 So while we're finishing setting up, I'll just do a quick introduction to Dr. Mark River. We have a few people online as well, listening in and this will be recorded. There'll be time for a few questions at the end, so keep that in mind as we're listening to Mark. Who's going to tell us specifically about GSD cards, the facility, but compress as well, and chichotron radiation in the geosciences were brought over for coming. Mark studied geology and geophysics at Harvard and got his PhD at UC Berkeley and has been involved in geosciences at chichotron radiation courses his entire career has been involved in developing X-ray microchemography as one example and has been involved in the building of GSD cards in about 1994. He's now in addition to being a research professor at University of Chicago, he's currently director of CARS, which stands for consortium for advanced radiation sources, and GSD card is part of CARS and so he'll give us the details. Thanks Mark. It's really nice to be here. Thanks a lot for having me. So I'm going to set up a quick outline of my talk, so first I'm going to give a brief introduction to what synchrotron radiation is for those of you who may not be familiar with it. A little bit of the history of support from NSF for earth sciences at synchrotron and then talk about the two facilities that Steve just mentioned, GSD cards and compress, and then finish with Thoughts for the Future where there's a safe plan upgrade as to synchrotron at ARGA. So synchrotron radiation is the electromagnetic radiation that is emitted principally from giga-electron volt electron storage ring. So as the electrons go around the ring, they get electromagnetic radiation and that's what we're using in our science. So it's not the particles themselves, but the x-rays or other electromagnetic radiation they give off. And the characteristics of synchrotron radiation is that it covers a very broad spectral range from actually beyond the IR up to very hard x-rays. The source is very bright, which means two things. The x-rays come out highly collimated into a very small opening angle, and the source itself is very small, meaning that if you're imaging that source, you can focus it very well. It's down to a very small spot. So the collimated means got high intensity, lots of photons in a small angle. The small source means we can focus on it. The polarization of the radiation is tunable and different sources have linear, circular or tunable polarization. We often treat it as a DC continuous source, but it's not at the pulse source. And for instance, at the advanced photon source, the pulses are about 100 picoseconds long, which is about a centimeter at the speed of light, and there are about five million of them at that. So you can treat it, you know, if you're doing an experiment that takes seconds, it's like a DC source, but we can do time-resolved experiments, pulse-probe, where we say hit it with a laser, and then 100 picoseconds later, we'll get to see what happens to the target. And the source is partially coherent. It's much less coherent than a laser, but the coherence is important than the new source that I'll talk about at the end. The upgrade will be, you know, 100 times more coherent than what we have now. The radiation is coming out of these relativistic electrons in the storage ring. The critical parameter here is this thing called gamma, and one over gamma. And gamma scales at the energy of the machine, times about 2,000. So one over gamma is approximately the full width half-max opening angle of the supertron radiation. And there's another parameter, which is called the critical energy, which is just half-powerpoint, half the x-rays are above that energy, half are below, and that scales as the square of the storage ring, energy linearly with the magnetic field of the source. So in the U.S. right now, DOE-funded sources, DOE-Basic Energy Science sources, there are three supertrons. The advanced light source at Berkeley, which has an energy of 1.9 GeV, so that's the low-energy, soft-dex-ray, vacuum ultraviolet machine. NSLS-2 at Brookhaven is a 3 GeV sort of medium-energy machine. And the advanced low-cost source at Argonne is a 7 GeV machine, and you see how gamma goes with these. So at the APS, what's called the bending magnet, the opening angle is about 73 microagens, meaning that 60 meters from the source, the X-ray is about 4 millimeters tall. So, you know, it's way more collimated than this laser magnet. And the critical energy there is about 20 KgZ. So it's a hard X-ray machine. You have lots of photons out to 100 KgZ and more. So how are X-rays produced? Very simply, this is your beam of relativistic electrons. This is what we would call a bending magnet, just a dipole magnet, as the electron goes around that bend, it emits radiation in a fan, like the headlight on a train sweeping around the corner. Small opening angle in the vertical, that's that one over gamma, but a big angle in the horizontal. We also have in the straight sections of the storage ring, periodic magnetic devices. This is a device called an undulator. And as the electron goes through there, it goes back and forth, back and forth, and the radiation from this pole, this pole, this pole interferes constructively and destructively, which leads to two different things. First of all, the beam comes out highly collimated in both directions. You know, a quarter of the magnitude more collimated than the bending magnet. It also has peaks in energy. So the bending magnet beam is a white spectrum, very smooth. The undulator has strong peaks and then no X-rays in between. And so this is a figure of merit called brightness, which is just the intensity for solid angle divided