 Welcome to the non-profit show. We are so glad you're here. And today I am thrilled to have with us, I like to say the hot seat, but Derek Mulharn has joined us where he serves as leadership coach with his own Derek Mulharn coaching. I've been watching him on Zoom, or sorry, on LinkedIn, but here we are having him on Zoom to talk to us about how do you lead and talking about being leadership or doing leadership. And he's gonna talk to us about both of that. I wanna say thank you to Julia Patrick who created this platform for us to be here. She's the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your non-profit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. Really honored to be a co-host day in and day out with Julia and lucky to be able to pass the torch. She's able to take some days off from time to time as am I. But we would be remiss if we didn't continue to extend our immense gratitude to these sponsors. So thank you to Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, fundraising academy at National University, non-profit thought leader, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd, as well as non-profit tech talk. These are the companies that allow us conversations that we are about to have. We're going to go into the deep end, like get nitty gritty, get into the weeds of this conversation. But if you missed any of our previous episodes and if you're unaware, we have produced nearly 1,000 episodes and you can find them. You can download the app by scanning the QR code and you can still find us on broadcast and podcast platforms. So Derek, you have helped me to get other guests on the show in particular during a conference. And so I've just been thrilled to watch your journey. But for those of you watching and listening, Derek Mulhern is here where he's leadership coach of Derek Mulhern Coaching. Welcome to you. Thanks, Derek. Super excited to be here. I feel like it was what, three, four, something years ago like that when we connected the first time at AFPICon and I think you were hanging out in the Bloomerang booth. So full circle, here we are. Full circle. Well, tell us a little bit. I know you have a lot to cover in this very brief 30 minute episode. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing with your coaching. Yeah. So let me just take a step back and kind of talk about what it was that my aim was to create when I started my consulting coaching, whatever we want to call it, practice. I just saw a huge need within the nonprofit space for us to really develop leaders that had the capacity to show up in a way that inspired other people on a deeper level, on like a more humane level because we're doing all this humane work, right? We're all trying to create bigger change and where I just kept feeling like there were so many breakdowns was just right within the organization. Whether that be one leader that wasn't able to really kind of lead the organization or a lot of breakdowns and all these excuses of like, well, the resources aren't there or the time isn't there because we've got all these things going on and the challenges are all the same and they're all very different. So what I've really created is a lot of opportunity to just create more transparent conversations and communication through coaching and facilitation. So what that looks like is helping to support leaders from first time managers to CEOs and executives in having more transparent conversations breaking down the communication barriers and really identifying what the challenges are that are actually happening. And oftentimes the thing that's in our way for that is us trying to really understand who we are as a leader in ourself. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you wanna check out more, go to DerekMulhern.com and we're gonna start off with this one tip here or conversation, how there's life experiences and how that helps to shape leadership. What are you seeing in this space? Yeah, I'm seeing a lot and especially because if we look back pre-pandemic and see how leaders were supposed to show up, it's just changed so much. The expectation of any type of a leader, again from a manager of a team to a CEO or executive is just different than it used to be. There's almost this, I don't wanna say caretaker, but empathetic and coach mentality that all leaders are supposed to take on. And so as we have this conversation about your life experiences shaping it, what I have really come to learn not only in myself but in others is that we have all these preconceived notions not only of how things are supposed to be done but how we are most comfortable with things being done. And I know that's really obvious, but for me, the experience that I'll share, and I think you've seen it tons and we're talking about authenticity here, is I grew up as a gay kid in Southern Minnesota, a really rural area. One of the things that was important to me was to be heard, was to be seen. And so my leadership is shaped around that. And I recognize when I'm not heard and seen how much smaller I get and how much more combative I get as a leader. And so that's just one example of like my own leadership that is affected by my own life experience. Yeah, I'm so glad you shared that. I've loved the photos you've shared of your childhood. There's cows involved in your story. It's just, it's been a lot of fun. And that's my style too, is really to bring in like personal stories with a