 Hey Brent, how are you? I am hanging in there. Is still where you are, where you have been forever? Yeah, I mean, stuff keeps shifting around me, but I'm still around. Anybody else coming today, do you know? Oh, no idea. I honestly just want to scrub a non creds one. But I can't. No, we honestly should. I don't know anybody besides, you know, who that's actually using it. Technically, there are some former Everton customers who are still using it. But yeah, I. Like the revocation just doesn't work. And they keep finding more and more holes with it. So. Yeah. I mean, and just in the first place, it's not. Secure. I mean. Like if we wanted to use an RSA based solution that is more secure than we're going to need to up the. The size of everything. Which is a conversation you, me, Dmitri, and Jason lotter had in like. 2016 or 2017 or something like that. Yep. Like, well, okay, we really should up, up. A non creds. I wrote prototypes for that with 4k instead of 2k. Remember. Right. Yeah. But we were like, eh, you know, by the time. By the time we. You know, we shouldn't disrupt our current customer base and make them redo everything. Okay, should have. And by the time it really matters, you know, we'll all be on something else anyway. We're not yet. Well, that's why I kind of said, all right, let's move to a non creds 2.0. I've been kind of doing that. So trying to get that going. Yeah. I mean, honestly, that effort's going really slow too. Yeah, surprising. So, I mean, I'm having a hard time being motivated to work on anything with RSA related because there's so much legacy bloat. Yeah, I mean, we had a good push briefly to, but like, like. The PR was a 224. Well, it's like, it's good. It's a good PR. It updates things, changes a lot of stuff. But there's one line in it. That's currently pointing to like, like Dalek needs to be like Dalek needed to be updated. Basically, it's a reference to Dalek. And Dalek got updated. It's been like two months. And no update on the PR. So I'm like, I, I can't approve it yet because it's still pointing to a personal branch of Dalek. Instead of the updated one. And I don't have, I don't, I mean, is Dalek at 3.0 now or 2.0. I think they just went to 2.0. And we got released because last time I looked, it was still at pre. I thought it was officially out. Maybe not. I'm looking now. Because that was my note still says one. Oh, okay, maybe not. But anyway, I don't know. I mean, honestly, the two hours a week I spend on RSA is more than I can afford to spend. At this point. I don't know what to do about it. Because I, well, I'm freeing up some of my time, but I have a hard time justifying it. Because it's so bloated and no company I work for has cares about hyperledger at all. And that's the problem. Yeah. So I don't know what to do about it. So it's hard to justify it. I mean, if Ursa said, hey, all code will be audited. I don't know what to do about it because then I get the free audit, right? So, but hyperledger is not ponying up anything for it. So, and the, the only project I know that's kind of still going is fabric. Are you, I think there's a meeting later today. Is it today? Yeah, I was Sean. Yeah. I mean, that's. That'll be the time to get that question answered. Yeah, because I mean like heart never comes anymore. Well, no one ever since sovereign dissolved and ever in him, like kind of lived along versus had no, almost no activity really. Yeah. Yeah. And the Aroha folks showed up and we're like, Hey, we want to make this better. Like that sounds awesome. Let's do that. And we're just kind of stuck. I think they were surprised at how much. The amount of participation there was. Or how little. Yeah, it's pretty much died. I mean, I was doing most of the work before when I was at sovereign. And then since I left sovereign, it's had little to no action at all. Yeah, the pieces that people are using people are satisfied to keep using. I mean, I would have, I mean, I already have a non-crit's to working in a separate repo. But I don't know. I mean, it's just hesitant to donate it. So. I don't know. I mean, I probably get some good feedback. I just don't know. That's hard to say. So. I mean. If you could do anything right now, what would it be? Related to what? Related to this project. What would you do with it? I would just assign resources to update the BBS implementation so that it is more in line with the. Work that's happening at IRTF. It's just become bloated, man. That's why I gave up on it. I wouldn't use BBS plus period. I mean, there are constraints under which most companies operate that require them to care about things like standardization. Some. So I'm not swayed by the pure cryptographic concerns. Like, yeah, I get it. There are smaller and better signatures out there that are. It's not, it has nothing to do with smaller. Or say it's just the pure bloat that's come along with it. So. But I mean, quite frankly. Brent, every company I talk to, none of them want to use an ID. I think it's going to die as well. Because. Every, every company I talk to is adopting polygon ID. Because it's going into production. The system is easy for them to understand. It's based on open standards. So they're all going to use it. Not one. If anything polygon IDs. Implementation is going to win. And the non-creds will just fade into the background. And on credits one totally. No, the non-creds too. I think it's going to die as well. So they're all going to use it. Yeah, we'll see. All of the companies that I talked to are