 More often than not you hear this is I just want to be comfortable when we say that what we're saying or at least What we're explicitly saying is I want to physically be comfortable But really what we're subconsciously communicating is I want the comfort of low expectations You're listening to barbell logic brought to you by barbell logic online coaching where each week We take a systematic walk through strength training and the refining power of voluntary hardship You're listening to the barbell logic podcast, I'm Matt Reynolds. I'm here with my good buddy and my You guys some of you guys are gonna freak out my style coach Tanner Guzzi and here's the thing about Tanner Tanner's a lot like the rest of us Tanner is You're like a manly guy. You're a client of barbell logic Husband dad kind of Midwestern values kind of guy But your full-time job is you are a style coach much in the way that we are strength coaches Is that fair to say that is 100% fair to say? So for me when I thought about style when if I think about style coaches, you know, I some I'm gonna I think about a Fashion show in Europe where I see stuff where I'm like no normal human would ever wear any of that stuff You know and I think you and I have developed a friendship over the last several years We've gone to some conferences and spoken and then a couple years ago. I got your book the appearance of power Which you can get it's the best place to get that it's Amazon, right? Well, I just so you can go to Amazon and get that from Tanner and what I liked about it is is the one of the things You do is you really you showcase historical figures and historical groups of people like that That men specifically although this really applies to all demographics Dressed in a way That would get people to perceive them in the way they want to be perceived and the interesting thing about this is that for us for Coaching we define coaching as to like actual the lifting portion of coaching is to get your client to move the way You want them to move kind of according to a model and what you want to do is I think Is that you want to have your clients be perceived the way they want to be perceived and Most of them aren't doing that and so for me We started working together. I started coaching you in the squats in the deadlifts And you started coaching me in the style stuff and it's been a blast. Yeah, it has it's been a great trade So welcome to the show sir. Thank you for having me on I'm really looking forward to doing a deep dive on this With you and with your audience. Yeah, it's it's interesting because especially for our audience You know the the fitness world is rife with people who are obsessed with shallow aesthetics, right? Like that's That kind of bodybuilder group of people that niche is the niche that They all have their clothes tailored. Yeah, they go to the gym to get seen They're looking at themselves in the mirror when they're there like they're their style is totally on point They're sending all the right signals even when they're just in the gym. That's exactly right But we all know that most of them are douchebags and so and so Often I think that because I think we tend to throw the baby out with a bathwater in the strength community there And so you you then have this group of people who are primary listeners who are focused on strength and performance and health and quality of life and Aesthetics is a byproduct of that performance and most of our people look pretty good I mean, they certainly look like they lift right and maybe they're not quite as lean as they want to be or whatever those things are But our experience has been and I'll just speak for me personally is that I didn't really know how to dress For this sort of stuff and then and then one of the problems for a guy like me And I'm sure there's a lot of people that could identify even if their situation is a little bit different is I'm in the fitness industry, which is a very It's a very casual sort of dress injury industry I want a pretty good-sized company So I know that I'm not gonna dress like a CEO of a fortune 500 company in You know super nice suits all the time. This is not that's not what we do It's not a totally counter context to everything that you are and everything that you do it doesn't make any sense That's right. And so it's been really interesting to learn from you how I can dress To look the part that I am I am I am a strength coach. I am a lifter I am the CEO of a pretty good-sized company and how do I bring all those things together which are sort of a strange combination And I'm I've been so pleased with it that I wanted to have you on the show to kind of talk through some of those things so So let's start it kind of the very beginning When it's kind of interesting again I see I always see the parallels and what we do with what other people do So we start with and while I started with you was this very simple basic linear progression, right the basic lifts three sets of five Add a little weight every time like it's very simple and it doesn't get complicated for a while as a matter of fact It doesn't get complicated until it needs to And I've seen the same thing with the way you've handled what I'm doing The first thing you did was kind of take a you had me take a bunch of pictures of like that General things that I wear like what you know, what do you wear at home? What do you wear out on a date with your wife? What do you wear when you go somewhere nice? It's formal And we do all that you you kind of you kind of took inventory of what I look like that's by the way It's the exact same thing we do With people when our nutrition clients we have them do a visual food diet They literally take a picture of all this stuff they eat and we start making changes And so as you start to think not just about me but about your clients in general because you coach lots of guys like this What are those initial steps that you're trying to define? To to get someone to move the right direction like take that first step or that first couple steps In the right direction for style That's a good question And there's there's a lot of different facets to that the first thing And you guys and especially your community are a really good example of how this happens Is the first step is I try to break guys free of this very kind of one dimensional view of what style is and why it matters because Again your your example of the bodybuilders and we see a folk or a concern for aesthetics or at least an affinity for aesthetics As being vain or shallow or something else. And so you avoid that But then you trick yourself into thinking well what that means then is I don't care how I look right But The reality is is if you were to put on the exact same clothes that your typical douchebag bodybuilder wears in the gym And you go to your power lifting gym in your dress like that It's going to have a huge effect on you mentally and you're going to feel so you're going to feel Ridiculous in that in those clothes, right? And so it's helping guys understand that you can care about this stuff And you can care about it in a way that actually starts to benefit you And it doesn't mean you have to dress like the antithesis of who it is that you are Who it is that you want to be a lot of guys make that same mistake with formal clothing Right because again you doing what you do I have a lot of guys who work in the tech industry and to them a suit is anathema like you you don't wear a suit It's totally it's just as counter cultural for them as it is for you And we have this again one dimensional kind of false binary thinking of In order to dress better and in order to make myself be more stylish I have to dress more formally and that doesn't work either And so what you and I did as far as getting started and this is how I start with all my clients Is I got to take a baseline to see where you are And it's the same thing that it is with with strength coaching where yeah, you have the same kind of general baseline But ultimately what you and I are doing and how we're adapting my training for triathlon training because that's what I'm focusing on right now Would be very different than if I were training for a powerlifting meet sure right and they can still be There's still the same fundamental principles that are being followed But those tweaks that come in there are the devils in those details. That's right Strength still matters And fitness still matters regardless of whether the sport is pure strength Right powerlifting or is something that is more even say Endurance-based like what you're