 Cool. These are my first office hours on the 4th of July, 2022. I am going to share screen and go through relate and sort of explain a little bit about it and the wiki Stacy is here with me, but she's currently having lunch. So we'll be visible in a little bit. And so relate is a project of relate ideas documents perspectives and people I will do better explanations of it in fact on the wiki which I'll show you this right here relate.dev is basically the homepage of a simple simple simple website. For a while I was stuck on what to put on the website and what to put on the wiki and then I decided to just throw everything over onto the wiki and ignore this. I'd like to come back so one of the questions for the back of anybody who's watching this, including you Stacy is should still go on the homepage of relate as a regular website. And then the wiki is basically wiki dot relate dot dev. Thank you Pete Kaminsky very much using massive wiki builder and massive wiki here. The pages here are all pages in obsidian. And so obsidian is the editor I'm using. The read me page which is the default landing page on any github repo is this page which is this page. So, whenever I make changes to this page in obsidian and I push them to github. This website is rebuilt automatically whenever so massive wiki builder goes oh there's a change rebuilds a static site that looks like a web page and that's what we have here. And so I've created separate pages. The nav bar on the left here the navigation, I haven't really touched yet. It's a new feature in massive wiki which is really lovely so ignore right now what's what's on the nav. A second question to put in the back of everyone's head is what should be on the nav bar of the wiki and how does that work. And then these are the major categories. I'm trying to write this is this is not enough text for the wiki and I'm also wanting to shoot some videos, but I'm also trying to not be very worthy I think wiki is with a lot of words. Don't get used don't get read. And so I'm trying really hard to encapsulate things in titles and then to say okay, what is relate should be over on a page called what is relate so we can always point back to it. And then here, why it exists which will be a little bit of prose who is involved which haven't finished the relationship to neighboring organizations which I should make a link to in a second. But then under here I created a separate thought about hey, here's a page just to talk about relates goals, separated into short term midterm and long term. I think there's some text that I need to put in here explaining why the division into these different time frames and what it means. And then the notion here is that the short term goals are extremely pragmatic. Hey, how do we share notes across tools. And how do we start to understand what relate pioneers, people who have already created some, oh good Pete fix this that's very funny, because this didn't render properly earlier and he added a blank line and now it renders properly. So, these are people who have projects that are pretty advanced that solve different parts of the relate problem so I'm calling them relate pioneers just just for greens right now. And so that's the short term goals to take some of the pioneers remix them and just do some proof of concept demos that lead to a shared memory, and I have to say a whole lot more here I have to connect it probably to the big fungus and, and other sorts of things. The short term goals are really in that there's no description here I've got to go write this, but this is the project with have to figure out. And this is, and this is really the heart of relate right now. What kind of organizations and entities need to exist so that the project to create a shared memory might exist. And how do we build one big memory to hold them all, and what is the next Wikipedia above Wikipedia. This is not what relate wants to do relate wants there to be a distributed powerful collective memory, the big fungus nominally, which has lots of ways of adding an enriching information, and lots of ways to adapt for the fact that participants in building this shared memory will be using completely different tools that they prefer to use some will be an obsidian or Rome research, or whatever. Some will be in the brain or our cumul or some other visualization software, some will be doing something else and a piece of what we're trying to figure out here is what kind of protocols and standards do we need to get that work done. What what sort of agreements to the take so that people collaborating people eager to collaborate but using different tools can actually make a body of work that's rich for everybody in the middle. The way I've set this up the long term goals are meant to be. Hey, if we pull this off if we succeed insights from everywhere from books from us from conversations from threads being lost on mailing lists will become more available sharing will be commonplace and we will have beneficial in different sectors. And so here, I want to talk I'll have a page about how relate could affect education journalism science and by the way, this last bullet's really crucial, because what happens is education winds up not being that separate from journalism winds up being not that separate from science winds up being not that separate from governance. The key here is, these things can start to actually reintegrate. And that's a big piece. So this is about relate is about the relationships between domains of human activity. In fact, also, right. So, let me let me hit pause, does that all make sense. Or does any of that make sense. Yes, it does make sense. It does. Do you want to stop screen sharing. Cool. It makes a lot of sense and it's painting a broader picture which is easier for me. So what you didn't do. Are you going to get to the questions that you asked, because that's where I have some comments. Yes, you mean the key questions in the wiki or the quite or the questions I was just asking now. The questions in the way. Oh, sure. Or if we're not there. I'm sorry. No, no, that's fine. We can go any we can actually go anywhere you want because part of what I'm trying to figure out is what's missing. What's going on, etc. So here's the homepage right now for the wiki. So what I'm trying to figure out is this project here is a shortcut to the goals page I just showed here are the key questions I think you're asking about is that correct. Yes. Okay, now, these key questions mirror. The key questions in my brain in fact the way I created this page was, I went to my brain, I copied. I think it's this command. There we go. I basically copied out this list of things under this note in my brain something I want to show you how to do so that you can pull out any subset of things from the brain, because then over here see I can say copy 12 thoughts, copy as text outline with notes, whatever, whatever. Now I don't think all these features are available in the web brain version that you're using. They might only be available in the brain as an app. So we have to figure that out. Okay, but anyway, what I did was I copied all of these and I pasted them over into obsidian, then I edited them. And my goal here is to create a separate page because these are links