 So we have another programming related topic coming up. Price is right, negotiating prices to reduce performer and speaker fees. Presenting on this topic we've got Cheryl Lee, she's with Contra Costa County Library and we've got Kyle Hval with Mountain View Public Library. So let's get them set up. Awesome, good afternoon everyone, welcome. Hey Mike, can we cue the theme music please? There we go, coming to you live from San Francisco Public Library, come on down. You're the next contestant on the price is right, we need four volunteers. Kyle, can we pick four volunteers? And hurry you guys, we only have 30 minutes for this. And we got four. I think we just need one more. Anyone else feeling brave? And you guys are gonna stand in front of the podium, not in the back, yeah. Thank you. And then grab a whiteboard and a dryer race marker. There are four dryer racers up there, come on up. Okay, we got everybody with their whiteboards. Okay, so we're gonna start off with an easy one, okay? This is our practice round, Future of Libraries 2023. The retail cost of this program is $450. It contains one of the best values in library training in the Bay Area, offer six invaluable sessions here. Retail value 450. If you guys can do me a favor, you guys can write down how much the actual value is. Hurry, and audience, you guys are supposed to chime in. You're supposed to shout out, right? Have we all watched the prices right? I'm not hearing anything. I hear 600. Okay, we all put down a price. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Okay, we're still working. It's not that hard, you guys. Okay, okay. In three, two, one, you're gonna reveal to the audience. There you go. People said priceless, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Okay, now use your eraser. We're gonna start real, the real one. Get ready, you guys. And again, I want you guys to participate, right? This is a participatory session here, okay? And so yeah, you all paid about $30 to be here, so that's the actual price. That is the actual price. I should say we rounded up to the nearest dollar. Don't go over the amount, right? Okay, so the next one is the Bay Area Discovery Museum's Tri-Truck. It's an engineering lab on wheels, which brings hands-on steam programming to your library. Six interactive stations, great for families and kids, ages five plus. Retail cost $1,450. What is the retail, what is the actual cost? Audience, please. 26,000. To bring it to your library, you guys. Is everyone ready? Okay, three, two, one. Reveal. Okay, Kyle, who had the lowest value? I see someone said free, someone said 200 and 500. 500 wins. Oh, wait, no. Yep, 500 wins. What do they win, Kyle? Okay, you just went a round of applause. You win bragging rights. We told you guys this was reducing prices down, so you know our budget is zero here. Okay, next one, Kyle. All right, last one here. So at Mountain View Public Library, we hosted an author talk with New York Times bestselling author, Dennis Lahane, author of Mystic River, Gone Baby Gone. Several of his novels have been made into movies. How much do you think we paid? There was $10,000 retail. What do you think the library paid for this event? Our screen died, you're not supposed to see that yet. Oh, sorry, guys. Technical difficulties. Well, I saw someone said 7,000. I saw someone, spoiler, we got it for free. All right, so big round of applause for all of our volunteers here, thank you. Okay, so friends, why negotiate, right? What is the purpose of this? Thank you. Programming budgets are shrinking. I don't know about any of you guys, but every time I look at my budget, it keeps going down and down and down. Who has that happening right now? Yeah, feel bad for you guys. And also, there's a lot of less in-house programming because staffing is stretched. I know at Contra Costa, we're very, very stretched every day, and that's something, unfortunately, that a lot of you guys are feeling. And then hiring a performer or a speaker, it's less fun and work for all of you guys. Yeah, and also negotiating for a fair price. It also helps establish a fixed price or a ceiling for future events if you decide to hire that presenter again. Also, presenters continue to increase their honorariums with inflation, while, as Cheryl said, our program budgets are going down. So every dollar that you can save will give you more flexibility for the rest of the fiscal year, and it's gonna enable you to offer more robust programming for your community. Next up, we need to leverage our strength as libraries. For example, Contra Costa, we have 26 different locations. Obviously, we have the advantage of having multiple libraries and kind of that competitive advantage of negotiating down, especially if a performer is going to multiple different locations or a speaker is going to different locations. Also, sometimes you really get a discount when your performer or your speaker is very close to in proximity to your location, and then also the power of relationships, right? If you know somebody, it's also a lot easier to negotiate or you've had them at your library multiple, multiple times. You have already built that rapport with them, and so you can ask for a little bit of a discount, like, you know, sorry, you guys, my budget's really hurting this