 Okay, so I think I think everybody's joined. So good afternoon again So my name is Julian Digby. I'm a solutions consultant at edgyserve In my role I look at cloud adoption and cloud architecture with our local government and other public sector customers I'm joined today by Omid Shiraji who's the CIO of Camden Borough Council and also Helena Zellm from Microsoft who is in the local government focused department there So the agenda today, I'm just going to give you five minutes around a cloud and from the perspective of Supporting new IT operating models, then Omid is going to give you some of his insights from implementing new IT operating models across a number of organizations in both the public and private sector and Helena is going to then come in and discuss some success stories of cloud adoption in the public sector that she's been working on so In terms of the opportunity for cloud for the public sector It's quite often pitched Certainly the cloud infrastructure as a service model is Pitched as something that can help improve your service availability your resilience and Potentially reduce total cost of ownership But it can do many things for you cloud adoption and Just wanted to sort of cast it in a slightly different light as it being a tool to enable Digital transformation What what cloud IS actually allows you to do in a lot of cases is offload quite a lot of Tasks and effort that are associated with Managing the the old world of on-premise data centers, so hardware maintenance patching operating systems Antivirus and general infrastructure management They can be off loaded onto service providers freeing up resources within your organization to do more transformational Activities that deliver real value to your organization and to your citizens The way that the way that it can really help in these areas The cloud IS solution gives you a lower cost of entry so The the cost of actually trying new things Spinning up service to give something ago trying a new piece of software trying a new approach is vastly reduced and Application-focused engineers are able to Deal with spinning up servers where previously you may have to it Had a separate set of roles to cover that Which kind of reduces the the agility of Trying out new things. There's a lower cost of failure. That's another way of pitching it really being able to Try something and you know if it doesn't work out Admit, do you know what that that time it didn't pay out for us? But because we haven't invested a large amount of money in long-term ITT assets it hasn't actually Caused us in any particular loss And it's just in general. It's just easier to try new things And you know all of these can add up to to an increase in agility and for your ICT service So on top of all the good things around resilience and total cost of ownership It really does Grease the wheels of transformation So if you're considering Cloud adoption it is useful to to conduct a cloud readiness assessment or a cloud adoption assessment This is something that that I've done with a number of public sector bodies Whilst working for edu-serve Really this is looking at a number of indicators across your organization as to how ready you are for Cloud adoption or further cloud adoption Another set of indicators one of them is technical readiness And a large part of that is how virtualized you are how easy it is to to make migrations of service potentially But there are other indicators that look more at cultural and organizational aspects of your organization So just giving some examples Security is quite a significant one so Talking with a public sector partner recently They had an experience where every time they they Involved a new set of people around a cloud adoption program all the same questions around security came up and You know over and over again, they were having to justify that the cloud was secure enough the controls were sufficient and so forth so from a readiness point of view having a top-down view of what Appropriate cloud security is what your Information classifications are what the security controls that you need to put in place to protect those are what is acceptable is Is absolutely recommended Because it stops you having to go over all ground as you as you're working through a cloud adoption program Another area would be you know if you're perhaps away from the IS side of things looking at software as a service so more and more Adoption of software as a service Understanding what it is you need from those providers in terms of assurances around both security and resilience Is pretty key so that when you're procuring those services You you are ensuring that the the high standards of security and availability that you currently have on your on-premise organization Will be replicated in the cloud and that's you know, they're not Offering you a SAS solution off the back of a couple of laptops or something So, you know, those are those are elements of a cloud adoption readiness Process that you can put in place And like say that, you know, you can you can have help in Identifying where you are on that journey and what elements of Of readiness you need to invest more effort in To have a smooth journey to the cloud So that that's my perspective for today's talk I'm going to hand over now to Omid who's going to talk you through his experiences of Deploying a new IT operating model and developing new IT operating model in the public and private sector So over to you Omid Thank you very much Julian. I hope you can all hear me. Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to my Hopefully brief sermon on my experiences of building an IT operating model and but not just for cloud a Little bit about me I've worked in technology leadership roles over the last 15 years or so across multiple sectors in the tertiary sector I was last director of service at City University in London in the private sector I was CIO for an organization called working links and in the public sector I've had the pleasure of being interim CIO for the London borough of Camden for the last 18 months or so As I've worked across these different sectors I found them obviously a very interesting learning experience and obvious lots of differences in the types of challenges that you face But there is actually quite a striking similarity in the work that I've done and particularly in defining and designing new operating models for IT Both in the cloud and a non-cloud world So I thought I'd take the opportunity today to talk you through some of what I've learned Some of the mistakes I've made Some of the approaches that I've taken to developing IT operating models across different sectors But with a little bit more focus on the work. I've led at Camden over the last 18 months or so So Let's start with the operating model and first so we're all on the same baseline a definition and Many many clever people than I have researched and developed endless volumes of discourse about operating models what they are and depending on your management persuasion, you'll have a view about what it means and probably already use some kind of model yourself Personally speaking, I've got quite a small brain So I described the operating model as a way of showing the types of things that the IT function needs to do For the organization that I'm working in And what's quite interesting for me is that without failure across every sector and organization that I've experienced Not one of them has started with an operating model when thinking about the type of IT that they actually need All of them have started with one of these Yep the trusty old org chart And what I found quite common is that the stakeholders I've worked for and for example chief execs finance directors or chief operating officers Have all initially thought about IT from this perspective the form rather than the function and often what goes along with this org chart is a spreadsheet with all the costs of these roles and IT is already there by position to the cost drain to the organization rather than the value creator and At normally at this point there's also some view about in-sourcing and outsourcing of IT and cloud obviously plays a part of that Now I'm not saying that there's anything fundamentally wrong with this It's perfectly normal But in my view for an organization to really exploit technology it needs to begin at a slightly different starting point than the old org structure And they always say start with the most basic question and I found this question Over the course of my career is the humdinger in order to actually start at the beginning There we go. Fantastic. So the question is What exactly do we do here? And I normally follow that up with can you show me that on a single page And if I'm feeling really mischievous I might follow that up with why exactly do we do what we do here? But my reflection is that there's a bit of a health warning attached to that Most people I've ever asked that last question to have said omit. What a good question Human me a bit and then politely or sometimes impolitely change the subject Now the reason I always start with what does my organization do is that I don't think you can create the appropriate IT capability in the cloud or not if you're unable to articulate what it will be delivering for If you're fortunate enough and your organization has invested the time and resource into answering that question Someone should be able to put in front of you a single page which actually describes in some way what your organization does And if they can't do that Then I found the very first thing that I've had to do and it's persuaded the organization I'm working for that they need to invest a bit of resource into this design piece of work and That is always a challenge because from their perspective They've been existing perfectly fine in a world where this artifact doesn't exist and in a world where I'm saying that's now really important for the delivery of IT And I've tried a number of analogies just a bit of a kind of reflexive learning and tried to help tell the story about why this is important Most of them have been pretty crap Including one about a gorilla fleas and midges that I use that one board meeting That I was at several years ago that still haunts me vividly to this very day But the one that does seem to land best is a narrative about architecture And simply put nobody in their right mind would ever say to it would employ a builder and say to them You see that plot of land over there. I'd like a three bedroom two bathroom house with a garage, please Here's some money and now I want to see your organizational chart and know exactly how many plumbers electricians and laborers I'm getting for the cash. I'm giving you There's a really good reason why construction starts with architectural design But for some reason this principle seems to get lost in lots of organizations, particularly where it is concerned So I've been talking a while and I've kind of flitted the word cloud here and there But in a world where it's so easy for anyone in an organization to buy IT services on a credit card Having the starting point being what your organization does and then designing the IT operating model from there becomes even more important Now there are a few different tools that you can use to capture what your organization does In my experience, I've come to prefer the capability approach and so can you jump back and Which provides a common language and groups the things that your organization does into a single logical grouping When I arrived at Camden in my first local government role With the context of a desire to build a shared IT service across three councils. I did ask my questions What do we do and can someone show me on a page? And the answer to the first question was we do a lot and the answer to the second question was not on your Nellie so I commissioned a piece of work to do just that and If we flip to the next slide you can see this is what the outcome looked like so a Couple of things to point out in this artifact. It might be a bit difficult to see the quality is not that good But these are logical groupings of what a local authority specifically Camden does But also actually what is linked to the Herring gate councils the other partners in the share digital service what they do and There I say it. This is probably Exactly the same as what almost every other London local authority does and probably most of the local authorities up and down the country Now we found that this picture helped provide a common language and for us to deal with stakeholders in each authority Because when you're no longer talking about individual org charts or services or teams You can have a much more objective conversation about ambition and strategy and you remove some of