 And we're back with conversations, so diving into a first major conversation right here on the breakfast and plus TV Africa, I guess it's already a poised to the justice of this topic. Well, 19 northern governors and traditional rulers in the region, that's northern part of Nigeria, have called for the amendment of the 1999 constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria to give legal backing to the concept of state policing. Now this they said is the only way to tackle the myriad of security challenges facing the region and the country at large according to them. And they're saying among these are mandatory insurgency, kidnapping and other forms of criminalities. This recommendation was contained in our communique issued at the end of the meeting of the Northern Governors Forum and Northern Traditional Rulers Council held in Abuja according to reports that we have. The outcome of the meeting was released on Tuesday, and it was the first time the Northern Governors sitting together with traditional leaders in the region made a strong case for the need to allow states to establish police forces. Now glad to say joining us to discuss this all important issue is a legal practitioner with a base for international law. Chief Fesis of Buche, good morning to you and thank you very much for your time. We're glad to have you, not just because you're a lawyer and you're really very well poised to do a justice to this subject, but also because you come from the Northern part of the country, albeit the middle belt, are you surprised by this call by the 19 Governors of the North, we can call them the kings of the North, and the traditional rulers of that part of the country saying enough is enough. We won't stay policing now. No, because we are not surprised at all. I would say that it's coming a little too late, because this is something that also has been done for a long time. I think the problem of the practice of what is for communities is that these are major, these bandits that are attacking all over the place and killing people which want to abandon you. The call for police has been there for quite some time. And I think the problems that have been set to this country, it's true not to have been a call for police alone, but to call to decentralise a power that depends on the state. You know, in so many areas that also are so far away, what's the point of that? I don't think it needs to be done, but there's a lot of things to do. I would say that the call for police is to know that. I'm not surprised it's something that will inevitably come to be. Because you cannot expect these people to be helpless. I went for the Nigeria police that is bogged down with its competence and inertia to come in to stop these attacks and what have you. The communities also have a right to protect themselves, whether police or no police. So, even though you are questioning the rationale for these Afragans to provide them up and saying it is a criminal or it is against the laws, I don't think you know what it means for self-defense. Somebody who lies, who lies is at stake. You know, they have the right to protect themselves and exercise themselves and that means bringing in several different weapons. And they came with those reports that nobody knows how they operate. They are not to have the same problem like the United States. And they are now running over themselves on how to have a strong control. Everybody only has arms. The proper thing is to bring it to the law and allow states to have their own police forces regulated by certain conditions and in a manner that can be stable, in a manner that is very much in tune with the laws of the land. I think it is a very good call. And something actually looked at very clearly. All right. We recall that a certain governor or government, state government, went to Zamfara state, had said they are going to, you know, had told residents to buy guns and defend themselves, you know, in Zamfara state. And they said that the government leaders came out to clarify that they meant they were going to do it within the ambits of the law. I mean, they had to do the purchasing of the guns and weapons for their citizens and residents in Zamfara state. Also, before that governor, Aminu Bello Masari of Katzina state, had also told his citizens to arm themselves against invaders and against those who are bandits or terrorists, those who are threatening their security. And before that, about two years ago, the governor of Benu state, Samuel Otomo had also asked his citizens to carry up weapons, and defend themselves. What is going on in the northern part of the country? You know, let's just look at that in the context, this is the context of that situation. And is this the solution in the context of what is going on in the northern part of the country? We've been privy to the BBC documentary on bandits of the north of Delhi, trust a reporting documentary on banditry in northern Nigeria to give a bit of an exposition as to what's happening. But I'm sure you'll agree that it's not the same in the middle belt or even in all parts of the north, east, north-west and north-central, you know, different situations and scenarios. But can you just take us through what you think is a problem and whether this whole issue of taking up arms to defend yourselves and state policing can address these issues, these problems? Well, it is rather awkward that there wasn't something that would help these big tactical problems and themselves. You know, in the modern world, it's nearly as if they have self-destructive power and it's not one of the primary difficulties for the existence of people. When that fails and it's not protected, they are being helped themselves because of the team that is fighting themselves. That's the responsibility of the state. And I think if you can talk to your folks in that direction, the program may also have taken very decisive measures to ensure that the citizens are protected wherever they are. But you'll find yourself compounded as it comes for you to wake up in the morning and see people who said, if they had dead people killed, really that is needed and to put in health care. And the great thing is going on from bandits who call themselves drug-dosed whores. And you are totally helpless because you cannot, as a single individual, go into the religious or economic forest to fight them. And you find that the security architecture of the country is also helpless or maybe emasculated or working by whatever I say is that it's wicked in them and to making them not to be very responsible and not to have to be liars of the problems of Nigerians but which they have physically and emotionally. So it's a very rather terrible situation going on in the north. Those of us down in the south there are very lucky that they wake up in the morning and they're supposed to be heading for the invasions of communities to all over the place. And that has been the basis of its position given by the president that this group came from Libya and I would not want to say that in a general place to reply to the Nigerian people to ensure that this is not really being or stopped in whatever manner is possible because that's the effect of personal responsibility. Every day we hear that they kill that person to put a number of Boko Haram and bandits and all that but in the practical sense not to be anything on ground and this is what they have to be gathering for prices because first they'll be there. It's especially the north is really dire I must tell you briefly. And it's also the authorities responsible to take a very good course towards ensuring that that situation is not meeting. But the management must come in from that direction so it's not out of the place for the governors that the extractor will have to meet and demand that the police be allowed to function and they can do it contemporaneously with the Nigerian police in Ukeba Manai subject to certain regulations and conditions over their conduct and moods operatic. It is also important to point out that it's not just the issue of the fleet alone we must despite the aspects of the issue in terms of the structure in terms of