 Is it recording up? Yep. All right, let's get going then. Hello everyone. Welcome to the TSE call, not so weekly anymore. This is a public call. Anybody is welcome to join and contribute. There are two requirements to doing so, though. You need to be aware and be ready to live by the antitrust policy, the notice of which is being displayed, if you're online. The other piece is the code of conduct, so nothing fancy there, but just making sure we got all the basics taken care of. With that done, we can move on with the agenda. Is there any announcements anyone wants to make? Nope. All right. So we had three quarterly reports actually submitted, some of which had been quite late, but eventually made it. I have another chance to check if, since yesterday, when I finished the agenda, there was like very few people among the TSE members actually reviewed them, and I saw Brian pointed that out in his email. And it'd be good to know what the status is. It seems like we've made good progress. Is there anything anyone wants to bring up? I saw there was a comment from Dan on the Ares report. The maintainers diversity section or contributor diversity. I mean, this is a message for everyone ready to take at the heart that, you know, you can't just say, yeah, it's pretty much the same. It's like, well, nobody remembers what that was. So this is a request for everyone to make an effort and actually put the least, you know, what does, where do we stand with regard to diversity? That way we don't have to go fish for that information if we want to find out. That makes sense. It's worth updating the wording on the template, though, because it kind of sounds like just tell us the Delta. So if you want a direct link, you probably get it if you put it in the blurb. And I saw there was a question from Gary on the Explorer. And I saw just before the call, there was a comment posted also from Jonathan, who is saying, hey, is Explorer even working at all? So do we have anybody from the Explorer project? I responded to Jonathan on the TSE call just again, just before the call. But, you know, Jonathan seems to be frustrated there isn't more progress. And I assume the Explorer team would also share that sentiment, but he characterizes that it's not active and I don't think that's backed up by either the actual activity or by the report. They haven't implemented or finished with fabric to support yet, but it's in progress. And, you know, I'm sure they would welcome help from other folks more familiar with fabric. And then, you know, we do get somewhat back to the question of is it their obligation to support other frameworks? And I think in the absence of people familiar with those frameworks showing it to help, I don't think, you know, that's a fair criteria or critique of them. Unless we were to see evidence that they were pushing other help away, you know, or telling people we're not explicitly not going to support that. And I haven't seen that, but, you know, I haven't exhaustively read every email. But I would say those would be signs, you know, if there were absolutely no commits over a quarter, if there were, you know, or was active discouragement of new contributions coming in. Those would be the signs that this is not a healthy project and we should perhaps roll it up or if the core contributors all kind of said, hey, we've got reassigned we can't move on kind of happened with composer. But and no one knew a stepping in a ticker place, but I don't think Explorer is there and I and I was really happy to see their review their report. All right, thanks for that input. I mean, you know, this idea that we could, you know, make it mandatory for project to support, you know, one platform and other I think is counter to the whole spirit of open source which is essentially volunteer based. It's like, can't force volunteers to do things they don't want to. You know, it's the lead follower get out of the way kind of principle right. The most we should be expecting or the least we should be expecting is that, you know, when somebody does show up that they are welcoming them and and trying to figure out how to make, you know, something work and break support for other other platforms, but Yeah, I don't see any evidence they haven't the opposite. Yeah, I would. I mean, I've talked to a few of the folks over there I think you know they did have a problem before right I think there's a team has come back and tried to do some stuff on there. Just to mention on my question is it was really more around. I mean, I understand why we always asked about diversity and diversity of maintainers and contributors and all that stuff right. I don't always believe that you're going to get a million contributors on projects right so to me, another interesting metric on something or whatever is how many people are actually using it. Right. I think that's right. I mean, look, if I don't have to contribute to something and I can use something right. Why would not right. So that I think that was kind of that just so people know that's kind of where my question came from I think that's just an interesting thing to see like what's the uptake of that type of stuff right because then maybe other people will want to contribute or it's just good to know. That's