 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. In the first part of the interview that I conducted with the leader of the opposition in the Chhattisgarh Legislative Assembly, Sri Bhuvaneshwar, I beg your pardon, Sharan Singh Dev, we discussed what could be the Congress's strategy to fight against led by Dr. Raman Singh, which has been in power continuously for almost 15 years. And in this, the second part of the interview, we look at other issues. You are aware that on the 25th of May 2013, possibly the biggest ever incident of his kind, 31 people were killed. Among them was Mahindra Karma Ji, Vidyacharan Shukla Ji, Nand Kumar Patel Ji. Three of the tallest, the tallest Congress leaders. People are speculating how it all happened. But I want to link this with, in what way is the strategy of the Congress Party and the Bharti Chhattis Party different when it comes to looking at what you describe as Nuxalites, what are described as Mao Badis, what are described in the Home Ministries to cause as left-wing extremist, Charambampanthi. Mahindra Karma was one of the moving forces together with Dr. Raman Singh of the Salva Judam, which is supposed to be like a vigilante army. People say these are local people protesting, but other Supreme Court has clearly said they are illegal. This is like a parallel police force. But now new forms and new versions of the Salva Judam exist. So I am asking you a long question and a detailed question. Is there anything different between the way the Congress Party and the Bharti Chhattis Party look at what you might describe as Nuxalism, Maoism, left-wing extremism in Chhatisgarh, especially in the Basta region? Yes. We started from the Jiram Ghati massacre that is 25th of May 2013, where 31 people were killed. I am very clear on that. It was not Maoist ambush. It was a political murder. I am very clear on that. I mean, I have no doubt about it. And the reasons why I am saying this and I am again saying it on record, I have said it many a times, is that I was the, let us say, I was chairing the program. Nand Kumar Patelji had made me in charge of the Parivartan Yatra. And I had left the site of the blast barely five minutes before the incident took place. We are lucky you are here with us today. I must say I am very lucky. And what happened in that phase of the Parivartan Yatra? This was the fourth phase. On the 24th, 23rd and the 24th of May, we were given complete security. Complete security. I mean, you could not turn your head and not see a police person or a paramilitary person with rifles and the supplementary role that they have 200 meters or 500 meters from the main. They were there completely. On the 25th, we were allowed to go into this area with not one security person on the road, not one person. And we went into Sukhma and as we were coming back, this incident took place. And like I mentioned, I crossed there, then I went into the next meeting place, which was Keshloor. There we got news that this incident has taken place. We had to disperse the meeting without creating too much of a ruffle and then news kept filtering in. That night at the Jagdalpur Marani Hospital, I was there with the people who were coming and wounded. Everybody who told me about that, not everybody I was able to talk to, they told me that we were being asked who is Nandkumar Patel. Who is Nandkumar Patel? One boy told me that he was asked, are you Dinesh Patel? That's a son. Yeah. But tell me something, who could have done this? You are saying this was... Somebody's interest. Who does the Supari killing? Mercenaries. It cannot have been done except having been organized by somebody. Otherwise, see. You think somebody in your own party could have leaked out information about your... There have been rumors about that. They have been throughout Chhattisgarh at that time and even today it is talked in those lines. But it cannot have been executed without the complicity of the state administration at whatever. Okay. May I come back to the longer question I asked you. What is the difference between the Congress and the BJP when it comes to Salva Judam, when it comes to Charam so-called Charambampanti and the whole problem? I mean, whether it's the BJP or the Congress, you don't treat it like a problem which is an economic problem, a problem of forest rights, of tribal rights, of mining. You treat it as a law and order issue. It has unfortunately degenerated into a law and order issue where the people associated with naxalism are adopting, let us say violence. They are using weapons. If you have an ideology, everybody I suppose has a right to that. And if that ideology says that we do not accept the constitution of India. And if that ideology says that the good of the people cannot be achieved except by doing away with this constitution, that is that if you challenge the state itself, if the entire institution of democracy has established in the country, if your thinking challenges that, then you come into a situation where there is no difference between what Dr. Ramansing is saying and what you are saying. Violence begets violence. They are violent. It does. Therefore, we are going to be violent towards them. You