by the size of the source and as a function of time. So X-ray tubes have not changed much. And I would point out that this is 18 orders of magnitude. So X-ray tubes are down here. Bending magnets are up here. Some devices called wigglers, which is like a bunch of magnetic magnets in a row, are here. And the undulators that I just mentioned are here. And yet another generation of sources called free electron lasers are up here. But I'm going to be talking about undulators and magnetic magnets. This is the first, this was the national synchrotron light source at Brookhaven National Lab. And it came into operation, this is the X-ray room here in 1985. And it was the first dedicated synchrotron light source in the world. In other words, an accelerator built specifically to generate synchrotron radiation as opposed to one built to do high energy physics and the synchrotron people were parasitic. And I'll show you on the next slide. It was also the location of the first geoscience beam line. And that was with NSL. And this machine shut down in 2014. And a new machine at Brookhaven called NSL S2 was built. The first geoscience beam line at NSL S were an X-ray micro probe and that's where I worked from 1983 to 1993. And that was funded by NSF EAR instrumentation facilities, Dan Wilesh. And it was built as an X-ray micro probe user facility. So people from all over the country came to do experiments on this facility. And it was funded by NSF EAR until about 1993. And then the support shifted to DOE geosciences, still run by the University of Chicago, but not through NSF anymore. There was also another organization called CHIPR, which was a Center for High Pressure Research, that was Stony Brook Carnegie and Princeton largely. And that funded geoscience research on three beam lines at NSL. A diamond anvil cell, a multi-angle, with Dave Mow, a multi-angle press with Don Weidner, and infrared spectroscopy with Russ Temple. This was not a user facility. This was something where it was funded for that group to use, but they weren't mandated to provide access to the larger community. And that ran from about 1991 to 2002. These science and technology centers had a five-year lifetime renewable one, and they did, and then that ended. So the next generation, the NSLs were built to use X-rays from bending magnets and weakness, because the potential of undulators hadn't yet been realized. But by the mid-80s, that changed, and people realized we really needed to build machines to use undulators, because they are so many orders of magnitude brighter. So planning began for this new machine at Argon, called the Advanced Photon Source. And that started in construction in 1990 and began operating in 1995. And to take advantage of that, in the Earth Sciences, Joe Smith, Jamie Smith at the University of Chicago, formed this Center for Advanced Radiation Sources to build multiple beam lines at the ATS, one of which was to be in geoscience, but another in structural biology, and another in chemistry and material. He did a really good job of organizing the geoscience community to build a science case, and also to help design what it was they wanted built there. So in geosoil and viral cars got funding from NSF EAR back in about 1994 to, from both EAR, and I should say about 25% from DOE Geosciences to construct and operate one of the sectors at the ATS. A sector there consists of both a bending magnet beam line and an undulating beam line. And it was designed specifically to be a user facility with multiple beam lines and multiple techniques for Earth Sciences. That's Joe Smith, this is the ATS, and GMP cars is located over here at the sector. And about a little bit later, Shipper ended and was encouraged to form a new consortium that would operate user facilities like the ones that Carnegie and Stony Brook had been running, but as the user facility, as user facility. And so this was, you know, you can view it as the, compressed as the successor to Shipper, and it started around 2002. And its mission is more limited than Jesse cars. It's mostly for mineral physics, in other words, high pressure research. That's not strictly true, but it can practice mostly the truth. And it runs fractions of beam lines at this new NSLX2 ring at Brookhaven, at the advanced light source, and at the ATS as user facility. So at the ATS, it's funded, as I said, by DOE, Basic Energy Sciences. In other words, they run the accelerator and they run about half of the beam lines. The other half of the beam lines are run by groups like us with external funds. There are about 66 beam lines that can run at the same time, and then 35 sectors where, as I said, sectors both of any magnet and undulator. Three of those sectors are run by the University of Chicago. Sector 13, Jesse cars. Sector 14, which is funded by NIH and for structural biology, time resolved, macro molecular crystallography. And then finally sector 15, which is funded by NSF chemistry and material science. And also all three operated as national user facilities. In other words, they're not facilities for the University of Chicago. And it also, there are two beam lines at the APS that are partly run by compressed. And ChemMac cars and Jesse cars are the only two sectors at the APS where NSF is providing the operating funds to run. Sector 15 just received word that they're going to get a $14 million capital improvement to double their undulator beam lines, to build a second undulator. We run four, we have four simultaneously running stations. Three on the undulator, two on the bending magnet. Only two of these three can run at the same time. We give out all our time through the APS general user program. We get our funding from NSF EAR, the