 I am James Swanik. Welcome to another episode of the alcohol-free lifestyle. Today I have another host of another podcast about how alcohol is shit. In fact, he's the author of a book that's actually named Alcohol Is Shit. His name is Paul Church, and he is the host of the Recovery Elevator Podcast. Paul, welcome. How are you doing? Hey, James. I'm good. Thanks. I'm doing great. It's great to be here with you, and hearing your name in this space for several years now, so it's fun to connect with you in person over the airwaves on a podcast. I'm looking forward to the next 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever. Yeah. I read your book in 2019, Alcohol Is Shit, which is a great title, by the way. Let me just kick off by asking you, why do you feel alcohol is shit? Okay. Well, I personally had to test that theory, that book title out, with first-hand experience, I don't know, a couple thousand times. It was a normal drinker for a while until probably the age of 22. I could take it or leave it, and then something flipped with it. I found myself drinking more than I used to, really to go after that same effect, that same buzz, that same drunk, whatever. But really, if you just boil down alcohol, alcohol is ethanol, which you need a couple additives to make it palatable. You don't need a lot of experimentation to recognize this. If you drink enough of it in one sitting, you will die. And sometimes there are arguments that a little bit of red wine is healthy for you. Well, those are the polyphenols to any grape skins in the tannins of the grapes. Alcohol, by itself, is pure shit. And by the numbers, alcohol is the most deadly drug on the planet. It kills more people each year than every other drug combined. Now, I want to be clear, my podcast isn't against alcohol, whatever. If you're a normal drinker, please drink one for me. I have just personally reached the conclusion six years ago in September 2014 that alcohol was not in line with my future goals. In fact, I had a mantra on my wall that I typed out and printed out and said, if you want this alcohol, then you can't have that. And that was referring to hopes and dreams, a career, a family, all that fun stuff. And then on the second side of that mantra was, if you want that at your hopes and dreams, then you can't have alcohol. It was really that simple. It took a while to get there with the inner dialogue. There's some cognitive dissonance there. You wake up in the morning and say, I'm done drinking for the rest of my life. And then later that night, you're drinking, you got to get past those mental roadblocks. And I think that's the hardest thing about alcohol. And it's also kind of the societal norm. It's everywhere. But really on this side of it, it's been a little bit of time since my last drink. It's not even a sacrifice. And when I first quit drinking, that's how I looked at it was, oh man, I'm going through life is like, I can't do something. I go to this party and I can have all kinds of drinks, but I can't do that. So I was looking at it as a life with that alcohol was a sacrifice. Here I am right now. My goodness, it is an incredible opportunity. It's a rocket fuel. It's like an ace up the sleeve. And I've learned that the stigma is fake, James. And when people actually ask, what do I do for a living? I don't shy away from it. I'm just like, oh, I got a podcast about alcohol addiction. I mean, it opens up so many doors because this is the Kevin Bacon thing, but it's one degree of separation. Everybody knows somebody who is struggling with alcohol and was trying to quit. So yeah, it's like a major point of connection with other people when I open about about my struggles with alcohol or about my desire to quit drinking. Yeah, it took me a while to get there. But right now, I think alcohol is shit. And again, if you're if people out there listening to drink normally, not a problem, drink one for me. How old are you now, Paul? James, I am 39 years old. I live in Bozeman, Montana. For work, I do a podcast called Recovery Elevator. And for fun, I like to get outside. I got a standard poodle named Ben. We got a mountain bike. We do a bunch of hikes. It's so beautiful here in Montana, especially in the summertime. And in the wintertime, I spend that more in warmer climates. I surfed in Costa Rica. I was in Columbia this last winter for a while. And yeah, I love it up here. Amazing. So you're 39 now. How old were you when you finally said enough and you kicked it to the curb? Yeah, six and a half years ago. So I'm pretty sure that was 33. Yeah, 33. And I first in 2010, so I was probably 28 or 29, on January 1st, I stopped drinking for two and a half years. Now, looking back on that, James, all I did was was go off wheel power. I was like, I'm not drinking, no matter what, like solid line in the sand. But eventually with willpower, that's a finite, that's an exhaustible muscle. And again, I was living life like it was