to pages and these are not these are not yet linked, the ones below, because I just haven't gotten there. But my goal here is to have pages for each of these questions, and then to use the office hours to, for example, address these questions. And to put these questions also into our standing calls and say hey, let's go figure out how diversity plays into OGM and relate. Right. And we've been on the topic before let's go deeper into it let's figure out what that means, how to work it. Let's figure out how to commission tiles to build our mosaics. Let's figure out how to motivate companies and individuals to feed the fungus because that's two different sales jobs that need to happen for us to have a culture of building a shared memory. Right, we need to do that a lot more than than before. So all of these are some key questions. This is just me riffing on the key questions I am eager to figure out what the crowd would thinks the questions are. I'm eager to try to keep this containable. So, I'm all about subsets and and I'm trying to make this really pithy so that somebody coming in isn't overwhelmed immediately. Right. I was going to say, when I look at this the way I map it in my brain is that the short term goals and the medium term goals. They're in the pile that you're mostly working with. Yeah, because when I look at the question. When I look at the in the long run. Those are things that are that counterintuitively track back to the very beginning questions. What I mean by that is that. So you're working on like the actual tools and doing the projects, but when I hear questions like how do we bake diversity in. And I forgot what the other one was, how do we get normal citizens engage. Yep, those are like things that relate to the long term. We have to start now. Exactly. One of the things that I think might be useful is to find out what people need because I noticed one of your questions like how do we get the next step the next step up from Instagram. Yep, yep. And the whole idea of diversity, what I noticed like even in these tech spaces is that people think differently. So I'm wondering if just by reaching out to different people that produce content, or people, you know, women, let me just say the word and saying, you know, like, what would be more helpful for you. Like what's something that you would use just by bringing them into the conversation. That's sort of like planting seeds for diversity right there. Totally agree. And one of my only answers to the diversity question is to be of service to people we would like who amplify our diversity. I think I think I think inviting people in and saying please be a part of my community, because you look different from me is not really serving them very well, and doesn't really work. I think it's really hard so serving other people who could use the value that we're trying to create here is a really, really nice bridge, and I think brings people in. So I think one of the goals here and this is one of the things I should play out of the pages is, okay great so who can we invite into conversation and how do we serve them like how do how do we help other people start to build this stuff out. I'm thinking like when you say how can relate appeal to normal citizens. Even asking people like what do you wish you had, you know, like what would be your wish list, just to get an idea of how people are thinking or what they wish they had. So, how can relate. Here's the page my question is one step more complicated Instagram Twitter Pinterest. Working questions. Is that what you said. Yeah. Okay. I would make that what do people wish for in a tool. Otherwise you're going to get a lot of different answers. Exactly. And a thinking tool and a sense making tool. Social media tool tools fine. So people are already using hashtags a whole bunch which is really cool so like we can, we can build from there that's a good start. Okay, so I want to use these pages as notes and then refine this later but we can you know as we're thinking out loud. Part of the reason for office hours is to be able to sort of come into the editor and go okay good let me know this is needed for this page this is needed for this page etc etc. Okay, one of the things one of the things that's kind of fun. I learned how to build little tables in obsidian and they look nice if I go back to the wiki and go home go all pages and look at my office hours. This is what, see, it looks pretty elegant. And there's a basically an advanced table plugin that makes making tables and obsidian easier. Markdown, there's a primitive table function you just use the pipe symbol the bar, which is usually on the far right on the keyboard that between anything with tabs is basically like how you make a table, but the table plugin makes it easier to do and use. And so at the end of this call I'm going to add the link to this call when I upload it to YouTube right here. Make sense. Yes, and so this will be a repository where you can go watch any of the, any of my office hours that I record and post. Okay, so this topic was on building out the relate wiki. Yeah, so it's a tour, it's a tour of the relate wiki and the kind of the exactly the kind of conversation we're having which is like, Okay, so what belongs on what page and, and does it make sense and all that kind of stuff. And I kind of, I sort of want to hop through some of the pages that I've got going so far, like for example, I created a ground rules page, which was, and I didn't put any links here but I wanted to kind of link back to all the work we did on the generative commons conversations and say, there's a spirit here of working in the generative commons method. There's a code of conduct of some sort. And then there's other sorts of things about something like that. So I was never here I wasn't here for the general general comments. I should I thought you were okay. I hope I'm not breaking any of these codes. No, no, not at all. The generative commons agreement was different. It wasn't a code of conduct thing it was. And Michael Grossman participated a lot of these conversations because he was raising some of these issues he's like, Hey, I actually have a little startup company and I'm trying to make a you know living and have a profitable company, while, while participating in all of these efforts to build commons to share open source code etc etc. How does that work. And so the generative commons agreement was like, Hey, we love things like creative commons licensing we love there's a couple other pieces of this puzzle have been solved. There's a couple others that haven't been solved. So, if you agree to the generative commons agreement then you're agreeing to this umbrella description of how to collaborate together to build the commons while letting people make a living from the process. Okay, so that would be like some of the things like the open source community have done. Yes. Okay, so building entirely on top of that so so this should be a link. This and if I do double square brackets it makes a link to an empty page I haven't created that page yet. So should this be called the relate code of conduct yeah probably. And then this should be a link as well. So what I want to describe in the middle bullet here, the middle heading is when