 So this is a post-run session as we know and post-run session is always challenging. I think the organizers of this conference have faith in me that I'll make it interesting enough for all of you to remain awake. So I'll do my best there. Just to introduce myself, I'm Sunil Mundra. I work with workforce technologies as part of the consulting team there. And I work with organizations in their journey towards agile adoption and transformation. So this presentation is essentially my learnings not only from artworks who are known to be pioneering the agile adoption and transformation work that they have done in the past. But also my work with other organizations who are on that journey. So how many of you have seen the video presentation by Linda Rising called the agile mindset. So actually it is believed that she has invented this term called the agile mindset. And in her presentation she contrasts it with something called a fixed mindset. And she makes a point that this is the kind of mindset which you need in order to really provide all the benefits of agile. So let's look at what this is all about. This is the agenda broadly. We're going to look at what is the agile mindset. We'll look at how do we observe whether this mindset exists or not because mindset is something which is intangible. And as leaders, as coaches, as mentors, as managers, how do we know if this mindset exists within our organization? The next question is how do we keep enabling this mindset or how do we embark the journey for enabling the agile mindset. And finally, if you have some time, we'll do some development. All right, so let's look at what is the agile mindset. So today everybody has been following agile some because they are forced to change. This is a circumstances as such, competition is such that your customers are asking organizations to become agile, product companies want to get products faster to the market. So they are following agile. Some are anticipating change and therefore they are trying to implement agile. And some because, and there are some organizations which have come across where they are doing it just because everybody else is doing it and some very senior believes that this is going to work for the organization. People are saying we are doing all processes. So today I get to attack because we believe that just processes will deliver the benefits. People are saying that we are doing all practices, all processes. But the question to ask is, are we getting all the internet benefits? So why processes and practices will give you benefits? The two benefits of agility, the impact which needs to happen at the business level, at the organization level. Is that really being achieved? That's the big question to ask. And the answer that most organizations are given is an effective form. So why do you get some benefits with respect to visibility, transparency and early feedback and things like that? You are really not getting those benefits at a scale. You are just asking this question, why? What's really missing? If we are doing all processes and practices, if we are doing standard, if we are doing retrospective, if we are doing things like that, if we are doing user stories, there is the gap of the problem. And the question is really, how do we introspect on what's missing? That missing element is the agile mindset. So here's the definition of the agile mindset, which I have picked up from Wikipedia. It's the definition of the mindset. We already know what it is. So I'm not going to talk about that. But it says it's a set of assumptions, methods and rotations held by one or more people or groups of people. It's so established that it creates a powerful incentive within these people or groups to continue to adopt or accept prior to the previous choice. So if you look at Beckett's presentation today morning, this is a complex definition. I don't know why it's made so complex. But if I have understood this correctly and if I can explain it in my own words in simple way, I would say it's a set of values. It's a culture which definitely is within people and in their minds and in their hearts. So that's how I would describe mindset in simple terms. So let's look at some of the characteristics which indicate that have a mindset. And obviously the converse is true that if you see that this characteristic is correct, you may want to actually check the majority of the organization culture with respect to agile transformation. First, and to me this is a very important indicator of the agile mindset is to get failure as a learning opportunity. How do we traditionally respond to failure? Grab on the knuckles, right? Punishment, you've done something wrong. That's from perhaps the seniors to, you know, the people below the hierarchy. And within the same level of the hierarchy, it's about blame, blame and bigger pointing. What does it mean to be a failure? And what is one of the tenets of agility? Failure constant. Because if something is not going to work, if you're going to hide that failure and push it down the line, it's going to hurt you that much more and hurt you exponentially. So one of the key things which teams and organizations with agile mindset do is look at failure as a learning opportunity. If you respond a good workout, you're actually happy that, you know, you know that in the early stages that did work out and you have a chance to improve before it is too much. So looking at failure as a learning opportunity, looking at failure where there is no blame game, but an opportunity to be prospect and learn, I think that is a very important indicator of the agile mindset. The second thing is what people are intrinsically motivated and this issue won't address the pitch during the previous presentation when the question was asked about the quality of people. Yes, I think that is an important consideration that we need good quality people or I think organization has a responsibility to also ensure that, you know, people are this, right? So what is intrinsic motivation? So the opposite of intrinsic is extrinsic, right? And if you want to distinguish between intrinsic and extrinsic, it is that extrinsic is about external factors. So you do a job, you're working because you need a salary, right? You need to be seen as working, you need some status, whatever it may be. And I'm not saying that those factors are wrong and obviously those will be there and you will be motivated for extrinsic reasons and that's all good. But I think it is also important for people to be intrinsically