doing right now, which is competitive triathlons And so you bought into the strength training piece knowing that that supplemented the triathlon training Right exactly for me. I had to buy into the idea that it was okay I I could find a style that fit my culture and my niche. I mean, I'm in a niche. Yep That doesn't necessarily mean like I you know, I look at the way Actors who have played james bond have dressed for years and I'm like that looks awesome But that's not me right. It's not my culture and it's not my niche And so I always thought gosh It was a part of me that kind of wished I could dress that way But then in any time I did dress that way. I was incredibly uncomfortable right like I got a 21 inch neck How do I you know button in the top button and all the I'm just like, you know, and you've been at these some of these formal These conferences that you and I speak at and you can tell that I'm uncomfortable Right and you're like, dude, we can you can do better all the time. Yeah, that's right And that's exactly what you told me and so we and you didn't say that the first day we were together the first year We were together. I think it was the third year. We were together that together is a weird word The third year we knew each other and hung out where at this kind of similar sort of conferences That you finally said you can do better than what you're doing And so you started to walk me down that path and so What are some of those first lessons that I mean, I can tell you what the lessons are But you're what are the lessons that you start with? To start to identify The direction to go with somebody so the big thing is understanding what your context is Especially because anybody who starts to pay attention to style stuff Whether that's youtube channels or blogs or anything else they're going to talk about things like fit is king or All these other kind of tactical things that are details and that matters and you and I definitely went through that You and I as we were going through your pictures I told you the break is too long here. These aren't fitting you in the arms right there This is too droopy or too tight or whatever in that arena and fit absolutely matters, right? but fit is also something that's very contextual because We take this kind of idea of a suit or even gym clothes You look at what arnold was wearing in the 70s Yeah, and you walk into a gym a commercial gym wearing stuff like that today and you're going to look absolutely ridiculous Yeah, right. So he he pulled it off He did if you if you look like arnold, you still actually might be able to walk into it. You'll have an easier time Absolutely because context is determined by status and stuff like that. That's right. That's right But for the majority of us we have to be aware of what the context is and again We can go with the same metaphor of you walk into a powerlifting gym And you're dressed like a bodybuilder or like a crossfitter and you're immediately branded as an outsider And it's going to affect how other people treat you what kind of quality of coaching You're gonna get your own internal perception of yourself And same thing if you walk into a crossfit box and you're wearing your singlet that you would be wearing for a powerlifting That's a great example Yeah, and so it's understanding what these contextual cues are and how that applies in your life with your business With your family with all of these I call them tribes basically who these tribes are that you associate with Because then we can start to piece together What does good style look like for you because you're right It's not these these skinny joggers or the streetwear stuff Nor is it suiting and we've landed on something for you that really bridges that gap very well That's a great. That's a great Lead and it's kind of interesting one of the things that I think I'm thankful for In our industry for us with what we do in strength is it literally doesn't matter What uh side of the political spectrum you land on what side of the religious spectrum you land on Like all of those different don't matter what demographic you are it doesn't matter if you're old or young or male or female or Skinny or fat or whatever. Everybody needs to squat. Everybody needs a deadlift. Everybody needs to do the basic lifts But it's interesting for you. You have to get into some of that Even let's even use like without even get maybe getting into a more controversial section Maybe just like geography like where like I live in Missouri You live in utah like it's different like I live in springfield, Missouri Which so if if I had the exact same job into the exact same thing I do now But I did it in Manhattan. My style would be it would be different, right? So I live in Missouri so it's a little bit like it's naturally got to be more midwestern more More Casual more rugged There's got to be a little bit more of that thing than in new york that even if you have the exact same job It's got to be a little more professional a little more refined a little more polished. Absolutely, right? Yep, and even like with even with your casual stuff where What we're looking at for you are just good versions of some well done sneakers And if you were in south carolina, we could be looking at boat shoes Or if you were in the pacific northwest, we could be looking at berkenstocks or moccasins or something else And just that one little detail of geography changing and everything else being the same and it changes things Yeah, that's that's really good. All right. So so as you start to develop context first like who is the person Who are their tribes? Where do they live? How do they fit in that? What group of people are they comfortable with or what groups of people are they comfortable with? Then what is the next step that you you go towards? With with your clients body What does and doesn't work according to their body because that is something that is The least impacted by all these contextual cues. We talk about things like what does good fit look like or What kind of colors can you wear based on skin tone and stuff like that? I know a lot of you guys as you're hearing this you're thinking oh my gosh I don't want to have to think about that crap I don't want to have to worry about my skin tone or about my contrast type or all these other little details And the reason that I teach these guys this And you're already experiencing this is that it eliminates decision fatigue. That's right, right? Because you don't have to worry Well, I know one of the things that you specifically told me is I don't want to have to introduce a bunch of color into my wardrobe That's right, which I actually thought you were going to get me in trouble for like when we first started I thought you'd be like bro Let's expand the rainbow just a little bit and I was like man I'm mostly wear blues And grays and you're like and you know and whites and you're like perfect Yep, that's perfect because That's right because I've got this like Here's what I know like and for people that people, you know, most people know what I look like I'm kind of a red tinted guy like I'm a I'm what looks like a hypertensive White guy red doesn't go very like if I wear something red It just brings out the red in my cheeks and I get this rosacea and you know, and then if So it's bad But whereas I if I wear a you know a white or blue checkered oxford I've got real blue eyes and it and the eyes pop a little better and the super red cheeks don't At that point. Yep. It's gonna look healthier. That's right. It's honestly that simple It's not super complicated And then when you told me that was okay, and you and you kind of gave out Man, here's the colors that I wear Then it made I was like, oh, thank god like I don't have to I was like, I really don't want to wear greens and I don't want to wear reds And I don't want to wear yellows because that's just like it's not me And then and then let me we haven't even got here yet, but there you you and I talked a little bit about this in the beginning I'm a pretty confident guy and and I think people know that But I had some trepidation about as I started to Update my style. My first trepidation was with my family I didn't want my my wife and my daughters Both of whom are all of whom are pretty stylish to go like Bro, what that's cute dad. It does it doesn't it doesn't look like you You know and then same sort of thing and then as I started if you know Hang out with my staff or do videos for the youtube channel to be like, what is what's he doing? Like I didn't want it to look like midlife crisis