 Hey everybody, today we are debating whether or not male privilege is real and we are starting right now. He's in general and thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. This is going to be a fun one, folks. And if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, wanna let you know we are a nonpartisan channel striving to host fair debates, basically so people can make their case. They can kinda take their shot on an equal playing field and so we're excited to have you here no matter what walk of life you come from folks, conservative, liberal, Trump supporter, you name it, everybody's welcome here. And so with that, we are excited, we are going to get this thing rolling in just a minute. I'm gonna do a couple of quick housekeeping type things. One is if you have not known yet, we have invaded the podcast world at Modern Day Debate. So we'll still have the YouTube channel but we're also going to podcast now and we just got approved by like iHeartRadio and Google Podcasts, we're waiting on Pandora but all of the ones you'll see on the far right side of your screen, there it is, you can actually find us on there right now and if you can't find us on your favorite podcast app, let us know we'll work on getting on there for you. Also, very excited as this Monday we will have a juicy one, folks. This is gonna be a fiery one maybe. It's going to be whether or not Islam fits in Western society. So that should be a wild one. We're excited for it. Hopefully you can make that. And with that, gonna explain today's format and let you know that I put the links of both of our guests in the descriptions of your listening, you're like, hmm, I want more. You can hear more by clicking on those links which I will be putting in during the opening statement from GKR actually, because I was a little bit behind today so I'm gonna get those in there during his opening so they will be in there in just a moment. And with that, the format will basically go like this, folks. First, GKR will have about five to 10 minutes to make that opening statement followed by David who will make his opening statement in about the same amount of time and then we'll go into open conversation. That'll be about 50 to 60 minutes. If you happen to have a question for the Q and A, great, shoot it into the old live chat. If you tag me with that modern day debate, it makes it easier for me to try to get every question in that list. Super Chat is also an option and basically if you do a Super Chat, it also gives you the opportunity to, if you want, make a comment toward one of the speakers that they of course would get a chance to respond to. And then Super Chat will also push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q and A and with that, we're very excited. We're gonna get the ball rolling here but first I just wanna say thanks GKR and David. It's a true pleasure to have you guys. We really appreciate you just coming on to hang out with us. Awesome, I'm happy to be here. So with that, we will hand it over to GKR. The floor is all yours. Alrighty, all right. Hi everybody, I'm GKR. All right, I'm gonna do, this is like two parts this opening. I'm gonna try and keep it under five minutes. So I wanna separate this discussion of male privilege in two parts. One, I think we need to talk about what this debate is about is does male privilege exist? And the second part would be why does it exist? Now if you wanna discuss things like do men have certain advantages? Do women have certain advantages that make them more productive or less productive in a given society? That falls into the second category. This discussion is just on does male privilege exist? And that's what I'm aiming to discuss. The second part, I wanna just discuss the term privilege. So privilege basically just means an advantage. So basically all things equal, if you're born a male into, I guess I'd say this from the United States context that's probably true more or less across the world in most places. You're more likely to be better off if you're born a male than a female. That's pretty much it. That's it. It's a privilege just in so far as it conveys an advantage that you didn't really work for. Doesn't mean you're a bad person. If you were born a guy, it doesn't mean anything like that. It just means that you have an advantage by virtue of your birth that you didn't necessarily do anything for it. Doesn't mean everything you did after that isn't validated. That's pretty much it. So the next part, I'm just gonna discuss that. In American society, we tend to value individualism and the way that manifests itself is through valuing the ideas of like social independence and economic independence. And I think the way we value society results and that being conveyed more so if you're a man. So I would put that in like two macro ways in order to demonstrate it. I'll scroll down a little bit here. So first thing I'm gonna talk about is in terms of like having social power or having like more choices in life. Sorry about that. If you're a man, let's say, so let's go over members of Congress as an example. 24% members of Congress are female, 29% members of state executives, i.e. like state houses, governors, all that, oh sorry, actually it's two for both state legislators and state executives like governors, 29% female, 22% of mayors are female, 5% of CEOs are women, sorry, Fortune 500 CEOs are women and about 39% of businesses are owned by women. Those tend to be more powerful positions, right? So maybe you'd say, oh, men float to the top in those respects. Once again, that would just be acknowledging a certain privilege that leads to them accomplishing things disproportionately in the context of what we value as a society. It's just easier to do that if you're a man. And the second part I'd say you would be talking about some sort of like wage disparity between men and women. Now there's two ways to look at it. There's the unadjusted and the adjusted, commonly cited about women in gross total, make about 80 cents on the dollar. This is in the United States, it varies from country to country. And then when you adjust that for like careers and hours worked, it's still 95%, or sorry, 95 cents on the dollar. So there's still a small disadvantage there. And where I would, I guess, and this is saying we've come a long way, right? So when I said Congress is 25% women or so, that's over the last past 30 years we've gone from 5% women to 25%. We've made progress, it's getting better. Just saying that it still does exist. And it's something that we can keep working on. But that's about it. I'll throw it over to my friend, David over here. You bet, thanks so much. Laura is yours, David. Thank you very much. And I think that there's a lot of middle ground for us to speak on. That's wonderful. So from my side, this is not topic of male privilege that's been around since the 60s and 70s, and was perhaps first brought to the forefront in the mid to late 80s with Peggy Mettentash. She was one of first brought out of 46 privileges that were forwarded to either whites or white males. Peggy also asked, how is it in just a few decades Jews in America went from being excluded from the full privileges of whiteness to being included? And as you mentioned, there are, you said 5% of women of the 40% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 countries. Okay, so it's good. I had something I suppose a bit similar. My question would then be, how is it that those 5% of women rose to those positions? How is it that women like Deborah Mead and Sarah Davies, Jenny Campbell, and many others rose to the top to appear on shows like the Dragon's Den or Shark Tank? Now, my answer to that would be, is that they didn't complain about all the barriers in their way to getting there, that they did not complain, they put their head down and they did the work to get there. So as to my position on male privilege, is it real? I would say no, it is not. As we have, as you've said earlier, being a male does for the certain advantages, not just being physiological, however, I would also say that, I would also say that, depending on the context, there are also disadvantages to being a male, or there are advantages to being a female, disadvantages to being a female. I think it would also be a bit remiss if I did not say in some ways in which men face some sort of a burden. Men are expected to serve on the frontline, or go back to the First World War, there was a lot of the white feather given to men who were not serving in the army. Men are expected to climb up the court of amber, corporate matter and be ambitious. There are also the dead by default roles which force men to