lion's share. There's some from DOE Geosciences and there's been some capital equipment money from NASA, but no operating support. We've got 11 scientific staff for postdocs and for support staff. We've been operating since 1996. And we have more than 800 user visits per year. People that are coming to the beam lines do an experiment. Typically they say one to three days, five days would be unusual. And we're producing over 150 publications a year. These are the techniques that we provide. So there's an X-ray micro probe for doing trace element analysis and micro X-ray spectroscopy and micro diffraction, diffractometer. These three stations are on the undulator. These two stations are on the bending magnet. There's a diffractometer where we largely do mineral surface interface scattering. So what happens in the first few atomic layers of a mineral when it's exposed to a solution containing a contaminant? Then we have the high pressure program in this station that has both a laser heated diamond anvil cell to go to very high pressures. When we mostly do diffraction, some emission spectroscopy and then we have a multi-anvil press that contain a much larger sample, not to a higher pressure. On the bending magnet, we've got a small version of this multi-anvil press. We've got a diamond cell that mostly does, what's called green one spectroscopy, so inelastic laser scattering and commuted micro tomography. And then finally on a bending magnet, another bending magnet station, we have a program to do diamond anvil cell, mostly single crystal diffraction. And also we can do interface and powder diffraction. So I'm just going to give a couple of examples. So this is what we can do on the micro probe. So our micro probe is unique for all part X-ray micro probes in that we can get down to the sulfur k absorption. So we can do sulfur spectroscopy, as well as trace element imaging all the way to the periodic table except for elements much lighter than sulfur. And so this is a sort of a megapixel map where you're seeing not just the total sulfur concentration, but in green and red, the speciation. So you can tell the difference between sulfide and sulfate. And this is important if you're trying to interpret sulfur isotopes in rocks trying to figure out is this difference in the primary water chemistry or something due to geochemical alteration after. At high pressure, this is an example of the kinds of experiments we can do into group's core conditions. So this is looking studies of what's the light element in the core and what happens if you put iron and carbon in a diamond sand bill cell and heat them up to 5,000 kelvin and through pressures of 2 megabytes. And so looking at the stability of Fe3C versus Fe7C3 and metallic iron. And so the conclusion of this study was that this Fe7C3 could be a presence in the inner core in equilibrium with metallic iron. So these are very challenging experiments at these temperature and pressure conditions. And to do that, we only have a very small sample so we need a very high intensity focused X-ray beam to see what's going on. So these are the diffraction peaks that we're measuring and then when it melts that you lose the diffraction peak and you get this diffuse scattering signal. This was a recent study not done at synthetically high pressure but this is looking at inclusions in diamonds and this was the first time that I7 was found in nature. So this was I7 trapped inside a diamond that was carried up from the man. It looks like pretty good evidence that there was liquid water present in the mantle at the location where this diamond is. It's a pure phase of water. It crystallized I7 presumably on its way up when it passed into the I7 stability. That's all the time I have to talk about the science we're doing right now. Let me just talk a little bit about the funding. So at GemiCars our funding comes largely from NSF or science instrumentation facilities. It's about 2.8 million a year and we're in year three of a five-year award. We had been co-funded by DOE Geosciences to the tune of about 25% ever since our inception and it was viewed I think as a model partnership between NSF and DOE and it was about 900K a year. But in August of 2018 basically I think the DOE science programs were told that they should enter their facility support and only fund science. On the other hand it said that he would be interested not in funding operations but in funding technique development where science proposes and would be able to entertain up to three of those as something like 300K a year which would get us back. And so we followed up on that. We've already submitted our first one and it's been funded and the second one has been submitted we're waiting to hear. So we're hopeful that we're going to get back to the DOE funding. There's a little bit about user funding, right? So a large fraction of our users are NSF funding and these individual NSF awards are key to the science that's done at the facility, right? We wouldn't be able to do very much science unless these users were bringing in great ideas bringing in graduate students and postdocs and so their funding is key to what we do. And over about 66% of our users are grad students and postdocs, right? Typically the senior faculty are not the ones coming to the center. Now switch gears a little bit and talk about COMPRAT. So COMPRAT operates a number of programs and projects and I'll just go through these quickly and focus on the more important one. So it's a big rule. So they operate half of a B-line at the advanced light source for diamond anvil cell diffraction and that's a sub-award to Quentin Williams and UC Santa Cruz. They operate half of a vending magnet B-line at the APS for