mode Right. I'm 41 and be like, I see what he's doing here. He's got the earring Which I don't have which I don't have I didn't have the puka necklace on like it was So I so I want to be like tanner. How do I How do I start to update my style in a way that looks Like me that I can be comfortable in and then that was the other thing right when I was wearing You know, I've got a lot of really nice button-up shirts That are uncomfortable because they're like starched nice suit shirts. I sweat in them. They don't breathe They might look okay. I'm just like not so, you know, I then you started to go through like, okay Here are some of the things that I think will fit you well And I'm you know, I'm a big guy that's shaped like a refrigerator box Which is which is difficult, right? So I've got big shoulders big chest big waist Big hips like I think there's some self honest There's some self honesty that has to occur here as well, right? Yep and say like here's where I'm at also very tiny ankles And so trying to figure out, okay, well, what's gonna look okay there? When's it okay to tuck in shirts? What's you know and so even to switch to something as simple as say that That what what I would call butcher paper Button-up shirts like that felt like an unbreathable like especially my back was butcher paper to like an oxford type shirt Didn't change the the style that much and still look the part But all of a sudden I was like I could wear this all day like I don't have to wear this to church on sunday mornings and then change out of it The second I get home which used to be what I would do I get home home I got to take all this clothes off and put on the shorts and the t-shirt and now I don't have to do that anymore So starting to make those changes have been a a massive change here taking me from things like Um, very basic like under armor style t-shirts to Henley's Which are just as as comfortable if not more comfortable often more breathable Very comfortable still looks the par and and still looks like me where my my wife's a little more intentional Yeah, looks looks a little more intentional, right? Yep Those things have been really really nice same thing like tennis shoes kind of upgrading things like that Like you know that I'm not going to mostly wear Allen Edmund shoes Even though those things are badass and they're awesome and they work for lots of people And for me like there are going to be some formal times when I might wear something like that Yeah, but most of the time I need to wear Good-looking tennis shoes, which is not the same thing. I didn't really understand As like Reebok nanos or like your basic running shoes like you have running shoes Like you probably go out and throw on the asics and go run around That you know you run around your neighborhood But like you're not wearing you're not wearing stan smiths or you're not wearing those like basic You know all all white or all black or whatever with a chunky heel when you run You wear running shoes when you run, but I was wearing running shoes All the time, right Yep, and it is it's such a good distinction because you're right You would wear your lifting shoes are different than your running shoes Which are going to be different than what you box in or something else And so we can understand the physical context of I need different shoes for different things But then a lot of us get kind of tripped up on the idea that we can we can mess with that aesthetic context too Because I do I have plenty of pairs of sneakers that I've never done any sort of real exercise in But the aesthetic variable of bringing that that casualness down to where I want it to be Is much better than a pair of loafers or a pair of dress shoes or a pair of chakas or anything else like that Yeah, that's great. So I think my favorite conversation we've had so far in the lesson. So you've got this Your system set up great and I'm I'm not coming on here to sell a bunch of memberships For tanner, although he's an he's been incredible. I'll tell you this I would have never seen myself hiring as a style coach And it's been so much better than I would have expected like I was I was a little anxious about it And you've got you it's a great combination of kind of an online learning environment classes And then one-on-one zoom calls calls and then, you know, we take pictures and you can and they kind of Break down like what what we're wearing for the day and things like that And so one of my favorite discussions we've had so far is the discussion about the The relationship between as you start to figure out your actual style between things like rugged looks Rake-ish looks which I had never even I had seen you type that term before But I didn't know what exactly it was and What's the third one the classic? What do you call refined all they're all ours? So refined rugged rake-ish And so you actually have your clients take a test and they answer a bunch of questions It's almost like a personality test Like if you've ever taken like a Myers-Briggs or an enneagram type thing you take it and it doesn't take very long I don't know it's 20 25 questions something like that. It's not not very long And then it kind of breaks down those things for you like here's how you lean and when I took that for me it was I think because of my age and I I don't necessarily want to use the word status But just because like I'm older and I own a company at this point and that then that refined was kind of the driving force With kind of a rugged undertone Which I think comes from the fact that I live in the Midwest. I own some rural land I'm I'm sort of attracted to that look when your whole business is built around strength. It's all physical. That's right It's a little it's right. It's a little more rugged and and that How would you describe what the rake-ish look is for our audiences? It's rebellious and the whole term even comes from I'll nerd out on this with you for a second So it came from pirates because they didn't upkeep their ships properly And so the mast would rake and so that was one of the way that the Colonial sailors would be able to identify if it was a pirate ship or not because that that mass was raking and it was rake-ish And so it's this whole symbol of rebellion being an outsider being an iconoclast that kind of stuff I would equate it to and you I hope hopefully you would say this is generally fair Of what my traditional thought is of a hipster Because because their very look or the thing they do is sort of counterculture, right? Like we're not going to do the thing that's normal We're going to do the thing that's not normal. So they're the first that hipsters are the first ones to wear the skinny jeans They're the first ones to wear like the the big cat glasses again They're the first ones to wear the big hats. They've got big beards They've got like there's there's and some of those things turn into like The funny thing about the hipsters, right? Is that is that they influence culture enough that it starts to turn Back in back into mainstream and what may even be looked at in other some of those other like refined and rugged categories It's kind of so it's that um, so so for example That original idea of you know, it's 10 years ago of the lumber sexual, right? Which would have probably been 10 years ago rake-ish Is now because it's become so popular has become back into the rugged side, right? Yep, because nobody was dressing that way right or whatever it was and the hipsters did so when I think of that So for me, I would look at that I would like you just and you you showed me a tons of pictures of Of people that were dressed that way and I would like that that that actually looks awesome on them I would never wear that. Yep. And so it wasn't really about judging like the style itself as being wrong It was that in this almost actually honestly in the same way that I would look at the way The way the james bond characters dress and I'd be like that guy looks awesome in that Um, it'd be hard for me to pull that off, you know, and so um, and that was kind of the way I looked at that That kind of rake-ish style Let me let me dive a little deeper on that real quick Just because a lot of guys even hear the hipster stuff and there's some there's this kind of negative connotation with it But you can even look at like my my original foray and even caring about style started off with the rake-ish because I was I went to a private school like a private christian school Where it was the gray slacks and the navy blazer and the reptile and everything and I was really involved in punk