a sacrifice. I drank again. And then I was about a couple years where I was like, maybe I can take it, leave it. I can handle a drink or two here and there. And occasionally I did handle a drink or two here and there. But those times are fewer and farther in between. And then summer of 2014 got pretty damn ugly, James. I got a DUI while driving to work, failed suicide attempt. And it just got bad. But I reached that moment where luckily it was a clear decision, alcohol has to go or else I'm most likely going to go. It's just a matter of time. Yeah. Yeah. So for you, it seems like it was running away from pain. So you decided to quit alcohol to avoid pain. I'm curious, sorry, first of all, is that correct? Is that clear? Is that accurate? Yeah, it's actually, it totally is, right? But sometimes people are told if you continue to drink, your liver will shut down and you'll die, right? And that always works in the short term. So for sure, I could see the writing on the wall, it was clear. If I continued to drink, nothing good was going to come out of that most likely suicide. And all those yets of like, well, you know, I haven't really lost my job yet. You haven't, haven't been fired or divorced or bankruptcy yet. Like all those yets, they were just around the corner. So I could see it clearly. And I said, if I don't do something now about this, life will do something about it, whether it be a correctional facility or whatnot. So you are correct. Yeah. So your main goal there was to avoid pain. And one thing I've learned from studying human psychology. In fact, there's a professor at a University of Texas, Professor David Bussey. He's always saying to me, human beings are always ever only ever trying to avoid pain or get reward, right? So avoid pain, move towards pleasure, avoid pain, get reward. So for you, it seems very clear that you were wanting to avoid pain, pain of DUI possible suicide. Thank you for sharing, being vulnerable, love to share that with us, losing a job, like pain, pain, pain, pain, pain. You wanted to avoid that. There are other people, probably less so around alcohol, who might quit alcohol to get the reward, right? And the rewards could be clarity, focus, energy, more sales in their business, attract their dream partner, have an amazing relationship, raise a family. And that's the reward bias, right? So I often ask my clients, I say, if I gave you $1 billion, if I offered you $1 billion never to drink again, would you drink again? And they all 100% of them say, oh yeah, I'd never drink again. So I say to them, well, in actual fact, you can quit drinking. You're just choosing not to. But for you, in that case, it's a choice because why or their reason doesn't seem to be big enough, right? If I offered them a billion dollars, they'll say, yes, I would quit drinking and never touch alcohol again. Yet it's the same people who are saying it's so hard, I had another, had a reset, oh, this is really challenging. So I'm curious whether you think a big enough reward could make someone quit drinking or is there too much kind of deep-rooted fundamental issues going on with people that even with the temptation of a billion dollars, they would still drink? Yeah, and addiction is complicated. And it's also going to be pretty simple too. It's a disconnection, right? So the reward, it has to be greater to or equal in value than the pain that the alcohol is covering up. So I got into drinking because of pain, right? There was inner turmoil. There was, you know, perhaps childhood trauma. I felt better when I drank. There was an underlying reason why I continue to drink alcohol, right? So that's a great question is if the reward is bigger than the drivers of pain, which caused people to reach for an external substance to find that internal wholeness. And yeah, you know, a lot of people think, oh, it's got to be that easy. It's just maybe, you know, maybe it's a professional athlete who gets this job and will have to worry about money. Well, why do they keep relapsing? Well, it's a little bit more complicated than that. But I don't know, what, what would you say with that? If, if someone offered you the reward for you, what would you do? I mean, I would, because I haven't drunk since 2010, I say, you want to give me a billion dollars? I'll take the billion dollars and never drink again. I'm just, and I'm confident, supremely confident that I would never drink again. But I'd have to switch it out to something you know, it wasn't to do with alcohol. Like if someone said, I'll give you a billion dollars and you could never talk to your family again. Well, I would definitely turn that down, you know. Yeah, I don't know. If I give you a billion dollars, you can never eat these biscuits out of Australia called Arnott's barbecue shapes. Oh, I'd have to really think about that one. I'd probably still take the billion dollars, but I'd probably think about it for a while. Sure. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I was not expecting that, but yeah, I like it. Yeah. So what has happened in your life since you made that choice to give up the boost? So what have been some of the obvious benefits that have come into your life? Some that you intentionally called in and some that maybe unintentionally came in? For sure. Okay. So I've always been an entrepreneur, James. I've had a lemonade stand when I was a kid. DJ'd all the fraternities in the Greek system when I was in college, having my own DJ business. And then early college, I went to, or right after college, I went to Spain at the age of 23 and I bought a bar in Granada. And so, you know, I had a drinking problem back then. And I understand not all of your listeners on this podcast are like straight out drinking problems and maybe they might eventually get there. Hope not. But for me, that was the case. And so I'm running a business as an entrepreneur at age 23, just out of college, ready to tackle the world. And kind of the opposite happened. I got tackled by the world, by alcohol, while I was in Spain, and it was the best and worst time of my life. You know, and after that, I had an adult sports business. We did a flag football, dodge ball, floor hockey, trivia, all that stuff. And this is like 2012, 13. And I had an arcade, I had several arcades across the state of Montana, then I had a DJ business. We're DJing about 100, we did do about 150 weddings this summer in the state of Montana. All of that with a ton of fog in my brain around me, right? And a lot of shame because I'd wake up, oh, I was coaching football too. I was coaching football in 2013. And I would go to football practice, never drunk, but I was just hungover, just foggy, operating all that stuff. And the key behind this is the presence, right? You're never quite fully present. And I feel that's the best gift you can give somebody is your full, undivided attention. And if you've got a headache, or your body is upset, or your stomach's mad at you, you're not fully present. And also, there's this thing called alcohol that can make all those symptoms go away. So you're always thinking, or at least I was, I'm like, man, when, when can I fix this? When can I fix this? So when I did finally quit drinking in 2014, you know, the rooms are 12 steps. It's like the pink cloud is what it's called. Everything just lifted. I felt so much better physically, James. I lost probably 20 to 25 pounds. I was happy. I recognized that I didn't need alcohol to have fun. And I was able to re-channel a lot of this energy that was going towards drinking, because it is so physically exhausting, James, to think of when your next drink is going to be where you're going to get it, perhaps where you're going to hide it from. Is it going to run about? Will it run out? Will it be a substantial supply? All that stuff, it takes a lot of mental energy and bandwidth. And when you finally make the decision, when I was done with all the moderation shit, believe me, I tried like a hundred different ways to moderate. Zero came in successful. It liberates so much energy. And I was able to put that into my dog, my friends, my relationships. But as an entrepreneur, this is something that I love. I've always been an entrepreneur. I was able to learn how to, to podcast, right? I recognize that I wanted a little bit more accountability, actually a lot more accountability on my journey. And so I learned all that, learn how to podcast, learn how to do a website, the graphic designing programs that eventually turned into a private membership community, that eventually turned into retreats, alcohol-free travel trips. And so so many doors were opened for something that I love. And I'm an entrepreneur, so it just happens, I like building businesses. And I was good at it before, but man, it was like a, it's like a slight, I strapped on a rocket ship on my back and just crushed it. And I will say, I, I kind of replaced the alcohol with work. Listeners might need to be, watch out for that. I call that addiction whack-a-mole, where you push down the alcohol and, and something else takes its place. But hell, you know, working 60 hours a week wasn't quite killing me at the clip of blacking out seven nights a week. It's just way healthier, right? And then later on in life, I was like, all right, I'm kind of stressed. I'm working a lot. And I ended up selling those three businesses. And now all I do is recovery elevator, which is the passion project of a lifetime. My goodness, I've, it's so rewarding. And you're in the same field to see somebody else getting your message. I checked out your 30 day challenge program. That looks fricking awesome to see when, when one person takes your course and they get it, that's the payment enough. You don't need any more payment just to see that somebody got it. And then knowing that that person is probably going to talk to somebody in their family, their neighborhood