motivated. Intrinsically motivated means I enjoy what I do. I do it because I have a passion for doing something. I do it because I want to make a difference. I do it because I want to make my customers happy. All of those things. And why is this important for agility? Well, agility is all about achieving excellence. And in my view, and this is my personal view, my formula for excellence is skip plus passion. So you may be good at something but if you are not passionate about it or if you are passionate about something but if you are not good at it, then I think excellence cannot be achieved or cannot be, even if it is achieved, it cannot be sustained. So I think it is important that people take pride in what they do, people enjoy what they do, people own up what they do and therefore you don't achieve excellence and I think that's an important characteristic of daily I might say. Third is teams welcome diversity of thought. Now why is really this important, right? What happens in a mindset which is not a giant? You might have a manager or an architect say, all right, this is my view and you're just going to go ahead and execute this. That's just a single person view. What a giant believes in is, it empowers the team, it believes that the team is the most important unit in the entire hierarchy, whatever it is you may have, what should happen. So when you have the power of the team, you need to give them the power to make decisions to be able to come up with new ideas and things like that. And the diversity of thought is important because you're believing that every person is an intelligent human being who has a particular perspective regardless of their security. So even if you have a pressure-joining team, if that pressure is good enough you enter the organization, right, and has come to this team after whatever training that he or she might have gone through, that pressure is good enough to contribute, right? You're all human beings and we have a brain and we are intelligent. The point here is when you have diversity of thought and when you discuss and debate the pros and cons without getting emotional about those, and based on that you choose a course of action, you are de-risking things. You are making sure that your decision is considered multiple alternatives and to the best of your knowledge and ability you are choosing the right one. So your risk, because of varying perspectives that come into the decision-making process you are reducing risk. Second is diversity of thought will also lead to continuous improvement and innovation. Because if somebody has a different way of doing things and is challenging the way things are, then that will definitely lead to newer ideas and continuous improvement. And that is why we need to encourage diversity of thought. I think the point is not just about having diversity of thought but how do you handle it? How do you, without getting emotional, as I said, debate pros and cons and then decide. So it's not about my point not getting accepted. It's about what is for the team and how does that work. Again, I think this point is the expense of work. No, not really. Work has to be done and deadlines are there, etc. But I think people need to enjoy being with each other and it's between team numbers and it definitely fosters collaboration. And therefore it is important that teams, and some of the best practices which I have seen are that teams are encouraged to spend time outside of us on the together. So you have a celebration, periodically you work for lunch, etc. So people are not only connected with each other, within a team, but they also share a little bit of a constant relationship between the team members and know about each other. And I think that is really the key to better communication and collaboration. And then this is what's what indicator I would say that the key is having that mindset. Sustainable pace. Why is it important to nudity? It's because a lot of discipline is required to deliver working software incrementally and accurately. And you will be able to do that only if you work at sustainable pace. I'm sure every project goes through challenges where at some point in time you would need to stretch. But if that stretch goes on for an unreasonable period then something will give it. And that something giving it is ultimately going to hurt the project, the product and the organization. So, that's really why sustainable pace is important. And there are many elements to working at sustainable pace. It's about being transparent to the customer. So, for example, you land up to the surprise, you underestimated something. It's very important that you go back to the customer and say, yes, we thought it was this. You know, we had to do those kind of assumptions. But now, when we are looking at this, it's really turned out that. That's the reality to me. And if you can take a customer to confidence and say, how do we deal with this reality? You could deal with it in a much richer way and the satisfaction of everyone. You could re-prioritize something. Re-prioritize something, right? There would be multiple ways in which you could handle it. Customer might sometimes even say, you know, yeah, it's okay to add a couple of people if they are especially towards the end of the project just to get it done on time. So, there's multiple ways to go about it. There's two ways to always take, you know, customers' confidence when you encounter a surprise, which can disturb this. Then, we discussed about we mentioned about being in the comfort zone. That comfort zone again is a problem as the vendor tried to quant it out. And agility is all about embracing changes in change. But if the teams might say it is to be in the comfort zone and if that's the case, then you may do all practices but you will not get the real benefits of doing it. So, embracing change is all about looking at newer ideas. Embracing change is all about working with the customer to see how best to do the change which is coming from the customer. And it's it's about collaborating between people and with the customer to make sure that we take the best course of action This again is an essential characteristic to ensure that things don't get hidden under the carpet and surface as bigger demons later on. And this requires courage this requires people to feel safe that if they bring out a problem, they will not get hammered for it. So, it's about transparency not only within the team members but also to members, their coaches really pick out issues just so that in case there