pay for children that are not biologically theirs. There comes the issue of physical abuse, where it's generally seen that if a man is being physically abused by a woman, it is often laughed at if this happens in public, where a woman is berating a man for whatever reason, there's occasional laughter his way. So for me it's largely that it's people coming from the other side, from perhaps the female side, thinking that perhaps the grass is much greener on the male side than what it perhaps actually is. And the end of, I usually have concerns of the language around the topic being used. Normally when I'm hearing these arguments put forth, it tends to go around, this is a good idea. However, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach when people preach about socialism, communism or favorite feminism. And that is why I have an issue with male privilege being a real thing in the States. And that would be my opening. You bet, thanks so much. And we'll kick it into open conversation mode. So thanks so much gentlemen, the floor is all yours. You wanna go first, you want me to? Go for it. So towards the end of my closing, I sort of alluded to it. You mentioned how like men are subject to being like abused in public, or like subject to that abuse in public that wouldn't get like the same recourse back than if a woman, oh, sorry, if a man would like be a woman or something like that. Now I would never dismiss that there are advantages on either side. Now when we discuss male privilege, just where the net of those advantages fall, right? So you can cite like the criminal justice system. So I do apologize, I know you're from Israel. I'm gonna use like America as an example, and a large portion of my argument does stem from that American context, but it's probably somewhat applicable to yours as well. So like in a criminal justice context, men are more likely to be arrested, more likely to go to prison, more likely to get the death penalty, more like all of these things, right? That do disadvantage men. And I'll never say they don't. Now what I'm saying is within the context of what we value in American society, i.e. when you're born in this country, your capacity to provide for yourself and achieve in society is easier if you are born a man, because you'll just have more advantages and socially will give you to work jobs that give you more money, which give you more autonomy, which give you more power. And women are ushered into other careers, or and then even when they get the same careers, they're still at 5% gap. So I can acknowledge what you're saying. It's still on the whole, it's still an advantage towards being born male. So you said that they were ushered into those positions. Now, why would you say they are ushered in? Or would you say they're forced into those positions? It's like a cultural thing. Like it's nothing that's like hard or crazy, right? So I give an example of, or one of the things I said was over the past 30 years, right? So you can look at like the women owning business statistic, which over the past, I'm gonna bush this a little bit, but I'll say in Congress, I know over the past since the 1970s till today, went from like 5% to like 29%, or 25% whatever it was, as similar with female business owners in this country. Now, it's not that women didn't wanna do these things, it's that there was a built in societal expectation towards these things. Now, it's not anyone's fault, but that is an impairment on their capacity to like be independent. And you can disagree, like I'm talking about individuals a lot here, and I don't necessarily think individualism is a good thing, but I'm saying as a society, is something that we tend to value. As a result of us valuing it, that puts weight on our capacity to achieve those things. And then we basically usher men towards, and we've been getting better at it as I admitted, that we just usher men towards being able to achieve those things better than women can. Okay, so you said there was a woman in Congress of God has gone from 5% to 24%, and I would say that doesn't mean much, it's fantastic that women in Congress, is it fantastic? Is it a good thing that there are more women in Congress? Does it means that they are better serving the constituents who are they best representing? I think that still of us, we're both men, but however, we have largely different views. And I would say that voting for someone based on their agenda, just because you want to see them in a particular position is a pretty awful reason to vote for that person. I'd also say, yeah, voting for someone based on their agenda, that is an awful decision, that's a bad way to make a government, wouldn't you say? To clarify, I do agree. For example, when people are like, oh, Bernie versus Elizabeth Warren, they're like the same person except for, sorry, American politics here a little bit, but they're like the same person except for Sanders as a woman, so she's got that card. And I'm like, no, they're not the same person. One policy is better than the other. Oh, sorry, what? Warren's a woman. But I said that backwards, I'm sorry. I meant to say that she's a woman therefore. Okay, well, you know, point taken. So you can put it that way, but it's like, no, like you want someone with good values, right? You wouldn't want Sarah Palin as president if you value left leaning principles just because she's a woman. Like obviously that's a standard. My point isn't more so should you vote for someone because they're a woman, but more so if you were a woman and you want to do things to change stuff, there is a constituent of people who will say like, oh, women are too emotional to be like president or governor or a leadership position because reasons. And to that I would say that that isn't correct. We have seen what Angela Merkel and Jacinda from New Zealand, I forget what her surname is, the Prime Minister of New Zealand where they have led their countries exemplary well in fantastic examples of females in power. And I think I mentioned to you earlier when we spoke much, much earlier that there would be a large area of agreement with us. And I think where it stems from is how the difference in our position would be how to best move forward. And you said that there has been great progress that's been made. And I agree with you. And from what I'm seeing over here in Israel is that there's now for some reason, I don't know why. It has a few guesses, but out has it. Progress has halted and it's began to stagnate. And it's a lot of complaining and whining and moaning that oh, because you're a man you don't have to feel worried about walking down an alley. And that's just whining or because you're a man you don't have to worry about someone saying your promotion was because you got down on your knees for your boss. For me, that's whining. It's complaining and I don't appreciate that. You said it to your, I think it was in your opening a few minutes where you said that being a man it does grant you certain advantages but it doesn't take away from the hard work but in all cases. Well, but like the inverse is true what you're saying there, right? So I don't like me, I'm a white straight dude like I get a job like, hey, I don't ever have to worry about like someone saying like, he got that just cause he's a white dude, you know? But what you're saying is always true women and that's a stigma that they have to run from because it's expected that there's something like that. What you're saying is the expectation that there's supposed to be men here or maybe white men or whatever and anything except from that is a deviation from the norm and the norm and that norm is the privilege, right? And so a woman might have to work harder to just like get the same like level of respect in that same job. You said that again, I think there's something in the beginning. So like I will never be looked at and you will never be looked at when we get a job as, oh, they just got that because like they're the token white guy at this place, right? But if you're in the US context, if you're black if you're a fair woman or like whatever, they'd be like, oh, you know, they were the diversity hire. Like you will get that stigma and you're talking about how like, oh, that's whining but like it, while you might look at us complaining and like I think you can have both these points at the same time, right? One, I don't think it's useful for people to individually hark on like, oh, I didn't get that job because like I'm a dude or I'm a woman or I'm black or I'm white. I don't think that's useful from like a self-help standpoint. You should always just try and do your best in the circumstance that