 Good afternoon. Howard Wigg, Code Green, Think, Tech, Hawaii, coming to you from Breezy, Shady, back of Manoa Valley. Welcome. Do you all thank you for joining us in an exciting show? We have Sarah Bauer, who among other things was a teacher at Main Street Scholars. She will be going on for her advanced degrees per next year or so is just about to graduate from UH in global environmental sciences, which I didn't even know existed. And I suspect most people in the audience didn't know existed, barely recent discipline and one that is really, really sorely needed. I think we can all agree on that. Welcome to Think, Tech, Hawaii. Sarah and Carbon Tech, you have a really unique perspective on this based on your UH education, I think, of looking not at individual behavior, not at the micro level, but much more at the macro level and policy. What does policy sound so gosh darn boring? What does policy have to do with ameliorating climate change and carbon tax? Please take it away Sarah and welcome. Thank you so much for introducing me. Yeah, so I'm graduating from UH Manoa this Saturday with my degree in bachelors of science in global environmental science. So I've been spending the past four years learning about planetary sciences, the science of climate change and whatnot, and yes there has a lot to do with policy, at least in our ability to affect climate change. So while I wish it was something that I could change on an individual level or you could change on an individual level, it's going to require a lot more work than that and it's going to require policy. So essentially policy is going to let us address climate change at a structural level. And I do realize that policy a lot of times has more of a dry connotation, people usually just think politics and corruption and whatnot, but there's a lot we can do in order to attack climate change by changing our policies. And currently, there's been a lot of lobbying from oil and gas industries so they have kind of been able to lead the direction in which our climate policy has gone and ensuring that they get the subsidies and that oil prices and whatnot are always kept below. So the main thing that I want to talk about today is using carbon pricing mechanisms in order to reduce our carbon emissions so a carbon pricing mechanism is something where we put a price on carbon in California they have a cap and price term throughout the UN we have there's a carbon tax and one of the first places where a carbon tax was introduced was actually in Sweden where my mom is from and they introduced it back in 1991 I believe and by the 2000s they already had like a 20% reduction in carbon emissions. Now it's much more and at the same time they had an increase in GDP growth. So the thing that I'm most excited about is if we're able to introduce a carbon fee and dividend. The first thing I'd want to talk about is a little bit of background so to start in, if you imagine a graph that shows how our carbon emissions have been increasing since the 1900s it's pretty exponential it just goes straight up like that. And currently we are producing about 50 billion tons of CO2 emissions at an annual rate. So we're really putting out a lot of greenhouse gases and the effect that this has on the planet is that it traps in more heat, and thus we see this temperature increase, and we have all of the climate change problems that are associated with that so in Hawaii we're going to see a lot of problems including sea level rise, increase in hurricanes, across the world we're going to see drought and we already are seeing that drought as well as the increase in fires and what not. So a lot of people are going to be losing their home from all of these climactic disasters. So something needs to change. So let me jump in and say a lot of people are going to say, wait a minute we're talking a worldwide problem. Hawaii has only 1.4 million people, which is 0.04% of the entire US population were just this teeny teeny little speck in the middle of the ocean. What difference could we teeny Hawaii possibly make the answer and this comes from decades of progress on my part is that people look to Hawaii for leadership. We go to national conferences, and we get respect. People come around they talk to us they invite us to speak and so forth. So, our power is way way exponentially beyond our teeny little population. So in that chair we hope please proceed. Thank you. You're exactly right. I think in 2018 it was, we were the very first state that announced we would get to net zero emissions, or to fully renewable by 2045 and since then we've seen state after state after state after state that trend and also announced that they're going to reduce emissions and try and get to a point where they're net zero by 2045. So perfect to perfect example, usually California leads the way. Little old Hawaii led the way in that regard that the perfect example. Thank you. But one thing you are really correct about is that right Hawaii is a very small population. And a lot of times we even look at individual action when it comes to climate change and that's something that was actually an idea propagated by a lot of these oil and gas companies BP actually produced the concept of an individual carbon footprint and came out with one of the first carbon footprint calculators if you've ever heard of that or maybe looked at your own carbon footprint. So, a lot of times these companies are trying to show that oh it's individual action that needs to change, and I am a huge prominent proponent of changing your own actions to help the climate right so. You still should, you know, reduce our