is an issue, in case there is a problem we can tackle it before it becomes a big one. This is an important characteristic to really work well as a team and actually it has to be inherent with the people that they would want to communicate and so forth. For example, if I'm stuck to the problem I can struggle with it for hours and days but at the same time I could just go and say hey, I'm struggling with this can you just look at it and tell me would be a perspective on whether I'm getting in the right direction. So communication is the key and that's not only within the team but even with the customer as well and obviously it assumes that the customer is available at all times to do the communication or a proxy for the customer is. But it's important that in case you have a doubt you want to get back to somebody else check and verify that and move forward and make sure that you're doing the right thing. And again, collaboration because as Nourish pointed out it's not about definitive roles it's not about working in silos I mean you're supposed to be a generalizing specialist as you mentioned and do that in fact and make that work in a proper way I think collaboration between people is going to be key. So if I'm a business analyst and if a tester is struggling then I'll be born upon or I should go myself and offer to help the tester and that's what collaboration is all about that's what it is about getting things done on time with the best effort put by the team. Another key tenets of agility is continuous improvement and it's again all about that and this requires the team to be mature enough to always look at the status quo and observe not only what's going well but how can we improve work and that again is a sign of a mature team in terms of the mindset where they are themselves able to observe and challenge and question whether things are being done the right way and even if so can they be improved work? So looking at antique items by themselves yes initially when you embark on the journey perhaps the coach might do this but as the team becomes mature in their mindset they will be able to start doing this I have seen this in many organizations that people use knowledge as a source of power I will only share what is really necessary for somebody to know and not beyond that and I derive a power from that I think that's a clear anti-pattern here it's non-power deriving power or anything like that it's about making the customer happy it's about doing your work and the insurance is achieved and it's about the team it's not about the Egyptian and for that to happen people need to be sharing knowledge you can't force people there you can certainly have documents etc but once the willingness comes in to share knowledge it just becomes far more effective so those are some of the things which we looked at as key characteristics and I'm sure there are many more and if you have time some of you can share your experience what are some of the good things that you see with respect to the cultural change which I might have missed out but let's look at what can leaders coaches, managers etc do to enable this mindset to happen so it's a well established fact that cultural change as we said is a cultural thing cultural change to happen and to sustain is the leaders who need to take first steps of course people on the ground have to be willing and receptive to do that but I think putting the enablers in place for the cultural change is the responsibility of the leaders so I would say that leaders have to take the owners and the initiators to really enable this to happen this is what I was going to say that you yourself demonstrate cultural change so you not only put enablers there but walk the talk you're asking your people to do something but you have contrary no, go to work demonstration by example is the best way to make that happen secondly, when you do it you create yourself as a whole model where people can say that if that person helps you, it definitely helps and it then starts cooperating so you need to start illustrating cultural change what do you do that? transference especially about challenges so if we are facing challenges at an organization level for example where something is hurting us as an organization perhaps our existence is threatened perhaps due competition somebody will think that oh why does this developer need to get all that was to be to lose them at work if that message has to be in great terms of making that cultural change then this is very important is we need to share the reasons why we need to undergo this cultural change one of my learnings has been that change is very painful for people to be and even when we know that change is good for us it's hard it's hard and one of the things that helps to be able to make that change happen in a less painful way is to create that appetite for change so I'd like to give the analogy of fool if you're fool or you don't feel like you need something and you try to push something down your throat what would happen? you just throw it out that's exactly what happens when change when it is pushed from top to arm without creating the appetite to create that appetite for change and sharing that big picture sharing those challenges being transparent about things of the drop definitely creates an appetite for change we again talked about this earlier are people machines are people just resources are people faceless characters people are people and people expected to be treated as people and that has so many connotations to it so if somebody is having a personal problem how do you sort of empathize with that situation how do you say that please attend to that problem first we'll look at working how do you give that message and that person if you are so empathetic with it that person actually will go back resolve that issue whatever he or she will be facing and come back and perhaps work with them so it's very important that we treat people as people to again make them treated otherwise treat people as resources or as machines they will never get it I'm sure one of you have learned this talk server leadership so the role of a leader actually changes from being directive and command and control being a server leader I think this is one of the things which I found very difficult for leaders to do is to get into this more where you say that it's not me who's the most powerful in the hierarchy but it's the team which is the most powerful in the hierarchy and how do I ensure that I am there to help the team I am there to remove