 Think Tech Hawaii, civil engagement lives here. Welcome to another episode of Pacific Partnerships in Education here on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Ethan Allen. With me today in the Think Tech Studios is our regular guest and contributor, Dr. Jojo Peter. Welcome, Jojo. Thank you very much, Ethan. Good to have you back here. Thank you. And we're going to be talking today. We're going to take a little bit of a side note off of education per se, and we're going to be looking at sort of more of a sort of political societal issue. That is, the conversation, it's an ongoing conversation about should Chuk secede from the federated states of Micronesia, and if so, what are the impacts of that? And maybe you can give us a little bit of background just to sort of frame this conversation out. FSM itself is a fairly new political entity, right? It is. It is a fairly new political entity that actually just come into official form in the early 80s. Of course, all of that was preceded by the trust territory of the Pacific Islands after World War II. Right. And that had been preceded by... Yeah. And the United States got itself one of those territories from the United Nation. One of the... But this territorial arrangement was also part of the United States' strategic interest. So it's basically one of those strategic trusts that... It was the only strategic trust among the other territorial arrangements in the world after World War II. So the area became known as the trust territory of the Pacific Islands. And it included Marianas, where Guam, and not Guam, but Northern Marianas, Saipan, and Rota, all the way to East and the Marshall Islands. So and everything in between Palau, Yap, Chuk, and Ponbe, at that time Ponbe also encompasses what is now Koshraya. So right off the bat in 1961, the Micronesians wanted to push for self-determination. And of course, Guam was already a territory of the United States, so it remains a territory until today. So the first one to go was the Northern Marianas. They negotiated a Commonwealth agreement with the United States, and that's one of the two commonwealths that the United States had, Puerto Rico being the other one. And Guam and like Amergenzamo are the ones in the Pacific for the territories for the United States. So therefore, the other nations, I mean, the other districts at that time, they were already working on a constitution that would bring all of the territories together under a nation. At that time, they were envisioning a nation. But so by the time that they voted on the ratification of the constitution, Palau didn't approve it. So Palau, in its own way, became a Republic of Palau. Marshall Islands didn't approve it, so it became a Republic of the Marshall Islands. And the ones that were at the countries, I mean, the states or territories, districts left in between Bonbe Yamp, Chuuk, and then they also created Koshrai to be another district at that time. So they had four districts that agreed to the constitution. So they became the... But you're saying this is almost sort of by default. It wasn't a purposeful gathering together, it wasn't historical. And that's one of the argument that the Chuuk state separation movement is making this like, you know, this is not a natural arrangement, so to speak, because you have districts, I mean, the groups of islands that don't speak the same language, they have different cultures. Chuuk has more walks. And there's Northwest and all of the other nations, I mean, all the other islands. So their argument is this, one of their argument is that, you know, it's not a natural arrangement, so to speak. Right. So therefore there's room for further, you know, fine-tuning of what a nation in the Pacific, that area should be. Yep. Yeah. In some sense, should be along with Palau, right, rather than with FSM. Well, you know, some people have made that argument or at least a reasoning that maybe they're a lot more closer to you, yeah. The other island of Yap and the island of Chuuk are a little bit more culturally and linguistically closer to each other than that. But again, those gray areas and the fine-line bud. So the Federated States of Micronesia came into, you know, it came into effect by in the 80s, and then comes the question of its relationship with the United States. Right. The compacts of free association. Right. So the things that were moving at the same time, the self-determination and then the terms of relationship with the United States, the United States at that time was pushing for the compact to be the defining terms, you know, of the self-determination. But the Micronesians wanted to make sure that they have a constitution in place that will bring the compact under the constitution as sort of like it doesn't dominate the sovereignty of each nation. So the United States negotiated three compact agreements, one with Palau, one with Federated States of Micronesia, and one with Republic of the Marshall Islands. And it became effective, the first compact in 1986. And Palau came much later in their own, yeah. But they're all roughly similar in general terms. The general terms are pretty much similar, yeah. The U.S. has pledged to defend these areas, but also One of those common