the baggage that comes along with the human ego And the other thing that you can use this to do and this next slide is a tiny bit busy But from a technology perspective you can overlay all of your major line of business applications And this helps to both highlight complexity But also areas of commonality and here it's color-carried until you can see which boroughs have kind of which applications and You can then use this to drive the strategic conversation around What to share and what not to share and again how to what types of services? You need to deliver across or your council And again in a cloud world If you don't articulate all this upfront Rather than actually enabling the organizational strategy the technology investments that you make are likely to actually block What your organization is trying to achieve? I'll give you a tangible example of that If for example, there's an ambition to share a finance capability An investment in a cloud finance system might take you down a road of configuration and minimal process change And that has an cultural and organizational implication across any Council in this case that may want to consume that to Going back to my earlier comment about sourcing Taking this kind of what do we do capability approach helps you get some clarity on your organization sourcing approach and the in consequent impact that will have on an operating model So by way of an example here is The three councils different sourcing approach to the way they deliver housing So you can kind of see from these color coded sections here that these two councils deliver housing Internally mostly in the same way and this council Doesn't it uses an arms length body and a trading company? And this is really useful Insight to help your organization realize that the types of things that you need to do from an IT perspective in an in-house model Are different than if you have a company vehicle Now if nothing else the way you manage relationships on IT will be really different Think kind of service level agreement versus partnering and influencing Now I spent quite a lot of time in the what does my organization do space and show new examples of that Simply because in my experience, that's the hardest bit in developing the right operating model for your organization I found another couple of benefits as well and one is that you get a To engage with a lot of different stakeholders across all levels within your organization when you take this approach to developing your operating model And not only does that help improve the reputation of IT But actually during that process you can identify key principles that help you design your operating model key priorities Imperatives pain points opportunities All of which when you come to actually designing the operating model will be useful in Making sure it's the right fit and then testing it back when you replay And so you've got an example here is the finished article or at least one of the last iterations of the Operating model that we have proposed that the shared digital service that Camden Islington and Harring gay Takes the form of and based on the intelligence and data we gathered from what does our business do? This model was designed and tested with stakeholders across each council who actually then recognized Why we suggested it set up in this way and how it would enable them to deliver to their agenda Which is a mixture of transformation and efficiency And I'll cook you conscious how I'll talk you through very quickly this And so at the top you probably can see the kind of demand side of IT managed with partnering That actually is grouped around the capabilities of those councils as well as Facing off to each particular council and what that gives you is for example partnership that is supporting housing And the approach to housing across three But then also has a responsibility for kind of executive management and relationships across each individual borough and that gives you the ability to share As well as the ability to kind of influence strategic direction in each authority In the middle, this is kind of the delivery side of it. You can see there's a product approach here and that Logically groups again and let's take housing again the applications that would be delivering to the housing capability and would own end to end the life cycle of the development of that service So you can kind of think that if you're in a kind of cloud space for example, and you're a cloud platform The the types of roles that you need there need to be working, you know road mapping understanding the upcoming releases and changes and working with services to Plan those releases and actually implement them Now the bottom here is the more kind of enabling services. So there's infrastructure There's a capability with all that called cloud management, which also involves orchestration You can kind of start to see the types of roles and skills that you're going to need in your IT organization And on the right here, this is my favorite bit. This is the what we call the pop-up teams and this is a capability that brings together technical competency with kind of service users and in some cases residents or members and Grouped around themes such as natural mobility. This is where projects and change are delivered very quickly very iteratively and then these teams kind of disband and go back into where they sit in the rest of the organization So this kind of operating model describes the stuff that you want IT to do and how it fits in with your organization And as I mentioned, you can identify the skills and roles that you need in each of these functions And you get you then use that to get to that ultimate org chart that is so craved by in most Organizations, so what's all this got to do with cloud? Hopefully you've you've seen some of my thoughts littered as I've been talking But bear with me we're getting a bit closer to that answer Now as we understand what the organization does and we have a view of the stuff I team now needs to do and how it all fits together The next step I consider is the sourcing approach And I suggest that this is done in my experience best by assessing what the core competencies needed in IT are And you do that based on the insight revealed by the kind of business capability work And then you use that analysis to determine the sourcing strategy for components of your IT operating