all the impediments I am there to do whatever that the team wants me to do help them achieve excellence go faster I think leaders need to start demonstrating this in order to move towards that in your culture the second bit is around redefining success criteria so what do we measure as success it's important in a traditional mindset task population largely is a measure of success for a person, for a group, for a block whatever in a child we are moving towards value so task completion is not as important of course it is important but the whole goal is that we move towards value creation and that is what needs to become a success criteria the ultimate success criteria and not task completion and how do you again get there towards that mindset of looking at value is you need to ask for the right information so I'll give my favorite example and I think again that what I've discussed earlier is in many many organizations we see that testers performance is measured by the number of function effects that they find I think we need to question whether that's the right information that as Narej mentioned zero sum gain so who's a who's a better tester somebody who collaborates with the developer to ensure that there are no or somebody who says whether the developer goes to him and says hey can you just have a look at it right it's still on my machine and just give me your initial feedback rather than doing that the tester is thinking in his mind why should I do that right let the developer check it for and so that I can find maximum where are we so I think it's really important to examine the goal of metrics that used to look at success criteria and that's why the set of metrics which I use are quite different from traditional methods this is one area where I found that leadership don't act swiftly enough so you have all these practices and processes in place but you still measure people by task completion by MVP, progress, by percentage completion etc sorry you'll not get this is another difficult one management always wants or leaders always want a single net to catch if something goes wrong right so again it's about change in culture where you're saying yep success or lack of it is at a key level so while individuals within that team will be accountable for what they do but it is not the it is not the person or the manager or the sales who are judging that but the overall success which is being seen from different level that should look at it from a team's perspective and not an individual's perspective so individual heroism is something which if it comes from somebody else from outside the team again that is a zero sum game because if you glorify somebody the others will feel less glorified and therefore it becomes a zero sum game so you need to be careful about the way you look at a team while getting that team level the third bit is about continuous improvement I think this is one of those tenets of agility which does not get as much land and importance as it deserves but I think it is really a key towards going towards that right mindset what do we do this key is establish a system of regular feedback because if you know that something is not working well you have to and I think early feedback is important and there is an art and this is within the team and of course early feedback from the customer is important but I am saying even within the team even within the organization if something is not working well then that feedback needs to be given in a way in which it is not about quality finding but it is about how can things improve and there is an art of giving as well as receiving constructive feedback and I think managers, leaders have to ensure that those practices about giving and receiving feedback so for example if one of the team members is not performing well how do you let that person know right we need to understand what the problem is is it the intent, is it the capability is it lack of training, what is it right but and sometimes people don't even know that they are doing something wrong or can do better unless somebody comes and tells them that we can't wait for your end performance appraisal to give people feedback it is just too late so we need to look at how we can put in systems for you know giving and receiving early feedback disruption in general has a very negative connotation disruption means so there is a problem everything has to go through unless you look at innovations innovations don't happen unless there is a disruption you try, you pay so how can you encourage disruptions which are positive how can you encourage trying something out see if that works right out in a way where you pride out on a smaller area and then you can propagate to a larger scale and disruption means again a change and that's why I think a lot of people resist it because a new way of doing things always means a change and as I said people are generally resistant to change but you need to encourage that to better practices and continuous improvement so we talked about failure earlier but I think it is important for the management to give that message that it is okay to fail first I think it is easiest that they are done so while teams can start looking at this as failure as a learning opportunity and the management as well and the leaders as well but I think actually say try this at a small scale or if you have done something with a good intent with an intent of improving something and so on it is okay to fail faster it is okay to learn from it I think it is very important for the leaders to demonstrate many people think that agility is all about the development process and the development team itself and can keep it limited to that you again want to achieve true transformation then it has implications for the entire organization and unless you make close changes at the organization level right you will have impediments along the way and you will be constrained as how much agility you can achieve so what can we do this is a very contentious statement but this is my personal view right now so let us understand what CMMI is all about what is the objective of CMMI CMMI believes that a product needs to be successful and a customer needs to be happy and they are all aiming towards that and I think agility wants to aim towards that so with respect to the goals of CMMI and agile I don't think the outcomes expected are any different from both approaches where I have a problem with CMMI is that it says regardless of the context you have to follow this process and agile says for the