 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Paranjoy Gohar Thakurtha and with me in the studio I have a person. Well, he could have been my son. I am 63 years and he is 24 years. So there is almost a four decade gap between the two of us. But I must confess that he is far, far popular. Then I can ever hope to be. And with him, my weak Hindi. I will speak in Hindi in my third language. And I want to introduce you to YouTuber Dhruv Rati. Born on the 8th of October 1994. And that's something we share because I was born on the 5th of October 1955. Yeah, just like 40 years difference. Dhruv, could you ever have imagined when in April 2016 you started making these videos? And you made about 150 videos that your videos must be so popular that each video is seen by millions of people. And like you made a video on the Statue of Unity, you saw about 40 lakh people. And last November and December you made all the videos, 8 lakhs, 9 lakhs. Could you have ever imagined that your videos would be so popular? Not really actually. When I started, I had no idea how popular these videos would be. But I was always wishful that hopefully they would be so popular. So now I am happy to see so many people watching these videos. I heard that when you were 8 years old, you made a small animation video and used clay models. At that time, there was a TV program for children. Why did you suddenly think when you were just 8 years old? I don't remember what I did when I was so small. But yes, I was interested in seeing videos on TV like animated shows. I was interested in how they were made. So I tried to make them myself. By using clay models. And clay is not publicly available to the public. So people cannot associate with clay models. But I moved clay a little bit. It is called stop motion. Move it a little further and then take a photo. Move it a little further and take a photo. So you can make it for 24 frames per second. Absolutely. In the olden days, there were flip books. Yes, exactly. Dhruv, you grew up in Haryana till you were 17 years old. After that, you went to Germany. There, you studied mechanical engineering. After that, you did an M.Tech degree on Renewable Energy. And I heard that you are studying for another degree these days. This was politics. And law. Now that I am making videos like that, I want to do some more deep research. So I think it would be better to gain some more knowledge. So what I am studying now is political science, economics. And there is a little bit of law. Tell me one thing. You worked with Abhinandan Sekri in Newslaundry. There, he said that this video program, which is available on YouTube, has about 50 straight political views. And he said that 84% of the videos are attacking the Bharti Janta Party. I told him that there are so many populations of India who are under BJP rules. If you look at the states, there are so many states. In the last three elections, BJP has lost those states. But before that, you can say that around 70-80% of the population was ruled under the BJP. Though in 2014, the vote share of the Bharti Janta Party was 31.4%. And these votes, 90% of the votes in the Lok Sabha Junao, they were in only 299 Lok Sabha Constituencies. That means in roughly 60% of all the Lok Sabha Constituencies, 90% of all the votes of the BJP were concentrated. This means that it was a very good strike rate because you got about 90% of the votes in the Lok Sabha region. And you got 282 seats in Lok Sabha with 31.4%. But this is how the first pass of the post system works actually. And... And there's another phrase. Winner takes all. Winner takes all. This is not an ideal system, I feel, for our type of country. And we should take more inspiration from, like, maybe the German politics and what type of system they have. They have a combination of... Of first pass, the post. And proportionate representation. Yeah, exactly. We in the UK, the British, the Westminster-style of parliamentary democracy, we did it in a way. I understand that this is not appropriate for India. I don't think it's appropriate. Because this system actually, eventually what it does is it promotes two parties. We are not America. We are not America, but this system itself, first pass the post, how it works, it is a self-perpetuating system which just makes people vote for the two major parties. Let me give you a contrary viewpoint. BJP got 31.4%. Congress got 19.5%. Both of them got 49.9%. That means half of the elections. That means in 2014, Lok Sabha elections, half of those who voted didn't vote for either the Congress or the BJP. Exactly. They could have voted for a constituent of the NDA, UPA, regional parties, left anybody else. Exactly. But, this was where you can say, Modi Ji was successful. Yes. Like the American election, it became a two-person struggle. Exactly. The whole politics became a one-person struggle that it became Modi Banam Rahul. And there are so many people who vote that maybe they want to vote for a smaller party, but they don't vote for that party because they think that, what's the use of voting for this party? They say, there's no one to win. So, we choose someone from the BJP Congress. We vote for them. Because it becomes a fight of, you know, who is the least evil among them? I agree with you. There will be elections this time. I don't understand much. So, Modi Ji should try the same. Exactly. That I am Banam Rahul. But, They want people to think that there are only two options. Either they vote for me or Rahul Gandhi. You can do something about it. You will say that, Modi Ji, what did you promise in 2013-14? And where are you now? Exactly. So, it can also be Modi Banam Modi. Modi Banam Modi. Yes. I mean, 2019 Modi is