meat intake and you should use a reusable water bottle and you should bring your own bag to the store, but you are a teeny tiny fraction, because it is 15 billion tons a year. The Americans, right in the United States we have a really big carbon footprint in comparison to a lot of impoverished or in developing nations. So, our carbon footprint is massive. So, it's about 16 tons per person, that is point 00000003% of the total global emissions, we are just a rounding error, we're teeny tiny percent that it was not zeros and then a three. So, even if you do go vegan, and you go to complete the zero waste lifestyle and you never drive a car again and you never get on a plane again. Your impact is negligible. Right. You still do those things because like with the Hawaii example, you do change the actions of others right and we have much more vegan products and stores it's you know pretty normal now to see everyone with a reusable water bottle and a reusable bag, and that is awesome. But that is not how we're going to solve climate chain. Just this last century just a few decades ago, we were having a huge problem with CSCFCs, chlorofluorocarbons that we're getting released into that atmosphere and totaling our ozone right we have, we're just creating this large hole in the ozone and that was from the release of these and we were able to change that we're using policy and we passed the Montreal protocol and all these countries agreed to stop releasing CSC's, but that required government changes that required structural changes, and it was amazing, and it took it was really amazing because it was fast we got all these impacts, but that was because the ozone is something that was decreasing at such a fast rate, we were going to see the impacts almost immediately. Climate change, we're seeing the impact slowly, and we're seeing the impacts first on impoverished and developing nations, and we see it less of as a threat to us so we've been stalling our attack on climate change and it's especially hard when we have these companies that have had so much money for so long, so that they can influence our politics by lobbying and making sure that they keep their subsidies and by increasing kind of confusion about whether climate change is real, it is and the vast majority of people believe climate change is real because it is it's just that we have some deniers, and they're very very loud, and these people who are loud are really good at causing confusion or trying to stir up debate when it comes to getting policy or things passed. But it's time that we start changing that and we start having policy that is going to help reduce our carbon emissions. And the best route for us to do that is by introducing a tax and reducing the negative externality that are carbon emissions. And what is a negative externality, it is something that we have essentially an unaccounted for negative effect. And when we have carbon emissions, it's not just the price that you know the oil company had to go get the oil. And then they sell it to the consumer because that's not the full impact of the oil it's not just, oh it was really expensive to get this stuff out. No, it's we're releasing it into the atmosphere and it's causing air pollution which is causing health problems for people. It is causing global changes. So our climate is changing our weather is changing. And we're going to see really bad effects pretty soon. So we need something to change that the international monetary fund is a big proponent of introducing a carbon tax or a carbon fee and dividend just like the one in Sweden, because it's one of the most powerful tools that we have. So they think that the, all the biggest carbon polluters and emitters in the world need to introduce a carbon tax in order to reduce our emissions so that we keep our warming to two degrees or less. All right, so now we I should probably tell you what is a carbon fee and dividend, because have you heard of a carbon tax before. So why don't you start with carbon tax and then say that's that, because that's something we're familiar with, and then say, as opposed to that here's what a carbon fee is all about. All right, so a carbon tax is pretty straightforward. So we put a price on carbon essentially so per ton of carbon that gets released we're going to say it's going to cost $10 $15 however much we want it to be. And you can have a tax and attacks is usually something you put a tax and the government collects and keeps the money. So you could put a tax on carbon emissions, and we can try and put that as high up as possible so we try and put it, take it to as high up as possible, and then sometimes we take it to the, you know, natural gas. People, and that's where the tax goes, and then the US government collects the money and if they collect the money maybe that would go towards renewable investment or somewhere else. The reason why it's so evident is also it's also referred to as a carbon cashback system. And the reason they call it a fee instead of a tax is because the government is no longer just keeping the money now. The money is going back to the people. And the reason it's important that the money goes back to people is when you have a carbon tax and right, as I said, we're trying to put up as high as possible so it's not on the consumer. Because the price goes up a little bit for all your carbon intensive products so your electricity bill, your, the price of the pump, but it's pretty minimal impact on people, especially higher incomes but lower incomes. If they're going to see, you know, this is a larger effect and they're not going to have the same