agreements is that they should have what is called shared defense, that the United States will pledge to protect the islands from its enemies. And in return, that they will have access to water, air and land for the purpose of that shared defense. And of course, there's money that goes into each funding assistance to further help develop the islands. And on the other side of it, that the Micronesians, whoever is under the compact, can travel to the United States openly, you know, without FETA, establish residency and work and pay taxes like everybody else, which is what they're doing now. And, you know, live in the United States, as long as they're under the term of the compact, that they're allowed to do that. So there were other issues that came in question later on, especially with the Medicaid issue, where the Micronesians were eligible for, you know, the safety net programs. And then that changed later on under the Welfare Reform Act of 1996. Which the Micronesians would argue that then that means they're changing your terms of assistance or what is it we are eligible for and discriminate against Micronesians as, you know, illegally present when we are in fact under the compact legally present and contributing taxpayers. So that's a complicated issue that hasn't worked itself up. Now, all along, Chuk has always tried, you know, various times before, you know, during the very first administration of the federal states of Micronesia, to have a separate movement. Before the one region, one region in Chuk state, the most populated region, Fai Chuk region, wanted to have separated a separate state from Chuk. And that went on for years and it didn't go anywhere. So recently, the legislature commissioned a group to look at other potential terms or look at potential relationship change if there needs to be any that would better serve the Chukese people. And the commission went out and they did their work. And they suggested and they recommended to the legislature that it should be put in front of the voters an opportunity to vote for an independent Chuk, an independent nation from the federated states of Micronesia. And that's where we are now. So there are a lot of questions in terms of, like, so what's going to happen to, if Chuk votes to be separated from the federated states of Micronesia, what does that mean for the Chukese people who are now under the compact? Right, exactly. Because the reason why they're here in Hawaii and other places in the U.S. is under the compact of free association. Right, which if Chuk was a nation they would not have. Right, right. So for a while, the proponents of the separation movement claimed that we can negotiate with the United States for another compact between the U.S. and then what would then be a Chuk republic, for example, whatever that we call. Now, there were some points where we were just kind of guessing. Some people said that they were guessing because they didn't know what the U.S. position was on it. Although some people come out very strong saying that the United States will not. Right. And then later on this summer, and I was in Chuk this summer, later on this summer the ambassador for the United States to FSM came to Chuk and he held a meeting. A public meeting, an open forum, and basically said, while the United States will not interfere with the sovereignty or the decision for sovereignty, the sovereignty decision of the people of Chuk, he can say that the United States will most likely not negotiate a compact with a separate Chuk. And claiming that the compact of free association treaties or agreements were sort of animals of the Cold War. And they were born out of the need, mutual need for the nations and the United States at during that time in the 80s when the Cold War was at its peak. And the logic is that the absence of that climate, which perceived to be now, does not lend itself to the United States giving out any more of such agreement. So basically saying that, yes, you can separate yourself from the Federation, but we will not get into an agreement with them. Yeah. And it's a very tricky issue there. I mean, lots and lots of different complications. There are implications for the people from Chuk who are now living in the U.S. too. That's one complication that has to be dealt with and explain how that's going to work. Since the compacts were with FSM of four states. So basically we hold an FSM passport. So what would happen to do the Chukis who are holding FSM passports, if that thing comes into effect? But again, the argument on the proponent side is that it will be a process. You need to work out the process. How is that going to affect that? It'll take a discussion with all parties, FSM, Chuk and the United States. In theory, those things will eventually have to be decided because there will be a lot of people in Limbo who status will be in Limbo. Exactly. We're going to look into this whole business more deeply. Right now, I'm told we're going to have to take a brief break. So Dr. Jojo Peter is here. We're talking about Chuk separation from the federated states of Micronesia, this planned move and how it has come about. And when we come back, we'll talk a little bit about what its impacts might be if it comes