model and And I tend to use this as a model. This is an ATT and E model And you can kind of see here. I mean, it's not It's kind of Julian's point earlier. You can see suggested capabilities that potentially could be outsourced or delivered In the clouds and those that could be retained And as you did imagine the higher kind of value IT capabilities like strategy relationships innovation They're suggested that they're retained and perhaps more commoditized capabilities like infrastructure are suggested to be outsourced However, my reflection in learning is that actually this all depends on Those core competencies that you identify in the design work and I'll give you some tangible examples of that When I worked in higher education, for example a key differentiator when we were doing this analysis was the services that directly interface with students and For IT this meant that a core competency was actually the IT and AV support teams that provided direct one-to-one service to students And consequently our decision that would never be outsourced or Source differently And at the time I was leading that work. There was a massive drive to outsourced services to drive down cost And you know my personal view on whether this thinking the fundamental for this thinking was there anyway Using this kind of approach Really helped me to explain to the organization why actually in that context for higher education outsourcing the IT Service desk at that time just wouldn't be sensible And I contrast this with my last role in the private sector were actually the IT service desk and support capabilities Well, we went through this process and it was identified as non-core. So actually it did make sense to buy that from a provider Which is indeed what I did This kind of sourcing assessment approach has two other implications specifically for cloud Now I've used this model as an aid for internal IT staff as part of the kind of change management process to service redesign So by describing the roles that you need such as design analysis architecture orchestration That are needed in an IT team that's kind of based higher up this this model Has helped the people in my teams when I've gone through this process Understand where they may fit in Understand that they need to reskill and develop themselves to take advantage of cloud services or other of the way the IT industry is going and to help the organization exploit them for our own benefit and Secondly this model You can start to see how you can make decisions on which part of the stack Or if you know if it is cloud for example, you want to go which part of the cloud stacks You only to start to buy in as part of your strategy For example in one of my previous roles We decided that the infrastructure of the OS layer was not something we needed to manage There wasn't a core competency So we started an infrastructure as a service program to move the compute to the cloud and now that decision was suitable for that company at that time, but I was also doing some work with a financial services firm Who didn't go through all of this approach, but when they were looking at what their core competency was They valued speed and low latency transactions So their decision was that that infrastructure stack was core and they needed to retain it in-house So as we heard all towards the end of my allotted time quite conscious that I'm probably running over I hope this has been a useful summary of an approach you can take to help an organization get the most from its IT By designing an IT operating model starting from what the business does And I promised you all checklists. So here it is This is my suggested checklist So resist the temptation to start from the org chart be strong and challenging get underneath the skin of your organization Figure out what it doesn't get it on a page In doing so have those valuable conversations with your stakeholders senior leaders and customers Identify what's important and then use that to build your model Lay of the technology on top of what your organization does that way you can see the gaps the opportunities and the strategic choices start to emerge Figure out how your organization delivers its products and services and then align your IT model to cope with that Draw up your IT model and test it with stakeholders playing back how it will enable your organization to deliver whatever your strategy is And agree and focus on what is core and develop your sourcing approach around this The technology choices that you make whether cloud or not should be based on the way you classify your competencies And what will give you advantage? Whether that's in the commercial context in the private sector or actually for the benefit of the public in the public sector So with that I I hope you found this webinar useful I've tried to pull out a smattering of reflections and learning as I've talked through the approaches I've used in the past But I'll finish up with one final comment about cloud and Now I see cloud is a really important way to provide capability But you can see from from here my starting point is not to build my model around the cloud It's always to start to build it around the business and hopefully this is giving you some insight into a way to do that So thank you very much for listening Happy to take any questions at the end But for now I'll hand over to Helena from Microsoft to provide her insight into about in about what she's seeing across the private and public sector Thanks very much on it So I've got the pleasure today of very briefly Highlighting a couple of stories and I'm conscious that it could well be that some of the folks listening on the line are the real owners of these stories So if that's the case, thank you very much And you know, I know that you can't speak at the moment, but you may be able to communicate through the through the chat so and there are some wonderful examples, I think out in our local and regional government business of Some super innovation coming down the line And I just wanted to take a couple of minutes to talk you through a few examples of that So the first one that we've been privileged to be part of is the journey that Wolverhampton have been going on towards creating their confident capable council So I think that the key thing to say here is that, you know, cloud has been a really important part, I think, of that journey But actually