you're in, which I think is what you're sort of getting at. Like it is what it is, do your best. I think we can have that position while also saying we should work towards having a society where we don't look at like a woman and go, oh, they just needed like a woman. So that's why we got her or oh, we needed a black person. So that's why we got them. Okay. So to that I would say, it could be possible I don't want to say that you got your job, wherever you got your job because you were a white man and because they felt it was more convenient to hire you because your looks fit in with the rest of the company. That could also be said, why could that not be said? It just isn't expected though, that's why. How has that expected that you are, that you were hired because you were hired to fit in with the company? Those that takes away from me, that takes away from your achievement from your credentials, you're hired because it's expected to hire the straight white guy. So in a sense, like knowing that like I might get hired for a job because like I'm a dude and they saw me like, oh, like, you know, he's a dude similar to me. Like we'll get along. Like does that take away from my achievement? Like on a technicality, yes, but I don't think we would ever conceptualize in that way. Well, I think the psychological pressure of being perceived as like that diversity hire is what's always going to be there. And like, even when they get these jobs, they're paid less. Like we can still go back to that. You can get them the same job, 5% differential and paid. Well, like even ignoring like how we socially conditioned people to get different positions, there's still that difference in pay for same work. I'm actually, I'm very happy you brought that up and I'm very happy that you're using it's a 5% on this control. It's a 5% difference. Yep. Why would you say that is? Because from what I understand, there are laws against pay discrimination but you have to pay, you know, within a margin the same amount for the same work. I don't know necessarily why that exists. Like, but here's the thing. It doesn't matter whether why it exists. Could men have an average 30 IQ? Well, no. So it matters to the second part of the argument of why does this advantage exist? But if we're just talking about does a male privilege exist? Let's say men make 5% more because we have a 5% higher IQ on average, right? It doesn't matter that we have the 5% IQ. If we're discussing why the privilege exists, the privilege would be, it would exist because I have a 5% higher IQ because I'm a guy, but like, then that privilege exists. You're just acknowledging the privilege exists and you're saying here's why it exists. Like you can say here's why it exists, right? But like you're acknowledging it exists when saying that. Okay, so for me, the second part is also extremely important in saying why it exists because it tends to the validity of it existing if it is in fact a real privilege. Now when it comes to the pay-grace, it has three things. So when it comes to that 5% difference, it's largely down to men being less agreeable than women, men being more willing to negotiate and take that risk of saying, I deserve a few extra dollars per hour and risking that and saying that I'm worth an extra $5 to $10 per hour because of X, Y and Z. And I don't think men should be disadvantaged for that. I don't think they should have to pay a cut because they can't- They're advantaged for it. They're advantaged for it. How are they advantaged for it? That's more advantage. Well, why are they better at asking? So we're in a society that values making more money. Like this is true. I don't know how true it is in Israel and here the amount of money you make is kind of important. Every American is very much valued with their higher fact. What's up? We're a country of Jews. Money is very important. It is a big driving factor. It is. You can safely say that every family has a lawyer. Every family has a doctor here. So we're just seeing every family has an accountant. So money, it's a huge driving factor. But it is important. So like the point I'm trying to make is like you're describing the advantage and then telling me why that advantage takes. The debate topic, like if we look at it, it's just does male privilege exist? And the answer that you're telling me is that privilege exists. That advantage, you said a disadvantage. Why should men be disadvantaged to make less money? But like by saying that you're saying men already have an advantage and by bringing them to parody would be a disadvantage. You're describing an advantage. And like saying is that, okay. Sorry, what I'm saying is I agree with you that the important discussion is like what privilege. So like for example, in a perfect world like all egalitarianism maybe like men will be biologically driven to be nurses 45% of the time and women would be 55% of the time. And maybe the wage we demand for nurses is always just gonna be lower than that of a doctor due to educational demands. Like that is distinctly possible and I'll never deny that. Or I won't deny that there could be some difference there and just talking about like where is there a biological thing and where is there like unjust societal pressure or coercion towards jobs that are lower paying or telling women like just be happy with what you got. Like don't ask for more money. That's where the interesting conversation is and I agree with you that that's where the interesting conversation is. But like here we're just talking about whether it exists. And like I agree that's uninteresting because it does exist. And like the actual interesting conversation is well, why does it exist and what can we do? What should we do? But like first you just say it does exist. Okay, so to that. And I think I said this in the opening where men do have certain advantages and women have certain advantages and there are disadvantages to both genders in different aspects. There are different privileges given to both genders. They are different. And I agree that race isn't part of this discussion. However, there are times in our places where it has been official to be let's say African-American or African. But if I did set the very end of my opening and this would allude to perhaps the second part is when the language is used regarding the privilege that men have. For whatever reason, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach that we're also talking about social engineering. Talking about things that are on the long lines of communism, socialism and forcing society to behave away which we think is fair which I do not agree with. Well, we'd always do that though, right? Like the United States, we had slavery which we thought was fair and just because black people couldn't take care, I don't want to like diversion to like liquefuse or anything but we create a society with rules that we want that we think encompasses fairness in which we conceive it. Now I conceive, I want to mitigate external pressures that drive people to like do things that they otherwise wouldn't want to do, right? So if I can have like a representative sample of like women in media, right? Like a common example is like the Scully Effect where women didn't really look towards hard sciences in the United States and then a show called The X-Files was on from like the mid 90s to early 2000s or something and she was like a strong, like very stoic, like very smart scientist and that drove a lot of women into these STEM fields. Now, it wasn't that women just didn't like STEM, it's that they didn't have a role model, they didn't have encouragement to do these things even though they were apparently very capable of doing that. So I want like to minimize that coercion, sorry. I don't know why they would say, why I understand on the surface why say they have no role models. However, on the top of my head, there's Marie Curie and there I suppose a variety of other female scientists have done major works for humans. There's also how we found the double helix, there was a woman who found that out. So they have been, I would perhaps, yeah, that was it. Wasn't it two male scientists? One of them was like a crazy white nationalist, wasn't it? I think you're doing a Francis Crick and someone, I think as soon as working with him. It's the English like white nationalist guy now, I think. Sorry. Maybe, it's a real guy's name. It's fine. And the thing is they stole slide number 53 it was from her photographs from what she'd been documenting. So it was, and when they got the Nobel Prize, so officially they were the ones with the recognition but when they got the Nobel Prize they did not recognize it, they didn't mention it at all. However, it was a female who actually discovered that. So even more recently it was, one of the quotas who gave us the picture of the black hole was a female. So there are definitely female role models but I think we're also getting slightly off the topic. Well, as Tom's saying, man. I have a suspicion. We could try and like bring it back in a second. So like my point from that is more so like, there's less of them and like the still effect demonstrates that, right? You can see, I don't know, I don't know how the exact number is off hand, but like after she appeared as that role model, a widely accessible role model, not like a dead scientist or like the early 19th, I don't know when Carrie was alive, what early 20th century, I think? 