variety of scholars, the ability to then make their own commonplace books and move that tradition forward. I think we've lost. Those commonplace books eventually became in the early Middle Ages they became Florilegia, which were more religious oriented. And then the Renaissance brought that the original commonplace book idea kind of back into vogue. And I think we've lost a chunk of it in the 1900s and onward. And those things have been replaced by encyclopedias and in the modern world we now Google everything we need so why collect your own knowledge database. But if you have your own wiki and you use it, it can then become a razor against which you, you know, you can sharpen your own mind, or I guess maybe a, a strop with your razor being the mind being the better analogy. But there's been a rise recently with Sanka Aaron's has written in English about a German scholar named Nick losses. Luman, who, at the beginning of the 20th century started using note cards and kept a note card system where he would write his notes and annotations, particularly the juicy ones. And over his career, he managed to create 90,000 cards in what he called a Zettelkasten, or slip box in German. So he kept all of his annotations there and anytime he wanted to write an academic research paper, and he worked in sociology, he would literally go to his note card set, sort a handful of things and take ideas he'd been given from his reading. Where he had already written down some of his notes and as Sandra had mentioned, it's, can you kind of write down and keep or reword something you've seen in your writing, if you can reword it in your own words. He's already been doing the writing from his reading, taking others ideas and rewording them, reframing them, writing extended passages which it leverages on that kind of Ben Franklin idea I mentioned. So when he writes, needs to write a paper he can go through and find in his 90,000 card catalog deck. I want to write about this topic then he can find all those cards, transcribe big chunks of that and then tie it all together in a bigger idea. And suddenly, here's a new, here's a new paper. But I think this pattern has repeated itself throughout the centuries, and almost every significant academic or researcher, since the 1500s has kept or used a commonplace book, a Zettelkasten, you know there's 30 words to describe what these are. I mentioned earlier in one of the chats. There's an idea of a waste book that it comes out of the accounting concept for double entry bookkeeping accountants used to write down little snippets of receipts, and then they would take those lines and transfer them into their accounting books. So they call them waste books and you when you were done you threw it away. But there's a German tradition and an English tradition, both on the continent and in the UK or the current UK of people writing things and little slips to take these notes. And they all come from this similar tradition. It's just the name changes every, you know, 50 or 100 years, the current, if you look online now and you search for the phrase digital garden, you'll find a stream going roughly from about Mike Caulfield wrote a piece called Digital Gardens and Streams I think in 2015, and it has kind of grown from there. So the current online version of this is to have your own digital garden where you keep, collect and curate your annotations and notes from things you've read. And so I'm super curious to see and hear and watch people use that concept or give rebirth to it, because there's a super rich group of people annotating and modeling and showing how to bring that idea back. So I think it would be fun to see that kind of Renaissance idea of the commonplace book kind of reflower and take, take your notes, the best notes, not the me to comments that you write in the margins but the actual, I read this thing and it sparked this thought. Take those and collect those and use that as the resource then for writing essays writing papers. Sanka Aaron's book, how to take smart notes is probably the best version in the last three or four years of doing this in an academic setting I think. But it would be fun to see that type of thing, give rebirth because I think most professors and teachers say, Oh, we have to write an essay for the semester, or write a paper. And then, you know, what do you write your paper about brainstorm ideas well it's incredibly painful to brainstorm an idea day Novo. But if you've been taking notes in your research and work all along, you can then go back and plunder your notebook or your commonplace book for and the things you're annotating are going to be the things you find most interesting and useful. Use those and then you've now got a body of notes with citations let's be honest, which is another side benefit, and you can then write that paper, and it'll take you 20 minutes if you've got a reasonable source of material to write that from. And then you take the, you know, the annotations and the note taking you've been using all along and then leverage that and go from the digital reading literacy piece to the actual content production piece on the back end and I. I haven't seen this discussed in the academic setting by many yet, but I'm seeing this community around digital gardens, Zettle cast in Rome research and obsidian people are actively doing this now because they're seeing some of the prior examples to leverage that. I think that's so interesting. I think some of my students would be so excited if there was someone I think I talked about integrating out of the LMS and in because I give them like a Google syllabus so that they have all the readings and stuff to go forward, but then within canvas we annotate a curriculum map. And they've made all those connections across the whole semester. They get frustrated that they can't take that with them without redoing that but I think in a way that's very similar because I'm telling them these are things you're going to build on in your next course and they can't build it here but they can't you know