actually an interesting question for the TSC would be, you know, what are the ways other projects have tried to answer that question is through telemetry, you know, stuff that sends a ping when it gets started up, you know, and that obviously has pretty negative privacy implications. You know, and you want to make it able to turn it off but if you have it off by default, then you have really no idea. Right. I mean stuff like when you install a boom to it sends a ping. A lot of other software, you know, certainly, certainly does that but we haven't done that I think for any of our projects I don't think and nor do I think we want to recommend it but I don't know it's an open question. If that's something we should do I don't see any other way really to measure usage out there other than having some sort of callback thing. Yeah, even downloads is tough, right, because half the time like we have like automated tools that like, you know, that like download our own stuff to test it so you end up with like this kind of weird number if you test like every hour, but yeah, you know, people to read from the community. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think it's just, you know, more they talk about being in the community and things like that. I guess, you know, I would just be interested right if they have, you know, some stuff that's in there but yeah I agree it's hard to it's hard to it's hard to measure right if you're not going to accurately measure right if you more can actually say, you know, download and register. All right anything else on any of the reports for that matter. Yes, Mr. Chairman. One of the things in the borough report was someone went and looked at the number of contributor or patches that were submitted or something like that. And the thing came up about how the tool works. And I think rise comment was that they were not DCO compliant. So I don't know if that's common. Yeah. I did look at that and in a, in a moment where I didn't have time to focus on it and I'm confused by who that is. I also don't understand how it got past our DCO check was always been enabled in what way are they not compliant. It's a fake email. It's a fake string that looks like an email right you can't send email to that. Okay. And then there were some commits that were of this this is a merge so it's fine. But I've noticed that not necessarily on this repo, but they're committed to this form that just have the verified check, which somehow the DCO bot doesn't flag. And talking about DCO is my least favorite thing to do. So, yeah, this is, I will tell you that almost every project has this because this is a an email domain that comes up a lot. You can send email to that account, but not through that email address. In other words, if you figure out the account is is the first part of the email there. Sure. And there, there are ones that have the even more fake hidden address where it has, you know, a hash. And those are, you know, yeah, there's a setting that you can make so that it obscures your, yeah. Yep. But almost every project has this problem. There's an awful lot of commits that have that type of signature. It's especially true when people are submitting, you know, sort of working it working in their personal repo and then just submitting a pull request directly from, from their account. That's usually how it comes across. So, is there anything we can do is just like everybody says, yep, yep. That's the problem, but we don't have a lot's going to have to be told that that's not a valid email. I didn't call this out here, in particular to pick on borough was that I noticed because when I was doing the report. When I was looking at the stats for it, I noticed this, that they had this committer. And I'm not trying to pick on borough here either. I just, it seemed like it was common across many projects. So, yep, it is. I'm also wondering if it impacts the topic for later on the election. You know, who's an eligible voter. I'm assuming this address would not show up as an eligible voter either. I didn't have to ask Dave. Yeah, I thought he was on the call. I am. Yeah, it's just something to keep in mind now. So, that's, that's so that adds to the issue of DCO, which we already have an issue open as to how much do we actually need to know about who the person really is. And so, seems like in addition, we can't even rely on the bot to validate that there's something like looks like in a real email address. Anything else. All right, if not, I think we can move on. There was a caliper report is due. And the next one I think is fabric will start the Q3 reports and fabric is the first on the list. So that brings us to the discussion part of the agenda. Dave. Hello, I just had two updates for everybody this morning. The first one relates to how we want to, well, let's see that there have been some issues over the years of people not knowing exactly how they can show their support for hyperlegion. I think that community have said, you know, I, you know, I go to meetups I like to give talks and all that stuff. I want to put it in my Instagram or I want to put it in my email or on my business card. What can I put on there to show my support for hyperlegion. And over the last few weeks behind the