1800s. Oh, whoops. Okay. I was off by 100 years, whoops. Yeah, it's fine. Like that's only really a modern role model for people to follow. Like it's like maybe it sounds super. People see like, oh, Doctor House on TV. I want to be a sarcastic doctor and tell them patients why they're dumb and like carrying their problems or whatever. People look to that, like the TV and the media they consume to inspire them to do a thing. Now, once again, like it's not that people are innately, like women are innately driven away from these high salary fields. It's that there was seemingly not social incentives and there weren't like encouragement for them to do it, which in a society, once you have to bring it back to this good matters in this context, where you value individualism, which entails your ability to provide for yourself, not be dependent on others to like look as though, like to your capacity to achieve that like American dream and like self-determination. Sorry, I keep going to the U.S. context. I know you guys as well. That's fine. I guess you can probably understand it, but like these metrics are directly impacted by like the careers you're shoved into. Or that you're going back to the shoving job. Yeah, okay, because I was gonna jump on that because I, from especially in the West and when we spoke about it was more about does male privilege exist in the West? And I said, it's no, I don't accept that in the context that you're using or most leftists would be using, I do not agree that exists in that context because women have the choices they can go into whatever fields they wish to go into. It would, it is, and I will say it, and not just for women, but for anyone trying to break into a new field, anyone trying to join a new club, it is exceptionally difficult because of the culture that is already there. And so I don't know if you play any sports. I play rugby, I love playing rugby. So if anyone had to join the rugby team and they had nothing supposed to rugby culture beforehand, the amount of abuse that they would receive would be amazing. However, when I say, I mean verbal abuse, however, someone who's been brought up in that culture and someone who has grown up that way, it comes from a pace of love. We give each other a hard time, however deep down we love and we care about each other and we're willing to help each other. When we're playing a game, 15 of us on the field, we will put our bodies and we do put our bodies on the line. But when that comes and we will give each other a lot of grief and a lot of shit just because we can, just because we feel comfortable. So if someone is going to come into a new field, it's up to them to adapt to that new field and deal with that new field. It's not up to that field or that company to change who they are and what they stand for just because someone else, someone new is coming in. Okay, I kind of want to go to this one. So I'll give you the example of like Congress before, right? I hear what you're saying about like kind of like adapt to that culture, but like that culture can also like be more welcoming and I think it's good to have a more welcoming culture because like you said, Marie Curie, right? Imagine if like they didn't let women go to school, right? If we just banned Marie Curie from like going to, I assume she probably was educated in like some sort of medical or science field. We just didn't let her do that. Then we wouldn't have, I forgot what she did. What was it? Kind of, no, what was in, right? Okay. So the example I want to go to is like, so I said that in 1970, 5% of Congress were women, right? And I think we'll just say, for the sake of argument, I think it's somewhere around there, let's say like 5% of women were business owners. Was there male privilege then? What would you say male privilege, what we say male privilege, just how? Well, you should say male advantage, right? So I said like adip conveys an advantage where if you were in a society that values autonomy, the values of financial independence, the values gaining power over your own life, right? Would you think that 5% of women owning businesses and the other 95% being owned by men, do you think that would be a form of advantage that men would experience or disadvantage women would experience, however you're going to word it? I wouldn't say it was advantage or a disadvantage. I would admit that it would be difficult for me, I would admit that there would be perhaps obstacles. As I said, breaking into a new business, breaking into a new society, it's very, it's difficult. There are many obstacles to overcome. But why those obstacles exist? Because you're trying to break into a set club. So I would not say it's because it is a male club, it is because they have a penis between their legs that they have that advantage is because that society, that group already exists as it is. It wouldn't matter, any new person coming into that, any new company coming into that, anyone joining Congress who's unused to that environment would be at a disadvantage where they would be male or female. So would you say you think like, let's say if you joined Congress as a woman in 1976, right? Do you think you would get an equal amount of hazing rituals as a man who joined Congress in that same timeframe? Or do you think the one would probably get a little more crap? You might actually have fewer. I think I might have fewer depending on what those hazing rituals are. Sorry, when I say hazing rituals, I just mean like, will you be treated differently? Call your doll, not take your opinion seriously, blah, blah, blah, right? You would probably have to work more in that environment, because you're a woman, this man's field, this man's job. I mean, if we value power, money, these things to achieve individualism and self-actualization in that respect. Now, once again, I'm not saying I value individuals. I'm saying in a society that values these things, your ability to go to Congress or start a business and have like five times the likelihood compared to today, or five, whatever, we'll say five to 95%, like clearly one gives you more of an advantage than the other, right? No, I would not say one gives you clearly more of an advantage, because there is that increase. And I think it wouldn't be important to talk about why there is that increase in representation. And I don't necessarily think that more representation is a good thing, because it goes down to who is best going to serve the public, or who is best going to serve the constituents. I think we both agreed earlier that a female does not necessarily serve female constituents the best. For example, if there was a female in Congress who was anti-abortion, that would be against the interests of those females who are full of all, let's say, pro-choice, I think that would be a better way to phrase it. And it may be a better, they'll prefer a male candidate, would they not? So I would say that I think it's a lazy heuristic, but it's an accurate heuristic. So for example, someone like, well, we'll go back to the very same Elizabeth Warren example, I don't need to look at a heuristic and say, okay, who would care more about men or women's issues, the man or the woman, because they both have long political histories that you can evaluate, see what they've done, blah, blah, blah. But as a rule of thumb, a woman's probably gonna care more about woman-centric issues than a man would care about man-centric issues. In the medical field, for example, a lot of medicine, they would test exclusively on men, I don't have to say, I don't have time, I'm just something I'm thinking of. They would test on men, because they're like, oh, men are just women, but without all those hormones. But it's not really true. And it's something you need to take into account, you're in this circumstance where you have tons of people who are doing research. We're only gonna test it on men