it's been a journey of modernizing how they provide services out to citizens Cloud's part of that, but it's also been about enabling their staff with the latest and greatest technology from a hardware point of view as well So, you know, very kind of broad agenda So what have they done really? They have empowered their staff by encouraging mobile and home working using Office 365 and Surface and a whole heap of other good technology under there They've also modernized the back ends of their operations and migrated that over to the cloud, which has given them greater security and resilience And also, you know, has helped them tackle some of the challenges around cyber and what have you But, you know, I think the other thing that it will have done is to provide them with, you know, great platform for innovation They have managed to make very substantial savings, which is, you know, which is fantastic And they've done that really through reducing cost of facilities and resources So very well positioned, I think, to start to make the most of some of what cloud has to offer And I know that they're not alone and that there are other organizations, I think, Derby, Enfield and Somerset are some of the ones that we often speak about But some really great work has been happening there Right, click on to the next slide, hopefully you can all see that now So if you were able to speak, I would ask you to guess where this is But I'm going to let you know that's a beautiful picture of Kent Where we've had the privilege of working with a number of teams down there On how they can actually work together more effectively to provide citizen centric services So I think one of the biggest challenges that we face in our marketplace is how we can actually do the heavy lifting of getting the relevant political alignments to allow us to work, you know, with other councils in the area But also with health, police and schools as an example So I know that in Kent, they've done some fantastic work to bring the local health services into the fold And sometimes the technology is probably the easiest part of the journey You know, and I don't underestimate the amount of work that goes into making sure that the political alignment is there What that's actually enabled them to do though is to Give the citizen a greater responsibility for the data that they have So, you know, the data in this sense is owned by the citizen and that is enabled by having one unique ID for citizens across Kent. So really, really ambitious work that's going on down in Kent Now, you know, I think moving to the cloud is obviously is not trivial and sometimes it can feel like a long way off but the last point that I really wanted to share with you is actually about some of Our earlier adopters to cloud technology who are actually now entering the utopian worlds to which we all aspire of actual real data led decision making So some of our earlier adopters are now really able to make use of their data to allow them to make day-to-day decisions from real-time information displayed in modern dashboards whether that's at the exact level or elsewhere across their organization and that's allowing the fact that they've got their data in one place in You know a space where it's possible to dial up and dial down The amount that that you need at a particular time is actually allowing them to start to make use of some of the modern Data capabilities that are out there machine learning and the like And that is enabling them to begin to try and identify Where they think they may have instances of vulnerable citizens who may be coming and needing to use their service at some point soon Whether that's you know focusing care or perhaps children who are You know on the kind of at risk, but You know not fully engaged with services yet They can try and identify them early and take proactive action It's also helping them with their future financial plans And so it's really lovely to see some of our customers who you know Who've done some of the heavy lifting and really been through the complex work that said that omid was describing Actually start to come out the other end and really really be able to take advantage of You know of what the cloud can offer them And so in terms of how we can help and I'll make this my my last point And you know, we are always looking to partner with with customers who are keen to innovate and and keen to to move quickly but one of the things that You know, I I also considered to be a privilege From a microsoft standpoint is that we you know, we do have a fantastic army of brilliant partners Who are also able to to help you if you'd like to get in touch with me directly my email address is down there at the bottom But I know that the edge serve team will also be Available to discuss any of what I've just mentioned I think that's probably it from me Thank you. Helena. Thank you very much and thank you omid So I believe everybody has a question button on their panel In the webinar controls So now's the time to post your questions if you have any for omid helena or myself Give you a couple of minutes to to let some of those come through I think that was very insightful from from both omid and helena It's interesting to To see To be from omid the approach Sounds like a repeatable approach of understanding business organization and What the core competency of each organization actually is? So we don't have any questions just a moment. I have a question actually from it. Um, it's just something that sprung to mind um When you're talking about what businesses do understanding what you do here And then letting that feed on to technology choices There's another way that you know, perhaps some of the people who work within the organization might might see that is that to some extent the technical choices Actually Creates their workflow and and you know on the day-to-day basis define what it is they do Not so much what the organization does but what they do in it, you know when they're sitting at their desk Um and consequently when you change things you change you you might end up doing Exactly the same activities, but with a slightly different tool sets and that has an impact in terms of staff workflow Um, I wondered whether you had any insight on on how you Unblock that as a potential pain point That's a great question. So I've I'm playing that back to you. That's a how do you