scenes I've been working closely with the rest of the hyperlegion staff. I came up with this document called showing your support, which I just published last night. And the goal of this document is to just clarify what we think is acceptable to put on your profiles or in your LinkedIn. Based on what you see as your role in our community. And most of these are very clear cut. You know, if you're an elected TSC member, or like you or no, you know, you would be hyperlegion TSC chair, right, or technical steering committee chair, it's pretty obvious. The goal here is to be as narrow and as precise as possible. So, if you're a maintainer, tell us your maintainer. And then at the top you can see we have rules or roles for everybody or if you consider yourself a champion if you go above and beyond to bring the message and to help people get started with hyperlegion. You know, if you feel like you're a champion, call yourself a hyperlegion. But this was really just us trying to clarify this part of participation in our community. And we have consensus on staff, this is what we like so I thought I'd throw it out here to the TSC to get comments and feedback. This is obviously not carbon stone, but the goal here was to be simple. So I hope there isn't a lot of disagreement with this. And with that I'll open the floor for questions before I move on. All right. Any reactions, any comments. So this is for business cards and LinkedIn profiles and email signatures. Just if you want to show that you're part of the hyperledger community in your personal communications, however you have, you know, if you want to put it on there associated with your name, this is how I'm part of hyperledger. These are sort of, these are the rough guidelines. These are the rules. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think there are some cases where we saw folks with LinkedIn profiles that characterize the relationship to hyperledger in a way that looked more formal than it was. And then we realized we didn't really have a kind of a standardized approach to that. So this is intended to be one, one kind of way to do that. The second is, some of you know, we had a technical ambassador program for a little while where we try to qualify people who go out and kind of speak technically on our behalf and that that got a little complicated to try to manage. And it had us as staff passing judgment on people a lot more often than we care to. And until we get to something more objectively measurable, you know, numbers of commits or something like that. I'm going to put that on ice just for now. But, but we felt it was still important for people to be able to consistently identify if they want to their relationship to, to hyperledger. So this is, it's not intended to be a big deal. I wouldn't expect people to make business cards, but you know, to the degree people wanted to list this on LinkedIn or other places without it was at least just worth kind of standardizing on some terminology. Yeah, thanks Brian for clarifying. Yeah, this just gives us a backstop for us to point to if there's some disagreement over somebody's professed role in hyperledger. Mark had a comment here similar to governing board members as well. That's a great mark. I'll go ahead and add that. This is really just a formalized or it's a list of our formal roles in our community. Right. It's really what it is. So, let's see. So the other item I wanted to bring up was last night I stood up a test instance of a very simple form that Ryan and the team want to use leading into the TSC elections this fall. Last year, it was difficult for people to confirm whether they were eligible to vote for the TSC election. And so this year we decided to create this this is just simple form, you can type in your email address and you can hit check. And it will hash your email check it against the list of hashes. And if that if there's a match then you are in the list of eligible voters now. We're populating that list using the scripts that Tracy wrote a couple years ago, just like we did last year in the year before. So, if you remember the timeline I presented. In the weeks ahead of the election. Ryan I will be updating that list pretty much daily. So this this web app will get updated almost daily with the list with the freeze happening was like a week before right before the election opens right so the day before the election opens so we're starting earlier this year to get prepared for the election so that we have all the pieces in place and the experience is a lot smoother so just wanted to show you guys this is what we're doing. And to give a bit more background, you know, I think we felt uncomfortable publishing a full spreadsheet because that made it really easy for spammers and and others to kind of abuse that full list obviously this is all public data. You know, and you can obviously check email addresses that aren't yours. This is also intended to cover aliases where we've identified you know there's three different addresses that are actually the same person. Because that is a fair bit of work that we have to do to try to ensure people don't inadvertently get the right to vote twice, but that is required but it's losing on our part. Right, and you can check any of your