little bit of levity and to talk about that collectively. Talk to us about, because I think this is a pretty brazen statement, right? And I'm all for it, Derek. It is really how the nonprofit leaders, we show up differently. What do you mean by that? Like what have you seen and how so? I'm gonna say a statement that some people will adamantly disagree with and some people will come into my house and cheer with me as I say it. Our workplace is a family. I'm sorry, but like our workplace doesn't have to be our family. And I'm not saying that each and every one of us may not have our own challenges around what family looks like for us. And what I really see within this is that a lot of leaders really try and foster a culture around family rather than transparency and communication and honest conversations. I grew up on a dairy farm. It's a family business. Let me tell you, it's chaos. It's complete chaos. And so as we look at like this family culture, leaders are really trying to caretake for their employees rather than empowering their employees to be able to see for themselves what their leadership looks like, allowing them to fail, allowing them to make the wrong choice, allowing them to make the choice that you don't want them to make, but that's the right choice for them. And I say this with nonprofit leaders specifically because there is this big conversation around taking care of people because we care about our missions. We care about the impact that we make. And what really happens is we just end up in this space of like going from like telling someone what to do to just really caretaking and not really fostering any growth in them, but teaching them that the ways that they do things can be okay when there may be ways to really improve, grow and have more transparent conversations. I gotta say, I'm in the house cheering with you, right? Because I also like don't really want to be working with a family type of environment. I jokingly say like, I love my family from 2000 miles away, you know? I really do, very close with my family. But you know, looking at that caretaking in and of itself, I find it exhausting, right? And I think that adds to the layers and the challenges, the complexities that we as social workers or social profit, you know, professionals are already managing. Like we are literally trying to eradicate homelessness, you know, eradicate hunger. That's a heavy lift already. And then you add in caretaking staff. I just, I've been there and it is exhausting for me and that's who I should speak for. Yeah, and I don't want to say, Jared, that like this isn't a problem that is faced in other sectors, like it is. I think that there is this expectation from employees at times, two leaders that creates the vicious cycle. And there's an opportunity for leaders to really get clear with their employees about what the culture is that they're creating. And that doesn't have to be we do this or we don't do this, it's a conversation. And it's like honest and it's transparent. And I think that's where we have a lot of opportunity to change cultures within nonprofits. Perfect segue, because we're gonna talk about brave bold leadership and how to create that healthy culture. So dive deeper, right? Like I alluded earlier, we're gonna jump into the deep end. I will witness to everyone. I'm not a shallow swimmer. Like I like deep conversations. I like to go there. I like to be raw. I like to have those sometimes uncomfortable moments. What does this mean? And like how do we create healthy cultures? And I also have to say, and I'm just putting it all in there with the kitchen sink. You admitted earlier, Derek, that before COVID there was a way in how we showed up. Post COVID, it's really changed. I still see generationally, right? Leaders holding on to the old way. And I just don't think it's happening. It's that square peg into a round hole. So that was a lot to throw at you, but how do we create this healthy culture with all of that in mind? Yeah. You know, I call it being brave and being bold because it requires us doing things differently than we've done it before. And it means that we have to like take some risks to show up differently. I think this actually goes more into the point of like what we're calling this session, like being leadership versus doing leadership. I think what we have done and what we have rewarded for so long are what we do and what the practices are as checkboxes for what a leader should do. Oh, you give good vacation time. You let people leave early. You are flexible, like as checkmarks. And what I think that creates is leaders that come in and we've all been there. That leader that like comes to the all staff meeting and they're gonna say the right thing and they say it and all the back channels start because they're like, wow, that was completely inauthentic. That was completely non-abathetic. And so where I see this offer is for leaders to step outside of that comfort zone of what they've always known to try doing new things. And that means they're gonna make mistakes and they can take ownership for it. What does that also mean? They exhibit that everyone on their teams will make mistakes and we will learn from it. And we really get to start breaking down these barriers around the weird things that we reward in our culture, the really weird things that we reward in nonprofits. Wow, I worked a 65 hour week. You get rewarded for it. Oh, I pumped