land? Organizational change with technology And yes organization so Really bloody hard. I think is probably everyone's experience on this call um a couple of things that I think you need to have in place to make it successful One you need really strong sponsorship from whichever service or business area is changing So if you don't have the you know, say what you want about the way organizations are but still the kind of hierarchy of an organization has a role to play So, you know, chiefly get downwards Making sure that they understand what it is you're changing them. Why and what benefit? um investing So all business cases to to deliver any kind of technology or business change has has got to have a the requisite funding for change management so if that's Providing the capacity for training presentations road shows constantly communicating Branding whatever it is you want to do so making sure that's in place and that the project pays for that as well um And all the normal things like focusing on benefits So if you're talking about if you're changing the technology that will have a workflow impact There's got to be a reason you're doing it um, and so getting Your employees or whichever members of staff will be having to do something different to um understand those benefits And kind of replay them and a couple of kind of tangible practical things that we've I've done in the past and I've seen also here at Camden um having a change champion network really helpful So people who are just you know, want to be part of something can Helpful influences across the organization We've got that 200 of those at Camden and I found them really helpful um, that's one thing and then doing something like a day in the life of Where you take somebody who is you know, who's daily using a system or a way of working And you you kind of fill them or or have some kind of media that shows them how their journey and how they go from one One way of working to another and they're honest and reflective experience about that Some will be good. Some will be bad. So that's what I would suggest Sounds good. Thanks. I'll miss. Um, we've got a couple of questions through actually, uh, first one, um from kevin taylor um To omit, uh, what were the biggest challenges from a staffing slash organizational perspective? seen as an opportunity or a threat how best to win the hearts and minds I think you may have answered some of that just now, but Yeah, um, I think Sure, I think From an it point of view if there's kind of question is specific around, you know If we're sourcing in a different way or buying cloud um, so the challenges are fear um You know people have been doing things in particular ways So helping them Helping it stuff in particular see that their roles can evolve And not be removed But they can change and develop and actually when you when you kind of position it that way and people do a bit of reflection They would have seen that in their careers anyway. We've gone through cycles, haven't we in it? So it's about helping them understand that and that's The main way Excellent, thanks omit. Um and a question from nicola logan We are currently on a microsoft navigator journey and I wondered whether microsoft Follow a similar methodology when approaching the piece of work around the cloud operating model Perhaps that's a question for helena Yeah, that's a great question. So um And to be honest with you, it's not one that I uh have the answer to at my fingertips So I sit in a slightly different division, but certainly our cloud navigator Projects begin with a with a root and branch understanding of the capabilities of the organization So really understanding, you know, what each individual is doing from a business point of view. So You know, I was very impressed with what omit had to say and I think I think that we would be following a very very similar route And then helping you understand, you know, which bits of your IT infrastructure and It makes sense to move and and as omit pointed out, you know, where do you want to actually draw that line In terms of some work that you might be able to get third parties involved in and other areas You know where that doesn't make sense given the nature of the service that you're trying to deliver So I'll happily take further questions On that one offline And you know, if there's a kind of specific specific underneath that please just drop me a line Excellent Sorry, can I just can I just have one may I just have one one point just to echo something that omit said about his I think forgive me a changed champions or influencers influencers across the business I've been involved in a couple of quite substantial change management projects in the in the past and Sometimes we found that there are people who are the doubting thomas's forgive me And they can be quite influential and sometimes actually picking somebody who you think might be a bit of a blocker to become a champion Is tough in the beginning, but a really really You know, really good idea in terms of actually making sure that your project is successful I just wanted to chuck that one in there too Thanks So I don't think we've got any more questions. I don't know if anybody's currently typing one Um, but I think that's probably a wrap. Um, so Uh, I think we're just discussing here about email addresses, whether Um, uh, we'll issue them to participants, uh with the recording Um, so if you do want to get in touch with Helena, uh, we'll make sure that you've got the the means and uh, likewise to omit and myself Time with me. Yep Um, we do have a question. Uh, so andy crawford Um, thanks omit. That's the simplest approach to creating a target operating model that I've heard And are you willing to share the slides and or templates of the deliverables? No harm in asking is there I'm happy to have a conversation about it. Um, some of that is IP for kind of the development of the service here, but my personal view is actually We're all in this together in local authorities, so we should be sharing so if we can pick that offline See what I can do Absolutely sounds good. I wouldn't mind seeing those as well. Um, So with that, I think I think it's a wrap. Um, we'll be distributing a video version of this with audio Um, after, um, we it's all been processed. Um, but thank you very much for everyone for joining Thank you to our speakers omit and helena. Um, I wish you all a good afternoon