 We value your feedback. This is all about youth and politics. And today we want to talk about transformational leadership. What is transformational leadership? Who is a transformational leader? And I want to talk about this particular issue there, that this big word that you can say written here, this big word here, what does it mean? Are we considering this word during this coming election? We need to talk about this political party or that political party. Do we have this kind of a leader in the ballot? This is a conversation we need to have even as we talk about transformational leadership. And I have a fantastic panel ladies and gentlemen. To my far right, I am with Kangondu Junior. He is a counselling psychologist and of course next to me I am with Kathleen Morely, a research scientist. Thank you so much for coming. And of course I will engage with us, let us know what you think about this particular issue. The hashtag is one in the morning at Ram Aguko and at Y254 channel, which is the official station handle. And of course let us know where you are watching us from. Let us engage about this and of course you can ask your questions. Feel free to share your opinion in regards to this matters concerning transformational leadership. But before we get into the integrity, first things first, Kangondu. It's been a while since you met. Oh yes, it's been a minute. It's been a minute. Tell us how you are doing and for somebody who is just meeting you for the first time, something a bit more about what you do. Yes, thank you so much Ram. Happy to be back here. My name is Kangondu Junia from Mankia, Africa and also working with my good friend Kathleen and the future leaders, you know, GBR, Kenyan chapter. I'm a counseling psychologist. GBR, business round table. Global business round table. Yes, where she is the chair and I'm the vice chair. The future leaders, Kenyan chapter. So under her leadership we did some amazing work with transformational leadership and also working and supporting young people to grow in a holistic way. I'm a counseling psychologist and also a transformational coach helping people to negotiate life stages from one level to the other and also manage life issues as they come about. Earlier on we have talked about is it that there are so many challenges or is it that people don't have the mechanism and the ways to deal with the issues that most of them are not equipped and that's where we are there to heal nations and transform lives. Kathleen, um... Kathleen, a bit more about what you do for somebody's meeting for the first time today. Okay, alright. So my name is Kathleen Moribi. I tend to think of myself as a thinker of my generation in one of Africa's most forefront young leaders. When you mentioned that statue of the thinker... Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes, exactly. I'm very passionate about how young people are using their ingenuity combined with the nexus of technology to champion innovative solutions that solve global challenges and also accelerate the economies of the world. Thank you so much for coming and I appreciate your presence. Let's talk about what a transformational leader is. I'll get both your opinions in regards to this particular terminology because, yes, we're talking about a transformational leader and for someone who is listening they are like, ah, kizumu mingi. Kwaili? What is this transformational leader by definition in your own words? I'll go by the word itself. The word transform. Something is to influence something in one or another. It could be in a negative aspect or it could be in a positive aspect. But if you're looking at it from a positive spectrum, transformational leadership is the ability to influence or to provoke positive change within the societal structure. So we're looking at systems that are already in place but you have identified gaps that need to be changed for the betterment of the expected outcome. I'll give an example of a transformational leader, Kibaki. During his tenure we were able to see the adoption of the constitution and it is from the practical aspect of that constitution and in its status of play that we were able to see other transformational leadership coming into existence and borrowing from that and being very confident into explaining or disseminating information that they feel members of the society could consume in one way or another. Yes, yes. So the difference in transformational leadership I like what she is saying and transformational leadership is not just about the position because every other person can be a leader by the mere fact that they are in that position but they are merely doing nothing about transforming their lives and also changing their lives. And I'm thinking of John Maxwell when he takes us through the stages and the levels of leadership not only the position but also getting to think on the performance that they are guiding and walking through with and also changing their lives. The thing is, yes we have leaders but they don't have visions and the question is if they don't have a vision will they be able to help us to get to where we want? It's not only having the vision but also having the means and mechanisms of getting us there. And this is where Kathleen is talking about when this particular position or you are a leader in a certain segment or other leaders because we have seen so many gaps when one's regime is over and done we don't have people who are coming up people that can be able to take their position and no wonder we get to hear say during the barriers of a prominent person and especially the leaders we can't fit in their shoes but the question is what they are able to actually mold and ensure that they are able to help other transform to the kind of a leader or leading to a transition from one leader to another that is smooth. Precisely. And that's very important because we have seen the gap and no wonder we go for the who is who or Tom Dick and Harry in the village by the mere fact that we are related by blood or even we share the same neighborhood and this is not that they have quality leadership styles and this is how we say this is our son and when we have such as a qualifying factor for these leaders then we go wrong. So that means the needs of this particular community, society are not going to be met. And so we got a tissue but I am looking at the Kenyan setup and of course we are going to connect this with the Kenyan youth because the majority of what is other youth absolutely. And we agree that if the youth know what they are doing then they will vote for the right people. When it comes to a transformational leader how can you pick out a particular transformational leader from the rest? Is it possible? Yes, we have seen them being in office for so many years and some are fresh because during these coming elections we have fresh faces that are coming out. How can you pick out a transformational leader from the crowd and make the right decision? I think it also boils down to an individual understanding of what leadership is even before we even get to what a transformational leader is. And leadership to me is both an art and a science. You need to have a certain talent for you to be able to influence a crowd towards a certain dimension. But you also need to have certain techniques that you will use to influence this change that you want to see in the community. So as youths we need to look at it from that point. There are so