are not looking at the issues of forest rights, tribal rights. I suppose the difference would come about that this is the outer case. How are you to deal with this? Has the government of Ramansing been seen or has it really attempted to talk to them? We had this major process of talks in let us say Andhra Pradesh, then Andhra Pradesh. There was a series of talks. People armed naxalites marching through the state headquarter. Yet, there were talks. Eventually, whether through talks or the use of force or whichever way, it was limited in Andhra Pradesh or as it is today, Telangana. Have we done that in Chhattisgarh? We have not. And I do not think that there is any movement in history, in human history, where if there has been conflict, it has not eventually been resolved through talks. So you are saying you are going to talk with them. Number one, that should be the first priority. You should talk. And not only you, the Indian people, everyone says that there is a need for development. The land there, the agriculture, the various companies where they are farming, we have to deal with that. When you are, there is old saying, resource curse. The natural resources, these are the richest lands, whether it be the mines, whether it be the forests, but the poorest people live there, the richest lands where the poorest people live. There are two aspects to that. One is the lack of development in those areas. And maybe, not maybe, non-implementation of many acts of parliament. Including Pesar? Including Pesar, including the Forest Rights Act, fifth schedule. A lot of things which are there, they have not been implemented, maybe not at all. Community rights have been given to, I think, 36 or 38 villages up to 20,000 in Chhattisgarh. The actual community right, the Jal-Jungal-Jameen, who will do the promotion of it? Who will do the Gram Sabha? So the Pesar law is in its place. Under the One Adhikar law, which you had to give to the Gram Sabha, you did not give it to the Jal-Jungal-Jameen. There is no development, there are no roads, there is no light, there is no irrigation. You cannot develop the source of income. So you are saying that there is nothing like this, there is no development. There is less. There is less. And this is the second point. The first point is talks. The second point is to bring them to the mainstream at the same time. Yes, they do not want to enter the country. They do not believe in the constitution of India. This has become a naxalite. The common people, if I look at the naxalite in two parts, one part is their ideology. The other part is their way of working. It can be for ideology that some people are committed. What is the way of working? I also feel sad if I also want to help the common people. I also believe in left-leaning. That I am influenced by those thoughts. I definitely believe myself in the left-leaning. Where does the difference come from? Is the philosophy of naxalite pure naxalism not compromised in the lens of money? Where there is naxalism and where there is work, is it not true that once the amount is fixed, how much labor is given, what is given, no one is looking at it? You know the entire story of Soni Sori. You know that with the S.R. Group, the Arope, who gave money to whom, you are aware of all these stories. But we have not seen any resolution of these. Naxalism has become tinted by money taking. The corporates, the venerable husband are giving them money because they want their projects to come up over there. The naxalites are using it. They are using the jungle where they are getting dense cover. The main reason they are getting dense cover is that they are in an area where they have not even made revenue records. The revenue records are still there. Now, when I took up a bi-chance in Vidhan Sabha, that you have satellite technology, what was the problem in mapping you? Now the government is mapping you. In such areas, the naxalites have reached where perhaps there is no sunlight in some areas. You are Soni Sori's case. What are your views? Soni Sori, once there is pure activism, it is different. Then if you are motivated, if there is political stance, it is different. Soni Sori is with so many naxalites, so many social activists. She needs to see this too. The case is against her. The way she has been victimised also. She has been, as it was, thrown at her. These are not acceptable. You take action. You have the state, you have the judicial machinery. If you have proof that there is a naxalite which is associated with anti-state activity, then take action. Take action. No, sir. Throw the asset. There is no judicial action. I agree with you. What are your views on the treatment that has been given to Dr. Bin Aik Sen? Again, you have to have facts. You cannot put somebody in jail and then say there is no proof. He has been accused of helping indirectly and directly through messengers. Then he should be in jail. Why is he outside? He was jailed. Yeah, but then you are jailing people to create pressure, not take just action. If there is something against somebody, he should be inside. Okay, so these cases are different. But you, am I right if I understand you that both in the case