because the hormones are complicated and they complicate our research results. So we'll just do men because they're just women with no hormones, which is clearly not true. But you have that because that's just kind of how they're thinking, and they're not mentioning it. It's just weird. If that's the way they're thinking, that is wrong, and I would chastise them greatly for that. And it's not, it's important to know how. It's not fault to be clear. Pardon? Sorry, I just want to clarify. I don't think that's their fault. I don't think they're actively being sexist, but it's just that environment where you're just surrounded by dudes, you're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the estrogen, it's just getting in the way. That having a period once a month, like it's messing with our test results. Like it'll be the same if we do it the other way. And it's like, well, like, yeah, that wasn't true. But that's that disadvantage that comes from not being in those positions or power, not being in that room, not being able to talk. Okay, so what I haven't said to you earlier is that I'm studying chemistry. So I'm in the STEM fields. And if anyone was saying that in the lab, we would give them a smack because there are many variables that we could take into account. And estrogen would be one of them. It would be depending on what that particular drug might be, what it might do. However, knowing how it affects male and female, it's very important. I think it was Viagra initially was supposed to be for heart medication. We found it had different uses and it was tailor-made for men then, just as an example. So it is very important. And taking those things into account, it's very important. So I would very highly chastise anyone, any scientist researching something like that, heavily if they did not take that into account. And I would show up in the results because there would be people who would take that into account. And I would say your results are kind of wonky. We've had decades of medicine that's had this problem. It's an anecdote, I guess. But I think there was a comedian in the United States who was like, Wanda Sykes was talking about how she was diagnosed with something and her doctor didn't take pain seriously. And I can't remember if it was a response to a medication or something where it had this known response in women and a different response in men. Maybe it was, I think it might have been, she thought she was having a stroke. And I think that the way a stroke manifests and I think it was a stroke, about 100%. Whatever the symptoms were, it's different in men and women and the doctor didn't believe her because he's just used to the symptoms as it's known as occurring in men. But like, this is a disadvantage for women, no? When your doctor lets you have a stroke. It is, I would still say tentatively, no, not as bad men, that's bad practicing, that's a bad doctor. And that's, it's sort of like. I am very hesitant, I'm very hesitant to concede many things over here. But the things I don't know, it's not what you're saying. I get what you're saying. And I've said this a few times at the beginning where there's a lot of areas where we overlap and we agree. So yes, so one of the sites was, here it is, you're talking about then she, yeah, it is unfortunate for her. Well, I'd say like I would, like there have also been different studies about how like doctors as an example, predominantly white field, at least like the United States or at least historically, I assume probably still is, where they like don't give pain killers to black people. I mean, I guess fortunately now they weren't, they weren't burdened by the opioid crisis as much as white people were, but they like doctors don't perceive black people as experiencing as much pain as white people. And like there was like psychology tests for this too. James probably familiar with it, but where like when they show children like black skin, getting pin predictor white skin, you're only able to draw the empathetic response when it's like your skin color or something like that, right? And I don't know if that's learned or if it's default, but like that leads to black people and ostensibly women whose symptoms or whatever wouldn't be taken as seriously without like someone else being able to be there, like representing that viewpoint either during research or during training or during or in the exam room, you know? I'm not saying you need 50-50 parity no matter what. So they're definitely advantages to having better representation and better parity in these. I'm not saying it's gotta be one-to-one, but it's clearly better that it's there than it isn't because I mean, your pain killers. So I am aware of the study you're referring to where people when they were showing pictures of people with the same skin tone being injured, being more sympathetic if that person had the same skin tone. I'm aware of that. And I would say that's more, I think I might get crucified for this somehow, but it's more that we are, we see a person on the same skin color. We, for whatever, involuntarily, and they've made the evolutionary reasons, we see, okay, this is part of our tribe, our tribe is being hurt. We see someone who is from the outside being hurt. Yeah, we don't care. I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying, get more annoyed today. Yeah, I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying that could be an excuse for bad behavior. I'm not saying that's an excuse for not being empathetic. I do believe we've shown that over time we haven't been able to overcome that. My point with that was more so that that you do have things that get perpetuated unconsciously that do lead to those types of biases that then manifest as a concrete disadvantage, right? Like the Hark on that example, like having a stroke because the doctor was just unaware women manifest stroke symptoms in a different way than men. Or I really hope it's strokes. I keep saying it, but that's like a serious problem that manifests itself in an actual disadvantage that is clearly added. So to that, I would say there are probably many examples that we could take of how disease perhaps present differently in someone in the minority. So as I said, I'm living in Israel, however, I grew up in South Africa where the whites are definitely the minority. So there are perhaps in certain instances where doctors aren't fully aware of any differences that they may be in the minorities. And I think that boils down more to education than anything else. Well, I would say like what you described. So I think you would, so again, so the states where white men are the majority or white people are the majority. And I think you brought up that study. It's with the pinpricks and then empathy. So it, oh, for what was I going to say? It has more to do I think with education than anything else in the way people are brought up. And how and how they behave in society. Well, that's sort of manifesting itself as like a power or I guess, sorry, a privilege or like an advantage that results from you having more power in society, which just comes back to what I was saying that that's what privilege or advantage describes. Like whatever you want to say, that by no real virtue, you're just born into into a race or a class or sex that just at that moment in time comes with certain advantages that like you otherwise just don't have. And like it doesn't make men bad. It doesn't make whatever it doesn't make, it doesn't make anyone bad for that. It's just the statement of like the world as it is. And then we decide what we want to do with that. Like we were kind of like going towards that a little bit and I kind of pulled it back and saying, well, this question just does that privilege exist. And I think we both agree the more interesting conversation is how do we approach that? What do we do? But I don't think you can say it doesn't exist. And then say, what do we do about it? Because you say it doesn't exist, then you don't do anything, right? I don't say, well, let's fix my car even though my car doesn't exist. You have to acknowledge you have a car and then say, do I need to fix my car? Yes or no? Not, I don't have this thing. Then do I fix it? No, you don't fix the thing that's not a problem or not there. Yes. And I do agree that the more interesting conversation is how do we fix it, the more why? The why behind is a sub-problem. And I have said that men do have certain advantages in life, just as women have certain advantages in life. But as to it being male privilege, especially in the way, so remember I brought up, it was a Peggy McIntosh? I recall the name, I don't remember it