participating on this wiki how, like, how to do that. Like what in what spirit what I was trying to describe a moment ago about being pithy and having lots of sub pages that's what I'm thinking about for here is this a reasonable name for that page. I can always change the name later. I'm probably not the best person to ask for advice on how to set something up being that I don't use it. That is fine, I will go with it and then I can always change it later. And any other kinds of ground rules come to mind that we need. No, but, but, I mean, I think what you're looking for is a sentence that describes. I think it's sort of like you want to see I'm looking at it from a different point of view. I'm looking for something that's giving me permission and telling me how much input you want me to put on this page. How much agency do you want me to exert. Yes, which is should be on that page as well I think. So I'm creating I'm now creating those pages. So do you see what I'm doing it really quickly without explaining. So, look, now you'll see that these links are dark. And this link is still gray, or lighter, lighter dark blue. That means that this page doesn't exist yet but these pages do exist. So we look at it. To create the page I just click on it. And now I basically put in title, the one pound sign means make this a title I copy. I copy the text in the name of the page, and I put it at the top and I don't want to put the word the, and then I hit return and now this is this is started this page. Now, this page doesn't exist on the wiki yet because I haven't pushed any changes. And I can show you that some other time but that but basically that's a piece of how to and how to, a piece of how to get involved is how to help create this wiki, which I also haven't created as a page. So let's do that. And then I'll do something that will, I hope will make sense. So blah, blah, blah, and then what did I just call that page. I'll figure it out in a second so. So right now we're on help create this wiki here's ground rules I called it writing style for this project. So, so now what I'll do is I'll basically take the same words, make that a link. And now, this is a link to that other page. So help create this wiki is the technical page. So, this page how holds geeky info for how to edit massive wiki to add pages to the real eight wiki. Okay, so this is this is basically a bare bare bare bones page, and this should be a link over to massive wiki. And really, how to edit should probably all be hosted over on massive wiki which would be great and better, because then any site using massive wiki should just refer over to massive wiki on how to edit massive wiki how to, how to configure obsidian get hub all that kind of stuff should only be done once over there. Does that make sense. Yes, well the writing style. Now the writing style is particular for here. So that's why it's a page here, but, but here, I, and I'll talk with Pete about this. But here I really think that that, you know this page points to information on how to edit massive wiki, go over there to do it. And as we figure things out we will contribute to the pages that live over on Pete's massive wiki wiki. Yeah, because those are just general purpose topics about anybody trying to use massive wiki and well as he improves massive wiki then you make a change once to how to do it and everybody using massive wiki gets the benefit from that. So I like that entirely. And then help create this wiki should be under get involved that there it is okay good. I have not created the page online conversations which is where I was going to put links to the OGM call and the matter most server and stuff like that. And then I haven't created yet a separate channel for relate on the matter most server which I think I probably need to do like real soon now. And there's a bunch of other things let me go back up to the top and see what's interesting to you and what's still open question, and I'll note that it's an hour in I'm happy to keep going but I don't want to eat your fourth of July so as long as you'd like to stand you're welcome to I'm good. It's interesting. Really, I'd like to see relate projects. I was just going to go there. Okay, projects for 100. Exactly. Exactly. The answer is. So you'll notice that these pages are not created yet, this one is, and the tiles pages, let me go to the tiles first. Let me explain this better, because the relate projects will have kind of funky different names, these are kind of bigger projects that they're each of them has to be explained where tiles. I created another another table here. It'll be better it'll be more visible over on the wiki so let's go to the tiles page. Here we go so it looks prettier here. So again, I used the, the, the table maker to say hey we already have to finish tiles, mean brain and brainy McBrain face, and we might actually have one or two more I don't I don't remember what else because Pete built the buzz saw to scrape zoom chat I don't know if that qualifies there's a couple other pieces of code that are probably qualify here. And then, these other projects are proposed like okay, how do we, how do we build this out who might be in charge of it. And let me go back over here. So this is the tiles, we're going to have rendering. Oh rendering is Caledron was a tile here we go good. So, how do I. I don't know how to link to a page where I don't use exactly the same name. I have to figure that out I think it's easily possible I just don't know exactly how I think it's like this. So now I'm editing the table. Now I'm going to go here. I'm going to back it in parentheses. And in the parentheses, I want to put tile. No, I don't think this is right. I don't think that's going to work, but I'm going to try it. Yeah, that didn't work. So I need to figure out how to make a link back into the wiki where the name. So, I don't, I named the page see on the left here it says tile rendering is Caledron because I wanted each of the tile pages to show up next to each other. So I'm going to set it here. So the two tiles I've got described the cron job and the rendering are here as web pages as wiki pages but I don't want to do tile bash here, although for a moment I could. Why don't I try that. So, so if I do double square brackets, and then what did I do here. And then get rid of this guy and do square brackets. That's a page right. Good. So now that. So this is now properly showing the right page in the wiki. But I don't really want it to be named this in this table so I need to figure out how to change. I think I'm doing this the long way around. So, do not update the link. So I fucked that up. I just renamed the page instead of. Yeah, here's rendering Excalibur I just I just completely did the reverse of what I thought I was doing. That was fun. Edit undo. That's that's not going to help. Let me go back and just rename this page. Good. So that page is now named properly here's the tiles page. I don't know if this will go to it now it does okay I fixed it. So I need to find out how to make the text that's showing different from the link and not confuse myself anymore. But that's what this table is supposed to be. And then the mosaics. I need to put the mosaic in which I haven't done. And the mosaic