multi-anvil work and that's a sub-award to Don Leitner and Matt Whitaker at Stony Springs. They operate a smaller fraction of a multi-anvil B-line at MSLS 2, maybe 20%. They operate about half of a B-line. They help us operate one of the jetty card B-lines where we were only doing surface and interface gathering there. We didn't have the staff to help to do diamond cells. COMPRAT has provided two staff that let us do diamond anvil cell single crystal diffraction. Then they fund an infrared B-line at MSLS 2, 50% of an infrared amount of an inelastic X-ray scattering and MOSFOWR B-line at the APS. Those are the B-line projects they have. The other one is they help fund our gas loading facility at Jesse Cards because we do a lot of gas loading for people other than Jesse Cards for the rest of the community. There's a project to develop multi-anvil cell assemblies at Arizona and a number of smaller... These programs here are things that might only have a lifetime of a couple of years. There are projects to try to generate new infrastructure or new outreach. The other thing that COMPRAT does is they run an annual meet and bring in the whole community goes to this and it's where we talk about what are the directions for the facility. There's the chair of the COMPRAT's facilities committee right now. I think by the end of my current term I will have been the chair half of the existence of COMPRAT and this meaning I should say is important for Jesse Cards. We go there and we don't have money to run our own annual meeting so we sort of piggyback on this annual meeting that COMPRAT holds. They also fund a number of workshops. This is just an example of one that was held in the ACS recently so COMPRAT has funding that's dedicated to funding workshops on either training on existing techniques or exploratory workshops on future techniques. Say a little bit about the relationship between the two because NSF is funding them both NSF EAR is funding them both so we've worked very closely together for many years. As I said I will have been a member or chair of this facilities committee like at the time and our high pressure users are a very large contingent of the people who attend the COMPRAT meeting. COMPRAT I already mentioned is funding two projects right now at Jesse Cards and we're going to at NSF urging in our proposals in our renewal proposals we've received three years ago or so. They suggested that we contemplate merging the two organizations. We're going to hold a breakout session at this upcoming annual meeting just to say no. Yeah you know when we went to visit NSF leadership of COMPRAT and me and went to visit NSF last fall it looked like they were no longer pushing for this. I don't know if you realize that the cons probably did outweigh the pros but we're going to still have we want to hear what the community has to say about. Okay and now I'm going to finish up the talk talking about the future of a major project at the APS. So there's a big it's called the APS upgrade and it's what's called a multi-bend aftermath upgrade. Basically what it means is they're going to have an entire accelerator which is 1100 magnets. I mean it's 1.1 kilometers of close-packed magnets and it turns out there's a new design where you can increase the brightness of the ring by making the electron being much smaller if you do like a hundred fold increase and I'll show that in a later slide. So this means the APS is down for one year starting sometime in 2022. It became an official DOE project what they call critical decision 2 this year and it's got an $815 million budget which is more than 50% more than it cost to build the APS originally. But it's going to have this enormous gain in science because it means that we can put 100 times more X-rays in the same focal spot size that we have today or we can make the beam 10 times smaller in both directions with the same number of to take advantage however we're going to have to replace our beam line optics mirrors and monochromators to take advantage of that increase in brightness. If your mirror has slow bearers and it's wobbles and it's not perfect it doesn't preserve that brightness and it's a real challenge because the beam is 10 micron 50 meters away and so your slow bearers have to be less than 10 microns divided by 50 meters which is nano and we have to get better detectors. So this is where MSF support is important because the APS isn't going to do all of this for the partner beam lines like us they'll do it for their own beam lines to the extent that the project has money for that. There is a synergy between mirrors and monochromators for those others for the other uses like it's been used to be a lead weight project. Yes, we all would go to the station vendors to buy these things which is self-potentially a problem because there's at the same time the APS is developed I should say right now the European equivalent of the APS, the ESRF and Grenovo just shut down to do the same thing right so they're buying all their optics right now and then the spring eight the one in Japan is going to do the same thing. I think there's money to be made and there are vendors who are pushing to be able to get their metrology good enough to meet this demand so I don't anticipate a crisis but it might be of some delay you know already mirrors like they might take a year to do this. Okay so this is just illustrates this is what the electron beam now not the x-ray beam but the electron beam in the APS accelerator looks like this right now it's a pan chain so it's like 10 microns vertically and 250 microns horizontally. This new lattice new way of arranging the magnets changes it to look like this so it's essentially now a round source