out more work than one person does. You get rewarded for it. And all that does is it creates these cycles. So if we can really work with leaders to help them make decisions that feel like they go against how society operates, that's where we really see culture starting to shift and change. And then you've just got the whole nonprofit mix in there of like, well, that takes money and resources and time. And so that's where I think it gets, the kitchen sink you're talking about, that's what we're in. It's all in there. Can we unpack the mistakes a little bit more because I really feel, and my experience is we are so terrified in the nonprofit sector to make mistakes because it's costly, right? Because we can't like, we've just been conditioned to say we can't try something new because what if it fails and then it cost us money or cost us time? Can we talk about mistakes and like, how you can promote that mistakes are okay? And in fact, it might be the secret sauce that we've been missing. Yeah, totally. Because I can guarantee those of you listening right now have been in that position where like, the new ideas keep getting percolated and they keep getting presented and then they get shut down and all at once you look back three years later and nothing has changed and nothing looks different. And let's be real, things don't need to change. That's not like, things don't need to change in every organization. And we have to continually learn to be curious and learn to see how things are adapting and work with that. And so if we are in this space of like risk aversion and not making like decisions to take risks we're just staying in the same place. I've said so many times I'd rather see somebody make mistakes and like not hit the mark and learn from it for the organization, for our mission to really help foster what we can create from that. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I would also be in the house cheering with you for that too. You know, I remember and it's been a decade plus ago and it was a tech industry company. There was a very expensive mistake made and instead of the employee being reprimanded or fired the story goes, right? That their supervisors were like, congratulations and what did you learn from that, right? Like really embracing the journey, the learning like how do we take that experience to build a pun for the next thing? So, right there with you like let's create these healthy cultures let's even promote mistakes, you know all of this to build a pun having open dialogues which moves us too. And I have to say, Derek, like, you know DEI work I feel in the last four years and with the murder of George Floyd, pardon me you know, everything going on there's been a lot of, there's been a lot of talk but maybe not enough action. And so I'm curious how you're coaching and leading in this space, brave bold leadership and how it intersects with the DEI work. Totally, you know, there is no silver bullet to any challenge we face in this one's no different. One of the things that I really struggled with early in my development as a leader was like how do I do, like how do I say the right thing around this? Like how do I ensure I don't step on people's feet? And what I've actually learned through not only leadership but my like coaches training is just this level of like compassion that can exist around being curious and not in a way that puts ownership on everyone else but in a way that is like truly trying to learn. The example I would use and some may not see it as the most fair example but as a kid, we show up and we don't know the answers to things. So what do we do? We try it. We missed up, our parent tells us we did it wrong and then we learn from that and we create what really works. And I think that that is at times what's missing in this space not that we don't need to be aware of our impact because we absolutely do but that like there can be mistakes and we can learn from them as long as we are willing to take responsibility for what we've done and the impact that we've had because our leadership and how we show up has impact and we need to be aware of that. And if these are ultimatums it just really gets hard for us to work within. Yeah, you know, in the ultimatums they just keep coming and keep coming and it's that definition of insanity, right? We keep doing the same thing over and over expecting that different result and it just doesn't happen. Derek, if you're up for it we have a live question that I would love to ask you. Okay, so I hope that I can honor the writing of this. So it says, the person writes on it says I think leaders believing they are not responsible for staff as a whole is the issue in nonprofit spaces. How do you think healthy cultures can be cultivated where leaders consider their staff when leading in the areas of not providing support? So really, you know, IE it says here IE requiring old forms of communication. Can you speak to that? Yeah, so what I hear in this example is us first them, like it is us as the employees versus the leader or the leadership team or whoever that might be. And as long as we are all as long as we are playing that game it's gonna end the same way every time. And so what we're not trying to do is to say who's responsible? Because that means that there's a line, imagine a rope and on that rope there's a different level of responsibility based on who you are. So if we instead take that rope and we