connect it to to the next course but that would be really especially around the standards that we have this the curriculum map or the standards map in our teacher prep program to have something like that where the students could be annotating and bringing in across courses would be really powerful for them to kind of. I do know these things I have met these things I do understand all of it at the end. That would be interesting. And that's actually, I mean, one of the things I think was Sandra and I were kind of discussing before was how. When hypothesis got integrated into the LMS it entered a world where it then became harder to make those connections and keep your settle custom, you know, for yourself in your own little place, you can't even get back to it. You know, it's like it's your settle cast in this change in the wall, and you're thrust out of the room. And so, you know, it is our dream to be able to make those connections again, so that people can make those cross connections, especially like between one class and another right that's that's where like higher level learning can really start to take place, not just in the context of one class, connecting more than one. Even within hypothesis, and to some extent I think of my hypothesis account as a commonplace book, and I can cross connect ideas using tags, so that when I want to search for something I can search for a group of tags or even on the sidebar of hypothesis that you tell me, I've used this particular tag, you know, 57 times, and they're ranked in order so I can look at that and say, I'm super interested in these 20 topics. And I think after 50 that list drops off but if I click on one I can then see all these ideas, and then it becomes a small step or I have used John Udall's facet tool to do a search for that tag. And then I can export all that for those tags with quotes I highlighted and ideas I've written about myself or reframings I've done, put that in a document and then just rework it and turn it into a paper. But it's that I think that the tougher part for the Renaissance commonplace books was how do you link those ideas back and forth, you know, how do you create an index for it and literally was it his name will come to me in a second but there's an incredibly famous researcher in the 1700s is literally his first publication was writing about how to create an index for his commonplace book. And it was one of the things that initially made him famous. I can't believe I'm blanking and I think he actually started out as Francis Bacon secretary. And then became infinitely famous thereafter I'll pull it up in a minute but how do you link those things and the hypothesis with, you know, it's taxonomy setup helps to create those links, almost immediately. So you can search for it. Here's a list. Go. Except for it doesn't work in the LMS. And then if you. Yeah, or I think that would be sorry. If it's built into the LMS is there a way to have the built in LMS version still give me my own personal account that I can turn around and walk away with that actually is the goal Chris so that because it's that it's it's the goal of being able to take the commonplace book with you because it really should be yours right not it shouldn't be the institutions record of your commonplace book. And so the goal is to make it possible for at least the people who want to to be able to merge or join their institutional identity where work may have taken place inside the LMS with their, you know, annotation of one of one's own commonplace book that they might take on to their next adventure, but we're not there yet. Oh, it was. John Locke. Oh, I've heard of him. He's sort of famous. You know, somebody's heard of him once I think. Yeah. I'd have that be your first, your first published piece, and then go on to write what John Locke wrote. But I think a lot of his output and a lot of that Renaissance on output became a result of people keeping all their annotations in one space. Another good example I always like to use is Isaac Newton inherited I think from his uncle. He wrote a 50 book that he put the title waste book on and took notes and ultimately turned that notebook into what is now the calculus. So he literally wrote the calculus out of his own commonplace book, and then subsequently published but you can. There's a digital version online you can now go look at to see exactly how he developed it because it's all documented and written into his commonplace book. And then subsequently he went through and rewrote it and published papers and books thereafter. But it's interesting to see that kind of evolution of how do you take some small initial thoughts and push them down the proverbial hill of snow to turn it into a big snowball at the bottom. And then there's a little conversation around data sovereignty and why didn't it start there and actually did start there because that's everything that Chris is referring to is sort of possible out in beyond the LMS world. But it was hypothesis is, you know, journey into the underworld of the MLS of the LMS. And you can talk that, you know, that brought this new world of siloed, you know, kind of interaction that doesn't allow for that kind of thing. So it is our goal to try to, you know, break it out from the inside. We'll see what happens. I think I the integration to the LMS was really helpful for those of us that teach like you have a class and it's what they take at one time and it's asynchronous and it's the ease of use without them having to create another login or go outside or give them lots of guidance, more guidance. So the guidance and the modeling that I do in the class is more about the type of annotations and how they want, I want them to interact with each other versus just getting up and running with the new technology, which depending on the course can be difficult for some students and then you have others that are, you know, it's easy but there's always pros and cons of standardization of anything and integrating into the LMS there's standardization that can benefit