so when you try to image this onto your sample you can focus the beam really nicely in the vertical the blurry focus in the horizontal because it's so big but once we do this we can focus it very well in both directions so on that figure of merit that I showed you today we're in this 10 to the 20th down 10 to the 19th range we're going to be up here and this is a plot that just shows more sources comparing for instance these are the undulators at Brookhaven which is a very low emittance machine not as good as the APS will be but you can see that and this black line is the APS today so the NSLS-2 is a preferred source below 20 kVP but with the upgrade the APS will be the preferred source over the whole energy range from 5 to 100 so a few examples of what is it we're going to be able to do with this upgraded source the first and I have another slide on this is peripascal studies in the diamond we've already got the technology to push the static pressure up by a factor of 5 but the size of the sample that's under that high pressure condition is sub-micron and so we need to be able to focus the beam down to sub-micron it's going to adjust the measure of the stuff that's at high pressure for spectroscopy and we're being able to push right now our micro probe is at about 2 micron spatial resolution we're going to be able to get to sub 500 nanometers probably so 300 nanometers micro probe and to do these experiments with greatly enhanced surface and interface we do a lot of this work that we do on surface and interface is the beam has to come in and graze into the mineral surface which means it's spread out which means you need a big crystal so that really limits the kind of minerals we can study because we need to be able to find some mineral that makes 2 millimeters, 3 millimeters crystal and that throws out a lot of a lot of minerals just don't make crystal like that but if we can get it down to 300 microns or 100 microns it now opens up so this is a illustration of what we've done today so this is a diamond anvil cell and conventionally you would squeeze the sample between this diamond and this diamond but instead what we do is put 2 nano diamonds in here and the sample just goes in between those so it's like a double stage and with that we've gotten gold to one carapace gallon the only thing that was in order to get a good enough scattering signal to see it it had to be gold or in this case it was really very high density, very high atomic number material and scatter X-rays really well but we want to be able to do this with SIO2 and for that you need to be able to put many more X-rays into that so we're just going to finish with Carl, he's sending a few slides, a couple slides on what compress what they might, the directions they might want to go to the teacher one of which is dynamic compression the high pressure experiment that we've been doing at the synchrotron have largely been static high pressure, right, either squeeze something in a diamond cell squeeze something in a multi-animal trap a lot of important natural processes are not static, they are dynamic collisions and also with dynamic compressions you can get to states that you can't reach with that right, so if you want, even if it's only for a microsecond you can get to pressure and temperature regimes that are not accessible by dynamic compression facilities around the country they they range from laser facilities to the national efficient facility at Livermore and Omega laser an electromagnetic pulse machine called the Z-Machine at San Dia there is one B-My at the APS that does dynamic compression both they have both gas guns where they can shoot a gun at a target and hit it with an X-ray and intense lasers that they can pulse and do dynamic compression and then finally the Linux coherent light source which is a free electron laser at FLAC has a facility for doing high-powered laser pulse experiments you know with a visible or IR laser to compress the sample and then an X-ray laser to probe the sample and you know these are facilities where the earth science community has only just barely gotten involved and we could have a much bigger print audience I'm not sure who funds Omega that might be NSF I'm not sure these are all funded by well does MNSA they fund that end station so they're not user facilities except Omega well FLAC is right you can write a proposal to do and there is a person there who has earth science background who works on that station area just to finish up so I think Summary, Synchrotron sources are critical resources for geochemistry and geophysics but there's a large part of the community that are using these today NSF Earth Sciences has a strong history of partnership with DOEPES in facilitating earth science access to these powerful machines and the APS upgraded promises for more decades to come to your research thank you Mark so we have users who want to come and take advantage of the facilities right as a proposal for time but they do not pay a user fee to access the instrument, is that true? they pay just their travel and the cost it takes them to get there well that's a little different from many other facilities where they do pay user fees I guess I'm wondering what is the rationale for it's been a subject of discussion with NSF historically it was basically laid to rest quite a few years ago when DOE doesn't want to have people charge it it's not their policy that you have the time actually comes from the DOE if we were a conventional outside partner we would get 75% of the time to do what we want and we would have to give 25% to the general user community as it is we give 100% of the time DOE is part of an APS Upgrader obvious that you need to do them but