ability to change for just a carbon tax. Sarah, let me interrupt again. You say we're going to raise it, put the tax at as high a level as possible. I assume that you mean you are will be taxing the corporations, rather than the individuals. Yes, thank you. Thanks for making that. So carbon is produced from coal, oil, and natural gas. All of those are hydrocarbons. That's where this CO2 is coming from. Yes, exactly. The burning of these fossil fuel resources is what emits carbon dioxide as well as other greenhouse gases. So the oil companies, right, they get the tax and they now want to, they were losing a little bit of money from the tax, so they want to put some of that on to the consumer. So if we return all the money that we collected as taxes and give it back to the people. Now, people aren't worse off, but the overall price for our electricity bill, if it's reliant on natural gas, if it's reliant on other electricity that is not renewable, it is going to be more expensive. So that switching to things that are more renewable or less carbon intensive are going to be less expensive. So it is certainly not renewable and anything else that's not carbon intensive, more cost competitive. So it helps to bring more renewable energy on board and it helps companies make that decision to change to renewable energies. So a little bit more context. So for the exact carbon fee and dividend that the group I work with citizens climate lobby are advocating for is a carbon fee and dividend a so revenue from the tax is returned to the people. It also be is one where it starts low, where it's a smaller tax maybe say $15. You know, and then we increase it by $10 every year. Then this creates something that's stable and predictable on the prices of oil gas fossil fuels and whatnot. There's some other techniques where if you had a cap and trade system you're essentially creating a carbon market and it can be really confusing because you have no idea what the price is going to be. This is something that's very stable, and you know it's just going to increase over time. So it gives companies it gives people the time to kind of adjust and to understand that these carbon intensive products are just going to get more and more expensive. So companies and utilities and people can start thinking ahead and saying, if I get solar panels now, if I get an electric vehicle now, if I do, you know, switch to anything that's less carbon intensive. I'm going to save a lot of money in the long term because I know that next year it's going to be $10 more in the next year it's going to be 20 and so on. The last thing that they're also advocating for within this carbon fee and dividend is a border tax or a border adjustment. So a border adjustment ensures that the US isn't worse off and that companies don't try to leave the US to do any of their carbon intensive. What not in other countries where they're not going to be taxed, but having a border carbon adjustment essentially means that if you're importing goods from another country into the US and there is no carbon tax, it's going to have a carbon tax placed on it. And that's something the US is about to face with the EU where they're going to have a border carbon or a border adjustment for carbon tax, because they have a carbon tax and we don't. Thereby, our products are going to get more expensive in Europe, because we don't have a carbon tax on our products. Sir, can you explain, I'm not clear the the tax goes not to the government, but it comes back to the individual can you explain how how that's going to work. It's mainly the corporations who are being taxed. And I'm gathering it's the individuals who do not use as much fossil fuel as they're the ones who are going to benefit or how does that work. So the way it works with dividends is you can give it back to every person on a monthly basis and we give it back equally so we try to make this revenue neutral. And then, no matter if you're low income middle income high income, you're getting the money back. So, I'm going to really simplify this because fuels out of the equation, right, let's say we have three people, high income person, middle income person and a low income person. And they're essentially they all have a carbon kind of consumption budget right so if you're your high income, you're spending more on your electricity bill for your big house. You're not having more but also just higher income people end up spending a lot, a lot more money on products and that even contributes to the amount of either your carbon footprint essentially so high income households essentially they have a higher carbon footprint middle income people have a middle medium essentially just lower carbon footprint than someone high income and low income people have significantly smaller of a carbon footprint. So these three people and these three different income categories, and they're going to have to contribute to this pool of money. And so the high income person, let's say they contribute $5 that that was their essentially with their spent on carbon in a month, the middle income person, they ended up spending $3 and so they contributed $3 of carbon intensive whatnot. The middle income person, they, you know, they didn't spend that much on products, but not they have a much lower carbon consumption for that month so they contribute $1. Now we have $9 in our pool of money from these three people. We're going to split it up evenly. So nine divided by three we have $3 each person gets $3 back. So it means that the middle income person they ended up just the same, though low income person ended up gaining $2, and