throw it out the window and we say, hey, you as employee and us as leaders are 100% responsible for the outcomes of our organization and for what needs to be said and what is not there. That's where the magic lies in my mind. That doesn't mean that you're not gonna have an employee that does a great job of speaking up for what they see and leaders not hearing it and not responding and needing a new situation. And if you can create that culture from everyone and in both ends this isn't like this person solves the problem or that person, it's us as a team that solves the problem and figures it out. I love the visual, I'm very visual but I love the us versus them. And I'm curious, this is my own question here. Are you seeing the hierarchy of organizationals become dismantled? Like really looking at, okay, instead of having top down I've been aware, Derek, there's several organizations that have really taken on like a circular kind of a leadership which really encapsulates everyone almost at the same level, if you will there's still different pay, there's different titles but it really creates a cohesive team or I've seen it do that. Are you seeing where a lot of the org charts are being reworked because of that hierarchy? Not as much as I would like. And to be clear, I don't think that I think what we see in that example is that like for these changes in culture shifts to happen like we need to like dismantle what the current kind of org chart looks like and I know that's not exactly what you were suggesting but like again, it can happen in many different ways. I think that a lot of the organizations and by nature I'm working with organizations that are like willing and wanting to make these changes and the leaders that want to like I'm seeing it happen and it looks 10 different ways. It can be the same org chart with like just people being more communicative and really owning their responsibility with it and not being at like effect of the world and it can also look like project-based work. We have this group of people that works on projects and we move them around as needed and they don't necessarily like always report to the same people but they have like their consistent manager and coach that they have within their team. So there's different ways that they look and I think that goes back to this risk thing, right? Can we try something different? Are we willing to try something different? It doesn't have to work but if it does, what could be possible for our team? Yeah, imagine that, imagine. I have some more questions. So I'm really curious if you're seeing in your work are people coming to you with their coaching stipend if you will being paid for from the nonprofit are many of them paying for it out of their own pocket? I'm really curious what you're seeing. I'm not gonna test you and say what you think but I would say more often than not it's individuals that are paying for it on their own. And yeah, they want that development and what I'll tell you in that relationship and to be very clear I work with people in a lot of different ways and like no matter how they show up I'm gonna show up the same way no matter who's paying but what that really does is it creates a little bit of like a lot more investment on their end if they're paying for it they're really committed to the like changes that they're making but what I see is like if the organization doesn't get bought into that somehow they start elevating out of the organization in some way because the organization isn't on the same page and it's not in partnership. When the organization is investing and unattached to like how the relationship needs to go and what the person needs to get out of it it's a lot more of a cultural shift and an opportunity for like integration. The individual is gonna get probably the same amount out of it no matter what but it can actually be a big investment of the organization by simply investing in one person and allowing that person to then show up as leader in the organization to bring what they're learning and gaining and like affect the culture affect their teams like it's a lot more than the one person they're investing in. Okay so I'm gonna share a little bit about my experience is I have provided coaching in the past and I love it I love working one-on-one with individuals you know your statement where you just said I do find often many individuals come to me and pay for it their own I have seen where companies or nonprofits pay for it as well so as you mentioned this and I'm just thinking off the cuff I'm remembering anyone I've coached and they have paid for it they have moved on to another organization not that I coached them to do so that has just been their journey the individuals that come to me the organization has paid for it right they've stayed at their organization longer and there's been a lot more buy-in in particular from the board who has said we want to invest in you and your leadership coaching and what that looks like so I just wanted to share that off the cuff because your remark I'd never thought of it that way and I think that is what I see as well. Yeah and I think the other thing here Jira is like and I think we're there like I actually think we have crossed the Rubicon now but like coaching used to be a you've got a performance issue you need coaching and the shift that's happening and nonprofits might be a little bit later on it but like is let's invest in