during the course of your last award you made some upgrades and new developments I just wondered how you decide what to do both in hardware come from the staff or the users it basically comes from a very formal process but it comes from interactions of the staff with the users the users comment and our staff typically are working with them what do they wish they could do that they can't we have an internal and if it's something that's going to take a big chunk of money then it goes in the next proposal we always have a forward-looking project in our funding proposal it's a relatively small part of the upgrade mesh the next time there will be a re-competition for who runs the lab are there any complications there on the horizon how much longer does Chicago's LLC have you know I don't have that number on top of my head it wasn't that long ago that it was re-competed but time flies and I don't remember if that was five years ago I don't think that's probably a very big issue because LLC is is important in implementing and effectively managing the lab but they aren't the ones who make decisions like do we upgrade the AES that's BES if the tell proposes a manager that shouldn't affect the sign no, not at all and the management for instance that Brookhaven has changed over the course of the year certainly doesn't affect the sign users demand how it needs to significantly oversubscribe the undulator beam line for the diamond anvil cell is like a factor whereas the vending magnet it might only be 20% oversubscribe diamond anvil cell now we've got to the point where users get one day I mean almost nobody gets more than a day which puts a lot of pressure on the users and on staff that you know even a few hours of downtime we have to make a trade-off between if you give people too little time they won't get defined and then they have to come back Mark so compress which is in its fourth five-year award is an EAR facility and yet there are several more and in almost 20 years now that we've had compress as a community distortion those sub-award facilities come and go so often so could you tell us briefly how facilities under compress are created for sunset sure so as chair of the facilities committee every year just before the AGU meeting we request reports from each of the facilities that tell us how did they do what are they planning to do in the next years at a budget and then we review those and well facilities committee reviews those and makes recommendations to the executive committee which is the decision making in compress that have been cases where we have some facilities there was a diamond anvil self-program at the NFLS too that did not appear to be competitive and was we decided not to and the facility to add single crystal diffraction at the APS was a new facility that don't have been running for were responded from proposal so we suppress solicits proposal for new facility and for new other kinds of projects they have an infrastructure education which solicits smaller proposals for development the facilities are competed annually they are and then of course they are more seriously competed when compressed within its renewal because then it's not just the compressibility committee it's the peer reviewer who are passing judgment proposals to describe the advances you will be making general terms of that questions you could have what are the big scale questions that you have gotten to now because of this technology I think one example is going to much higher pressure we can get now pretty valiant effort but not impossible we can now say what's happening we can't get to the condition also can but you will that's what I was saying with this compound diamond one of the research areas that I personally supervise is computed microchromography looking at 3D microstructure and we're now beginning to do that in real time be able to do time results full tomography data set every five seconds without looking at older facts be able to push that time resolution do you think how pressure do you be able to go to we have had success quite good success in getting NASA to invest in new technology so one of the things that we did back around 2012 was we took our undulator beeline and we built two undulators so it can run 100% of the time while we're doing the diamond and NASA paid a third of that which was like 700,000 we have current NASA funding for that's aimed at developing technology for sample return because this is a great place to bring up NASA where we have not had success in getting NASA to support operation so they really don't have a program I wish they did but we have had a lot of investigators who have recently learned about the development that makes the scale more of a computer and or not is that going to have an influence on your science that you can do that's a good question one of the things that's happening even today but it will have even more with the idea of upgrade is we've got this flood of data we've got detectors I mean one day you get 5 pairs of data and it's getting beyond you can't just send users home with that they don't have the resources to be able to handle that so we need to be able to do it outside whether it's or is a good question because the whole model of the way that DOE super good facility works is you submit a proposal and you get time a few months later and you don't turn around in real time but as they retire older machines some of those are good enough for what we we don't need 30,000 cores we probably be fine with 1,000 so yes data management data handling is a big issue good thing is that it's not just just them and some people are already using the facilities for that some of them have hit the data problems before we