or their brother, their family, whatever, and they're going to pass that message. That's the best currency that I've ever come across. Yeah, it's, it's incredibly rewarding to see someone come in and ask for help, get support and help and then see them transform in front of your eyes. And then I always say, and which you just touched on there, the transformation is not just in one person. Is it the transformation is then in all of the people that that person comes into contact with, because those people then see their new elevated being and they're like either secretly or verbally so inspired by the fact that they've lost weight, they're happier, they're more connected, they're more intentional, they're more present, they're doing better in their job, they're healthier, they start talking about the fact that they're alcohol free consistently. Some people who are, you know, listening or kind of either secretly thinking, oh, I think I should cut back on my alcohol too. Wow, I'm really impressed by Paul. Like, it's incredible how healthy he looks, wow, his skin is glowing. I think I'm going to cut back, or I'm going to eat better, or I'm going to go start going to the gym, or I'm going to be more intentional, I'm going to spend more time with my kids. So it's, it's not just helping one person, you're helping families and colleagues and friends and acquaintances and future generations. So, you know, not for this to be a kind of love fest, but thank you and congratulations for the amazing work that you do in inspiring people to change their lives, which in turn inspires lots of other people to change their lives. Yeah, beautifully said, James. In fact, I met, oh, I wish I knew the name, but I met somebody this last December. I was at a retreat in Costa Rica who took one of your courses and it was same thing. He's like, yeah, man, change my life through two or three years ago, it took one of your courses and just, yeah, I mean, you change that guy and then to find out four months later, I'm going to be on your podcast. I was like, oh, that's, that's really cool. That's, that's synced. It's an incredible journey and we have to fix ourselves, right? You hear a lot about the climate change and universe and oh, we don't have to save the planet or the earth. We have to fix ourselves and everybody has to do this on the micro level, right? We all individually have to address what's holding us back. And for many of us who are listening to this podcast or struggle with drinking, that's the one Domino, James is going to knock all the others down. Seriously, you quit drinking. That's a challenge, right? It's doable, very doable with dudes like yourself and programs that you put on James. But once you do that and you get control of it, all the other little issues in your life, it should just go away. Well, not just go away, but like you're going to have the consciousness and the energy and the desire and just the clear height, like the clear mind to do so. It's incredible how one thing, removing one thing from my life six and a half years ago has opened up so many doors. It's amazing. Yeah. The first door that I consciously was aware that it opened up for me was realizing my childhood dream. And I wouldn't have realized my childhood dream unless I had quit drinking months earlier. And then that childhood dream was hosting a television show. So I quit in 2010. I was in Austin, Texas at the South by Southwest Festival. I had two Bombay Sapphire gin and tonics on a Friday night at an industry party. Didn't get drunk, but went home to my hotel 20 minutes north of Austin, went to sleep, work up in the morning, looked in the mirror and just realized I was a bit weathered in the face. I was just kind of blah. I put on a bit of weight. I wasn't fat, but I had a bit of a tummy and I was just tired and I could taste the gin in my mouth from the night before. And I went to an IHOP, International House of Pancakes, right next door to the hotel. And I sat in the IHOP and I'm like, what am I doing? And I just said, you know what, I'm going to commit to 30 days alcohol free and see what happens. And so I did. I lost 13 pounds in 30 days, which was kind of crazy. Wow. My skin got better. I started sleeping much better. My anxiety and irritation dropped. And I set this as well as doing a 30 day no alcohol challenge for myself. I did this 30 day help my friends challenge. I didn't tell anyone about it, but I just like each day I'm just going to call up a friend and say, Hey, what's going on? I'm going to help you with anything. And I did that for 30 days. And about six weeks later, I got a call from one of those friends who had helped and he said, Hey, ESPN is looking for a international anchor for sports center. I thought you'd be really good for it. Do what we do. Introduce you to the producer. And I'm like, hell yeah. And I didn't have any TV experience. And because I had the clarity and the focus and the drive and