email addresses you've used. This one does not try to consolidate known aliases. So this is just a raw list raw check. And the current data here is data that I ran for the first half of this year I think, not all of time so if you check it right now and you're not in the list that doesn't mean you're not going to be able to vote don't worry about it it was just some data. Because it takes quite a lot of time to crunch the list and so I just ran it over the last six months. And, oh yeah one other point here, thanks for doing that. You can see here that if you aren't in the list the error here says please email Arno. If you think you should be in the list. Nice. Yeah. What do we think that a generic email is. I get it. That was a joke for this morning. I am Ryan are still working out the best way to do it. If you guys have any ideas on how you'd like us to handle this. We're all ears. Otherwise Ryan I think you're just going to stand up and email list and the C18 will just, you know be a separate email list and we'll just take them as they roll in. I would go to put Arno cell phone number there. How about his home address. No but something you said worries me slightly the you said this is the raw least it's not the consolidated least and if I were paranoiac and you know I have several email addresses and I could imagine you're going to further process that list and I'm checking my email is there I'm going to go yep you're legible then you further process this to consolidate somehow a mistake is made and my email address is gone from that list and now I think I'm in but I'm not. I got you that is actually a real concern I think as long as we make sure we're not deleting anything from the list when we consolidate really all we're doing when we mean consolidate is to group them. We're going to send out multiple ballots to people, and we don't have a really good solution for that yet. Although we think with the LF ID stuff that's being changed that that we will have a solution eventually but I can't promise that it will be done before this falls election. So, if you're in this list you're going to get a ballot one way or another I feel comfortable saying that if you're in this list. It's the time that the ballots are set. There may be people on this list today on the list on this list of hashes today, who are no longer eligible because their last commit was 11 months ago. Right, July of 2019. Yeah, so if you if that's your point if you're checking it every day and seeing that you're on the list. This is a first cut. This isn't the final list. You know we're not going to. This isn't the list that's going to get ballots. Looking for feedback. Right. And, like I said earlier, we're going to be updating this list, daily, you know during the weeks leading up to the election itself. So if you go, if you wait until the day before the election, and you check it. And you're in it. Right, then you're probably fine. Then you're going to get it back. Why don't you just put the date of the last commit. Oh, next, like if I punch in an email address it shows you the date of your last commit. That's actually a brilliant idea. Oh, good idea, Chris. Awesome. And you can see the value fields are empty in that in that dictionary. So yeah, I'll pop it the values with data last commit. Yeah, that idea to temper that a little bit brilliant, you know, acceptable. Thank you Chris for your. No, but it's not just commits right because they are working group people and stuff they don't have commits. Okay, so I, yes. The reason you're on the list somehow is displayed which can be the last committee if it's a Gita pre post. So I want, I want to, I'm like trying to click through over here as fast as I can to show you something. And faster ride faster. Yeah, I just, I don't have access to the admin interface in this browser. So this is a an overview that I set up for hyper ledger. This is all of the hyper ledger project. So if we go to the last one here, right. So that shows us what we would expect to see. This is for all of the hyper ledger GitHub stuff. However, so here's your source code control. Down here we have documentation confluence if we go down here for view more on confluence. You actually will see who are the confluence editors as it turns out Bobby vipin and I are, you know, up here and then the last action date is shown, you know, so we can get there. The data is the data is here. Why is he been saying he can't find his name because the script that I'm running right now doesn't include that. I think it's just only code code commits. It was just dummy data. So everybody who's listening. If you use it right now it's just dummy data. It's not a comprehensive list. It's not real data. It's just if you're not in the list don't worry about it we're just looking for feedback on this one. So I'm going to show as well. You can add a space filter here now I've added all the spaces for projects. And you can see who the top editors are and it looks like, you know, are no Tracy Hart, you know people that you would expect are the top editors here. So, yeah, we're working on it. We just wanted to let you guys know that we are thinking about this. And we're hoping to be more streamlined and more user friendly going into the election