but it also then makes it more difficult for some of those really innovative ideas. You know, one thing that one of the earlier panelists on in the digital literacies panel, Janae Kohn often talks about is how she scaffolds experiences that start in the safe quote unquote space of the LMS to get people used to that idea of modeling, reading and modeling, short writing and making those small connections, and then graduating them out to kind of public discourse with that same idea. And then maybe by then they're ready to sign up for their own account instead of resting easy on the LMS integration. Maybe they are but you can tell you're not in teacher preparation where you now have to get a teacher up and classroom ready in one year and it's ridiculous. It's so hard because I think all of these ideas are wonderful and if you go over time and you kind of develop that skill set but then we're like, we're trying to pump you out in a master's program in 11 months and give you everything you need to know about K to 12. But yeah, there's always that tension. I'm just seeing a question thrown out from Raimi here. The social aspects of getting students and what really I one of the things I've struggled with teaching asynchronous online classes is establishing that sense of community that you can more easily in a face to face class where the first day we talk about I share with them kind of my understandings and my definitions for diversity equity inclusion and then we co create classroom values. We're going to be taking risks in the space how what kind of rules or procedures do we need in place what values should our class have to get that conversation to allow those conversations to be had trying to translate and do that same thing in an asynchronous class online is challenging. But I think using some of the same kind of concepts that I do in the face to face, and then over time having them in their small groups. Talk about what does that mean and how do they respond to each other instead of just presenting them like you need to read a discussion post you need to respond one time and make sure that you don't bully people like which is what the syllabus that I got before. Previously that was for one of the online classes I taught that was what basically what was it was sort of like scolding and got against bullying and I'm like I you understand that but you also need to establish that sense of community and so. And I don't use flip grid, but I use our LMS has the ability to let students put in video capture video easily within the discussion threads as well as within my hypothesis tool and others. So I utilize that quite a bit. And any time a student responds to a discussion post or any assignment. I use video to respond back to them a short video use their name. Some kind of component about them make some connection about. Oh well you mentioned your child and this or your child went to an IB school just to try to build that and I see them as a modeling and see them start to do that together so they when they're even when they're annotating about. Certain ideas around explicit instruction and early decoding. They had per they feel more comfortable adding personal components or telling personal stories, and they will sometimes use little video clips of themselves talking about something which is really nice that they feel safe but I think it does take. Almost to what feels like from the asynchronous side from the instructor point hitting over the head again and again and again, but this is a safe space and here's exactly why helps for them to do that and also being willing to share components about yourself. And your own thought process and how it's changed I think helps that but I think the students both enjoy some of the discussion threads but also. The annotation component becomes more collaborative and social and supportive when it's not the only way they've interacted so they have interacted previously they've. And shared personal information and then they really are able to start to feel like they're communicating with each other even though it's asynchronous. Wow, John brought up a whole another interesting point. I was just grooving on what you were saying there. I'm interested here. Yeah, about institutional acceptance and let Lysandro is telling me a little bit about her her road there at UVA where she was an early adopter and had some had some pain and suffering right. I will nobody else, even our online support team which is amazing and coming from another institution that basically told you you're going online and we didn't give you any support at all. It was amazing to have the support team that that UVA has but they didn't know no hypothesis at the time when I started using it. And I really leaned heavily on the hypothesis team who were so wonderful about responding to emails and even getting on pre zoom calls I don't know what thing we use wasn't zoom to support me. But now there's a small growing community that does really use it across grounds not just in the school of education. But I still have I think I was mentioning my husband earlier who's also a professor in our department and he tried to do it one time had trouble with the LMS couldn't get it to work and he's not coming back to it but some people aren't as patient as as I am. It seems like you've really managed to make it pay off for yourself but when you think about it, maybe just even in the department or school level or God forbid, university wide. Do you have you felt like it's part of your duty almost to try to spread spread the gospel. I do and when I talk to people about it, especially because we do reading, I teach reading and intervention and when I talk to other faculty that are doing reading intervention because there are so many this parallels and allows the students to interact with the text the same way that we hope that our future teachers do in terms of chunking materials summarizing that paragraph like there's some different number of different reading interventions that include that partner reading