to be. We'll be back in one minute. We're back here on Pacific Partnerships in Education. I'm your host Ethan Allen. You're on Think Tech Hawaii. Dr. Jojo Peter is with me today. And we're talking about the shows I can title Go Your Own Way. It's referring to Chuk's plans to separate itself from the federated states of Micronesia. We talked a little bit in the first half about the history of this, how Micronesia had come into being, how the relationship with the various partners and players, history of colonialism and all that. And now we want to look a little bit sort of looking forward. If this did happen, what are the impacts on Chuk, what are the impacts on the rest of the FSM and what are the impacts on the U.S.? Also, just to back out a little bit. Another component of this is that comes 2023, a large portion of the funding, the one, the part that the United States give direct funding to the nations. That's part of the compact agreement will go away. Or at least that will be the end of it. So I know that there is a commission that is looking into how this is going to work out and reviewing progress, past progress, and start looking into the future of that. So that also worked into the argument by the proponents that they said, listen, come 2023, all of the compact money will be dried up. We haven't really seen any major developments under that. Or they say that it's open to question what Chuk has already gotten out of this arrangement per the funding. Because the whole idea of the compacts of free association with these nations who have these compacts are going to build themselves up, become very self-sustaining, independently functional governments, develop their own industries, their own sources of revenue. And too large that really has not happened, right? Yes, they continue to rely on the compact as a major part of their funding. And there's a whole other aspect, too, that some Chukies feel they have gotten short shrift within the FSM, right? They are the most popular state, but they do not get, apparently, at least, their fair share of the resources from the compact, right? That's one of the major arguments that the commissioner, I mean, or at least the commission for these separation movements, have advanced that at least the Chukies should have a fair shot of going at it by themselves, you know, instead of being, you know, connected into this federation where certain arrangements have to be made that they feel does not favor the Chuk people, at least per capita, in terms of the divisions of the funding. But as you say, I mean, there will be vast complications just in terms of where sort of how people can travel among the islands, right? If suddenly, if Chuk were now an independent, let us say, an independent republic or whatever, how, you know, yes, that they would have to sort of set up their own process for immigration and all that kind of thing. What happens just current Chukies, passport holders who are not one Chuk at this point? Do they now still belong to the FSM? Are they still citizens of Chuk? Yes. Yeah, and those are the parts and discussions that actually concerns a lot of Chukies people, especially those of us who are living outside. And they said, you know, like, what's going to happen to us? You know, actually, we'll be undocumented in a way because you're not going to be tied to any country after that. But again, they're saying the claim is that it will be a part of a long discussion between them. And it's going to be complicated because even there's a certain terms, important terms of that comeback that will have to be figured out. For example, this, the all shared defense part, right? Because the agreement is that the United States will continue to have its share of control over the, you know, land, sea and air in perpetuity under the compact in order to fulfill that shared defense thing. Chukies, the part where, you know, at least the proponents of the separation movement will say, well, listen, you know, we're separated from the FSM. We're no longer, you know, obligated to that part of them because we're not under any compact. Because then that took us out of the compact because we then are removed from the FSM. And the United States has basically said, if you remove them from the FSM, you are not under the compact. We're not going to negotiate a compact with you. Therefore, what does that mean in terms of the, you know, the military strategic defense? Then there's a hole in it because then your Chuk has a bigger part of the geographical, you know, territory in that nation. Sure. And some groups, for instance, like China could come in and try to make. And China has already been, you know, matter of fact, as we speak right now, China is in process of completing one of the biggest complexes in Chuk. And that's the government complex. It hasn't been built under the compact. And right now, it's coming up really fast. It's going to be the main, kind of like the state capital here, where you have all of the functioning, major functioning branches of the government there. That's all being built by a Chinese company? That's all being built by a Chinese government here, not just in Chuk, in all of the, in many, many of the areas in, you know, in the