this fall. Thanks. At the risk of beating a dead horse and they Dan and Park angry about talking about election stuff more again. So, you know, these are good. But a lot of this stuff right presupposes that you actually know that I guess there's an assumption that you actually know that there's an election. Right. Because at this point, like, to know you're eligible to vote you're supposed to know about the election I guess what I was going to ask is and I probably missed this because somewhere. Is there a way for somebody to and obviously they could come here and if there's changes to like this particular list that has the hashes or something like that people could subscribe with a github idea and get notifications. I mean, we choose to use this voters thing so they know if there's something changing, but is there just something that where somebody should subscribe to to be updated about the election. Like, even if they weren't getting the end result where they get their ballot or whatever but is there just something that as you as we make announcements about the election or changes or even how to check if you're an eligible voter. Is there something that people can subscribe to like over time to just to care about voting. What we could do. The answer is no, other than like the TSC list probably, but what we could do is have a wiki page that is an aggregate of this and I think it exists. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I set up a page for the type 2020 election. Yeah, there's I have a page with the timeline on it that we discussed a few weeks ago on the TSC. Yeah, there you go the TSC election plan. Yeah, yeah, that's the timeline. Yeah, this is this isn't a public page though so I. Yes, they're there should probably be a page in the TSC space that is this. Right with all the links to all the tools and links to the rules that makes you eligible, all that stuff. So good suggestion here. So here it is right in the TSC space. So you could subscribe to this page. Okay. It obviously hasn't been updated a lot. Right yeah the election observers was settled. Same with the election voter selection that's been settled as well. So those are no longer blocking the election. Right, they're shown as close. Oh yeah they are. Okay. All right. Yeah, just wanted to let everybody know that we're, we're already working on making sure the TSC election this year is smooth and goes off without a hitch, as much as possible. Sounds good. Thank you. Any other questions. If not, I think that's the end of today's agenda. Is there anything else anybody else wants to bring up? I would like people to take a look at adopting this. We've discussed this several times. And I, I just, I want to get this done. You know, either say, yeah, we're going to use hips or no. And if the answer is no, I promise I won't be hurt. I won't cry. The reason that I didn't put a lot of effort into editing this is because, you know, it might be a no. But I think that this would be, it's more congruent with what the projects are doing. I don't remember who suggested this. I will blame heart for suggesting this. Just looking at the list of TSC members. So please take a look the codes out there, you know, please nitpick and let's do something about it. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. And I actually did look at it. I should have voiced my my opinion. I mean, I thought it looked good. And I thought, yeah, that's a good way to move. I'm, I'm supportive of moving in that direction. So let's, it's good that you reminded everybody it's out there. I encourage everyone to have a look. And then maybe we can make it part of the next agenda as a formal item. And we can have a further discussion or decision on this. I want to jump in here this day. There's very few things in the TSC meetings that I have like standing to really comment on. And I think the hip process, the RFC process is really important for us to adopt, mostly because of our software delivery process and being able to trace back changes to proposals and design decisions done in the beginning is really about the integrity and our commitment to software engineering correctly. Right. The ERSA project has been using RFC since the beginning. And I think a large degree of its cleanliness and its good software engineering comes from that. The ERSA project does not do things quickly. It's very conservative. And as it should be, it's crypto stuff. Why don't we review and discuss this over the next week and then see if there's enough consensus for a decision next week. Great. Thanks, Brian. Yeah, I just wanted to put my plus one on this. I really like it. It's good for us. I don't like it. And as we as we went through this, I was reminded, I mean, there's also this analytics tool that Ryan's been working on. And, you know, we had a quick overview last time. And I think it's quite promising. And I think, you know, one of the things that I'm thinking of requesting is for people when they put their quarterly report together is to have a link to their status page. And so we should think about this. Okay. So with this, I think we can close the call on that unless anybody else has anything else. All right. Thank you, everybody for joining. We'll talk again next time. Goodbye.