was. Yeah, so Peggy McIntosh, she had 46 points of privilege that I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, this is absolutely rubbish, this is absolutely BS. And it's going to apply to anyone and anywhere. And if these are your major issues that turning, if your major issues turning on the TV and seeing people, we're seeing lots of males, if that is your biggest issue, then I think you got it pretty good. I think that is a great, as far as disadvantage is going, well, advantage is good, that is, oh, I'm sorry, I need to set it in reverse. If you're a woman and you turn on the TV and your biggest gripe is there are too many men on TV and not even a woman, I think that is a fantastic disadvantage to have. Hey, it's way better than it was 30 years ago and 30 years ago was way better than it was 100 years before. But hey, guess what, 30 years from now, I want us to look back and say, hey, you know what? It's better now than it was 30 years ago. That's what I want to do. It is, and I do think we have been progressing very nicely, especially over the past, since I've progressed over the late 1800s, we have progressed immensely. The glass ceilings have been shattered all along the way. Clinton, remember, she won the popular vote, correct? I've got one thing. You won the popular vote. President Clinton's killing it right now. She's doing great. No, that's the thing that comes down to the electoral college. That's why I'm, I don't get into if the electoral college is a good thing or not. Hey, the electoral college is in census, it's racist, okay? Different conversation, different time. I'm assuming that that is a great choice for the Americans that they will get married with much. I pissed off half the show, but it's okay. Yeah, that's fine. I don't like them anyway. They will deal with it, they will live with it. So, and I've said that, what I've been saying from the beginning is that right now, what I'm hearing from, not particularly you, but from the feminist side, is that there's a lot of waning and moaning about how women are still underrepresented. And I had thought of playing a clip of Bill Burr, the wonderful red-headed comedian. I do like that. I love Bill Burr. We're both just, to some extent. But what he was saying was when he was asked by a female interviewer, can women be funny? And he responds by saying, yes, horsemen can be funny. Now, he says, if you find yourselves at a club and no one's letting you in, fine, don't go into that club, build your own club. Build your own clubhouse, build your own society, build your own company, build your own clubhouse, build your own companies, and absolutely kill it, absolutely crush it there. But stop complaining, stop moaning and whinging about how life is unfair. Life is very unfair. And as, like, sorry, what I have to say on this is that as white as I may be, as produced as I may be, this doesn't help me pay rent. Nothing's gonna help me pay rent, apart from me going to work and actually getting a paycheck. Hey, you know what helps you pay rent? 5% more in income. Hell yeah. Not really, not. What did you say? Like, I would be making quite a bit more money with 5% more money. Like, what's that? Like, I don't know, $3,000 more a year? Yeah, I know what I'm saying about that. So I, as a student, I'm working part-time job, so actually 5% that is maybe an extra half a beer. I would get an extra half a beer. What would half a beer make you happier? Versus no beer? Not as happy as a whole beer. Listen, I'm just saying. No, because it's either full beer or no beer. Quite a bit happier to pay a whole lot of my rent, you know? That's bigger than what I get back in taxes every year. That's a lot of money. So that, I would say to you, negotiate that. All right. You want that extra five percent? You're done. Negotiate that. Listen, I want, we're going to, we're going to harken back to what I think is a question that'll be hard for you to answer. So before we talked about like, I kind of referenced like, how do you fix a thing that's not there? We both talked about the interesting thing is, what do we do here? And I kind of went like, well, how do you fix it if you don't acknowledge this there? Because what a lot of people do, my issue with like a topic like this or like white privilege or like whatever, anything that's sort of used the word privilege because it's like a horribly, a horrible marketing ploy if nothing else, like it's a terrible thing. And it's got tons of, that's why I use the word advantage for this whole time instead of saying privilege because like it just like, like you said, it puts that pit in your stomach like, ah, he's full, he's full of it, you know? And I get it because it sounds like I'm trying to like diminish and take away from what people did. Like, no, I still like took every class and still got every A I've ever earned. I still did all of that. But like, was it easier because my parents were like upper middle class? Well, yeah, definitely it was easier. Was it easier that they helped me pay tuition? Yeah, it was definitely easier. It was like, like these things were just easier by being born into this advantageous situation. It's just, it's that simple. It's just statistically, that was much easier for me. But my point being, sorry to bring it back to that is, like how can you fix the thing that you don't acknowledge is there? Because we both said it's worth talking about like why these disadvantages or advantages exist. But my point is that you have to say it's there before we can talk about like what we do about it. Morgan Freeman was in an interview some years ago and the person who was interviewing was white and he asked him, how would you fix racism? And what I've been saying is fairly similar except I've swapped out racism for privilege or advantage. Oh, you're talking about the Morgan Freeman quote, right? Like stop talking about it? Yeah, stop talking about it. And it's not to say that I forbid you from talking about it doesn't exist. I'm sticking my head into the sand and say that it doesn't exist at all. Because I think I've been coming and saying that some or males do have some privileges depending on the context. What I am saying is that it doesn't exist in the way that oh yeah, you've been feeling reasonable about it. Reasonable about it, but it doesn't exist in the same way as that thems are talking about it. Doesn't exist in even the way I say that you are talking about it. Do you think we need to be fixed? I would say yes, but and I will keep on reiterating this. Let's stop moaning and complaining about this. Well, no, let's do the work. No, well, that's the thing. Talking about it is part of doing the work, right? Part of activism that leads to change is talking about it. Like the civil rights movement talked about an issue. They kept talking about it. Then eventually things changed. You have to talk about things before they change. The whole Morgan Freeman don't talk about it thing. I said to my majors in criminology, I tend to study radicalization. As a byproduct of that, I try to learn more things about racism. The whole not talking about race has actually just made racism worse in this country. Because you can look at how people like Donald Trump's not racist, he didn't say the N-word in front of a camera. And it's like, well, yeah, he didn't just say the N-word in front of a camera, but racism isn't just saying the N-word in front of a camera, it's way more than that. But when you devolve racism to this weird binary of you're racist and you're evil, or you're not racist and you're not evil, and then racism is only a hood-wearing KKK member, then it's impossible to talk about what is or isn't racist and what we can do about it. And it's the same thing for this, right? If you just say, like, don't talk about it, well, if we don't talk about it, you can't change anything. Okay, so that's where I think nuance is needed. When he says, let's stop talking about racism, it's not we're gonna stick our heads, like, gosh, you're just into the sand and we're going to ignore racism. It's, let's stop just talking about it. It's not saying that if we stop talking about it, it will just magically go away. When you're saying it's, okay, we've talked about it, we've identified that there is a problem. But if we're just going to talk about it, nothing's gonna happen. Nothing's going to change. So you talk about the civil rights movement. So they said that there is this problem and then they went out and they did something about it. And if there are people who are holding women down, if there are people who are going to be disadvantageing other people based on gender, skin color, anything, I