actually fighting in 2014 Modi. The promises that Modi made in 2014 and the things that Modi will fight in 2019. Today, in the rural areas of India, there is a problem. On this topic, you have made your general awareness videos. Beirose Gaari. It's a huge issue. Today, in the half of India, the people's problem is the age of 25-26. In 2014, for the first time, more than two thirds of those eligible to vote, more than 66% of the people voted. So, there are issues that concern large numbers of people. So, when you see 2019, will it be a personality-oriented election or will it be issues that you couldn't do anything in the rural areas? You said that we will bring black money for 15 lakh rupees. You said that you will reduce the use of black money. Yes. I think it should be ideally an issue-based election, but politicians will want this personality-based fight and vote based on the image of the people. Nowadays, a lot of people say that look, Modi has made such a good image. Our country's image has become so good because their PR machinery is so good. Marketing? Marketing is so good. Now, some people get impressed by this. Some people get impressed by their personality. So, politicians want people to be impressed by this and vote based on their personality. For example, BJP projects Rahul Gandhi is a pappu. So, they want to bring this to the front that there is a personality-based fight. Will it be successful? Now, people will tell you how successful it will be. How many people will vote based on this and how many people will vote based on issues. I am going two steps back. Abhinandan Sekhri, after the isolation, said that your 50 videos on politics are almost 84% against the Indian party. So, look, India, you are a congressman. You are all videos to help the pappu. Definitely. These people have a very binary thought. They think that if they are making a video against BJP, then it will be a congressman. If there is no congressman, then what party will be left? It will be an ordinary party. If there is no congressman, then it will be a communist party. Some people don't even think about it. They don't think that much. They just say that it will be a leftist party. If Modi doesn't support them, then it will be a leftist party. But the truth is that the job of journalists is to keep the government accountable. And what I am seeing in mainstream media is that mainstream media is dancing on the signs of the government. Why are they dancing? When I became a journalist, in the time of apartheid, at that time, the government of Indira Gandhi and Sanjay Gandhi had a lot of journalists. The people who had done anything against Indira Gandhi were put in jail. And after 77, when Lal Krishnan Advani Ji, Muradji Desai's government, Sujna and Prasaran Mantri were made, he was asked this question. Why were there so supportive of Indira Gandhi? And he had a well-known statement. When they were asked to bend, they crawled. When the editors were asked to bend, they crawled. So they were ready to do that. Do you think that editors are crawling without even being asked to bend? Yeah, I do think so. They are thinking of their own benefit somewhere. They think that if they do that, they will be safe on the safe side. Their business will go stable and they will be profitable as well. The government has made a profit. Exactly. And you also know that the Indian party has made a huge profit. Exactly. So this pure commerce, business. Yes, pure business. There is nothing else in it. No, there is nothing else. Because the same chance that BJP is praising, the government of Congress is coming tomorrow. So they will be following Congress as well. They will start praising them if they see a business sense there. A few days ago, A&I's Sampadak, Smita Prakash Ji, was interviewed by PM Modi. It was more than an hour long. Later Rahul Gandhi, in his press conference, said that he was a pliable journalist. He didn't mention his name. But everyone knew who he was talking about. After that, Smita Ji answered that it is a cheap shot. What do you want to say about it? I didn't see Rahul Gandhi, but after watching the interview, I felt that this is not an interview. Modi Ji was sitting there and talking about his mind. It was called an interview. Because the journalist was asking questions. He was asking very good questions. He was asking the same questions that people had in their minds. But from Modi Ji's side, the answers to those questions were the same, which he used to say in his mind. He used to count his achievements. There were no counter-questions. From this, it is known that this thing cannot be called an interview. The interview is so real, so scripted, it will be known by looking at counter-questions. Our interview is going on now. You can see that the conversation is so flowing. You are asking so many counter-questions based on my answers. You are asking so many questions that you have already written. I mean, whatever I say, it won't make any difference what your next question is going to be. Okay. Next question. Ravi Subhadl, when you were a colleague, you said that the YouTube videos you are making are making a website Patreon, crowdfunding. How long have you been doing this? And do you think it is a viable way of countering what you say? What Ravish says, Godi media. There are different types of dogs. One is a hawk, and the other is a hawk, and the other is a dog and it is said that Godi is sitting quietly, and if Godi is a well-known politician or a corporate boss or a government officer, then he is sitting quietly. I had started this maybe over a year ago, and as one person, I think this is a sustainable model. It can work. But now because I am just one person, I