and then they paragraph shrink and then they take turns and they make predictions and then they check. So it allows you to do so many of those same things but with a scholarly article or a reading front. I would love actually if I could get a digital copy of some of the texts that we use the textbooks that we use and they could interact with that because without me having to either copy things or redo things because there are often times have had them annotate like lesson plans or curriculum that CKLA has some great curriculum units online and having the students annotate those and talk about what parts would be difficult as a teacher what part really makes sense. Taking a set of IP objectives and then them using where would I be able to embed these within. I mean there's a lot of different ways to utilize it but it just takes time and you get better as you try it out and I could leave fail the first time when I didn't realize that in the early integration that even though I had my students groups they were all on one document. And I thought they were in small groups of like five but they were really 45 people in the class all it was just. It was really difficult because it becomes very busy when you open it up and there's 45 people all trying to. John John keeps circling around this like how can we make administrators Karen that may be above our pay grade I don't know. Us I was really enthusiastic and one of the online support people was really enthusiastic and they really pushed it and then I did go to a university wide center for teaching excellence technology integration seminar that personally I didn't find very helpful but I did bring up hypothesis and now I do know that they're using it in other departments. I have no idea if there were other people that were already or in other schools. I don't know if they were already going that route, but it seemed like there became a lot more institutional support and it does make it help more helpful and I don't know on the other end, what we pay or what we have to pay to pay to be integrated into canvas and all of that components but I think for adoption schools and just like anything else in K to 12, if administrators are not going to support it. You're going to find a few little innovative teachers doing things but if you really want it to go you need, you need that support because we're all short on time. Well one thing that's happening and I think Rami Rami asked that question before he's probably still here in the audience we could even call him up on stage to but you know there's a really big research project going on now at Indiana University in their kind of, you know, freshman English and literature program, and part of the goal of that research, and I can put a blog post and linked into it about it. Part of the goal that research is to really try to understand the degree to which social annotation does have some kind of effect on student success more broadly, whether that's reading or writing or both. And, I mean, it's, you know, to john's question I think those are the kinds of stories that turn administrators heads, when you're talking about, you know, changing the student success metrics in some significant way, kind of across the board, which is kind of a holy grail in education research. It is. I am personally trying to start a study and I have three sections of one class and there's two other sections in the fall and I'm like this is the perfect place to kind of do the components across time in each of the classes so that we can sort of see how effective it is for the students and what their perceptions are on it but it's always hard to study in your own classes and try to find the time and the space and you're so close to it that if there is a perceived that you're hesitant to either delay it or to, you know, really do a true experiment in your own class because it feels like there's, you don't want to not allow some students to have access to things that are going to help them and sometimes you're caught up in the teaching and learning to take it that step back but I'm hopeful that I, that I can especially when I have other sections of the course being taught by adjuncts that I'm like, I can help you and I can, even though it's the same content and it's my content I feel like I'm a degree away from it that'll be easier to Well, yeah, that sounds really worthy and Rami pointed out in the chat that actually the folks from Indiana who are running that research project will be in a very similar session to this on Friday so that would be a great place for people who are interested to go but also, you know, if you need an ear to bounce your research thinking off, my Sandra, I'm just going to nominate Rami even though he may not, he may not appreciate it, but at any rate, he is Sure, after the podcast that he invited me to ask him questions and come to him as a resource, I'm pretty sure he said that Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did too, so we can take him at his word. I mean, we're all, we're all super busy and everything but it's, he's really been, he's been acting as Hypothesis a scholar and residence for this past year. I guess he's just about to finish out his term here. But as part of it, part of his role has been to connect with people who are considering research projects around around social annotation. So it is part of I've been looking at research studies using that partner reading reciprocal reading for lower grades and thinking of sort of replicating At the university level a very similar kind of construct to see how that that might really support their reading. I know we we ask so much of our I mean, so much reading is done in higher ed. And I think hopefully most instructors are getting better at sort of making sure that students that you Ask them to apply it and use it in some way or they're not going to do it but also how are we supporting their comprehension. We just expect them all to have the same level of comprehension coming in And that's just not, you know, we we expect differences