vision. So the goals. Let me just see what is relate. So I think I want to say. I think I want to just call it relates mosaic and make a page out of that. I just created a blank page for the mosaics, which will have a little bit of text and then probably be a drawing and Excalibur because that what I want to do is take something like this. Which don't worry about it. I mean, I showed it to yesterday but screen sharing so yeah exactly. So let me stop share and put it up for a sec. A little bit better. So something like this but different. I mean I've got multiple drawings that kind of fit here. And it'll probably be several different drawings, etc, etc. But my goal is to encourage every organization to paint their mosaic. And when the M would call it a tapestry, which is great. It's just a different kind of analogy. I think that we're weaving or making tiles and arranging a bigger vision of the future we want and how it works. Right. That's what the mosaic is mosaics or our individual projects visions of the future tiles are the pieces of code that need to be built in order that any project exists. And then a good tile is a tile that serves multiple projects because it's generalized and it's like, you know, etc, etc. So a couple of things that so on the page that we were just on. Is there some point like when we talk about McBraney face or whatever where you'll be able to see more than one project that it was able to fit into and that is a lovely thing to do. And a thing I could do that complicates things a bit, and maybe takes us an interdifferent level but this table for example could have another another column that says project served. And so, brainy McBraney face could serve free Jerry's brain and OGM and relate for example. Right, right. I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. And at the same time, you know we didn't look at the bigger projects yet, but when it comes to the bigger projects yet at some point, you know it's like, there's still needs a bridge to be built. So, at some point, things have to be working towards the middle in terms of big projects, small projects, like, does that make sense. Yeah. So let's see if this looks any good. How's that. Yes. Cool. Love that. Man, it's complicated stuff, huh. But so fun. And, yeah. No, no, no, I was just gonna say it's going to get more fun. Yeah, I think so too, I think so too. Let me go back into the chart for a second and add a new proposed project. So that starts a new project actually I need to go back and turn this into a link and then get out so that I can go start like to create yes yes yes. Good. I want to go to it silly. I don't know why that's happening right now that I pinned it by mistake. I don't know. I don't even know what pinning does. I just want to go to that page. Why is obsidian doing this to me now. All right. So here's the deal. So, actually, I don't want to say like this that way. I want this to be a link to a page, which is called spider graphics cala draw. How do I do that. Yeah. Thank you. Good try though. I wonder if obsidian likes that doesn't await. I have to learn how to do this. Okay. So, so what I'm what I'm wanting to do is make a link to that drawing. So right this minute what I'm going to do is the plain old way. I'm going to just embed spider graph cala draw. I'm not even sure this is going to work. Let's see if that works. Think it works. Hot damn. Okay, that's that makes me happy. And this is called the spider graph just so that I know. Yeah, because it looks like a spider web. And what does ml stand for machine learning. I made up these, these dimensions, but you know, is this tool good for linking? Does it use natural language processing? Are you, is it quoting like when, when, when I use, when I use my Kindle reader and I highlight something, I have an app called read wise that basically lets me see those clippings later. I don't use them very much, but it's, but it's nice because I can see them later and at least, at least there's a link to the quote. And paraphrasing is what I do in my brain a lot. I actually do both in my brain, I paraphrase and I quote. So what I'm, what I should do is do this spider diagram. What I want is to, to perfect the dimensions and then map the brain to it map kumu to it map Rome to it map obsidian to it, et cetera, et cetera. And then, then each one will have a different kind of spider map. And you can overlay them to see what the general domain, you know, neighborhood looks like, but then each tool, like the brain doesn't have any natural language processing or machine learning in it at all. It's got none. So it would score zero, which, which is down here at zero. It would score zero on both of those. It's really good at linking. It's really good at tagging. It's really good at quoting and paraphrasing. And it's not very open. So there we go. Right. And I, and I hand drew this in Excalibur, which is getting fun because now. So what's interesting is this renders in obsidian, but it doesn't render yet on the website. So one of the tiles is a project to render Excalibur on the website. Okay. Can you just tell me what you mean by the term open? Open source. Basically the brain is not open source and there's no API. Oh, that's what it meant. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So over here, openness and unfortunately there's like many different kinds of openness. So it's, it's not open source. So there's a lot of open source. So this is the way that this collapses them all down to one access, but, but you can also sort of say, Hey, this is really open. This is kind of open. This is not open at all. Is there a way though? I mean. Would I be the only person that wouldn't realize that that just just pertains to code. Within a community looking at tools and software. We'd have to agree on what we mean by openness. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think one of the parts of this project actually. Is spider diagrams. I'm forgetting one right. Linking ML tagging quoting per raising an LP. No, I think I got them all. Linking. You didn't put linking there. Good. Thank you very much. And so. Good. So now I'm happy with this page. Right. I mean, this page is the starting point for that. And then the tiles. And then the page now points to spider diagrams as one potential project. Awesome. And what we were just looking at is what's on that page when we look at it. So that works great. Hey, it's Mr. Anderson back from walking his dog. Making tea. Excellent. I've got my in front of me as well. Yeah. Lunch hour hasn't approached yet here. I think we're getting a little bit closer to the point. But that's the relative man. That's true. I have no intentions of going outside and putting hot coals in a device to burn meat. So that's not happening. Go ahead. While there's a natural break, I just want to know if you what, at any that, at any point, wanting to stop the recording and restart it just to break it into segments. Really long. So let's note that it's 17 after the hour. I didn't start the recording at the hour, so that doesn't help. But I can put a marker in the recording very easily. And I think I'd rather keep the office hours as a chunk. But it's really easy to put a little directory thing in the comments. And Bill, I'm thrilled you're here. Maybe I can just walk you through where we've been just to catch you up. Yeah, I thought we didn't really have much. I sort of jumped all over you, like, let me tell you about we're late. I'm like, no, let me tell you about this thing. And I don't have any time, so I'm out of here. So enough about me, Jerry. So thank you for coming back. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's all right. So you're familiar with all this. This page is the readme page for the new Relate Wiki, which equals this page over here. Right? So I went through the Wiki. I looked, you know. Cool. And I've just made some changes and additions in conversation with Stacey and just kind of wanted to get you acquainted with what's there. And I didn't push the changes yet. Shall I try that? Hey, I think it's a good idea, no? I like it. Up. And so. I hope we're having on the go, you know. What did I add? I added there. All right. I think we're reaching committed 10 files. Ooh, it pulled one too. It pulled one. What happened? How? I don't know. Does somebody else have access to the Wiki? Pete does. Well, there you go. All right. Somebody must have made a change. So I think that's right, because Pete fixed something. I had a page. I had the page for pioneers. This page was not rendering properly. It was running. I know, I was going to fix it myself, but I was not at it all the way. And so Pete wrote me back and he said, if you put a space between things of different types, it fixes it. And then he went and did the fix, which I think is what just got pulled. I think it's two spaces, actually. If you do the height, if you do the in obsidian, when you're making a bulleted list. Yep. So put two spaces after each bullet item you're saying? No. Yeah. Oh, because these are not, these have no spaces after, but they're rendering okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know about that. I hit them. But I think. Well, what Pete also said was that two spaces equals a line break. Yeah, what looks good, one thing what looks great in obsidian doesn't always look great on the wiki. Exactly. Exactly. But this page is now fixed. So I've got relate projects, but tiles, no, where's, I think it's not on projects page. I think it's on. I got to find my way. It's on get involved, have a project. No, it's not there. God dammit. On the page you see your answer. It's your friend here. Here's the pioneers. Okay, so it's rendering nicely now. Yeah. And then all of these need to be links to the different projects, et cetera, et cetera. So I haven't gotten there quite yet. And then I've got sort of short term, I need some text in here to kind of explain why am I dividing things into short, medium and long-term and what's the difference? Conceptually speaking, the short-term goals are really practical short-term experiments that put up use cases or prototypes for what the heck this thing is. Medium term, I should put some nab inside there. The midterm goals, which I haven't written up yet, are more the question that Ev posed to me, which is kind of the heart of this project, which is what, and this is like the thing I've been sort of cracking my brain on for a while now, what entities, norms and dynamics or communities need to exist in order that we have a shared memory that would benefit humanity. And that's more than just what Wikipedia, that's not a just shared memory of facts, but it's in fact opinions, ideas, stories, this layer above. And I don't even know if I'm saying it right by describing it as a layer above Wikipedia and regular web pages and all that. And to confuse matters further, I refer to this often as the big fungus because it's this constructed scaffolding that metabolizes nutrients and feeds us all. That's the metaphor it conceit. So let me throw, I'm gonna throw out one thing here. So I think I like what you're saying about the midterm. I think when you talk about midterm goals, the way you said it, it sounds to me like, developing a proposed way of thinking or model to make sense of, I'm trying to construct them, but make sense of what's happening. So I look at it that way. So it's gonna be provisional. Anything you're learning in the short term is gonna make a difference, perhaps, maybe not. Sometimes the long term goals never change because it was broad enough. You know, sending a man to the moon works for the janitor, who's for the aeronautical engineer. So the other thing, this thing when we talked earlier, but the fact that everything's connected to everything in some way and in order to get away from that being reductive, it's like, yeah, so we don't really have to talk about it because like, that's the only concept that works. So we're done. So rather than saying like, there's just gonna be above or it might be, I look at things this way, when you have a connected, semi-connected graph, this is what I think about organizations, right? There really is all these connections like, you know, all this credit source is great diagrams. Who's gonna, who better? Want a hierarchy? Pick up one of the nodes and shake it. Yep, and then have a hierarchy. Now you have a hierarchy, exactly. Yeah, think of that. So this is maybe a better way to think about. Yeah. Pulling together, you know, and if I start here, then, you know, sitting in this little seashell, here's what it looks like to me. Wikipedia's over here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's over here. Anyway, so it's more like from taking a perspective that a lot, you know, and you do it because that serves some purpose. Totally agree. Sorry, go ahead. So I think of these as temporary hierarchies or perspectives, right? It's like, hey, here's a big web of what's up. If I look at it from this point of view, it tells a story or it forms a hierarchy or it has a particular structure and that structure might be very temporary. I would say provisional because it's not so much temporary like it's gonna go away. It's like, it's being, I look at it this way because it helps me get to this following endpoint. Okay. Right? It's these categories and the places that now I don't have to think about those. I can worry about this. But you can go back to them. Oh, you can be, right. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I look at the, much of this, I don't know what sounds terrible when I say it now. It's more like it's instrumental. Right. You construct one of these little perspectives in order to accomplish something or... When you say instrumental, can you say more? Yeah, like it serves some purpose. So, this is a bit of a digression but I think it's completely relevant here, which is I've been trying to find a better word than instrumentation for taking good ideas and making them useful. And the one example I've got is in liberating structures, there's a pattern called one, two, four, all, which says when you have a big group with a complicated topic, a really nice thing to do is give everybody time by themselves. One, pair them up to put them in fours and then bring them back to plenary. One, two, four, all. And that's just a pattern on a wiki and a book someplace in the world. My thought is, hey, a chatbot that's sitting next to you when you're zooming and you're not a great facilitator could say, hey, Jerry, you might be in a situation where one, two, four, all is useful. Would you like me to run it? And this is what I mean by instrumentation. You would say, yes, a little Zoom app that would then set up breakout rooms, give you prompts, set up a timer, do all of the handholding so that one, two, four, all was easier for you to run. And I want to do that like lather rinse, repeat on all sorts of wisdom everywhere. And I'm calling that instrumentation, it's not the right word. No, it's not a bad word. It's more like, it's like a kind of infrastructure. Kind of machinery. Yeah. Which is like, okay, because it actually- Is it, it's also sort of application. Yeah, and when I use the word instrumental that maybe I should find a better word, but it's like when I worked at Xerox, you know, I had many, I had many relationships which took me a while to realize sometimes people, you know, we had relationships that lasted a long time and sometimes people would reach out only because it's satisfied an instrumental need of their home. Right. Which I could help with. Right. And so maybe in the relate space, it would be nice to have this kind of notion available so people could talk about the fact that some relationships are purely instrumental, largely maybe. And others are much more personal. Right? Yeah. So they don't have a feel, why did you get together in Chit Chat? Because we always do that. Right. You know, and why did you do that? We like to? Is that okay? Yeah. Anything more? Yeah. You know, I didn't use, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I didn't use those same words. You weren't here at the time, but what Bill is speaking to is tied into, when I was saying that I saw this project in four steps and I saw like the beginning and the end vision in one part of the map and what you had is the short and medium term goals. In that visual map, those medium and short term goals are instrumental to the way Bill is now talking about instrumental, whereas the kind of things I'm speaking of are more relational, but they all tie in together. I think I'm following. I'm a little squishy on instrumental just because there's so many conflicting meanings in my head that it could be. Yeah, well, we should find a different word, but I know it's, I wonder from my wife too, it was an anthropologist, but you know, there are relationships that are purely, you know, we're only related because we're both engaged. Because there's a payoff for the participant. It's an instrument in the, the relationship is an instrument in the accomplishment of something else. Yeah, an accomplishment in this case of a personal goal they have. Or it could be a financial goal or it could be a business goal that a company has. You know, we're going to put all of you on the same team. You're all on a team or you don't like each other. You're not going to pay to like each other. You're going to pay the right software. So, you know, start typing. Yeah, cool. So I think that's, and it's easy to get confused because we're all humans and sometimes we can appear to be very personable and be in relationships, which I've been in relationships which I've mistaken to be, you know, well, didn't end well. Like I have one is Xerox that really didn't hang out. Well, Scott Peck has his community building pieces that says most communities, and I think this would scale down to just short, small relationship circles are in pseudo community. And the way they get to true community, usually that's, this is just as thesis that they're kind of tested by fire because they fall into chaos, they go through emptying and then they end up a true community. That's his thesis about groups and community building and I like it a lot actually. If you make it through the fire is still alive. Right, well, one of the solutions to the fire is to walk away, just leave the group, right? Another solution is, hey, Bill, you make a lot of sense. Why don't you just tell us what to do? A third solution is for everybody to say, this is the reason I went on fire and this is how it affects me, et cetera, et cetera. And then other people do the same thing and then we sort of find our way to some new way of being and that's the path, the real community. And it's very consonant with Renee Brown's notions of vulnerability. Yeah, I would get away from using the word real. Word of the night is real? Real community. Oh, I see. I would be much more practical. Yeah. Because this gets into like, well, you're from New York, you're not a real American. That's true. You're just a New Yorkan. Exactly, or whatever. So I think it would be helpful in some of these projects, we examine some of these kind of monocles we use for things and try and be more accurate. They were more descriptive. Like a functioning, you can find a word that would describe a community that cares for its members as well as gets a few things done or whatever. So I think that would be better. Cool. But it's gonna take practice because we're used to all this other shorthand and I've just started to become really aware of my own, how all these little generalizations and tropes and idioms and stuff really hold a lot of unpacked baggage. It's true. It's totally true for all of us. And we often don't know the other person's baggage and we often don't unpack it in front of anybody else because it's baggage, right? We don't know our own. Yeah, and we're often unaware of the baggage we're carrying. Yeah, anyway, but so here's something to throw you I think from my older software development things. So I'd like the idea about goals, like the short range, medium and long range. So I believe for practice to being practical, I don't know how this will work. I just, it seems silly, but I like it. It's more like we have what we're working on. We have a long-term vision for what we are trying to accomplish. Yes. And it could be individual and shared learning, whatever it is. But I would rather have here's what we're working on now. Here's a list of things we're gonna be doing later. Well, that's kind of what projects is meant to do. Although it's doing it very poorly right now, but the idea here was, hey, what's going on in this space? And then the tiles is the pragmatic part of it. So this is easier to see on the webpage. So let me go to tiles. Cause I learned, have you learned to use advanced tables? Me? Yeah. No, I used, I don't know, I used just kitchen tables. Oh yeah, gotcha. So there's an advanced table to plug in a firm city and that actually makes pretty tables like this one. Yeah, that's nice. I've seen it documented. It's pretty easy to use. So the idea here is we've already written a couple of tiles. So Mark Antoine wrote meme brain, Bentley wrote Brainy McBrainface. These are finished tiles. I'm gonna put links to their projects over here, et cetera, et cetera. And then here are some proposed projects, right? Some proposed tiles. Tiles are small pieces of the mosaic. Every organization that wants to, should create its own mosaic so that we know where it's aiming and as pithily as possible to describe it. And then if we can start talking a lot and boiling things down to tiles, then we can figure out which tiles serve multiple projects and wouldn't that be cool? So for example, when you and Pete fix something in Massive Wiki that serves everybody using Massive Wiki, you could argue that that tile should be funded because it's gonna serve, you know, six different projects that are depending on that feature showing up in Massive Wiki. Does that make sense? Like search? Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Okay. I just didn't know much more. I haven't been a very, I try to get to the simplest possible. Here's what I'm doing now and everything else is later. Right? And once every periodic time, I take a look at the later chart and decide, uh-oh, I've been sure to have been working on that earlier. Okay, I guess we're gonna have to swap some things out here. So there could be a now page on the Relate Wiki, right? It would be nice to have here's what, you know, we are spending time on now. I know that the MetaProject are making suggestions. I think they took it up about not having to list of things we should be working on. Mm-hmm. Just have here's what we are working on. And here are other things that are related that are also important to work on. How do we prevent that page from blowing up and including everything? Right, because that's where you have a garden. I mean. Yeah. Right? You got a community, you know, just let things blow up. Or you tell people, here we've got the everything box, just put it in there. If you really get motivated, maybe you can convince a bunch of us to move it on to the field. The Kanban place where we did actually work on. But I just like the idea of not making a list of what one should be doing because the obvious question then is, why are you not doing that? So if you should be doing it, then why are you not? So you'd like a page like this, right? Well, I think it would help when you're trying to like, you know, you want to join in. Here's things that we're working on right now. Yeah. Go ahead. I would keep that page not active yet. Right? Until, yeah. Until what? Until you make a choice about what out of the, you know. No, but right now we're holding office hours and we're building the Wiki and a couple. I can, I can. Well, you can, well you can pop like this from here as the, you know, the main relator. Yeah. I would count, I would count the building of the Wiki as what we're doing now. And I would leave that page inactive until the Wiki page was built. If that makes any sense. It doesn't. I see, I see. Well, it doesn't. No, I think it's like, it's, it's like good. Go ahead, Bill. It's not like building. You're always like working on a Wiki. It's sort of like establishing the Wiki. Right. Just making it, you know, here's the foundation, blah, blah, blah. We've got three rooms. Right. But what, what I heard was a concern that too many things were going to get thrown in to what are we doing now? So what I'm saying is make the what are we doing now as where people could join in and then as that becomes more established then open up that other page. Yeah, it's very funny. I think it's good. Absolutely. I like what you said. Open up. Which other page do you mean, Stacy? This one. This one? Yeah. I think Stacy's saying, you know, especially in preschool here, we would like to get the kindergarten, but we're not there yet. So before we get there, could we just like not, you know, build everything? Could we just lay a groundwork? I understand, Jerry, where you're coming from and you can certainly because the, you know, this is your project and you're, you can just say, well, here's how I look at it. Right. You know, and maybe at some point there'll be a page for, you know, other things, you know, other quote related things to work on. Right. You know, pun intended. Pun intended. Very funny. And I think that happens, right? I know it has happened in sort of the metaproject work because there's a lot to be done and there's only so many hours, so many people so much. Yeah, exactly. So the same with Pete and I are massive wiki. We have a long list of stuff. We're basically being brutal about what's the, you know, what's the next one thing we're going to try and do. Yeah. Cool. So I, conceptually, I have no problem building out this page and publicizing it right now because I can, and it's also a short play, a short way for somebody to jump in and go, all right, all right, what's up? And I can then point to, hey, come join us in these conversations and, you know, take a look. But, but I don't, I'm okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to say what, I'm going to channel Stacy, so I'm going to say, okay, so you should already say, one thing that's already happened is that the wiki has been established. Right. So if you want to say, you know, in accomplishments, hey, wiki established. You know, once there was somebody I met online in England who said rather than doing a to-do list, he started doing things I had gotten done list. And I did that for a week. It was really nice. Changed a freaking light bulb that broke off. I had to call an electrician. You know, it was like, just, it was like, oh, this is so much more fun than trying to build a list of all these other things you'll never have time to do. Yeah. So Jerry, let me give you, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. So we talked about like, there's going to be a certain standing call where the topic is going to be directly related to relate. What I'm suggesting is you have that call and you have that series of calls. And then later you'll be able to link it. Like then you can say, here's one of the, we have these standing calls, the relate calls. And now you have that project and there's something actually there that you could link it to. Not we're going to start having these calls. Cause yes, we have OGM calls, but they're not specifically relate calls. Right. So right now there's nothing on the standing calls page. Nothing's preventing me from putting in, our standing calls will be at this time on these dates, please show up. And then saying, we're holding standing calls. And then a table with the minute we start having the calls, here's the link, here's the this, here's the that. So anybody can come catch up. But why would I not be able to do that today? Well, and to Bill's point, you can do it, but you have to understand, you have the grand design, cause this is your project. Not everybody coming in is going to have that blueprint. And I just, And what I'm trying to do with the wiki is be as, as crisp and transparent as I can about that plan and put as much of it. Let Bill talk. Ms. Anderson. No, I have the, well, I think I have an answer. I love that. Because my, one of my best friends, we always have been talking for years, you've been writing software and, you know, people say, well, just, you know, read my code and you'll see what it does. And I said, yeah, I found out what your program does, but I don't know what it's for. Which cannot be written in the programming language you're using, I'm sorry. You know, it's not available. So what I would like for my background in the sort of the tapestock and the other group relation stuff, one thing that would help for standing calls would be what is the, well, first of all, what is the primary task of the standing calls? And then each call may itself have a primary task. Like today, I, Jerry, meed or want feedback, blah, blah. I just wanna talk