rock and bmx I wanted green liberty spikes and battle jackets and everything else and there was that or you can even Again the historical examples like we talked about in the book You can look at the romans versus the goths and the visigoths and the vandals and that these roman kids were starting to dress Like the goths and the visigoths because it was a rejection of what their society was and how it was becoming And so that rake has existed forever and it's just basically are you holding up a middle finger? To whatever the mainstream expectations of your appearance are that's so interesting Yeah, I don't it's I don't know that I've ever said this on the podcast So I have a minor in in arab-israeli conflict I didn't know that you know interesting my bachelor's double major is is history and religious studies And then I did a minor in arab-israeli conflict and the interesting thing is is in in israel slash palestine That the worst thing you could possibly do to rebel by the way, I understand this I'm painting a big middle of the bell curve. So a lot of you out there or not and I'm talking about all western very generalized Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure there are a ton of of ton of Arabs and muslims and jews that all listen to this but there The worst thing you can do if you're a jewish kid is data palestinian kid and vice versa And and I and so we read these stories and that's exactly what they do. So they have this kind of base Style that you could You know, I mean look They all kind of come from the same Like if you follow the if you follow the lineage long enough like they come from the they're all come from abraham That's the deal right and so um, so it's hard to just pick them out by look You pick them out by style and culture and what the kids are doing the teenagers They date each other and then they start to dress alike and it's this weird combo of sort of Jewish clothing and palestinian clothing within the same and of course the parents Hate it because it's all to piss off the parents. That's exactly right It's that it's out of rebellion and so it was really interesting to see how they would how they would play that combo I love that and you and I who don't understand that culture at all or at least I because you do I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in those little nuanced details I have no idea what the difference between jewish or palestinian aesthetics are But because they're so tight within those two tribes They know and that's the same thing you would probably be able to put Again a crossfitter a powerlifter and a bodybuilder in front of them. Yeah, I don't know. They're all just muscly dudes I don't know but for us we can look at that guy. I know exactly what exactly they are. Yeah, that's it That's exactly right. Yeah, so it was really interesting to me and and actually sort of uh I think sort of a stress reliever to identify that okay, like here here's a style that we think works for you And so then we could actually start pressing into that style or how does that style work within Again work within our tribe work within the people that we're in culture with and and in community with on a daily basis and again I don't want to get away like I want to be really clear about the fact that I was I was kind of fearful about Here's what I didn't want to do I didn't want to shock anybody on any given day like and and maybe that's part of the reason that I That I skewed away from the rakish the rakish is very because it's it's so such a this is like the rebellious look I didn't want to be rebellious. I kind of wanted I I wanted that look like when Like when my wife gets her hair redone at a really nice place and somebody's like and you know Then you see her you're like man, you look really nice, but you can't quite put your finger on it That's what I wanted, right? I wanted the thing like man. He's he looks like he's got a shit together That's what I wanted and I think it's worked. It's worked really well. And so, um, Where do we go from here? Like what's the what are those next several steps? to figure out really what works and what doesn't and Like what are some of these and then how does that carry over to life lessons as well? Like what are you seeing one of the things we talk about so much in the podcast is His ideas of voluntary hardship and helping helping people be Build confidence rather than I think that's a huge part of it, right is this When you're able to squat every day or you know every third days whatever three days a week and and you get stronger And you're refined by the fire of strength training. It builds confidence. It doesn't strip confidence. Totally How does this do the same thing for us? I love that you asked that question because it ties into a lot of what guys Focus on because more often than not you hear this and you've expressed this yourself Is I just want to be comfortable, right? We hear that all the time That's a very common relationship that men have with clothing and what's funny is When we say that what we're saying or at least what we're explicitly saying is I want to physically be comfortable because my basketball shorts and my oversized ironic t-shirt or the one that you know My company gave out as part of bonus night last year or whatever That's what I'm that's what I'm comfortable and that's what feels good But really what we're subconsciously communicating is I want the comfort of low expectations Right. I want to be comfortable having people just see me the way that I am. They don't expect anything more of me I'm not outside. I'm not trying too hard and failing because the the hard thing about style Think about if every time somebody watched you lift You were doing it out of meat and they saw every single failure. They saw every single success They saw every single time you did it that would turn a lot of people off to lifting Right, but you can do it in some and that's why a lot of people have a hard time going into a gym Even just from the get go there. I don't want to embarrass myself I don't look like a war on when all these other people know what they're doing But you get to the point where you can do it at least somewhat privately You realize that nobody else at the gym is paying attention to you or you're working out from home And you can do it privately. You don't have the luxury of doing that with your clothes That's right. You have to practice and fail and succeed and everything else publicly And so a lot of guys get really turned off by that But when you learn how to do it right and you learn how to create a sense of style That's not only congruent with who you are, but it's also congruent with the best version of who you are Then that's where confidence really starts to come in because most people when they think about appearance Most men when they think about style they think about How other people perceive them and that matters for sure and that's why we talk about tribe and all this other stuff But what's way more important and you've expressed this to me multiple times as we've gone through this process Is what it does for your own perception of yourself How much it boosts your confidence when you catch a reflection in the mirror or in that building downtown And you see the best looking version of yourself looking back at you And then you subconsciously realize okay if i'm capable of that in this arena Then how much more am i capable capable of that in other arenas? Yep Right or we can even look at it as another way that it has a huge effect on confidence is the placebo effect where It is a it's a self-induced placebo again. We can we can tie this into strength and stuff A lot of guys and i'm sure for you a lot of you guys for listening This is very much the case when you put on the right gym clothes You perform better in the gym because you feel like you have now entered into the arena your mindset changes You're in the mode you're in the zone same thing if you're going into a competition And you put on the uniform you put on the singlet you put on whatever it is We see this in sports all the time our mindsets change When we can trigger that change by putting on certain articles of clothing And what's cool is that's not just limited within that one particular arena We can do that when we're going out on a date when we're going out to work When we have to do some big major tasks or whatever zoom calls exactly It's been amazing over the last couple months things like doing a zoom call Especially like if i'm doing a zoom call with you know, somebody who is a big business