now the confidence that I didn't have with alcohol, I went for that job and I auditioned and I got the gig and then I ended up hosting Sports Center on ESPN for two years. And could I, would that have happened if I had been drinking? No way. Because if I was drinking, you know, I would have, I would have just, you know, dragged my ass being lethargic. I wouldn't have taken all of those necessary steps and had that focus and that drive to fly up, fly from Los Angeles to Bristol, Connecticut, do the audition and get the gig. So, you know, that in itself, if I die tomorrow, I'm dying a happy man because I have to build what was my childhood kind of dream, you know. And I see it all the time with people who quit drinking, whether they're doing my programs or other people's or they're doing it themselves. It's incredible what they can create in their life when they remove this attractively packaged poison. I know a little bit about the beast of ESPN and that machine and they don't just pick scrubs off the street. It's an incredibly impressive story and you're right. There's no way that would have worked out for you if your consciousness was dipped, right? And that's what alcohol does to us. And I saw that photo on your website with Jennifer Aniston and listeners, you can't see James right now, but I mean, he's completely transformed. He's the man. Look at him. He looks great. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it. I wanted to ask you a question, a somewhat political question, but also not political question. But there was a story in the news recently where the White House and President Biden did a partnership with NI as a bush, created as a Budweiser beer, where they were saying, if you get the vaccine, for people who aren't vaccinated, if you get the vaccine, we'll give you free beer. I'm not sure if you saw it in the news. Did you see, are you familiar with this? I did not, but I'm not surprised. Yeah. So I'm just curious. Forget any pros or cons about the vaccine, right? Forget the vaccine part of that. This is not a conversation about that. The fact that the White House and a sitting president is actively encouraging people to take any action and will reward you with beer, free beer. What are your initial thoughts on that? I appreciate you don't know the full story, but what's your initial reaction to that? That's a damn. That's a smart marketing campaign. As I mentioned earlier, that's the most addictive drug in the world. Yeah. And that's probably going to get the most action out of people. So good on them. I think it's totally effed. I do, right? I mean, there's there's 20 or 30 million people in America alone with an AUD and alcohol use disorder. But hey, you know, if you want to put a, you put a carrot on a stick or a gold bar on a stick in front of somebody's alcohol, right? And you're going to get people to move and not for the carrot, but, but for the booze for more importantly, the alcohol inside there. And for many people, alcohol is not a problem, you know, but if you drink enough of it over time and the environment is correct, it's going to turn on you. It will. So man, that's a part of me is like, that's genius. You could not have picked a better thing. The other side of that is, like, we've, we've got a ways, we've got a ways to go. And I do think there were, you know, after this pandemic fades away of COVID-19, we will return to the previous pandemic, which was already front and center, but now it's going to be here even more. And that's the mental health addiction, anxiety, depression pandemic where that has been, that has been bubbling to the surface for quite some time. And we've heard a lot about the opioid crisis. But again, alcohol and alcoholism, those numbers dwarf or completely dwarf the opioid crisis and just those numbers don't pale to the devastation and wreckage of alcohol. Yeah. What do you, let me ask you on that, James, what do you think of that? Well, I, I very rarely voice my political opinions or anything to do with politics. I just tend to stay out of it and keep my views private. But when I saw, when I read that, I posted on my Instagram, I've since taken it down actually, because a couple of days later afterwards, like I took it down, I rethought it. But I posted initially, I posted something when I said, I've lost all faith in any government official, any politician, any health official, after today's announcement that the White House is encouraging people to drink beer in order to get the vaccine. Right. So I initially posted that. And then I thought, ah, maybe I'm being, and maybe I'm being in reactionary mode here and instead of response. And then I dialed it back again. I changed it. And I said, I'm very disappointed with President Biden and the White House over their decision today or over, you know, them trying to get people to take the vaccine with the lure of free beer. Again, I have no commentary about the vaccine. I just