islands. Right. And particularly given the current Chinese, how do you want to put this, movements in the South China Sea, where they have built their runways and airports on these, what had just been uninhabited coral reefs before, what has to be concerned that there's an expansionist policy here, right, that they're trying to extend their influence in many ways. And the Silk Road, well, it's just a thing. Well, you know, so there's no hiding it, the Chinese are coming into the area. The United States has to figure out what its position is on this. And the American Asians have already been fully aware of what the Chinese have done and what they can do, because the Chinese made it very clear that they will support, you know, not this movement. They haven't been out in the open to say that they have supported this movement. Also, there's some talk that they said, you know, Chinese name has been mentioned, you know, China has been mentioned in the back of the, in the background of these discussions. But, you know, that, that's a major, it is a major event. So, yeah, that's a huge factor that cannot be ignored. Yeah. And, I mean, this would really, this would have tremendous impacts on, I mean, sort of every aspect of life, right? I mean, trade would change suddenly. Well, my biggest concern right now is almost all of the budget for education comes out of the compact funding. And I, like, I was there this summer, the Education Department, and they're just, just starting to corner on a lot of the big problems now. It's a, they have a lot of challenge, but they're working very hard. And they, they are, you know, dedicated to making the changes. And the funding has to be there to support these things. And as we speak, another round of that CHEMCO meeting is going on and trying to figure out how much money, you know, will go through certain projects that, you know, that, that the and the rest of the Micronesian people need along with the Marshall Islands. So, again, you know, comes 2023, there's that other thing that's looming in the background that sort of exasperate, you know, this need to do something. And this commission's idea of doing something is like, okay, our solution to this is that let's get out of it now, or at least get out of the Federation. But then there's, you know, there's the constitutional question, right, the Federation that basically said it would be a move equal to treason, treason, if Chuk's a seat from the, from the nation, right, and that it will file is the Constitution of that they agreed to, right, in the beginning of the, the formation of the nation. So yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of interesting questions has its own history of being very, not being a sort of a unified, stratified country, right? I mean, Chuk, as I understand it from Hesel's work, was basically a small collection. I mean, it was collections, little villages, basically, basically. Frank Eisel pointed out that, that Chuk has never had any kind of overarching kind of ruler or control, unlike, unlike, you know, when they were, they were under, under the non-marquee system, and before that, the Southerners system. Right, most of these other islands have had villages that then cooperate to some extent or collaborate under some island ruler, and maybe some, both islands get together under even a regional head, and that never happened in Chuk. It has this reputation of being very, you know, factionalized kind of thing. So one understands that now being, being a state within a nation is a very sort of foreign concept, right, to a lot of people in Chuk, basically. That's, that's one argument, yeah, that's one argument, and they said, you know, the FSM thing is not a natural arrangement, because, of course, you have all of this sort of like, right, group that have been put together to, you know, form a nation. Right. Language is not there, you know, the, a common language, so of course, speak English to, to conduct business, but, you know, again, you know, that people who are forward-looking say, you know, listen, you know, we have only been doing this for only so many years, you know, it's, figure out how we can make it work instead of trying to, you know, you know, rip it apart, you know, so early. Exactly, there may be, maybe ways within the current structure to make things work better and redistribute, reallocate funding now, and work out the United States has a vested interest in keeping somewhat the status quo there, and maybe we'll have to, to, to extend or modify. And I think, I, I think the United States is being careful not to interfere into any kind of, you know, internal sovereign, absolutely, you know, decisions that the people of the, the islands have to make by themselves. At the same time, you know, it's also watching, you know, with us, it's being unfolded, and they, they, they make the comments when they feel they need to make the comments, so. It's a very complex situation. I appreciate you being on the show here to help us clear up some issues and, and surface some good, good material for discussion. Go, Joe, very nice to have you here again, and I hope you'll join us on our next episode of Pacific Partnerships in Education here on Think Tech Hawaii.