acquaintance companion if i'm doing a An inner if i'm interviewing a new for a new position at the At barba logic if i'm just if i'm talking to my leadership team like it changes And so you start to say like okay I want to give the appearance even on a zoom call even in the midst of Covid and everybody's in quarantine I want to present the look I like present and by the way that doesn't also just fit It's kind of funny you think about like both if you look at the backgrounds for both of us right now like the backdrop So you've got this like kind of great Three portrait on canvas picture of a buffalo. Is it tied into like a mountain line? It's also the rocky mountain line the rocky mountain So like so like the body of the buffalo or kind of the rocky mountains and then and then on the far right side You've got this you can see his head and you've got these great kind of chunky darkwood shelves with books on it Some of your favorite books behind you same thing You know, I've got this like nice office behind me like the setup you can kind of see like it looks the part I'm amazed at how often people do zoom calls And you know, there's there's dirty laundry behind them everywhere or there's and you're like, hey, don't you And so I think most of our listeners would think to themselves like well that that makes sense I pick up the dirty laundry for the zoom call and then yet They'll do an important call with important people And they'll still put on the cargo shorts And the you know and the t-shirt and the ball cap and look like They're a frat boy from 2001 and it's like that's not That's not the that's not totally counterproductive That's because you're trying to give an appearance of a perception of I want them to think that I'm this and not because you're trying to play the hypocrite Because you are that or because you're desperately trying to be that not because I want to try to be somebody I'm not but because that is who I actually am as a matter of fact when you dress like the frat boy I'll use me when you're the 41 year old CEO of a company You're dressing as someone that you're not right and so to change into the person so you know to come back to that comfort piece There are times when I have you know, I've spent I've spent some money on Tailors and and alterations for clothes before I met you and I can pull off a look that looks really nice But is incredibly uncomfortable to me. I'm sucking in my gut the whole time I like if I hit it just right that like I look good But it's it's it doesn't feel right and one of the things that's been nice Working with you is that now I've I've found some some outfits some style For me that is incredibly comfortable feels like me Looks way better I'm not like How do I get home from the dinner so I can take all these clothes off and change into like Lulu pants again. Yes, you know, I mean it's and so that's been the that's been one of the biggest changes for me Is being able to go and maybe it's made a big it's been kind of perfect timing for me as well That the whole world has been closed and now Missouri has started to open up just a little bit I've been able to go on dates with my wife for the first time and Re-emerge out of the cocoon that's exactly right and so to to go somewhere and have a nice dinner But then also feel great about both the way I look and the way I actually feel It is actually comfortable and it's it's been amazing that some of the stuff that That you've been able to find for me feels like I'm wearing Those lulu sweatpants and the long sleeve t-shirt. It's not They look better. They're just as comfortable. Exactly. It's been really nice Style and comfort are not mutually exclusive and I always thought they were yeah, yep, exactly Yeah, I always thought I always thought they were tie that into this whole idea of context and these little things where Because you live in the midwest You live in an air conditioned home You travel in an air conditioned vehicle to go to an air conditioned office or eat in an air conditioned restaurant And if it's not air conditioned then it's heated like we live in a climate controlled world That's right Whereas if you were in the lower east side in new york and you had to walk 10 blocks to be able to get to the subway then all of a sudden cashmere starts to make a lot more sense Or if you're out doing ski trips and it's 40 below then that cashmere makes a lot more sense That context again is what makes all this work. Yeah, that's that's exactly right And actually some of the I love some of the rugged stuff I have and i'm excited to wear it in the winter time and we go out You know my family's got a place out in colorado and we go out there like i'm like this will work out there Like I can't wear it here It's right. It's never cold enough here to actually pull that thing off my cabin clothes That's that's exactly right. So it's it's been a blast. Okay, so Let's talk a little bit about for just almost like rapid fire here Uh lifters are notorious I want to i'm going to tell you up an out an article of clothing that I see lifters wear all the time Uh in our culture and I want you to give me, uh a nice Change your pace like uh, uh, uh, what's the word i'm looking for a replacement for that Is that the right word that that is that is just a step up without being like it's not going to freak anybody out Right, so let's start with the one that we hear the most about cargo shorts khaki abacrame and fitch 1998 Hang below the knees giant pockets on the sides Cargo shorts you got a lot of guys that are our lifter guys who have like that's that's when they bought them By the way, they bought them when they were in college in 1999 and they're like, but they're so practical My I can my edc is perfect I can I can you know, I can carry a knife in there and I can carry a gun and my wallet my giant george castanza wallet That's four inches thick What is What would be the first thing how would you replace something like that? Okay, so I would still opt for cotton shorts That's basically like a chino short But you just change the little things a few little things about the fit You make them rather than being below the knee which is going to make your torso look way too long And it's going to make you look like a gorilla and all disproportionate You have them be two or three inches above the knee Especially because if you're doing all your squats, then you should have that great teardrop there in your quad show that off You've earned it show that off, right and then depending on how big your thighs are you want it to be You don't want it to be skinny You don't want it to be so snug that it limits your range of motion or anything else like that But you also don't want it to be so baggy that you look like you have these little toothpicks of cabs So you're sticking out of that you like parachute out of a plane in them Exactly if you could parachute out of a plane and not die, then those shorts are too big That's a problem right and so keep them trim without going skinny You stick with neutral colors like navy or khaki or gray or something else like that and realistically You should be slimming down the wallet You can carry inside the waistband or appendix or something else like that But honestly, even if you had to go all the way to edc, they still make really good looking slim A higher cut cargo shorts that can still look really good as opposed to just looking like I peaked in 1999 I've never improved since then and I'm desperately holding on to this style from back when I was cool Yeah, that's great. I um, I just found one of the things that that's just we're in the process of taking some time I've seen a lot of a lot of cool stuff that I've ordered over the last couple weeks You get them in 50% of it fits awesome 50% of you're like, ah, it doesn't fit quite as right as I need to And then once I find the one that I really like then I just buy every color in that one, right? That's what I do. So that's right. So uh, so first off I have no sponsorships with any of these people. Um, I found some great bonobos khaki chino shorts I went with the seven inch. Here's the deal. I converted to shorter shorts a while ago lulu I started, you know, everybody most of these guys that I see are wearing 11 to 13 inch inseam I would suggest going to a nine inch first so it doesn't freak you out too bad Nine's great, right? And then eventually you'll throw on those sevens and you'll be like, bro Seven inch inseam is where it's at. Exactly. I love those shorts. They're super comfortable There's comfortable as any short I've ever worn and actually