many people who can be leaders you are a leader in your own fort but are you able to influence people towards the change that they want to see in their own community. So now this is where Kagondis talking about the gaps. Is it in the policies? Is it in the advocacy issues? Is it in the institutional frameworks? Is it in the regulations? Yes. Yes. Yes. If you look at the examples of transformational leaders that we have, most of them are very quiet. There are not people who will go out and shout I am going to do this and do that. You look at their actions. At the end of the day actions speaks louder. What have they done in their own fort? So that now you can actually magnify that into how they are going to impact the change once they become the leaders that they want to become the leaders to take. You look at it from what have they done so far. So the past influences the future in this case? Not entirely. The achievements, the lessons, the growth. Everyone has a past but what have you achieved from your experiences in the past? What are the lessons that you have picked? How have you applied that in your daily life and can we see the progression? That is something that youths should be able to look at it at that kindly because it is from that point that they are able to say this is a transformational leader. Because there are so many types of leaders, so many styles. We have the autocratic leadership. You talked about servant leadership. There is a strategic leadership. There is democracy that we have in Kenya which is very participatory and consultative but is that on paper? Do we see it on the ground? Even as we talk about transformational leadership is it just words? Do we see it on the ground? Do they have the potential to be transformational leaders? Because you can't start when you talk about there are so many people that are coming up to fight for this position. Does that mean that we did not have transformational leadership before? Do we need to look at it from an aspect of capacity building? Do we need to train them? Do we need to increase the knowledge based on what leadership is all about? Because it is from that point that we will be able to understand these gaps. I like that and especially because what you have seen today when you talk about new faces in the arena there are a lot of showbiz in the whole spectrum. We have seen people walking down in the streets taking photos, selfies with the mamambogas and all that in the name of serving these people. The question is what they are before and this is where Kathleen is talking about it has to start with the individual first even before you come to the limelight. Could it be that you are also transforming these mamambogas that you are taking photos with as you are giving them handouts as you are giving them some tokens something to inspire their businesses in one way or the other? The question is what happens after that? Is it just for the mere fact that you want to be seen? Is it just for the likes and also for the followership? We have seen so many leaders who come for that particular occasion when they are looking for the votes and all that but then after they get into their offices they get those positions you see them at the end of their time coming back to ask you can you get me back to their office and I am going to do ABCD but they never deliver and the question is when they are doing those photos when they are going to the mamambogas giving them 500 bob do they have the desire and also the interest of these people or is it just a personal interest to ensure that they are showing that they are doing something like where I come from I have seen roads that have not been done for the longest time possible and that has been one of the things that they use to do the campaigns every other person is coming down saying that I am going to tamak this place I am going to pipe water to these homesteads we are going to get electricity but it has been done since time immemorial so what we like is people do what they mean even as we talk about people who don't do what they are saying because we are talking about promises being made and nothing being delivered in some instances now does it mean being a transformational leader can be challenging even if someone is yes there is a dark side to transformational leadership dark side yeah there is a dark side to everything basically most transformational leaders always begin with the end in mind they don't look at the minor details I see myself building a road I see myself developing the infrastructure of this place but do you have the right people to begin with you are just looking at the bigger picture but what is the road map are resources part of it resources are part of it key resources, key activities what is your unique value proposition how are you going to do things differently so you are selling the bigger picture but you are not selling the road map so it becomes very difficult for people who are exposed intellectuals and that's another disadvantage to leadership how do you stimulate the intellectuals because they know what you are talking about is capacity building part of this particular issue here it is if the members of your community are not exposed to certain ideologies if you are not stimulating them to certain intellectual capacities how will they understand the road map I will build this school but how is it benefiting them I am going to build this hospital how is it benefiting them you will build the hospitals but it is not going to be beneficial to them in the long run they will say the hospital will be just a building because we have seen roads that are not built, I know places I travelled to a particular area and that road was pathetic and I was asking myself this what leader what kind of a leader is this and I ended up asking myself so many questions, is it about the leader or the people of the leader working with all the resources what could be the challenge here when you talk about the vision and how to get there that could be the main challenge and I love the fact that we are looking at the resources and the people surrounding you and this is where the thing to do with mentorships comes about you need to mould other young people or even people near you around your table to actually ensure that they also are able to transform and also deliver on the things that you promise to your people many other times we are just about to get to the rainy seasons but the sad matter is that we also have people complain that they are being carried along by the floods and all that then immediately after that they will be drought and the question is, is it that we are really that equipped, we don't have the capacity to actually deliver in terms of even the food security and also the infrastructure and when you get to hear about the farm it's not that we don't have the rents or the waters it's only that we don't have the right infrastructure and this is where the leaders have to be very intentional in terms of meeting the needs of these particular people so it's not just about building the roads or putting up a certain facility and all that, do they meet the needs of these particular people because like you saying you can have some big buildings you can have some very big resource centers but they are actually those are just dead capital or rather funds that are just sitting there without benefitting their people and this is where they have to be really in touch with the needs