would be there with you saying, hey, he shouldn't be doing it, that is wrong. I disagree with what you're doing. Let's try and build a better society. But I don't think we're gonna get there if we keep on talking about men have a better woman because they have a penis. That's actually the answer. It's not just because they have a penis. It's just because the culture of the penis, okay? Like that, to put it ridiculously, like it's sort of that. It's that like we have a culture that over time, like, oh, you're less the bit that they sent me was with like a religious fellow, right? And you came from it with a secular standpoint. Like you could probably agree that religion tends to be sexist, right? Or no? And there's a very, very tame word for what I would use. Okay, well, I'm saying like we live in societies that are founded based off religion. Like you live in a Jewish state, right? I live in a country that was overwhelmingly Christian or I think it was, I think it's Protestant. We live in a, like I don't go down to the religion debates. It's not something that I'm that interested in. So I'm gonna, you might be able to butcher me for this, but like we had those values that tended towards sexism and they didn't just disappear. They were entrenched in certain ways. And maybe we removed certain religious wording or removed like certain like specific laws or whatever, but it doesn't mean like the core of that, but like thought process isn't embedded in a culture. And like that, like it takes time to like get rid of that. Like I said, we've made huge progress over the past, I say 30 years, like it's 2000, but I say the 70s and I say 30 years, but it's been like 50, I guess, right? Like God. Yeah, I've said it's been much, I've said it's been much longer than that. The progress that has been made, I think was in the West was at 94, that was when did woman get the vote? I'm trying to... In the U.S. I think it was the 20s, the suffrage movement. I think it's the 20s. I think it's 20. I think it was 1912, England got it was. So most Western countries got it in the early 1900s. So even from then, I'll say there's been progress that has been made and it has been because women and to some extent men have been saying that men have a certain place in society that by virtue of birth by virtue of gender they have not earned however that progress is in danger of stagnating because I really I don't know why but now it's a lot of money and complaining about how difficult difficult it is to break into the boy clothes circle boy clothes and to that I say just shut up and do the work if you want to come up and join if you if you want to come up to the view to to see the view that we have then do the work I can't say every guy will help you on your way up here but the work is both parts though it's not just doing it's also talking like that I think that's what it's trying to get up the civil rights movement the civil rights movement wasn't let's talk about it until 1960 and then 1960 we stopped talking and we do like no like doing and talking they're like the same thing it's a dialogue that helps us learn about the nature of the problem helps public awareness of the problem and drives a desire to solve a problem now do we have laws saying women can't hold office no but we have I think we still have laws saying women can't be Marines no ways and Marines now it's special forces or something like we have laws restricting that and we have like other weird like niche things but there are like still societal implicit things that tend towards an effect like that's what I'm sort of trying to talk about like that privilege is just things that tend towards an effect not something specifically and codified in law just like understood so on that note I did not want women serving the front line with me I love them dearly I appreciate them but I used to serve I spent the year and four months on the front lines or in front line you know I do not want a woman there with me I expect them I appreciate them I'm sure that there are some of them who are stronger than me put them in that's more capable but on the whole no they should not be there but that's a bit of a separate issue yeah I guess we'll put a pin in that one before we put a pin in that one might be for another night so that would be another night that is not something that would be in favor of for a variety of reasons um I was so you're talking about the civil rights movement in the 60s and 70s so maybe the last issue we'll cover before q&a okay sure um so it was a civil rights movement in 60s and 70s just abstractly doing what what yes so it is so it comes up when we're talking it's more detrimental than a more divisive than actual actions and I think that is where we are today with the just the panel talking it's far more detrimental than the actions that are being taken then we need to start doing more so there's less talking we start taking a real front of action you know uh what's poor choice of words oh no I didn't mean it I didn't mean it like that that was just we start taking a direct action I don't know I didn't mean any of the front actions taking I know what you mean I know what you mean but it is taking I don't think we're taking more action and towards getting more if you want more representation should go for if you want to win in higher power positions sure to go for but they're gonna have to adapt to the corporate society they're gonna have to adapt to the uh the corporate structure they're gonna have to put in the time and the efforts all these like those things I I guess the last point I'm gonna go like the q&a is like those things aren't monoliths they like they like adapt over like time or whatever you know um like like a corporate environment isn't just that corporate environment it will change like day to day year to year decade to decade if it's you know still around that long this is something that we can actively take apart in but just like being more aware of our behaviors of how things are and like one day if I have a daughter like I would want her to be able to do whatever she wants with like the least coercion saying like you got to be a nurse or like whatever and the more more representation so she feels like oh I can go do uh science things or whatever you know I'll let you like last I get what you're saying um and it's a good place to end off where all I have to say on that note is that ending a particular corporate culture overnight it tends to be about it to try and forcibly change um the atmosphere of any given company overnight or be relatively overnight would be a bad bad thing would be would lead to more divisiveness and less productivity okay sorry last thing I would just say I would I'm not saying overnight we need to mandate like 50 50 like gender egalitarian or gender equal representation I'm just saying it's something we need to like slowly incrementally work towards I'm not saying okay we need to all matter I feel like that you know oh no no I wasn't saying that we let overnight it's brought up to be 50 50 saying if there is going to be a change in the corporate atmosphere and the environment in which people are working it's going to have to take time it's going to have to be done slowly because there will be people on all sides who are going to object to it and best for me actually the best way to do it is to have a dialogue like this between the people who disagree but it's civil and to incrementally improve it and change it just a dialogue between two dudes talking about women perfect exactly how I want it I'm sorry I will the thing is this topic was on male privilege not on women we'll jump into the good old Q&A I want to say thanks so much everybody for your questions appreciate it and I want to remind you that our guests are linked in the description so if you want to hear more they're oh wait gosh you guys I'm so sorry this is one more interesting ones this has been a really interesting conversation so I actually have not gotten to it I'm getting to it now we will start reading the questions as I punch those in so first Rory Bork let me know Rory if I mispronounce this Bjorkman thank you for your superintendent said hey James have a beer on me stay positive and have a lovely day appreciate that support Rory and Andrew Handelsman thanks for your super chat said quote wait I'm not done insulting you unquote James from yesterday that's true poor Austin but yes let me check the standard questions as well thanks for your question from Ophir let me know if I mispronounce says question fewer than one percent of sewer workers are female is this also a male privilege who's that fool I guess it's for me because