the high income person ended up losing $2. Carb and carbon fee and dividend isn't this simple, but it means that people who have a really carbon intensive diet like a high income person, they're essentially contributing more money to this, because of all the products that they buy that are carbon intensive. And the middle income person, they don't do as much, usually the dividend ends that they get back that they're kind of going to even out and the low income person, they're going to end up better off. So, essentially we bring all this money in from the tax, and we return it evenly as dividends and this can be done by the, you know, tax systems that we already have in place with the IRS and a good example was, you know, the cares act and all the stimulus money that was sent back to people. So it would be sent back to households on a monthly basis. And all the studies have shown that most of the time for essentially low and middle income people are going to end up the same or better off. And then high income people might end up a little worse off. And that makes sense when if you're really rich, you're contributing more to the pollution of the planet. So then you have to pay a little bit more. It's kind of like if you have trash that to take out right you pay a fee for your trash to get picked up. You're really rich you buy a lot of things you throw a lot of things out you have a lot more trash to get picked up so your fee should be a little bit higher since, you know, it's a lot more, a lot more stuff to pick up. Yeah, Sarah what comes to mind is the super rich, where they might have a home on Maui, and another one in France, and another one in Fiji, and they've got a jet to jet themselves around. And when they get bored they've got a yacht to cruise around on that sounds like a heck of a lot of carbon consumption to me. That sounds the same to me. Yeah, so they end up having they end up having a much larger carbon diet, right. So they're going to end up paying for more of it and this way a carbon fee and dividend is really progressive and it can actually help low and middle income families in the in Hawaii actually we were really close to getting something passed or maybe not really close as maybe a bit optimistic, but it ended up dying in committee but it was called a carbon cashback and it was HP 2278. And it was going to be a carbon fee and dividend system, and it had been advocated for by citizens climate lobby as well as a lot of other environmental groups. And it partly got so far as it did because University of Hawaii you hero University of Hawaii economic research organization, they have done some studies on this, as well as lots and lots of other economists. And they were showing that right a it's progressive, but in Hawaii in particular, people would end up even better off, because we have so many visitors we have so many tourists coming in so they would be kind of providing to this pool of money. And then it would be given back in revenues only to the households that live in Hawaii so in Hawaii would be, you know, especially good for the people that live here. Because you'd be getting the money back not just for everyone living in Hawaii but everyone who's coming to Hawaii and right impacting our environment and buying all of these carbon intensive things. Yeah, I think we've been called something like an airline economy. Again, we have this small little population and Honolulu airport is one of the busier airports in the world. And then you combine that with all the neighbor island airports. I was recently in Maui airport. First time in a couple of years and it just keeps expanding expanding expanding. And that fuel is a major part of our economy. Yeah, it sure is. So I mean the you heroes study just goes to show, especially for a lot of low income countries, how a carbon fee and dividend can be a really good system because if you have all these other visitors coming and contributing to that tax, they're going to get a lot more money back so places with really high tourism are going to benefit a lot. And this would change if you were able to pass a, you know, national carbon fee and dividend which is, you know, kind of the ideal, because it would really, really help to bring down our emissions and help the US as an overall bring down our or help lower middle income and bring down emissions and kind of to show to the world, our commitment to climate change, because, you know, right now we're not really not fulfilling what we've said we were going to do. But to close but let me close on a cheerier larger note, namely that much of the social unrest that we are experiencing in this country is due to increasing income inequality. The richer getting much richer the super richer getting much much much richer, the lower 50% of our economic earners are either stagnant or even growing backwards, and that is causing a heck of a lot of anger a heck of a lot of frustration. So that that's a story that goes under all of this unrest that we're experiencing. So you are a good part you're proposing a major part of the solution here. And on that cheery note of, I'm afraid Sarah that we must bid fond of you. Thank you so much for your innovative ideas and participating in a very, very, very worthy cause and wish you all the best. Your career is just now starting. And I'm sure you'll be back at the legislature. Next session with probably a stronger group of allies to lobby for this. So thank you so much, Sarah Bauer. Thank you. Non-carbon tax. Yes, yes. Great having you. And all you listeners, see you next time. Howard Wing, Code Green, Think Tech Hawaii, aloha. Mahalo.