year. Is it possible, you love your performance at our library. Is it possible to negotiate that? Can we go a little bit down on that pricing? And also referrals, I think a lot of librarians do a lot of referrals, and so we get a lot of, hey, Kyle, I liked your performer, can we have them at our library? And then for my youth services librarians, obviously you guys know on-peak and off-peak pricing. Obviously, if you're gonna book somebody during summer reading, you know you're gonna pay really, really high costs, whereas if you book somebody, let's say, a magician, second week of January, you know you're gonna get a good deal because they're not gonna be booked as often. So, and I also, this is very controversial. I don't know, how many of you guys like to gamble? I like to go to Vegas a lot, and I like to gamble on people that have never been to any library, any speaker or any performer who has not performed before at any library, because you know why? I can get the best discount from them. I can actually get them for free because actually it could be used to build their portfolio, but I do have to mention that there are a lot of setbacks. I have crashed and burned on a lot of speakers where they looked very promising and just under delivered and were underwhelming. As my staff member at El Sobrante Library says, she goes, I go, how are you guys doing? She goes, we're vibing, we're vibing. So if you're vibing with the presenter, it's always a good thing because you can kind of talk to them and if you feel an intuition or you feel something, you know, you might wanna go with it. And again, Kyle, you said, think outside the box. Yeah, so it's important to think outside the box similar to what Cheryl is saying. Sometimes just because someone hasn't presented or doesn't typically present or perform at public libraries that shouldn't disqualify them. They might end up being an excellent fit for your library and you might be able to get them at a much cheaper cost than you would for your kind of typical go-to library performers. So for example, I was looking to book a performer who could appeal to single adults as well as families for our summer reading program and I stumbled across this really talented harvest from the Bay Area and on her website I saw that she performs music from the Legend of Zelda video games and this was right when the Tears of the Kingdom video game just came out and they're constantly selling out on the Switch or they're constantly being checked out from the Switch at our library. So it seemed like a perfect opportunity and I reached out, it was a really affordable rate and it ended up being the most successful program I've ever organized for an in-person event. It was like standing room only. So that just goes to show that sometimes thinking outside the box and looking for those people who aren't typically library performers can really be a good thing. How to negotiate, you guys. It's really easy. You could do it in three simple steps, okay? Here's step one. I think it's always good to look at performers at other libraries. I know you guys have done it. Don't be shy. I know you guys have looked at other libraries to see what other people have booked. We also wanna be cognizant of what other performers actually perform in that same category and how much do they charge. That's really important. And then of course, the big question is how much is your budget and how much can you spend? And so this is one. So I went to my favorite magician, Brian Scott, and look up there, I didn't even know why he quoted me on something but obviously this is from like umpteenth years ago. But this is a good place to start. Testimonials, because you can see that he listed the librarian, that bookdom or the school that booked him and you can always give them a ring, ring, ring and figure out how much did they pay for their performance because I'm gonna tell you every time I do that, a librarian's very forthcoming about like, oh I paid $400 for them or I paid $300. You know your fellow librarians are gonna tell you how much they paid. Now this is the caveat. This one for goodness sake, Snakes. Snake, Wrangler in the Bay Area, South Bay Area. And he listed his pricing on the website. Now the problem is you're not gonna be able to negotiate that much because it's just like going to a restaurant you guys and ordering a main dish and that's $15, getting meatballs, that's $15. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna tell the waiter, oh yeah, by the way. Sorry, I don't have $15 to pay for that. Could I get it for $10? Don't know if that's necessarily gonna go over so well at a restaurant. So just be cognizant of a ring, ring, ring and figure out how much did they pay for their performance because I'm gonna tell you every time I do that, a librarian's very forthcoming about like, oh I paid $400 for them or I paid $300. You know, your fellow librarians are gonna tell you how much they paid. Now this is the caveat. This one for goodness, Snakes. Snake, Wrangler in the Bay Area, South Bay Area. And he listed his pricing on the website. Now the problem is you're not gonna be able to negotiate that much because it's just like going to a restaurant you guys and ordering a main dish and that's $15, getting meatballs that's $15. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna tell the waiter, oh yeah, by the way. Sorry, I don't have $15 to pay for that. Could I get it for $10? Don't know if that's necessarily gonna go over so well at a restaurant. So just be cognizant but you notice there's a range. So I would start off at the lowest portion of the range and then go back and forth like ping pong. Yeah, and so once you are reaching out to the performer, it's important then to decide are you gonna call them or are you gonna email them. I think there's advantages and disadvantages to both. I would say know what your strengths and weaknesses are and use the format that best certs your personality and your workflow. Personally, I really prefer reaching out over email. The advantage there is that you have a written account of everything that you said, everything that they said. Lessons of the chance of important details being forgotten or lost in translation, which can go both ways. If I'm on the phone with someone, I'm cradling the phone like this and I'm typing here, it's a much higher likelihood that I'll forget something and then that can just cause problems later down the road. But Cheryl, I know you personally like the phone call. I love phone calls. My staff knows, I love talking on the phone. That's like one of my things. Why? Because I want an answer immediately. I don't have time to wait for that email to come in to figure out how much they're gonna charge because I want to move on to the next person if they're not gonna meet my price point. And so that's why I always like phone calls. It's just faster for me if you can get the person there. If you're calling on the weekend, obviously, with any children's performer, you're gonna have issues reaching somebody. But if it's on the weekdays, in the morning, you're usually nine times out of 10 gonna reach that performer. Yeah, and I would say always ask for their price first. Don't put a number forward yourself. It's best to see what they're gonna offer and then you can go from there. And also just make sure you ask for everything that you need. So whether that's the forms to fill out, like hey, you're gonna need to fill out a W-9 at some point or let them know if they need to sign a liability waiver if it's an in-person program. Sometimes those things can be deal breakers with presenters, so it's best to just get all of that information out of the way as soon as possible. Because the last thing you wanna do is think you're confirmed for a program and then you find out a couple weeks later, they're like, oh, actually, I can't sign that form or I don't feel comfortable and that just totally throws off your whole programming schedule. And also, kindness and respect really go a really long way. Presenters and performers, they receive a ton of unsolicited calls, unsolicited emails from librarians and other organizations trying to book them. And one great way you can set yourself apart is just by being really friendly and showing your deference and respect to them. Just express how grateful you'd be, how grateful your organization would be to host them. Explain why your community would be a good audience for their presentation. For example, I work at Mountain View Public Library. So I always mention whenever I'm booking presenters who specialize in the science or technology fields, I mention how, hey, our library is right in the heart of Silicon Valley. We have a ton of highly educated patrons in our community and they have shown a proven interest in these topics. And lastly, pad their egos. It never hurts to pad their egos. Presenters and performers, they're all human just like any of us. And if you just express that say, hey, you have a really, we really love your expertise in this particular subject matter and they'll appreciate that. So it definitely makes a difference. I've found. Agreed. Now, I know you guys are thinking about this. What happens if they say no, Cheryl, to my price? Here's my thinking. There's plenty of magicians. There's plenty of jugglers. There's plenty of authors out there. I would try another performer or speaker in that category, honestly. But if you really have your heart set on this particular person or this particular author, this is what I would do. I would try the ice, ice, baby method. So I usually say, thanks for quoting me that price. I need to check with library administration because that's quite a lot over our budget right now. And but if you want, can you hold that day and time for me? And let me get back to you in a few days. Sometimes icing them out a little bit and giving that kind of span of time can also help because sometimes I've had it where the performer calls me back and then they think about it and they go, well, you know what? Maybe I am booking a performance as close to her library. So yeah, it would make sense for me to book her program. And even if it's at a discounted rate, it's fine. We've had that happen and it does happen. And sometimes two, three days later you call back and they say, hey, you know what? Yeah, but if not, you can basically confirm that price. And if that's where let's say it's $500 and let's say you were okay with that, just go ahead and book it. But just remember that that is the benchmark price so that if you try to book subsequent years