don't have a big production house like the one we are talking about and where other people are employed, then this is able to sustain. Patreon as a model is able to sustain. Because your expenses are negligible. Of one person it is negligible. But if this thing where 10 people are employed, it is not sufficient according to this earnings, it is not sufficient to sustain. Look, if the people in Mukhya Dharam want to take money from a Wigya Pandata who lives in Wigya Pandata the government the politics the Poojipati if you are running your organization with their money then how can you say this is a successful model to counter the mainstream media in today's day and age in today's day and age of the internet. Yes, I do think it is a successful model in that sense because it is a decentralized model so if one person has donated more than 100 dollars then if one person doesn't have so much power that he can influence me that what I am doing is wrong according to that person then I shouldn't do this. When one person is paying a brand or a CEO or board of directors or their investors they can influence them. If one person gives you a lot of money they won't give it in a written form if they say don't do anything against me and the rest you can't tip the world you can't abuse but I am giving you a lot of money so you should be grateful don't do anything will you accept? It depends on the type of person who is giving you money Bill Gates gave you 1 million dollars and it is written that you don't even say a word against Bill Gates and Microsoft don't put out one word against them you will accept? Bill Gates is involved in politics he is old but it is a very difficult question but I will not do it You in social media and YouTube facts or math opinion and information and you have tried to correct wrong facts sometimes you have been successful sometimes you have put out wrong facts what are some of the biggest mistakes you make in putting out wrong facts and how did you correct yourself? I think there was one video what was it about it was made on the Ayushman Bharat scheme and in that video the first fact I presented it was some data point on how many people are going in poverty because of lack of health care and the data which I presented that in 2017 so many people went into poverty because of lack of health because they could not afford health care expenses that was actually a wrong fact in reality the data was for 2012 I wrote it in top comment that it is wrong and the reason why it is wrong is interesting that where I saw the article of Times of India it was not written in 2017 Times of India was wrong it was wrong I do not see one source I see multiple sources I saw the business standard it was written in 2017 but what people pointed out there was an India spend report it was written in 2017 in India spend report but they corrected it they corrected it in 2012 but Times of India had sourced from India spend so Times of India did not correct and what I saw later was from Times of India business standard so you wrote all this and said I wrote in top comment that this data source was from 2017 not 2012 that comment is pinned on that article so anyone who will see that video will see the comments you are making a video you are ready to apologize to your viewers our politics should also be like this definitely you should apologize to Mr. Modi that so many people got worried for the note actually Mr. Modi wants to show himself as if he is a superhero he never makes a mistake he is a perfect person because till today he has not apologized for any wrong work demonetization is a kind of blunder even if you ask a BJP supporter he will say that he was a failure but still in his interview this happened this is beneficial he has no intention to apologize but as a public servant as a prime minister he should definitely apologize Dhruv you are ready to correct these facts but can opinions be anything opinions can be anything let me tell you with your opinion that the Rajasthan government that was the government of Basundar that if in the elections in the panchayat someone wants to be a candidate then at least class 10 its minimum educational qualification you don't like this because the Congress government took it back what do you think the so called illiterate they don't understand and they cannot be representatives of the people when I tweeted there were very good counter opinions under that tweet that you gave counter opinions that they are not represented well enough the poor people and they don't have the chance to be represented if this law is made so I agree with that counter opinion its a very good opinion and it is a very debatable issue but from my point of view it can be argued that education is free for all education is free for everyone so this education is not a privilege I agree with you we also have an act we have the law of education but the implementation of it is another story I have to say that in the census in 2011 it was written that every 4 people still they cannot write their own name cannot sign their own name this is not my figures this is the figures of the 2011 census how can you exclude such a large proportion of the population from standing as representatives and that too in the panchayat elections in the same way there is a qualification for any job like an IS officer you have an entrance exam you need to fulfil some basic criteria to get that job I feel that politics is also a job although it is a representation of people but in the end the work they have to do is a basic knowledge you can learn it yourself there are 2 professions where you don't need an educational qualification one is the one way to you and I journalism and