team here is a guideline you decide what is the best course of action for that situation to me these parts are not meeting right now at least I am sure there are thought leaders who are doing research on this and say what level of agility match to what level of CMMI but I don't think the final word on this has come up yet I know many organizations use CMMI level as a marketing tool which is a better tool a happy customer whom you can provide as a reference or CMMI service I think referenceable customers who speak very well about you who have much better job as a marketing engineer than some CMMI service I know in a situation where many government organizations etc ask for the certification but I am very hopeful that those things will change a lot of teams today are working in a distributed way right we have one shore off shore, we have multi locations within you know not only within the same city but if you are sitting on different floors right there is a barrier to communication and full operation and I think we need to invest people treat that as an expense right but it's actually an investment I mean I have worked with clients where the quality of you know the phones where the conference calls are that is so terrible how will you enable that why will people get encouraged to communicate and pull out the radio if that's the case I have seen situations where STD calls can only be made from the manager's room I have seen situations where you know we use a lot of stickies and we put up visual indicators and things like that there are organizations where if you want a packet of stickies you have to put a recommendation it will go to the purchase department that purchase department will try and find out where to find the cheapest that vendor will deliver it will go to the stores and finally it will come to the deal takes 8 to 15 days to get just a packet of stickies how is that helpful why do you need to look at you know policies which under collaboration remove those and look at things which will enable this it's going to be hard you have to trust me I think the problem that I have seen in many organizations if somebody makes an exception that is assumed that everybody is going to break that rule that way and a policing policy comes in for that even for a small exception the entire organization has to bear with that policy so I think we need to look at areas where we can unnecessary policing for example I talk of platforms where we do not monitors people in and out time why because everybody in the team knows where that person is it is assumed that you would be doing you would be coming into office on time you are responsible enough to be coming on time to office if you are not you will get feedback somebody will check with you is there a problem why you are not coming on time there are ways in which you can do this yes you can do that but I am sure there are ways you can do that by having smaller teams around but I think it is important to have policies where you show trusted people I think that goes a long way in people having the right mindset I am sorry to say but I have found that this group of individual management gets most threatened when we go on an agile adoption transformation chair the individual managers and I am not saying that they are in securities unjustified they really are because their role needs to change practice speaking there is no role of a quote-unquote manager in an agile team so yes you might still have a project manager there but clearly the role shifts from being a manager to being a facilitator and a servant leader and if you are recording the team the manager can be left to ask himself or myself what is my role am I going to lose my job so I think we need to address those insecurities how do we do that you need to bring those out in the open we just need to have conversations with that group which might be really insecure to say what are their concerns and unless you bring it out in the open you are not going to be able to address that so it is important that people discuss it out recognize that these insecurities are there and then people talk about people need education or what does it mean in a change role scenario so it is about reassuring them that it is not about you know directing people but how you can do more value added stuff as a facilitator and as a change agent so what are the benefits of the change role for a manager those need to be highlighted what are the options for them in terms of leadership roles and there are many many leadership roles available that exist it is not that it is just all about the team and there is nobody at the top there is the hierarchy is definitely flatter but there are definitely leadership positions which are created and which are there so I think again what works well is role models and if there are some people who are early adopters who have made that positive change it is important for the people who are struggling to figure out you know these people who are you know who have made that change and I think once they see role model at the peer level I think that definitely helps addressing those insecurities and making that mindset change happen one thing which I want to say about this particular group is if you look at the change curve or how people are slotted with respect to change it is a well shaped curve where you start with the innovators the people who have already made up their mind are very excited about that change there is an early majority who is standing towards that change there is a late majority who is little ok with the change but they are largely skeptical and then there is this group of laggards which you know are very skeptical or don't want to change at all for whatever reason right and most organizations focus on the first three leave out the others because they think that is a very small group of people my experience has been that those people also need to be addressed in the right way and as Becker mentioned earlier you need to try out change that mindset put in enablers for them to make the change happen but there will be some who will just not change regardless of whatever you do and my personal view is they need to be offered off the bus not on tape and you know you don't want a stinking apple around which will affect all the other apps so it's very important that you know insecurity is coming from people etc the address to the right way and see what is the root cause of that insecurity etc me if you have any questions if you have any crisis and they think that oh we