got commentary about offering beer, offering alcohol to its citizens in order to get them to take an action. My view is I thought it was outrageous, preposterous, completely lacking in any sense or any leadership. I thought it was a disgrace. You know, I think what I posted was the government or President Biden and the White House is trying to get people to take the vaccine, which reportedly kills people with compromised health, by getting them to drink something that compromises your health. Yeah, that by the numbers kills just as many people as COVID each year, if not more, right? It has to be more. It must be more. It must be pale in comparison to alcohol. It's like, you know, four million is around COVID right now and three million for alcohol worldwide. But if you go in for heart disease and there's so many that you die from alcohol, but it goes down to something else. So I've read it's three million, but it's projected like 10 to 20 million worldwide. Yeah. So in my opinion, alcohol is much, yeah, you're fixing the COVID vaccine, fixing COVID, right? But then you're giving them something more, more dangerous and deadlier. You know, but like if the two most deadliest drugs on the planet are legal and that's tobacco and alcohol. And my podcast, I don't think you're saying either isn't saying to illegalize alcohol. We've tried that in the 20s and didn't work. But yeah, there's, there's some things to be a little bit more considerate, maybe like a prepaid visa debit card, right? There's 30% of Americans who don't drink at all. And not everybody was kung fu fighting, right? You just think everybody drinks. But I think maybe like maybe a little bit of Bitcoin or maybe a prepaid debit card for your vaccine might be a better, better way. And also people under 21 might need that vaccine too. Yeah. Anything, anything, anything, anything other than just have some poison and have some toxins. Yeah. Maybe a, maybe a pizza. Well, I don't know about pizza as well. Yeah. They've been trying incentivize people to get the vaccine with Dunkin Donuts and all this kind of stuff. I'm like, oh man. As someone who, who is a, not a practitioner, but that's a wrong word, as someone who is health conscious, let's say, I just shake my head at some of the, some of the things that people have been doing to try to get people to take action around, around the vaccine. I'm like, your suggestions are infinitely better than what they've rolled out so far in my opinion. Yeah. I 33 seconds to think about it, but I'm sure you came up with many more too. It's just, it's, yeah, I will be Googling about that. And I'll probably podcast about that as well. Yeah. I did not know about that. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Of course. Hey, what are you, what are you drinking instead? If not alcohol, what are some stuff that's not watered that do you drink instead? Yeah, for sure. I was just in Columbia and my goodness, they've got an incredible fleet of alcohol free beverages. And I did a YouTube video about how to make tamarind and lime aid. That's a huge, like tamarind paste and turn into a tamarind lime aid. It's delicious. My go to when I go out is a soda water with a splash of cranberry. When I say splash and talking like a quarter of the cup is cranberry with a lime wedge. You know, I don't drink NA beers, not because some of them have a 0.5 alcohol content. I just prefer the taste of something better, like a fresh squeezed lemonade. You really can't beat that if you throw it like a strawberry lemonade. I even sometimes order a Shirley Temple, not to be funny or silly. Those things are delicious. They're so good. And so the complaints or the thought, what am I going to drink if I'm not drinking? I mean, there's so many more things that they don't, that won't kill you if you drink enough of it. Yeah. Yeah. And what do you hear is the biggest resistance from folks who follow you or support you? What's the biggest resistance around quitting alcohol do you find? Yeah. A lot of it's the stigma. We think there's a stigma surrounding drugs and alcohol. What I have found is that stigma is fake. With the 1 to 2% of the times where the stigma is true, that's a good filter. Those are friends, family, co-workers, bosses, employers that you don't want anything to do with. So that just eliminated toxicity from your life. That's a good thing. The other 98, 99% of people, when you open up about drinking, they recognize that is a connection point. You say, wow, this person's being vulnerable, then they are going to say, oh, well, I'm also questioning my alcohol intake or my friend and my family, my brother. And another one here, James, is we're going up against, okay, so first one, the stigma. What are people going to think? And number two is we're going up against the unconscious. There's a big part of me that was like, hey, I really want to quit drinking, but the unconscious, which is how you live your life, how you