you because we see so much in you and we want you to like elevate and how do we use this as a retention tool how do we use this as a growth tool for your team how do we use this as a tool for our organization to create more impact the people that are investing in it from the organizations they get it I will now and then still they'll get the person of like hey this person is an issue and like we have a really clear conversations about like A, I'm not here to fix anything I'm only here to create a space for someone to explore and B, my conversation with that person is 100% confidential and we're not working to solve the problem that you want them to and some people get bought into it some people don't. Yeah that is interesting I'm curious I feel a sneeze coming on hold on one second oh they just went away that's live TV that's what happens I'm curious what you're seeing or forecasting rather Derek into next year 2024 right like Julie and I used to say like bring all that crystal ball you know like clear it off what are you predicting leadership changes will take place in this next year I think that the first thing that's going to happen is that organizations are going to get real or not get real like we're at the inflection point of like what does DEI look like in leadership they've either given up on it or they've moved to the next level on it I think that's the first thing that we're getting to and like that's sad right like there's a huge opportunity for this to continue to be a big thing that our sector really embraces I also think that we're at this space where organizations we've gone through this weird staffing thing in the last four years like it is like I can't keep track of like are we in a staffing shortage or is there too many staff like it feels like it's all over the place from time to time and nonprofits are really impacted differently I think they're still going to be challenged to find staff I think that's going to be a real thing and I think that leadership is the key like ingredient in that people want to be taken care of as we continue to get out of the pandemic we're seeing more people that are staying in that kind of like I know what I want out of my life and I know how my career fits into it and like not in a like ultimatum type of a way that I think people have more flexibility than we give them credit for but in a way that like they are going to make some demands and requests and like that's your opportunity to keep people and so I really see like leadership becoming a retention thing as we continue to move along and it's just this constant like space that we're in where people are going to have to continue to have more authentic conversations and I see that just as a continual building thing I don't know that that's like a nonprofit thing I think that's just generally General yeah well I was laughing not at you but you're right are we in a shortage are we in an over you know like overage like where are we in our nonprofit space we do thankfully have staffing boutique with us and they join us and talk to us you know about this they happen to be in New York and as we were saying in our you know previous conversation there's a lot that happens in different places of the U.S. and how that impacts our sector and you're right it has been such a roller coaster you know and we look at the tenure of nonprofit I myself you know I have some lifelong nonprofit friends that I never thought would leave the sector and they've left the sector right I mean and that's great you know they're doing something that they're passionate about I just find it fascinating to see you know how we are transitioning in that space so Derek I'm not surprised but I absolutely love this conversation with you as I call it nerding out right the nonprofit nerd nerds out but I've really really and genuinely loved what you're doing what you're sharing I love you know being on the sidelines and watching that so if anyone else has enjoyed today's conversation please check out the website DerekMulhern.com I read that because I know we have a lot of listeners it's D-E-R-E-K-M-U-L-H-E-R-N.com check them out he's up to some really big things Derek Mulhern coaching I know you live in the D.C. area but you work across the nation or international what are your boundaries? Yeah mostly North America open to work outside of that but really focusing in North America right now and I just have so much fun doing it. Yeah well it looks like you're having fun so thank you and thank you for showing up as your true self it really has been fantastic Julia missed a great episode but I am so glad to be here with you Derek I'm Jarrett Ransom nonprofit nerd and again I want to express so much gratitude to our sponsors that allow us I like to remind everyone unscripted conversations right like we do not have a script here so thank you to Bloomerang American nonprofit academy fundraising academy at National University nonprofit thought leader your part-time controller staffing boutique nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk these are the companies collectively have allowed us to produce nearly a thousand episodes so as this year is wrapping up we have next year to look forward to so thank you Derek for joining me and as we sign off every episode as we have from the very very beginning we want to ask and invite and remind everyone to please stay well so you can do well thank you Derek it's been a joy.