price isn't bad either I can inside the waistband carry if that's what I'm doing If you are really a tactical person really into that 511 makes a lot of good stuff too They've got like their urban wear stuff is the same sort of thing, right? So it's not they're like you listen you don't want to look like a DEA agent So and they do have stuff that's made for that but like that's not what we're looking for, right? So there are some companies out there like 511 that make some some really decent like khaki looking shorts or pants that look really like Just they look like a nice pair of chinos But they've got very like way more smaller profile pockets But they can still carry some of the stuff that you exactly another good company for that is cool That's who I like camping cargo shorts and everything. That's the only time that I wear But same thing nice slim profile really easy good stuff from those guys, too How about uh tennis shoes? I know almost all of our guys So first off I always joke about the neat dad shoes So if you're wearing a pair of white and blue new balance with the one and a half inch thick Souls on them like that's made for barbecue on Saturdays You gotta throw them in the trash unless you're doing it just as a joke and then it's awesome Uh what and the the nike makes one like those two but for people who are wearing for our listeners Who are wearing like the standard sort of they're wearing nike metcons. They're wearing rebok nanos They're wearing they're wearing more kind of cross training tennis shoes. Yes But you've just converted from the big baggy khaki cargo shorts to the regular comfortable khaki chino Above the knee shorts What's what's what are some good conversions for tennis shoes out of that? I'm look like i'm gonna go on a run to like hey I could actually go eat dinner with my family in these cool Okay, so i'm gonna give you some principles to be able to judge by and then i'll give you some brand recommendations And specific styles. Okay, so the way to do this is you want to go old school You want to get into something that looks like it's been around forever and so The older it is that means the more longevity it has which means the more it's going to look like It's classic instead of just like dad outdated. I I've held on to things from the 90s So that's the first principle Second principle is you want to stick with natural materials. So that's going to be canvas Leather suede stuff like that. Yep. Okay, and then the third principle You can play with this one a little bit depending on how rugged or rakish or anything you are but stick with simple colors White is really good on most guys, but even blacks or browns But you don't need all of these like crazy camo patterns or anything else like that You know, you're not going to get too wild with any of that. Yeah, that's great So as far as some some actual pairs to check out Um, the adidas stan smiths are pretty much impossible to fail at there Which I now have four pairs of right Yeah, because because they're cheap and they look great and they come in they cut me off. I've got the white I've got the white on blue. I've got the black on black But I'm like, all right. I got and they're super comfortable So easy to get on super comfortable like you don't feel Any any more restricted in these or any of the other brands that'll recommend compared to what you are in your Metcons or your nanos or anything I don't know. So they're a great one. Um Converse your chuck taylors your kind of standards there whether that's whole top high top or low top is going to be really good to go Uh new balance has a model called the 247 Which is a really good kind of a classic wedge shape As opposed to a lot of their other stuff that can look a little bit too dad-ish And then old school nikes like the internationalists or the jordan one or the Pegasus 8380 those kind of more classical are all they all fit that bill really really well Yeah Those stan smiths. I like they're those are like actual tennis they are Dan was a tennis from like the 70s right or something like that. So it's so it's crazy the way they care about All right, how about the logo t-shirt So you got that t-shirt and it says Under armor across the front or or maybe just says barbell logic You're crying like maybe it's a maybe it's a company you really love Which is probably completely appropriate to go to the gym and like lift in But what what's a good replacement for that for again? Like just you know, not having a casual dinner Maybe it's a barbecue at home. Like what's the what's the direction to go there? Okay, so two options here The first one is still just do a t-shirt But do it so that it doesn't have any logos in its plane and make sure that it fits right So the keys to pay attention to here are the length of the sleeves because you want them a lot of guys Especially bigger guys because you have to get into this extra large drapey stuff because you're just buying crappy brands to do it But you find brands that work well and you get into sleeves that come down in the middle of your bicep And then they hold onto the bicep relatively well as opposed to being really big and drapey because what sucks Is when you put in all this effort to get your biceps up to 19 or 23 inches or whatever it may be And then they look scrawny because your t-shirt's still too big Yeah, because you got a giant sleeve or a sleeve that goes all the way down to your elbow and is drapey on the elbow Because it's a lot smaller in diameter Than the bicep and tricep. Exactly. And so it just minimizes all that work that you've put in at least as far as the aesthetics of it Another thing to pay attention to is you want the shoulder seam Which is basically where the sleeves attach to not drip down to where it's hanging halfway off your deltoid Because that in and of itself looks sloppy, but that's also going to contribute to Making the sleeves look longer than what they actually are So have it sit right at the top of the deltoid and if you can find stuff based on your build that works well Then it hugs the chest and the shoulders really well and it shows off good size there I make sure traps look like they're big But then it's a little bit looser down through the waist and the seat If you are shredded then this is good because then it doesn't look saran wrapped and you don't look one dimensional like Hey, everybody, you can tell I've got abs, right? You could see my abs. You know, I've got abs You can see my right or if you do have a little bit of waist to hide Then it's easy to hide that and so tight through the chest and the shoulders Some drape through the waist and the seat and you're good to go Yep Okay, so that's the first one that's a way to do t-shirts the second second option is to basically do the same principles of fits But you do what's called a henley and we've already talked about that and it's basically a t-shirt But it also has buttons on the front. It's called a placket where it would button up so think of it as like A t-shirt material But that buttoning part the placket is like a polo shirt But then it's also colorless like a polo or like a t-shirt is as well And basically if you think of like old timey 19th century underwear or long johns or stuff like that It's that kind of thing But it just adds so much Intentionality so much style and it isn't going to wear any less comfortably than a good t-shirt will yeah And in the summertime it's great to wear by itself But in the wintertime it's also great to as a sort of a base layer Yeah, so We've moved a lot to that. Okay great piece there Anything about like what about for our middle-aged guy who is a lifter Who's listening to this podcast who's going to dress like a lifter What what are the other little places like? hats sunglasses watches that they can get like or whatever those are like Should we do necklaces? Should we do bracelets? And I know a lot of that depends on like the style that's your you know How much are you refined versus how much are you rake-ish versus whatever those things are? But are there some kind of go-tos that you'll you'll look at as well? Yes, okay First of all when you are wearing shorts wear no show socks They look ridiculously dainty and effeminate if you don't have your shoes on because they look like these little ballerina slippers But nobody sees that unless it's you or your wife or whatever when you're actually putting stuff on But over the calf socks or like your regular athletic socks or ankle socks They just look dopey daddy And so be willing to show off your ankles all the way when you're wearing