of Dr. Bin Aik Sen, as well as Soni Sori, you feel they have been more sinned against than alleged sinners? I would definitely think so. Who have been complicit with the Maoists? If the government has information, what is stopping you from taking action? Judicious legal action. You have a judicial system in the country. Put them behind bars on legal basis. Okay. I want to ask you a few questions on two broad subjects. And this is linked to coal mining, Lakhanan, forest rights, tribal rights. We have seen there have been allegations against the Adani group of companies, Adani enterprises, and its association with the Rajasthan government, the Rajasthan-Rajavidyuth-Uttapadan-Nigam Limited. They have two coal mining blocks at Parsa East and Kanta Basani. And they have allegedly, according to some, violated the Supreme Court order of September 2014, which is called the coal gate. Now we know that that whole area, the tribal people, they have been fighting for many, many years for their rights. What is your position on this particular project? And after that, I want to ask you about the power plant, the Chhattisgarh, where the Adani group will invest more than 25,000 crores. It is a 600 megawatt power plant. And they have got one more big contract, National Highways Authority of India, in 2018, in the same year, for the 1,140 crore Rajmarg. So these three issues, we have to see that in Chhattisgarh, today, this Adani group has huge interests. Now tell us something about this issue. Adani group is one of the largest business owners in the last few years. We used to listen to Tata Birla's name, then Rambani's name. Now, on that level, or more than that, or the name that is going on in the country, it belongs to the Adani company. The way the Adani company came in Chhattisgarh, whether it was a party or any other, I did not agree with it that from the back door, you are giving the entry of mining. You did not give the lease of mining to Adani. You gave it to the Rajasthan government. Rajasthan government and Chhattisgarh government agreed with each other. Chhattisgarh Mining Development Corporation and the power distribution, power producing agency in Rajasthan, they came together and they formed, let us say, entity to mine coal and have it supplied to the power plant in Rajasthan. No issue. It is a national resource. Use it for creating another national resource. But the way you went about it, why cannot the government of Chhattisgarh or this entity itself do the mining? You have given the mining to a private company through a tender. SCCL participated, other parties participated and the lowest bidder got it. The process is okay. But what I am seeing it as is, you are allowing a person or an entity to do mining who otherwise would not have been in a position to it. This back door entry to mining, you put it on the floor. You guarantee that you put it on the floor. You gave the Indian government, Chhattisgarh government, back door entry. Adani group only. What is your policy? Sir, you open the private sector. Is there a new Jindal in your kingdom? He has big interests. He is a former congress empty? He is still associated with the congress party. I am not justifying one thing or the other. I am talking in general. Government's policy is that if you are an end user, then we will give you the mining. The government's policy at that time that if you are the consumer. Has the policy changed? It has not yet changed. They have changed. You have become a coal mine operator. Earlier, the private sector had a coal mine. Indira ji nationalised it. It was because of nationalisation. After the nationalisation of it, it remained with the government. Then you said, who will we give this resource to? If the government does not have funds to exploit it, etc. If there is a limitation of the government, it should not have. But if there is a limitation, then you said that the end user, who will use it himself, we will give it. So the policy that you have given here, I do not mean it directly to Adani. You have given someone the job of mining from the back door, which is not available directly, because it is not available in your plant. You understand that. If your government comes to power in Chhattisgarh, what will you do? If you believe there are irregularities? Government must be clear. You tell to the people that we are going to auction coal mines. We do not have the resource. We do not have the ability to mine. Then you do it. Do not do it quietly. It should not work from the back door. It should be transparent. Transparent. Transparent. The last set of questions I have for you. It is said that one of the reasons why Dr. Raman Singh has been successful as the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh. He has been a three term member. He has been a three term Chief Minister in 2003 to 2008, 2008 to 2013 and at present 2013 to December 2018. One of the reasons that he has been so successful as the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh that he has been very successful in implementing the public distribution system. It is said that the public distribution system in Chhattisgarh has been implemented one of the best in