for 15 minutes and see what happens, you know, whatever, but. So that's what I do with my office hours specifically, right? Yes, but I just like, for me, the tapestock that offered, when they said primary task, that really grounds things and why have we decided to come together here? So I can do the same, I can do exactly this for standing calls. So I could say, hey, we're picking Tuesdays at 3 p.m. Pacific as a standing call for relate, which is this project over here, go look and you'll see what it is. And I could build out a little agenda that says, hey, we're gonna feed this calendar with what we're gonna talk about for each of the standing calls. And then each of those could point to an agenda page or a page for the call, which is like what we were doing on the other wikis. Yeah, so to read the question is, but there is a, the recent, there is, you know, well, here's the other way that this from a Neil Postman view. So standing calls is a solution. What problem is it solving and whose problem is it? It's more like I'm trying to say that for this relate project, it's like everything you put on the wiki is there for a reason. Yes. And it would be nice to help people when they come into this project to say, you know, we have established standing calls for the following purpose. We have established blah, blah, blah for the following, you know, to occur so that then people could ask questions, you know, you'd make somebody say, why do you even bother, you know, whatever, but you or those of us who actually, you know, feel related would be able, would actually be able, you know, to have a, you know, we would know what it's for. I really think this is a primary question when you're trying to do something. Even a scientific experiment. I can repeat your thing in the lab, but I don't know why you did that experiment. Yeah. It's like, so that's like the other piece, a little bit of a meta, but it's really, really helps provide the context for things. Got it. So two answers to that. One is why does relate exist? Which you have to go like look at the page that says what is relate and what's it trying to get done? And hopefully that's really crisp and clear. So one of them is just like the overall purpose of the whole project. And then standing calls are one thing that we've adopted broadly over our little flotilla of communities as a way of moving each project forward. So the reason for a standing call is to move the project forward as a community. Do we need more of a reason than that? Not necessarily. Okay. But it's, but that's a good enough reason. And then somebody could say, well, how do calls actually do that? Right. You know, but whatever. But at least it's not like we just get together on, you know, Tuesdays at six and whatever happens happens. It's like, I mean, there were many standing meetings in Xerox on projects that basically were ways could well have been just not, didn't really need to have them. But they became this kind of a thing, you know? Had its own life outside of a purpose. But I think, you know, I mean, you've been doing the OGM thing for two plus years now. So you have lived experience and evidence for what benefit, what affordances they provide for other things. Well, and Rex before that, and Yvette before that. But just to be clear about that, because I, you know, I am still, even though I don't work anymore, I'm still like, when people are at a meeting, it's like, well... Oh, totally. And I was like, what's the deal with this? It's just a task here. Like, I'm a decision. Yeah. I'm agreed. And I think there should only be a standing call if there's a reason for a bunch of people to get together to do something around a project. And the description of the standing calls and the project descriptions are a way for people to sort themselves into where they wanna spend their life energy. Yeah, yeah. Sure, but I, yeah. Is it good? Yeah, yeah. I'm just, you know, I'm gonna be like that. Cool. But I just think it can be clarifying to say, here's what it's for. Yeah. And somebody who says, how do you know it works? It's like, here's why. At least on this experience is why we choose to continue to do it. Right. And I think that's just clarifying. Oh, a question you can probably answer. Projects. A question you can probably answer in the tiles. This link right here, this is in fact the name of the page. It's a tile rendering Excalibur. It is exact exact name of page. How do I change this? The presenting text is only with rendering Excalibur, but it still points to that page. I think you, oh, I gotta look at this. Because I did the wrong thing a moment ago. Basically it renamed the page and didn't change the text that was showing here. And that was when I did rename right here. That didn't work. No, no, no. Sorry, I'm a dope about this. This is where I use, you know, my favorite search engine and just type obsidian. How do I blah, blah? Okay. I will do that. Somebody will come back, but no, it's formatted like this. Pete might remember. I don't, there is just either it's like you put a vertical bar in there. There's some, some. Yeah, exactly. There's a syntax. I don't know what it is. Obsidian, what do we call this? Aliases? No. No, named links. I try that. Link to file hyperlink anchor, different name right there. Like that. So when you link to a website, you can do, this is not the URL, which is, even though the name is, so try, you're right. Pipe and my description is like this. This is, this does not work with links. I'm confused. This was not a straightforward answer here. Yeah, I know. But it's, it involves the pipe symbol as you just said. I believe that's true, but I'd have to try it. So maybe. So look at this one. So my description is like this parentheses. Yeah. Oh, that's for an external link. What you want is for an internal link. Yeah. Bingo. For a wiki. So use the word wiki link. So let me just try that being the page bar. Let's see if that works. It does not totally breaks. So that was the wrong answer. Oh, but you put in a bar and you're in a table. So there you go. Yeah, but that I'm just, I'm just right drawing a link and the link is working just fine. Yeah, but you should behave like a link. Yeah, but you put a vertical bar in there and you're building a table. So it's, oh, the vertical bar reads, gotcha. In a table. Yeah. It reads like a tab. So yeah, this is, this is the more fun like you see to put the wooden nickel under your tongue. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Fascinating. Well, thank you. Good point. There is a way to do it. All right. But you're right. We have the complexity of being inside a table. So on my brain is full. This has been like a good office hour. I think what I need to do is go work on the things we just talked about. And I wanna try to shoot a video to get over to John and to say, here's what's up. All right. Oh, is there a feature in his brain today? I think so. I will answer in the chat for you then. Thank you. There should totally be a free Jewish brain today. Cool. I appreciate that. And I will see you soon. In a couple hours. Yeah, in an hour. Philip is good to see you. Bye-bye. Yay. Thank you. Until soon. Yeah, you should turn off the video. Turn what? The video off. You mean the recording? The recording.