have tried everything else now we have no option but to follow the entire thing if someone has a complication which is pushing down your throat and need to go back to the market or your survival depends on how quickly you can take a part to the market so I think creating that appetite is all about sharing that vision of the organization with the people now and giving them that big picture view and making them a part of it sort of really saying that whatever level they might be that's really I think the key creating that appetite changes being transparent sharing that big picture view and saying that we are all in this together how do we take this forward we are talking about team being together working together sorry it's not working so you are talking about the team working together the project with members across the board there are a lot of instances like the team is distributed across different part of the country or different part of the block so how do you think how to make such a team more effective for the team actually that's a different topic itself and actually if you go to slide share you will probably see a presentation we have distributed development best practices I have open on that it's a separate topic which results a different dimension also together so just to give a bit of context I think in the early days it was treated that distributed way of working and again we don't go hand in hand but we all know that distributed working is a reality it is faithful it is not ideal let's accept that because you cannot communicate ways to face team is not in a single location and there are definitely constraints but I am very happy and proud to say that the challenges of distributed development will be overcome to a large extent I am not saying fully but putting in some processes and practices around that so there are multiple ways of doing it you need to have good tools which will have a common source of truth and radiate information you need to have practices where there is good coordination between the teams for example if you object in port and some other team in a different time zone won't be working later on in port with a single version control system and you've broken the build and gone and they can't take in anything that's not a good thing so how do you work around that how do you cross pollinate people so again a lot of management are very happy and say about travel cost but in my view they pay off in the long run it's an investment it's not important how do you have people travel from one location to the other to understand the context that includes the customer as well to make sure that people connect with each other those trusted relationships are developed so that they can carry it back and you know be as intimately connected as possible despite being part of it so there's a multiple set of measures that you can do with respect to processes practices tools etc who try to overcome the challenges of distributed development to the best that you can but yes as I say distributed way of working is definitely not an ideal state of working but that's a bigger topic of discussion I'm happy to discuss offline with you whenever we get time Sunil yes this side here I have one question my question to you is many of the indicators that you discuss they are very insightful very very good so what I was thinking is is there any organization which was not excluding these characters which looked to transform the agile world and was able to achieve most of the different on and if else what is the kind of timeline they took to achieve the agile mindset that you described so very good question thank you for asking that so first is these indicators are not binary it's not that you have it or you don't have it you might have it to a certain degree what is important is to see where you are on those indicators as you are digging that journey and how are you progressing on those as you move forward there are various maturity levels and it's not that you need to have again all of them there are many others I would say it's a multi year journey and in my experience I think to achieve two transformation and I can think of a couple of case studies you know ThoughtWorks has done this kind of consulting and actually transform the whole organization to that it's a multi year effort I think I would say anywhere between three to five years is the kind of timeline that we are looking at to achieve reasonable level of maturity with respect to those indicators it's a multi year journey I think adoption yes you could achieve it within a few months period of time and adoption is when you are actually you are starting with an early adopter team you are introducing all the processes and practices no I think processes and practices are important it's not that they are not right but I think there are means to become agile I am not just doing agile my favorite phrase is don't just do agile it's about being agile so you start by doing it but the intent is to be there and when you start early you do an early adopter team you learn from that and then you have a propagation strategy throughout the organization you do that and then you have a strategy which you need to make it takes time it's a multi year effort thanks Suryan run out of time I do have a question can you keep it for the last few minutes you want me to ask it yeah you can okay Suryan my question is we are discussing about middle management insecurities and educating them the question is who will well the cat is it HR department then again we have to educate them because usually in organizations there is an elephant in the room so who will educate them well I think it's a combination you are very right I think as we say and that's what I meant by making these organizations there will be changes all of the supporting departments need to start thinking in that way if they are only concerned about doing that once a year all those policies which are very tradition oriented that is not going to work and I think HR plays an important role doing that in terms of being an independent party who will facilitate that but I think the role is also of an immediate superior who this person would share a sort of a trusted relationship and I think that person can perhaps start running the cat but the other senior leaders and HR can come in as enablers you need to look at your organization context but definitely HR has a role to play in this I think thank you very much folks for attending this session and for making interactive text for me thank you