the other is politics don't need any educational qualification you have become a successful journalist because you are able to communicate it doesn't matter whether you have degree A, B or you have failed similarly in politics but as a journalist I was like an 8th fail student maybe I would not be able to communicate maybe not maybe not but as a politician for a journalist it doesn't matter if you become a journalist you will get a salary or you will get crowdfunding if I am not good at communicating I may not get crowdfunding but in politics in politics it is not possible to do the work so you cannot remove it if you become a politician you will have to wait for 5 years do you believe a poor person an illiterate person is unintelligent do you think a poor person is uneducated doesn't understand it depends what is the definition of intelligence here absolutely you can be very well educated and be a terrible human being you may have a PhD degree but the world will judge how good or how bad you are definitely you did a lot of interviews in 150 videos you interviewed the main minister of Delhi Manish Surya you interviewed you are an activist of Pakistan against the army against Pakistan you why did you interview them what is the specific reason that you chose let's go to these three people Manish Surya and I am sorry I don't remember the name of the Pakistani activist who spoke against the army Ahmad Vaqas Goraya thank you no I don't think there was a specific reason most of my videos are not based on a lot of planning that I want to make this video after a month which I feel what I should make videos on I make those videos pure on your impulse mostly it's based on impulse but when I have impulse that I want to make this I make videos on it why did you interview Shahzad Poonawala again it was an impulse at that time he was pro congress he was pro congress now he is pro BJP yeah it looks like that it looks like that I mean from the he praised congress yes he praised he defended dynasty politics in some sense you can see the interview it's on youtube and the corruption in congress party and the minority appeasement these three were the main topics on which the interview was and he justified the congress yeah he defended on those issues subsequently you have not interviewed ask him why he has changed his mind not really I have not talked to him regarding that and you don't wish to no I didn't feel like I mean there were more relevant issues my last set of questions to you how does one counter the spread of fake news and hate speech on the social media you are trying to do something there are many others who are trying to do something alt news is trying to do something boom live is trying to do something many people are trying to ensure that facts are checked that whatsapp has in encryption you can't control what people put up the most ghastly gory inflammatory incendiary materialists put up on whatsapp and in the run up to the elections we can expect more of that how does one counter it it's a very difficult question and honestly I don't know the answer to this question what is one successful way of countering fake news or hate speech but I have tried many things and I do try to do different things to counter them like for example I have like one group which is the Dhruvarati squad in which I ask people to report any fake news or hate speech which they see on facebook because on facebook it's really common actually facebook the same organization whatsapp is part of the same family instagram is part of the same family the difference is that facebook and twitter they have a system of receiving complaints it's different that someone called us MC BC and their algorithm will think MC master of ceremonies and BC before christ this is a very difficult work actually as a social media organization because the physical team will keep on checking and how many users are there it's a very disproportional figure it can't be that we should report something and they have a person on twitter who says it's true who says it's wrong it's a very difficult work I think million means over 10 lakhs people also know that you were born in Haryana you have been here for 17 years you have studied after that you went to Germany you did mechanical engineering you worked on renewable energy but why are you so secretive about your location are you are you scared are you scared no it's a it's a safety mechanism you can say like just to be safe I think that private life should be separated from public life you are a public figure how can you separate your private life from your public life once you become a public figure your private life is going to be scrutinized definitely microscope I have kept a secret that I don't want any interference an advantage is that I live in Europe so no one knows me I am just a normal person I have privacy there and in India you have become abnormal no, here people know me more thank you very much Dhruv for coming here it's a pleasure speaking with you and for our viewers you have one last message some message you want to give to them there is only one message I would like to give is that this is a lot of religion temple, mosque leave the issues and focus on actual issues while voting and when you have to vote then vote for your right MP from your constituency instead of looking at the because ours is not a presidential democracy once again thank you very much let me shake your hand once again and you have just heard and watched Dhruv Rathi he is a youtube sensation he is almost 40 years younger than me but he is very very clear about what the media can do and not do thank you very much for being with us on this program and keep watching New Slick