of their people you don't have to be in the city that's where your bedroom is and you just show up in the village or where the people are for the name of just getting the votes or just showing that you are there so if we talk about being in touch then does it mean that it is not actually the best kind of leadership in my own opinion it is not it is not it entirely if it stands on its own if it stands on its own if it stands on its own because it makes the leader feel a certain way remember the followers of the community are borrowing from the vision of this transformational leader so what happens if the members of this community do not buy into the vision what happens very true because we have seen even those transformational leaders that you are talking about tending to apply the other types of leadership when there is need be so we can say that entirely we have to be a transformational leader but the thing is are you aware when need be to actually portray a certain character in terms of the other leadership styles because you can be so tender you can be so soft you can be a man of the people but there are situations that require you to be hands on and actually instilling and also commanding like putting your foot forward to ensure that things happen so the thing is are you able to dictate are you able to actually pick when there is need be to play these different roles a good example is what we call now the CAPS county action plans was there public participation to say that Nairobi County these are the pillars that we are going to implement do the youth know these things exist when you say media and entertainment that's one of the pillars how are you impacting the youth in terms of media and entertainment do they even know what are the channels that they need to use for them to be impacted as a youth who is living in Nairobi County what can I do you see now that that's an ideology of a transformational leader but are the youths buying into this vision do they have an idea of the existence of this kind of thing so you have to borrow from all kinds of leadership styles there has to be the participatory approach which now brings democracy into play sometimes you have to be autocratic if they are in discipline you have to be authoritative yeah this is how things are this is what we need to do and this is how I mean it when I say ABC and there is a time to apply one yes yes yes yes so if that is the case it means the solution leadership is standing on its own is going to be very challenging it's assuming that everything works in an idealistic way right now if that's the case what should somebody do when they are in a position where they do not understand the kind of leader they are dealing with you see the kind of leader where you don't know their mind you don't know what their next move could be and of course it's always hidden it's always that hidden card that they play that of course you will only realize it when you are at that particular point and it's too late and then it's already being played that particular card how then do you handle yourself in that particular time point in time when you are talking about the point of view from the follower yes I think also to mention that most leaders have a personal vendetta we cannot run away from that you have to do a little research as an individual you cannot be led by mass you cannot just follow the crowd what are your needs as an individual what are the gaps for example as a youth I am unemployed who is talking about unemployment crisis in Kenya right now who is talking about how we are going to change the policies that affect MSMEs people that are starting their businesses who is talking about the regulations business law do youths understand business law you started a business do you understand the laws that govern the kind of business that you are doing do we have leaders that educate youths about this so at an individual basis level understand that person do research on that particular person yes connect and connect with your needs because it is only then will you be able to identify I identify with this person why is everyone talking about this leader who is am I allowed to say the name no problem why are you so passionate about this person have you read his manifesto I haven't come across it so many people are very passionate about this leader why so here we have different leaders and just to mention for example if it is him he has stood out in a particular area and that's what makes him to be a subject of conversation yes there is a need he has identified and he has capitalized on that and so have the areas if for jokwa is weed ruto is haslas that's what you talk about here but now the thing is there is no rationalism there you are looking at it from an emotional perspective and that's where we go wrong and from the leader side they capitalize on that capitalize on that it's very easy for you to send emotions it's very easy and if I see that this is what you're desperate about I'm going to sell it even if I don't see any value from it and that is what this leaders are doing so it is for us as youths to rationalize everything let's look at things from a logical perspective in the next 5 years how will this leader impact my life and again as I say research where do I want to be in the next 5 years then marry your perspectives together with this leader I like it when you bring that element of emotions because emotions actually makes things happen and if you are able to touch the emotions of the followers and all that they are really able to connect with you as a leader and you see the followers from the other end we always complain that the leadership the government is doing nothing absolutely nothing in terms of our civic duty in terms of getting to letting us but it's very important for us to understand that you also have a mandate a responsibility individually to ensure that we get empowered and this is when we say that this is a possibility of having a leader with no portfolio or even now we can be able to pick what they have done see what is happening once they get their liwi or their certificate to contest in a certain seat we are seeing the media houses putting out a portfolio meaning that everybody has a footprint that they have left behind something that they have done before and also this is why we need to really be aware of the people that we have and are placing on those positions because you can tell me that my area MP is someone that I can do some homework on this is somebody that I have here though we can rely on that only but you can be able to pick where they have been what they have done before most of these leaders get into the political arena they could be in the corporate world or even in a certain institution what has been the history now let's talk about that particular part what has been the history is it right or okay for a leader to get offended because some do get offended when you question them or what they have done in the past but you did this you cannot deliver if you did this in the past and they get offended they are like oh this guy he is hurting me and that is the notion everybody wants to defend themselves and ensure that they get to that position but the thing is you can tell me that I am going to perform and my track record is not showing the same and this is why we say everybody leaves a footprint everywhere they get to and this is why we get to hear someone was in a certain parastato