in K to 12 and then all of a sudden caught in higher ed. We're like, Hey, you're this monolith of smart kids that come to my class and you should just be able to do it and So I'm interested in seeing how that both reciprocal with the text but also reciprocal with a partner would be helpful to enhance their comprehension. I'm telling you and is that is that partner stuff is that kind of like in my non, you know, teacher educator mind is that like the reading buddy model sort of Sort of but it's structured very structured especially in special ed any and well in special ed anything is going to be explicit. But also the intervention. Yeah, there and there's a number of different models of doing it but they're quite a few that have similar traits and I'd like to kind of see what if I can model that those essential elements in the in the higher ed space. I think it's funny how and obviously keep mentioning in certain areas. There are these practices of learning how to explicitly learning how to read right and very like structured ways and everywhere else is just sort of like Like you can breathe while you can read and it's like no one practices it or models it or, you know, just expects everybody to just walk up to any text and be able to do my level reading on it, which is not really that easy to do. No, it's not and I think so many students make it to higher ed and just don't realize how inefficient some of their studies, study habits are and so some of them have really appreciated using, especially around the curriculum map because they're like, oh, I see you keep coming back to the same ideas and building on them and then building on them and I'm like, yes, that's how we're building our knowledge you do you don't learn you don't read one thing one time and you've mastered all those ideas, how it builds on itself is really important. I'm seeing some other questions or two if you're still if you're still got some energy so this one. And I'm probably mangling this aside for a or for. And other professors, I, I'm not sure I think I mentioned it before my husband is definitely reluctant but that's because he likes things to work one time. And he's kind of like, I'm going to put together that IKEA furniture set without looking at the rules and then matter the directions and then get mad whenever it doesn't work right. So he was not a good one but I have talked to other faculty that have been open to it and then other faculty that are just like, wow, I can't believe there's this thing that can do this because some people, especially if they've already adopted voice thread have kind of understand the benefits and why you would want to do it. And, and I think there are some people that are like no I'm happy doing it the way I've done it, and then others that have adopted it. I don't, especially in the last year, unfortunately, have not been talking as closely as I usually do to other faculty members about teaching and I think there's so many of our meetings and things have just been taken up with just putting out the fires caused by COVID and going online with very little kind of notice. And we haven't had those informal kind of connections of talking about teaching and learning. And I'm about to have like a sun right come down. Well, here in Portland, we run from the sun whenever it comes out. Yeah, I mean, and I mean, everybody's just exhausted to right. I mean, we don't really have the capacity to take new thoughts right now. It's, it's been, yeah, it's been one heck of a heck of a year. I'm glad to be vaccinated and starting to ease back into the world. Yes, congratulations on that. You know, John, there's some other things going on here, but John, John was also asking about this question about, you know, how early can people get started doing social annotation and of course, I've seen some, you probably know way more about this idea, but I've seen some great models of offline non digital social annotation was very young people. Yeah, the pal's reading them pure assisted learning and starting in grade two they use a lot of that partner reading and paragraph shrinking prediction relays and so they use other components but one part of it is similar where they read a component and then one of them has to kind of summarize or take away. There's also like clear collaborative strategic reading where they will work together and they go through a passage and they identify the clunks and the clicks and so the clunks are kind of those things that where is the meaning loss where am I having trouble with this and then the clunks are the things that they've got right away. And so any one of those kind of and that's usually from to grade two up. And there's a lot of variations of this kind of social annotation, although it's not necessarily that digital representation, I know that there is a big IES study and I'm blanking on who has it. I was at a conference last year and they were talking about doing it in a in a digital format and I was like oh my gosh that sounds exactly like hypothesis. And so it's under review but it was for two grades two through six so I'm not sure. Any level I think any level where you're being able to independently read text and get meaning from text I mean you could do it with peer support or instructor support if you're not independently reading at that level but it's so flexible the students can be responding to the text in many different ways. Yeah I mean I think that the technology hurdles are can be pretty substantial but the act of it isn't really that it's some straightforward thing to do if you're not you don't have to log into something. Now the kids all the kids in the last year going to be really much better at logging into something. I did interview a bunch of community college students about their experiences in it during the pandemic and the one thing that all of them said was they didn't feel like they were very technologically literate before the pandemic but they got better during it. So I was in a university wide something the other and the presenter