go through difficult emotional charges in the stomach and life, it needs alcohol. So probably the biggest factor that's holding people back is themselves, but they don't know. They're not aware of those parts of the personality, they're holding them back. Those are the two big ones that I see of why they can't drinking, but one of them isn't quite as clear as the unconscious. It's there, but it's just, and I couldn't see it, right? It's just like, oh, I want to quit drinking, but then why do I keep drinking every night? What's the one thing that you would say to someone, someone's in the street and they say, hey, Paul, how do I quit drinking? You got 30, you got 20 seconds with them. How do I quit drinking, Paul? What do you say to them? For sure. I would say burn the ships, open up to your closest friends, your family, and let them know, have a one-way conversation that you can't pull those conversations back. You're going to create that accountability. That accountability is inevitably always going to open up into community, right? So you can't quit drinking alone. It doesn't have to suck. It could be fun. You can do it with other people. I don't know, it's 20 or 25 seconds. Yeah. Yeah. People don't have to do it alone, but why do you think we human beings still think we can? Okay. I think two main reasons for that. Number one, the stigma. We feel like we have to. We can't open up about our deepest, darkest secret that I can't control my drinking. Well, there's even about 50 other million people or probably a planet, probably 150 million people. So that's the big one. There's a stigma. We think we have to do it alone. Another reason is, well, I just went blank on you there. Yeah. First reason we can't do it alone. And the other one is it's the unknown, right? I think another reason why it's so hard to quit drinking is it's the unknown. The circuitry in the brain is anything, it's a snapshot from the past up till now. So life without alcohol, it's really just not there. We can't vision it. We can't see it. The circuitry isn't quite built there. And stepping in that far outside of the comfort zone, it's like too much sometimes. Yeah. And how long do you think it takes for people to realize that they, for people to actually see that they can do it? Like how long into the process do you feel it is? Is it days, weeks, months? Yeah, that's a good question. For somebody who's been drinking every night for a decade, log in that first night. Ooh, that's a big one. That's a big one, right? As far as the traction goes, there's something magical or there's something about those 12-step dates of the 30, 60, 90 a year in the two years. The 30 days is a big one. Many can go a week, but log in those 30 days, and you have a 30-day challenge, right? You've probably experimented with those dates. That's a big one. The two-year mark, too. I read somewhere where 2.5 people out of 1,000 make it to two years without alcohol. Now you can keep trying over and over and over, right? So 2.5 people out of 1,000 will make it to two years once they make the decision to quit drinking. Again, you can keep making that decision over and over so you can start over as many times as you want. But the study I read shows that once you hit two years, that's, you're not good for life. If your goal is to stay sober or away from alcohol your whole life, but once you hit two years, most of those people, they're, I don't want to say good to go, but they're doing all right. They're doing good. And some people go to AA. Some people don't, right? But the ones that make it two years, that's kind of the launching point. But anytime listeners, I want to reiterate that. I hate the word only in our community when people sign up and they say, you know, I've only been, I'm only on day three. I just cringe because anytime away from alcohol, especially if you've been drinking for the last couple of decades, or maybe three months straight on a deep binge, anytime away from alcohol, again, the world's most addictive drug, that's a win. That's a huge win. So listeners, I want you to reframe it from saying, I'll be fine or like, I'll be happy when I have 30 days, 60 days or 90 days. You need the timeframe. We live in psychological time. We have to have those barometers for success. But just, I mean, you hear it, you hear it one day at a time, and it's kind of cliche, but really, like if you're, if you're just doing it now with that alcohol, that's a hell yes, it's a big win. And if you keep doing that, you're going to look down at your calendar and say, oh, shit, 15 days, 20 days, 30 days. AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, Effective or Ineffective? Yeah. You know, the, the, the only chapter I deleted in my book, James, was the, it's called the current state of addiction. It was like a 14 page chapter on the, the treatment modalities and what works. Well, after I wrote that chapter, I found out that nothing works. Or the