or you want them to do a follow-up, it's gonna be at that price point or higher. And so what happens if you have a presenter or performer in mind that you think would be great for your library, but you know that they're probably gonna be way too expensive? Contact them anyway. The worst thing they can do is say no or just flat out ignore you. So just get over your fear of rejection and reach out. You have nothing to lose and potentially a lot to gain for your library and for your community. Also be upfront about your budget restrictions without giving a number. I always tend to include a kind of a disclaimer sentence in my initial email when I reach out to presenters. I'll say I will warn you that as a smaller library, public library system, we don't have a very large programming budget. However, we think you'd be an excellent fit and we'll do our utmost to accommodate your needs. By including that statement, it kind of lets them know from the get go that you probably won't be able to match what their typical fee is, but it also kind of softens the blow a bit when you do offer a specific number within your budget. Also, it's important to demonstrate flexibility in these scenarios. So maybe offer to do it virtually. Maybe offer rather than in person so they don't have to worry about travel costs and it's more convenient for them. Or you could offer to format the program as a more informal Q and A interview rather than a solo presentation. That's less work for them and the easier you can make it for them to say yes, the more likely they'll be able to say yes. And also just in my experience, high profile presenters and authors might be more willing to negotiate than cheaper or mid-tier presenters because they have a little more financial freedom and they might be more willing to agree to a discounted rate. So example one, Jim Butcher. So at Mountain View Public Library, I booked bestselling fantasy author, Jim Butcher. I made a point to be very kind and respectful in my message when I initially reached out. Similar to what I said earlier, I demonstrated why we would be so excited to host them, said, hey, I'm a huge fan. Our fellow librarians are big fans. Your books circulate so well at our library. We think you'd be an awesome fit. Also told him about our sci-fi September series of events that we host every year where we celebrate science fiction and fantasy and said, hey, you would be the perfect headliner for this series of events. And again, I offered to interview him rather than having him prepare a solo talk. And I included that disclaimer statement I mentioned earlier about the fact that we're a smaller public library system. We don't have a ton of money, but we'd love to try to meet his rate. And he ended up agreeing to do it for free. And it was a huge success. We had, I think over 100 people log into the Zoom session and the YouTube video now has like 11, 12,000 views on our YouTube page. Wow. And example two, we already mentioned that in the beginning part, but Dennis Lehain usually commands around 10,000, even for virtual talks. But for public libraries, I'm personally a huge fan of his work, so I've listened to interviews with what he's done in the past and I know he's a really outspoken advocate for public libraries. So I included that in my message and said, hey, that's so great that you're such a outspoken advocate for public libraries. You know, I'm a huge fan. Your books circulate really well in our collection. And I offered to interview him instead of doing a prepared talk. And we did it virtually and he agreed to do it for free. And it was a wonderful event. So again, just because you think they're out of your league, you should still reach out anyway. Worst thing to do is say no. Okay, now here's the most important thing. Once you get that price together, you need to lock it in. So immediately, I would not wait to send this email. You need to take control of the email. Don't let the performer take control or the speaker take control. You're gonna email them. You're gonna tell them what price point you got to. And then it should include the price. It should include the date and the time and the location of where the performance is. Here's the key. What is included and what's not included? I have to say, I had one magician who likes to bring his little kid. Maybe you know this magician. I'm not paying for the kid, okay? I'm sorry, I have a real hard time with child slave labor. And I'm not paying for this kid. So I don't want the kid in your magic show, period. Or there was one that has a dog in their performance now. I'm like, I didn't book the dog. I booked you guys. So just make sure it's included and what's not included. Also let them know if you have performances before or afterwards so that they know what time they can set up and clean up as well. And method and payment schedule. I did have one story of a cultural performer who had gotten married. And so the check name that they gave me was their main name. And then they changed their name because they were married and I booked them like three months in advance. She comes back to me and she goes, oh yeah, by the way, I need a new check. Because you know why? I changed my name. I go, you know what? Too bad, lady. Sorry, I'm heartless. I was like, I'm sorry because