was having trouble with her zoom and sharing your screen and stuff and I was like you can tell who has not been teaching. Hey well maybe I know it's probably getting late for you and the sun's coming out and you're getting tired. How about this one last thought here going back to Chris again although I kicked him off the stage rudely. Just thinking about this idea of do you start an annotation process empty or do you have it filled up a little bit. Well I go through and model for the students the types of things that I want to them to respond. So I give them the prompt and the article that they're doing but because in the LMS it's every course is its own annotation. So even if I've used the same article before for this course it's blank. So I go in and specifically do a couple that I that model the kinds of things I want to say like oh wow this I think is so important because and it makes me remember that thing that we talked about. Or sometimes a couple of just real personal ones like wow that's why my first grade teacher did that you know so that they see the kind of prompts I want to but I have to go in and do it because there is nothing. Because I use it within Canvas anything even if it's the same article it doesn't pull forward any annotations we do go back to the same article in different modules and so then they can revisit what they did and come back to it but all of them are new in the course so. Yeah, and that is another I mean it's sometimes useful but it's sometimes not useful to just sort of like to have the flexibility to maybe choose whether you wanted annotations to surface. This is also like marking up the tree of if there could be structured sort of models that could be like kind of pushed into the LMS environment maybe. And we have talked about that about if there was some ability to kind of have I don't want to call them lesson plans but some kind of like models that could be you could grab off a shelf sort of that might be attached to a particular reading or something and kind of deploy it inside a class. So not no work's been done on that yet but. No it would be it would be interesting and I think just as you build things out more kind of guidance and but it's what's hard is. Over time for me I found certain articles with a certain amount of pages that at a certain point seem to work best but again everybody's curricular map is going to be slightly different and it depends on the purpose if you could use it like some many people do for their syllabus and it's brand new at the beginning and it's not reliant on previous knowledge but the way that I've been in two courses that I consistently teach like to do it around week five in a specific way where they're starting to pull together some ideas and I'm hoping that they can connect beforehand and so it's sort of this formative check and then we come back again later and then they build upon that and and that has been really beneficial for for the students. So we'll see but I imagine it varies depending on the purpose and the type of assessment you're using it for if if it's just for assessment I mean I think it is always going to be. Helping them deepen or they're learning and be a collaborative component and I really appreciated in that session earlier when they were talking about the kind of the public nature of it and I think that's really important for them to be able to take risks and ask questions especially or or challenge some components of the reading. You need to make sure that that's that safe place so. And it's safer when the author is dead right. And it's John Locke. One of the pieces by Zaretta Hammond that I use and she is not dead and I'd love for her to see some of the components of you know if I could actually then share it out to her but no it's because they really appreciate some of her ideas around connecting high quality instruction with equity and it's just a really powerful piece that I have consistently use that they is wonderful. I like this idea though you're talking to about that annotation can be just your first reading and actually be a reason to come back to it. Because that's another thing that we don't really do that often except scholars is come back and read it again right except when you're a kid and you had that favorite book and you read it over and over and over. You know you read it 7000 times even though you knew it inside and out. And then we lose it. We do we do I well and I think along with the curricular map the reason I started doing that is I we have a couple frameworks and in reading around the four part processor. And I like to use kind of that graphic and have them start to be like oh yeah this article that we read or this piece or this activity that really helped me understand that component more so that they can build on to that framework and so it's it's a shorter thing but it helps them come back to it in ways that I think shows them that sometimes you have to read especially some theoretical stuff multiple times before you really get a solid understanding of it. Yeah like Hegel I had a lot of clunks when I was reading Hegel. Not very many clicks. Well gosh we've taken up so much of your really wonderful time. It was so great to show this. Yeah but I we should probably close up here and I'll just let folks know that this is the the end of the formal program for today. But there's one more event if you haven't had enough yet where we're having a social hour we'll see how that goes. And people are going to bring their favorite annotations and possibly some people dress up in costume I don't know. Besides just a rumor I heard but anyway so if people really want to keep hanging around and talking on video talks you're welcome to do that next. It's going to start in a few minutes. Thank you so much again Lissandra. I saw Rami was in the chat he was affirming that we can connect so yeah you got it down. Okay so thank you. Thanks a lot for coming and good luck on you know whatever the next thing is like putting that research project together is fantastic. Thank you.