the central allocation of power to the citizens and the federal government is responsible to be there and to the citizens and officials at the end of the... From the first start taking the competence of the areas and the federal government has everything it makes you open up the talks about the knowledge makes you laugh the most they mostly go and talk about the experience of state police the sense of the game that the military has to redefine because it's better that every Nigerian will have access to their protection or to treat it in terms of internal interaction and internal expression all this is most likely to be but like I said earlier the situation in the north is much higher. The chief of defence staff General Lokirabohad responded to Governor Bello Matawali's government's call for residents and citizens of Zamfara state to arm themselves saying that the security agencies including the military were there on ground and capable of defending the people now some experts have said time and time again the Nigerian security structure is capable of dealing with the current threats being faced by the country shouldn't we be looking at that and looking at why they're not doing their job the job that they have done successfully in other parts of the world including Liberia and Sierra Leone we normally would say shouldn't we be looking at the issues the core issues behind what's going on why a certain Kaduna state will be overruns in a way by bandits where they can go pick people up and call them captive for 186 days without any hope of government rescuing these captives where they can snatch people at will on the popular Buja Kaduna highway in a state that has military establishments and institutions of repute should we not be looking at the core issues the root causes of why we're where we are that the officials have given the answer that's an indication that there was more than the I that was I think typically I was not trapped in a situation where we're going to self-help we're trying to defend ourselves when we have a box of grounds we have this very large amount of money that's allocated to security and VA to go up here all the time we have a military military system that is modern and of course and has all the assets where we're supposed to so these insurgents or whatever they will give it it is very it is more than the cost of the day it's the responsibility the responsibility to protection you know how did these people get into this cost because from my own analysis from what Mr. President said these people have fallen out of the cost of other costs and if you look at them physically they are not even Nigerians a couple of them are we arrested we are seeking a fresh slowness and you see this was also the tip that our insurgents came destroying our community of things and government appears helpless that was how this thing was going to happen and you can see the security aspect almost collapsed and that's the general director of distance taking to a system of destruction and helplessness I will say that the government has thought this very thorough exactly that it's dry so we have to provide to the people who doesn't have that for instance I can tell you that when the headsmen entered the they could speak if I'm not mistaken the government the government the government the government the government in terms of the security they say they have the right people movement that right allow me to move the defense for it and there are several instances that the government shown that the government has a good sense of positivity and is very much committed to it and we have to have to invade the state for instance where killing is a long time implanted state and they show that the but... they come to show their hands they want to get there so it's a place that properly saturation to go after the boundaries for their own self cover I do not show I think they're offering to show their eyes this year had an opportunity to sit down for an interview and this issue was brought up and he simply said it wasn't an option in the search for remedies for the country's current security situation. This is centralizing of a policing system in the country or creation of state police like it's normally called. President said it was not an option, it was a no option. So are these calls not a waste of time seeing the president has already said no this cannot happen? This is not a president, we are in action. We know, like I said, that we have a very complex that's why I'm telling you that also pandering to the interests of the president, you know, no matter how much, you know, the president has not decided to put out the act that no, it's going to be allowed. That's why I'm telling you that approval for the state police and it's passed as deal and it's bringing it for him and he rejects it or he refuses to or declares to put it in the digital law. It goes back to the president that we need. In both houses, we'll make a thing that I don't have a right to do. That's how the democracy works. That's how the system works. So it's not that the president will say absolutely, it's not like, it's not that he talks about it's not that he doesn't understand what this country is all about. For people that haven't seen me because it was all about the state, you know, the pandering, the structuring has been very simple to the country, to the problems of the country. Now, I said, no, I don't want to decide. It's just for the people. So many things reside in the people. He's only a symbol of that, obviously. And a part of that, he has subject to whatever he does, it's subject to whatever he's not going to tell people, gives them all the time for it. So I think it's very, very clear that there must be a very effective style to some of these very important vital issues of national interest. That must be taken to the perspective of people of the democratic system, understanding also that they have it for two systems that operate in the manner that makes it very to free and over time to arise and overrule any other contact of the state. So if that's not something very much necessary, because the legal parties are with you, if the president of those acts, he can decline to assess them as long, if he goes back to pressure them, they get it faster, they become slow. But I think it's very, very important. And also, if you are looking at this on the other side, you're also saying that there's a possibility of having these states to take to this condition and giving them a death pressure, giving them a use as a symbol of the data against the aftertaste there and that's what's going on there. That's what happens with the relation of political authority to these systems. In the first form, the government has a huge policy that's faster than it. It puts in the right people, in the political affairs, people who are out to add value to the democratic process. This kind of happening out there, you like, I think what's happening, he must be out in there. Other aspects that all of them have, it's time for you to fight off things. Yeah, talking about Ebu Beago, of course, Otom who called on the citizens to be armed as a citizen created his own internal security vigilante group of sorts, a naval watch. You know what has happened in Rivers State in the past, where the governor tried to set up a naval watch. Maybe we're inching closely, ever so closer towards that inevitable point of having a state police. And like you said, Festus Oguche, chief, the power resides in the people. And you said, even if the president says no, ultimately you're saying it's the people who decide. Thank you very much for your time, Chief Festus Oguche, a legal practitioner, joining us all the way from the oil city of Fort Hackett, Rivers State, Nigeria. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much for your time, Chief Festus Oguche, a Nigerian. Alright, Nigeria's federal government has recovered 2.6 trillion error in all revenues from all companies in the country. What's up with this and what does this put in for the Nigerian economy? We'll talk about this with Prof. Ken Ife, an economic consultant when we return from this break. Please stay with us.