banking on Jason web proofs and BBS. And when you have somebody like. Paying identity and somebody like Microsoft. Saying that. I think that holds a little bit more weight than polygon ID. Like you might have some really slick stuff, but. Well, I'm the companies I'm talking to are all with three companies. A single one wants to use BBS plus. They kind of look at it and go, Hey, why would we use this when we can use polygon ID? Right. And that's fine for web three. But. I mean, I, one thing that was not clear to me while everyone was in his heyday was how. Utterly fringe most of the web three stuff is. That's the best fringe as you might think. Having spent the last four years in it. I mean, that's just it. You're in it. The view from outside is a little bit different. Yeah, I get that. But I think from what I, from my point of view, that gap is narrowing. So I'll be surprised at BBS plus. I'll probably find some market just because it's getting standardized, but polygon ID is like coin base is going to adopt it. And they've got quite a bit of weight finance, trust wallets, Verizon labs, lit protocol. I mean, all of them are looking at polygon ID. So polygon stuff that looks pretty slick, but. My biggest gripe with is based on grot 16. So that's a problem. So like one company wants to replace it with a different type of stark. But they can't justify the, the lift. Even though it's a better proving system. If, but, you know, other than a different proving system, there's no new. You know, offerings from it, right? So you go, okay, we just replaced it with instead of gross 16, we're using Starks. It runs 50 times faster. But that's it. No new functionality, nothing. So. And because it's, you know, Starks are so large, they can't justify the on chain. Requirements. So now they're just back to square one. So I don't know. From a web, okay. So let me put it this way from a web three perspective, maybe polygon IDs, the winner. So what do you classify BBS plus then. And the non-crits group. Is that also considered web three? No. No, when you're, when you have companies like Microsoft that are building solutions on top of the Jose stack and OIDC. That's. That's pretty much as far from web three as you can get. But they're using BBS plus. Yeah. With OIDC. The OID for VC spec is. Dammed clever. They took the, the traditional OIDC three party model. And made it so that one of the parties. Is the holders wallet. So I'm still authorizing a relying party. To obtain information from whatever they call it the. The provider, but the provider is under my control. It's just my wallet. So instead of, so they've taken the, this is OIDC. It's always phone home. They've split it in two. So on one hand, I'm the reliant or my wallet is the relying party and I'm getting. Access, you know, for my wallet to gain information from the issuer. And on the other side, I'm allowing the verifier. To obtain information from my wallet. It's, it's. Converted it into a fully SSI like. To party system. It's brilliant. And it has all the people who are already using OIDC going, okay, cool. Instead of going, what's did come. So like they're building on top of that. They have. They have what they're calling selective disclosure Jots. Which. Aren't awesome, but it's essentially the. You know, the hash base selective disclosure systems. Where you only reveal the. You know, it's salted hatches. So I can reveal things or not, but you only ever see the salted hash values unless I'm revealing the information, which doesn't prevent prevent, you know, doesn't help with unlink ability doesn't prevent correlation. But honestly, BBS LD signatures or whatever it's called now doesn't really help with that either. No, it doesn't. They got rid of holder binding. They got rid of. You know, I mean, the way that the end quads are canonicalized. You're revealing identifiers right and left. Yep. So, you know, from a, from a purely able to track information perspective, it doesn't. I'm BBS LD side of things seems marginally better maybe. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I've seen SD jot with a plain ED 255 19 signature on top of it. But tell you what, one of those is a hell of a lot easier to implement and convince big people to implement. Then the other one. And in the same vein, Jason, web proofs. Is. You know, gaining a lot of momentum. One thing that I've been impressed with like. I've done W3C for a long time now. There's a lot less politics and a lot more expertise. Yeah. Like people go. You know, I am a photographer and this is what I see going on here. Or I have built systems using these things for decades now and here's, you know, here's my concerns. Here's my question. It's like just the, the whole. You know, seeking to understand questioning aspect of it. It needs to, it seems to lead to better things. Yeah. So, so with Jason web proofs, you have a Jose. Affiliated data structure. I'm looking at the Jose web proof. Whoever wrote that has got PS signatures in it too. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's legit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Curious signatures in there. Yes. It's compatible with all of those things. And it doesn't have opinions about it because it's just the data structure. So. With JWP and OID for VCs. I have. Like. The, I have. Pieces of the puzzle that the federated identity people. Find acceptable and they still run the identity game. Well, and the fact that I can still see. The fact that they have PS signatures in there. I'm game. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's like, and the only reason BBS is going to have a foothold is because it's going to be the first signature that standardized enough for companies to use with JWP. It's not going to be the last one. Yeah. But it's going to be, it's just like, okay, I've got a job. How is my job signed? Well, the job will tell me how it's signed. So it doesn't really matter. Yeah. There's issues with that. Obviously bad, but. The fact that. 10 years ago, Jots were signed with something different than they're signed with now. And they kind of like the job still exists, even though. Oh, it used to be signed with an RSA signature. Now it's signed with. You know. I need some kind of SHD or, like, a DDSA, like, like a DCDSA. Or ED 25519. Or EDDSA, or just like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. I can swap out which ones I need to use or can use. Having us another data structure, that you can do the same thing with. I think it's going to be. It's going to be awesome from be like, Oh, And I also, it's hard to underestimate the impact that larger players have on the space. Yeah. You know, I would love honestly I would love for the web three vision to take hold and for. You know, the worldwide impacts that are potentially there to be realized but I don't maybe I'm just too cynical. You know, I've seen it I've seen it used for fraud and for grift. Far more often than I've seen it to change the world or attempt to change the world even some of the more dreamy Dow stuff that I've seen has been like borderline fraud. I don't blame you. This is why I like bigger companies, you know, like coinbase for example, or having to up there. Do I see right now. So yeah, it'll be interesting. You know, I still, I'm still mildly concerned that we're, you know, fashion the tools that will be used to create the perfect dystopia. I just fail to see how it can contribute to any of this stuff now. Yeah, it's, it didn't, it hasn't grabbed hold of people's like people just don't see it as a place to go to get something. I honestly wonder if I should donate a lot of the go code of cryptography I wrote and then because they feel like more people are prone to adopt that then rust personally. Yeah, I mean rust is great. I love rust, but Oh, don't get me wrong. I love rust but no one else does. It seems like the only companies writing rust or those writing cryptography and web stuff like Cloudflare has tried to get me and they're doing tons of stuff and rust. It's not even cryptography related. Cloudflare is doing a lot of cool stuff period. Yeah. Did you see their real world crypto thing. Now, I've been to robot crypto since I left sovereign, unfortunately. It was, I've seen two projects they're doing but I haven't seen anything new cryptography wise that they're doing other than privacy pass. Yeah, the privacy past stuff is pretty cool. I'm trying to find the What year was it. It was the one that just happened. Try to remember which one it was. Was it the zk. Oh, I think it was the I'm pretty sure it was the post quantum privacy past stuff. ZK dilithium with an all this of course being actual on credits not Indian on credit. Yeah, really just pretty cool stuff. I mean they've taken basically they taken the, you know, the potential lattice based that has been interesting, but only theoretical or semi practical so far. And they've, they've made it so it's legitimately like, okay, this is potentially actually usable like, I don't know it's It was interesting. It was like it was the, the leap forward kind of presentation that I wasn't expecting for another couple of years. Like, you know, here's how we did post. You say a non creds what do you mean, like with stuff like this right on credits. Well those are only good what time is privacy past tokens only good ones. Yeah. So I was just curious what that meant. Really what the presentation was on was a post quantum blind signature. Okay, that's like an actual practical in size and scope post quantum blind signature that's what was kind of exciting about it. Anyway, yeah, real work there was fun this year. Oh, I see Greg Nevin presented how a blockchain can keep many secrets. Yeah, it looked interesting. Yeah, I saw the time lock one. Yeah, there was. During the Nevin talk. It came unfortunately came across more like, or like an advertisement, then like a solid thing. It was a, it was an advertisement for the internet computer more than it was a, hey, this is cool tech kind of presentation. That was annoying. Well, I'm just curious what where we go with person now because honestly I don't, I think there's existing people that like it, but I think all new stuff no one wants it. Well, I think that there's a lot of potential there. I think. You know, there's, there is a solid plan to reconfigure it so that it's not as bloaty so that I can just get the pieces out that I need. Well there's a plan but who's doing it. Exactly. Like there was some. We've had like the PR like the aroha guys who are like going to start doing it but they're also busy doing a roja. I don't know if anyone that's using a roja. I mean, I, I'm going to. I don't know how much longer I'm going to be able to justify the time that I'm spending on it. Yeah, me neither. Probably have to bring that up this afternoon. Yeah, me too. Well, there's nothing else to talk about we should probably just get 30 minutes back. Good to talk to you though I guess I'll see you this afternoon. All right, see you Mike. Okay, see you. Bye.