India. And he has said that in the last 10-15 years this has been implemented with great amount of efficiency and transparency. And he has said that in the last 10-15 years this has been implemented with great amount of efficiency and transparency. And that is one of the reasons for his success. Your party has now said that there is a big scam. You have said that it is a huge scam. It is a huge scam of Rs. 36,000 crores. But people think that why haven't you done this? And you have made this a big scam and people are saying that the story is over. Have you forgotten this? Dr. Raman Singh Ji's success why he has been successful is because he has been able to portray of a nice guy. I don't know what will happen about that when the time comes. But today where he has been able to get is mainly on the plank. I would discount these things to an extent. They count. BJP's face was not there. BJP got Bahumut. Raman Singh was the Chief Minister. He was the party president, he was the minister in Delhi. Before that, he was losing Vidhan Sabha. People used to win Sabha. This was his career graph. After he was formed, in the 2003 position, in comparison, a better-looking, soft-faced face came forward. And they say that this is the first time that he has done this in India and in Himachal, Tamil Nadu, even in Canada, he earned a name. Kichawalwale Baba. The PDS that we are talking about which is acclaimed, it has been commented upon even by the Supreme Court, what has been achieved in the PDS is from a manual system where records were maintained manually. It is an automated system. They have put it onto the IT. Now all the shops. They have said that there is less fraud. So you should welcome all this. There is less fraud. You have tried to streamline the system of distribution from the IT sector. Why is there less fraud? If you tell me, where does this scam come from? The profit of 36 hours was 2.5 lakhs. According to the 11 cases, it could be 2.8 lakhs. It could be 2.8 lakhs. If it is around 2% every year, it increases. The 36 hours of the 4 lakh families which the government has said that we will give 80% to the people through the PDS. We will give 80% to the central sponsored, plus state sponsored. The 45 lakh families should get the PDS. In 36 hours, 73 lakh families will get the PDS before the election. So you have brought the records to the IT sector. So is it wrong to give a bribe and make a ration card? No. What do you mean? Is this going to be a problem? You will try. Where did the scam come from? You have brought all these records to the IT sector. What did you think about the scam? That it will be a cashless transaction. Whatever the income will be, the loan of money and the payment of the other agency will be online. In the best PDS system of the online transaction in one day in 12 or 20 banks 3 crores 64 lakh rupees are found in cash. One day it was raided and in 10 or 12 banks 3 crores 64 lakh rupees are found in cash. Where did this come from? The things that come from here After the node connection? No, I think it was before the node connection. The node connection came later. This was the first transaction. And what are the loopholes? You put your name in the IT sector. You are saying that this is a foolproof system. Today in the voter list, there are more than 60 lakh names or more than double 60 lakh names. What will the computer hold? Give my name T.S. Singh. I write T.S. Singh three times in the voter list or in the ration card. Give one T without dot s space sing. Give one T.S. dot sing. The companies that are limited. The things that came in this To influence the elections Despite the use of IT In this On the large scale Each ration card shop owner I am not saying 100% 100% 200% 300% It was an empty ration card. I can also prove you if you have to So this was the ground reality. I have to interrupt you. I have spoken to you at length. You have been very kind. Thank you very much. I will start again In very short time In half a minute 1 to 2 minutes How confident are you That this time After 15 years The power will change The government will change. The government is tired The power to think Is also being destroyed. Look at their policies. Mahua connected to tribal They make a policy on that That it will go into exercise from the forest. They are talking about selling The root of the tree of Mahua. The life of the villagers is connected. They bring the law to sell The land of tribal And then when they feel That this is a big reaction They take it back. For example, private companies They make it available To build their towers And then I can tell you A lot of different things If you say This perception of people We have seen it in education We have seen it in health. Please explain to the people We don't have much time Thank you so much You gave us a lot of time You gave us time We don't have much time We have 5-6 months left And we will know by the end of the year What the verdict of the process I hope we can meet again Thank you so much Singh Dojee for being with us You've just heard and watched The leader of the opposition In the legislative assembly of Chhattisgarh Sri Bhuvaneshwar Sharan Singh Do Thank you very much