your sneakers with your shorts For sunglasses Get rid of the oakleys and the wrap rounds and everything else like that because they are appropriate when you're On the baseball diamond or you're riding the road bike or whatever else it may be But you're basically you're going to want to stick with classic Aviators, you know think top gun and all that kind of stuff those styles have been around forever or Your wayfarers which again have been around forever. That's the kind of stuff that the basic great man Yeah, your basic gray bands really really simple there for hats This is where depending on quite a few different things, but okay a lot of guys make the mistake of I want to dress more stylishly So i'm going to adopt the news boy hat or the the trilby or the fedora or anything and most of those They just look super dorky. And so you're fine wearing baseball caps If you want to lean a little bit more old school and kind of up that refinement Then stick with something that's even like a classic wool or a felt like literally what the baseball players wore back in the The tens in the 20s of the 20th century Or you can even stick with just regular just keep the logos minimal and everything else like that Like you're i've seen your black black barbell logic ones and they're great and that that's totally appropriate and works Totally fine. Yeah. Yeah, i've noticed that any anything like shoes T-shirts hats that have like an in-your-face logo So to to not step on anybody's toes today It reminds me of like the late 90s tommy hill figure shirts like you had the gray shirt with a giant tommy hill figure logo Like hey, listen, we're all grown-ups at this point. We don't need to we don't need to advertise The brand we're wearing we don't buy clothes for branding anyway We buy clothes because they're high quality and comfortable and they fit our they fit our style Not because i'm trying to show off like oh I've got red bottom christian lobooton so you're like listen here's my gucci belt That's right. It doesn't matter like listen So that's one of the things for me is just to be able to find the thing so that it doesn't it's not about the The brand or the logo it's about the fit and the style and it's it's portraying what I want to portray um Last important question there on the on the trade-off and I almost forgot this one is the button-up So guys that have the class this this like I talked about this kind of classic Everyone has needs where they have they need to wear button-up shirts Um and for me I had all of these nice and relatively expensive shirts that like didn't breathe Overstarched felt like butcher paper. What are some good? What are some good replacements for those? So the best replacement is the oxford cloth button down and you can really like there Men's wear world is all obsessed with these there's even the acronym of ocbd like you can go deep down this rabbit hole But the real benefit to these are one they're more casual because the way that the the cotton is woven It's a more open weave and that adds texture and the more texture there is to your shirt the more casual it appears So first off I had to ask you this question the other day because I wasn't entirely sure I was like, okay. I thought an oxford just meant button down colors And you were like it's actually the the weave the weave of the cotton. Yep, absolutely And it usually does have button down colors typically right because it's a more casual shirt because of all that texture And the open weave and everything else like that, but I've got oxford shorts It's just the material the way that that cotton is woven. Okay, got it Well, the thing I tend to like about that oxford too is it it one It's very versatile as far as I can tuck it in With a pair of chinos I can tuck it in with jeans or I can untuck it with jeans and it works just fine Right. Yep. I can roll the sleeves. I can not roll the sleeves. It layers really well when it's cold It works with a henley underneath it if it's cold and then and then as a main layer Then you can even do a top layer of a vest or a field jacket or something over all of those things tend to work really well And so it's a super versatile Super comfortable shirt the first time I put it on an actual no shit oxford. I was like Oh my god, this is like it looks Just like the other shirt. I you know, it doesn't look quite as formal But it looks the part and I was like I could I could wear this I could go camping it I'm not going to go camping in this but I could go camping in it and be comfortable. It's that much more comfortable It's that big of a deal and that's where the texture and the weave and everything else That's why it matters so much and you're right as far as the versatility because you can You can do it with a pair of shorts and some sneakers and roll up the sleeves Or you can do it all the way up to a more casual suit like a linen or a tweed suit or something else like that More often than not when I'm in jeans in a sport coat I've got an ocbd on like it is the the range as far as formality or environments or anything else like that It's huge now the other thing to pay attention to with this is a lot of you guys may be tempted to think Okay, but I don't want to look like everybody else I want to stand out and I'm going to do some cool patterns with my shirts and patterns Yes, they're doable But for the most part when you get your fit dialed in when you're wearing more interesting textures when your stuff All looks the way that it's supposed to You don't have to cheat and wear patterns and it actually makes your style better And like we were talking about with branding and logos it gets people to pay more attention to you Then they pay attention to the clothes and it comes back to even when we were talking about 20 minutes or so ago as far as He looks better But I can't tell why he looks better because he's in just a pair of dark jeans and a baby blue shirt And some good shoes But why does it look so much better than like what michael scott wears or some other kind of great example of really really bad style And I saw these little details is fit material and all this other stuff We don't need to worry about pattern or color very much Yeah, let's um, let's let's talk really quick about fit because One of the easiest things you can do for me when the first things you called out that I didn't even realize And then once I looked at it now It makes me ill Is all of my jeans and all of my pants were way too long Yep way too much break way too much extra fabric at the bottom and it just looks sloppy And that that this may be one of the most perfect examples of I don't know why he looks better Why he looks well put together, but like a correct length jean Or pant Looks so much better, especially on a middle-aged guy than a than a too long pant Right I I remember back in the day like in the early 2000s and late 90s Like it was cool to get like the fraying on the back of your jeans like for that very reason, you know And I think often we get stuck into the The culture and the style not just fashion you think about music or whatever Like the thing that was popular when you were 18 to 22 Because you were into that kind of stuff at the time and and that you know now i'm not 22 i'm 42 Right i'm like hey, I don't need to wear jeans. I'm not a 34 inch inseam jean I thought I thought I was I'm a 32 that still needs to be hemmed Like that's the and so what I did to 31. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly what I did was I I literally I went to And I if you if you guys haven't done it a a good tailor or a good alterations place is incredibly cheap To take a lot of the clothes that you have so I've I've had I've had all of my button-up shirts. I've had them Correctly fitted right like seam on the shoulder in the right spot sleeve length brought in again sleeves often too long You know, they'd be tight and look pretty good Tighten a good way up on the bicep and then just like massive on the forearm and extra extra cloth If I you know, so many of us are big guys with big shoulders and big arms And then you have to buy that shirt and it's like a moo moo in the waist So they have to bring in the waist a few inches, but like To get a shirt tailored it's like $15 And to get jeans hemmed is like $10 or $15 And you don't even have to go to a good tailor to get your jeans hemmed Yeah, anybody they're open they can do that. That's right. That's that's the easiest Some of the easiest stuff you can do So so that's a that's another big deal is find a good tailor slash alterations place in your town And develop a good relationship with them so that they know what you like and they can keep and they've done Man, it can take they can take clothes They can actually take some of your clothes that are probably cheaper clothes cheaper branded clothes That just don't have a great fit and they can make them fit great And you can really renew your wardrobe for even just 100 bucks 150 bucks And you can have work done on 10 or 15 different articles of clothing that within a week It's almost like you've completely re-updated your style. Yep. And the best part about it is Nobody's going to look at you like you are any different because you're wearing the same clothes And those tweaks you're so small. So you're not going to feel like you're in some weird costume You're not going to have people from your family or from work or wherever else being like, oh, wow, you've changed It's just going to look better and nobody's going to be able to identify why that's right. That's great. Awesome. So, uh, I want to I want to Talk about uh, how they can find you on the way out. Here's here's the way I'm going to pitch this You can go to amazon and get the appearance of power, which is what I would I look at your book as a it's a mindset book It it changes the mindset of why it's okay to care about Style, let's be honest the the our our niche in the strength community is very they think Maybe unfairly they think masculinity means I don't care about style And then you go and look at the warriors of history past, right? You look at the way the shogun Dressed you look at the way the american indian stress You look at the way that like the cowboys the pirates that you know You talk about this like kind of the warrior sense the way your class that cared the most about their aesthetic That's right. They always cared. They always cared and then to burn the right to dress like them That's right. They're the biggest badasses and so a great place to star is to pick up tanner's book He didn't ask me to say that at all It's a great book and it will change your mindset on the on the kind of overarching kind of philosophy of this first And then if they want to get some practical help How do they reach out and find you and I by the way also know that you you take a similar approach that Then what we do to what we do? By putting out a ton of great high value content for free So so where can they go to start to see some of your content if they're like hey I just want to dip my toe in right now. I'm not sure that I want ready to pull the trigger Where's the best place to find your stuff? So go to masculine dash style com There are a ton of articles and everything that's there to link to a bunch of youtube videos that i've done And then really to kind of get you guys started and get you in on the path on everything I have a limited version of what that archetype quiz as far as the rugged refined and rakish that You know, I do this advanced version with my clients But I do a limited version with you guys where you can take those same questions And then it'll tell you which of those three archetypes is your primary It'll tell you if your rugged refined or rakish that gets you on my mailing list And then I send you a bunch of really good deep dives as far as okay, you're rugged now. What what do you start to do with that? How do we start to make that work? Yeah, that's and so get in on that That's going to give you opportunities because I've got a bunch of different ways I do one-on-one coaching, which is obviously what you and I are doing. That's where I'm the most effective I do group versions of my coaching I have some pretty easy subscriptions that if you just want to learn the basics of like, you know How do I have the staples in my wardrobe? I've got all that and so all of that is available And you can kind of choose your own adventure as far as what's going to be the most beneficial for you By starting out at the site at masculine-style.com I love it because it really does match our philosophy for business where it's like, hey You're going to put out a ton of great content for free And and a lot of those guys that get that content right now Maybe they're 26 years old and they don't have the finances to hire the coach But as they follow the thing eventually they're going to be able to have the finances to pull the trigger But then I also like the fact that you surround yourself with a great community of people who Support each other who are all part of trying to do this thing and we're all we're all different archetypes We have different places that we sort of land and and but you've got a great community aspect there as well And then what I love is listen. It is top Notch service It is not like your coaching is not the primary point of your coaching is not the automated drip classes What those do is provide the background to the one-on-one coaching So very similar to when you think about coaching what most people consider online coaching the fitness world What most people are selling is a cheap template and what we're trying to do at barba logic is very in-depth Personalized individualized training for our clients. That's what tanner does for style So you don't have to worry about him trying this was one of my concerns when I you know I didn't know how you were going to address this like is he going to try to make me look like all the other All the other guys that I think are stylish and the answer was no Like you really looked at like who I was and what I did and where my niche was and where my community was and You helped me make it fit and then it's been amazing to put on some of those outfits and make moving some of those directions And feel like way more confident way more comfortable feel like myself Nobody's making fun of me As confident as I can come across anyway. I still have this sort of like out of my comfort zone But to do these things that my wife like she thinks they look great my 15 year old daughter is like You look great dad like that that looks really good on you And then I and then I hear that from them and then I can go to the restaurant or I can go out and do that And I I already feel so much better about who I am So thank you for the coaching for me personally and thanks for what you're doing out there for For the community in this this stuff actually matters You know, they always say dresses if right like there's this idea of like Dress the way you want to be perceived like if you're not there yet You have an opportunity to actually still give that perception off and it's not about being hypocritical It's not about being fake And there's nothing about Tanner's coaching that feels shallow and again It's one of those things for me that Being able to find a guy who you've invested a tremendous amount of time In your marriage in your fatherhood and the way you divide up your your work life balance with your family The way you you train with your family in your garage You see your kiddos in there You see your wife training with you like you are one of us and you are one of our members of our tribe and so You've been a great a great Resource and asset for me. So thank you for the stuff you've done. Well, I can't tell you how much that means to To have you tell me I'm a part of the tribe that means a lot. So that feels great. Thank you Well, you got a beard so you're in right? I mean, that's the deal. No, it doesn't matter as much The threshold is too low He also has way better hair than I do. He's got a head. He's got a head full of hair So we got that I we didn't even talk about that because I've never had to worry about About hair with style because in fact, I don't have any But if you are if you any of you listeners are starting to lose it Just go them that route and just get rid of all of it It's so much better Especially because you can just grow it on your face and then shave it on the head. Exactly low maintenance It's low maintenance. That's for sure. So dude. Thanks for doing the show And we'll catch you guys in a couple days. Thanks for listening to the show We'd love to have a five star review iTunes is awesome. But anywhere that you get our podcast and you can get our podcast anywhere You can get it on stitcher i heart radio Overcast iTunes google play anywhere that you can get a podcast You can get us you know that because you're listening as i'm speaking right now So you already know where you listen Go visit five star review that helps us in the rankings and drives up so that we can reach more people For the refining power of voluntary hardship and we'll catch you guys in another couple days