it's gonna cost us 25 bucks or 50 bucks for a bounce check. So I gotta go get our friends to cancel the check and then I have to reissue that check. That's gonna cost some money. So just make sure you're very upfront about what you want, how you want it and how it's gonna be laid out. And Kyle, you said never sign any contracts? Yes, and just also building upon that payment method thing. Sometimes people really don't wanna have paper checks. I've had that issue with performers and presenters before where I've confirmed with them, think we're all good to go, and then I explained the fact that we're gonna pay them with a paper check and they say, oh no, no, can you do Zell? Can you do PayPal, whatever? And then if you can't accommodate that, then they dropped out. So it's important to just be clear about that from the get-go. And yeah, never sign any contracts. The city's attorney office for whatever organization you work for will not be happy with you. I remember you guys. Everything is? All right, we're on it. In case you need to reach us, you need Kyle's email template, you need my calling methods, you know where to find us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Do we have time for questions? Maybe like five minutes for questions. Anybody have any questions? You can also email us too. Oh yeah, that would be important, the mic. Our presentation was crystal clear. No, I'm sorry, there are questions. One challenge that we have is that our staff likes to over promise funding because they know we have it and so they try to like promise funds to people like, oh, the library can pay you $300 for that and then we have to kind of back them down off of that. Do you have any suggestions for how to wrangle in unruly staff? It's all about communication, right? Communication, communication, communication. You need to get to your staff and tell them, hey, you know what, no. And set that ceiling price for them before they actually start calling or start emailing, maybe you need to have a discussion with the staff and go, you know what, what are you thinking about booking? You know what, this is our ceiling for it. No more than this and make it like less than what your budget was and see if you can do it that way. If you need any more strategies, I got some more. I just wanted to know if those presentations that sci-fi author and also the other author are those available? Yeah, so the Jim Butcher author talk that we did for Mountain View Public Library that is on our Mountain View, so just go to YouTube, search Mountain View Public Library, Jim Butcher, it'll pop right up. The Dennis Lahane one, he actually did not let us record that event. So that was also one of his caveats. So that's also, you know, be flexible. Of course, I would prefer he would let us record it, but you know, the last thing you wanna do is to break something like that over not being able to record it. And we kind of build it as, oh, a special conversation, you know, and that was a way to kind of incentivize people to show up live for the Zoom talk. I was hoping, could you each speak briefly to how this intersects with your like DEIA focus at your libraries? Because that's something that gives me pauses. I wouldn't want to underpay somebody from our community. You know, even if we're working with a partner organization who's willing to do it for free, maybe they're worth more than that. And I wanna support this work in my community. So you can, can you speak to how that fits into your perspective? Sure, I'll take that. Yeah, go ahead and pay them, sure. If that's what you feel, if you feel they're worth it, go ahead. But I hate to tell you this, not everybody's budget is as plentiful as yours or mine or anybody else. You know, we're all working with different budgets, we're all working with different confines. But yeah, if you wanna go ahead and pay for the person because you think they're important, yeah, of course, pay for them. But this is for folks that maybe have dwindling budgets like myself and others. Yeah, and I was just gonna build on that and say that if it's something that I think is really important for the community, I always try to lobby my supervisor to say, hey, I think that this presenter we really should pay more, can we offer on the higher end? I know 600 is kind of like the max that we can typically offer for any particular event. So like for instance, we did one, it's like the neuroscience of implicit bias. And that was one where I really lobbied for us to go for a higher fee. Add on to that one. You know, and then also we may need to shift our paradigm a little bit. Having that person perform at your library may give them more exposure to other libraries and other locations where they can be booked at. So you know, you also have to think about it from both perspectives as well, exposure for both ends. I think we're good. And Rebecca, I think we're ready for a break. I'm always right behind you. Okay, yes, thank you everyone. We are gonna have our final break. Please do return. We have a couple of very exciting presentations coming up just to get you excited, responding to hate, lessons learned about LGBTQIA plus programming and policy enforcement through an equity lens. So two very important topics. So we hope to see you back here at 2.30.