shall I say is nothing really has a promising success rate. And the best study that I could find on AA, and this might piss people off listening right now, is the high, the high single digits. It's like an eight to nine percent. That's, that's what I've read as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even like your $30,000 30 day in treatment rehabs as those are like the low teens, you know, but I, I, I'm a big fan of AA. I still go, I probably go once a week, maybe once a month. Sometimes I go three months. I love going to AA when I travel. It's instant community. You just meet a bunch of friends. So I look at more as, as, as community is to meet other people who are also have a shared common interest of not drinking shit or poison. But as far as quitting drinking, I mean, there's so many modalities. I think AA is great. It's something to try. I hate to hear people ride it off because they, you know, they heard something of, oh, I don't know, I don't, I don't believe in God or higher powers. Well, maybe you should go to a meeting or two, but, um, it worked for me, but I also had to be ready for it. It worked, but also a ton of other modalities at the same time. I don't think it should only be AA. It should be collaboration AA with talk therapy with yoga AA and meditation AA and your, your 30 day program AA and, or there's so many other things to do. So if I was to say, what do you think is the most effective strategy, most effective method? What would it be? Yeah, I would say moving the energy by terms of conversation with other like-minded individuals and with those who are closest to you in your life. I feel these addictions, um, and not everybody listening on this podcast is like fully addicted alcohol. I get that, but these are adaptive behaviors, right? These are coping mechanisms, strategies, and I was self-medicating for a long time and it worked. Nice job, Paul, to figure out a way to get through life, but eventually it didn't work. Um, and so I had to change, I had to change my behavior. So the best way I would say it is, is to have those intimate conversations with your loved ones, therapists, a doctor, I mean, and by the way, I've talked with enough doctors and therapists that they have an internal, uh, equation and when you say, oh, you know, I drink three to four beers a night. They're multiplying that by four or three, right? Um, so be honest with them. There's a lot of resources out there, but you have to open up. Why are we so afraid to open up? Again, it's that unconscious that's saying, oh, shit, I have to go way into the unknown. I haven't, I've lived a long time without going without drinking. I don't know if I can do this. So it's almost like your unconscious kind of gets in front of us every single time prescription drugs. What are your thoughts on prescription drugs to get you off alcohol? For sure. I don't believe in, uh, in that's the only way I know now truck zone. That's a Sinclair method. Um, it's an opioid antagonist blocker. So it just, you, you, you don't quite process alcohol the same way. We've had a lot of success with that in our community. Um, but again, what happens if you don't decide just don't take the pill, right? Um, psychotropics, antidepressants, I'm not quite versed on that. I've, it helps that stuff can help, right? So as we talked earlier, the, the success rates are pretty low. Um, if you can have adjunct therapy, sometimes it might take a village or a whole, whole medical team to help you out of this. And you might try things that, that don't work. I came off my antidepressant when I quit drinking. Um, I came off my ADD meds when I, after I quit drinking, but, uh, yeah, that stuff is, is kind of for everybody. I, I'm the firm believer that we were born with everything, the circuitry needed. There's nothing fundamentally flawed with us. And in the right environment, in the right setting, uh, we should be just fine. Yeah. And I think with the right mindset as well, right, setting, right mindset, instead of saying no to alcohol, say yes to everything, you know, say yes to an alcohol free life. Um, that little mindset shift can, can work wonders. Paul church, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your, your guidance and wisdom. Uh, so great to connect with you, mate. Wonderful. Um, especially when I read your book back in 2019, it's been, it's a real honor to got to know you here. James, I've been hearing your name for a while now. It's great to connect with you and good stuff. Keep up the good work, my man. And for the listener, uh, you can check out Paul. He's the host of the recovery elevator podcast, which you can find an apple podcast and on Spotify. And he is the author of the book, alcohol is shit. Paul, thanks very much again, and we'll catch you on the next one. James, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the alcohol free lifestyle podcast. 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