I'm saying male privilege I mean jobs like that pay pretty well so I would guess so right like those are usually unionized like civil service jobs like yeah why not like the thing is like it's just something well I say any one thing is in particular male privilege like probably not but you just want to say like on the whole is this an advantage is that an advantage right like construction jobs tend to pay more than I don't know working as a barista at Starbucks so like if men tend towards that like I used to do construction like you don't need muscles to operate a machine you just need hand dexterity you don't need muscles to like drill something in with a drill it is there was very few instances where like my raw strength is what mattered when doing that so I like if you have like more women should probably apply for that and maybe they would encourage it it would probably be uh be good if it pays well gotcha I think you know I think if you don't when I have two things I want to say on that I'm trying to have the actual stats of construction it's now 10 female I don't know exactly what they're doing I don't know how it's broken down but 10 female in construction um yeah and to I've never enjoyed that argument that men do the dirty jobs I've never found that to be a particularly useful argument in these kinds of discussions gosh and gauge paragon thanks for your question asks males and females both have their own privileges sometimes one or the other is blown out of proportion exaggerated etc but they're both there I guess I'll I guess I'll take that one um yeah so what I kind of said in the intro is that it's it's on the balance sheet right like yeah if you get arrested like the cops are more likely gonna believe you if you're a woman and like you'll probably get thrown in jail if you're a dude like if there's a domestic dispute they're probably gonna take away the dude over the over the woman like statistically that's probably a thing but on the whole like I kind of I sort of couch this in a discussion of like individualism and like what we value in achieving it in society like are there things that cut against men I admitted that in the get go there are things that benefit men and there are things that benefit women but on the whole there are more things that benefit went men in more significant ways and there are things that benefit women in more significant ways that's all it's pretty easy gotcha thanks for that and that is actually it for the questions let me know folks if I've missed any so thanks so much folks for hanging out it's always a pleasure and want to say a huge thanks both to GKR as well as David Levy it's been a true pleasure awesome David man having a conversation it was uh it was fun I was uh I was worried about thanks you guys what I'd be talking to you but it was uh it wasn't too bad you're you're agreeable I'm a nice guy I'm just gonna say I think you basically were saying privilege existed but just really don't like the word and I agree with you the term sucks we do have a last minute question from Ophir thanks for your question said Pakistan and Iran have more women in STEM than Denmark or Sweden please explain I think it's I have a very good friend his name is Ophir um however he would not spell his name this way and I don't see how that's entirely relevant to what we've been talking about oh fact check this Pakistan women in STEM doing a live fact check I think they're referring to some of the empirical papers that find that more individualistic western cultures have smaller proportions of women in the STEM fields than more collectivistic middle eastern uh and other traditional cultures that's interesting I never heard of that I think you could actually I had to take a dander at the different faculties um there are certain faculties which are dominated by females and there are certain faculties dominated by males why the why that is I have no idea that's for me I am very happy in the field that is dominated by women I'm very happy about that like being dominated by women huh cool respect I should not have said that gotcha so with that I want to say thanks so much everybody it has been a true pleasure hope you guys all take care over there we are I think it got scheduled is originally we had a debate on whether or not Islam fits western society scheduled for tomorrow it's been pushed to Monday so hopefully we see you for there or see you for that Jay thanks for your question said question for GKR is there a difference in income earning between men and women due to differences in job interest what's the problem yes that's the commonly cited 80 to I said 80 cents on the dollar some people say 77 cents like whatever that's the difference between difference in job um like career path that you like maybe more men seek towards like being doctors or whatever while more women want to be nurses that might be like a classic example now when you adjust it for job like career path and wages or sorry career path and hours work that's where you get the 5% number that I that I referenced so when you when you account for that you get 5% difference guys which my friend he ever said was due to uh they're like the head to ask for raises or something like that no the inability to or not in a boat is there they're less eager to win they were less able to negotiate a better salary they're less willing to do that and that's because they are more because women are more agreeable than men they're less likely to argue and push for extra money in their contract that's the male disagreement advantage right there I woman can do it as well there's no reason that woman cannot do this which is why I say quit your whining and actually do the work and argue so I just want every woman who listens to this stream all four of you to go to your boss tomorrow spit in their face and tell them you want to raise let me know how it goes just be as a person when they possible all right just step on their foot it'll be fine just purposely step on their foot just be really passive aggressive James W thanks for your question James said what about the percent of college admissions for men versus women I think that's because like more women tend to go into school now than men like I think I've shifted over like the past I'll say 10 years or so is that I assume that's what the question is all answers though that's the question um yeah there's definitely a skewed towards that um there's a lot of jobs that skewed towards men that can get you reasonable wages without the need for an education like union jobs where they go to a trade school instead of academia um and that's how they would go about getting like those decently paying jobs they're having to go through academia being settled with that so I see I think you're so I understand you're saying like in a boiled down way of you're responding that like men perhaps have less interest in college than women yeah women might be more pressured to do it in certain ways and there's just more opportunities for men to like work with their hands with like a like a work on cars or be a mechanic or becoming an electrician through a union that these things just don't pay really well and don't like a union can make a union uh sorry a union electrician can make like a hundred bucks an hour and you don't need any college for that you can just like join a union um depends where you live obviously but gotcha thanks yeah like actually may I may I just also add something to that sure okay so as we talked about earlier that it's um 80 woman and 80 cents on a dollar um that's just because what's not being taken into account is the job time I think this would have to be the reverse of this where more women are getting into universities because there are more courses being offered that are not in the stem field if you went to every stem field in the university the missions would be much higher for males if you went to say liberal arts or anything in in that sort of vein more women would be going towards that which I'd say this is an absolutely rubbish argument as well it's let's look at what they're going to study and what kind of degrees that they're trying to get gotcha well thank you very much let me just keep a quick peek let's see I think that is it so we do want to say thank you so much folks for your questions thanks so much for hanging out with us we will hopefully see you on Monday and you'll have a rest from us tomorrow as we have no debate scheduled for tomorrow so i'm gonna break over there thanks so much GKR and David it's been a true pleasure to have you guys and everybody out there keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable take care