 Today's guest is about as San Franciscan as it's possible to be as you see I'll see in a few moments Now you I asked this question even though you told me a little while ago Are you a native San Franciscan? Yes indeed? I was born here. You you were born here And I was told and I'm gonna have you repeat. What about your parents were they born here also my mother was my father I don't think was Now do I I'm trying to recall from our original conversation whether or not you have been interested in your genealogy at all Do you do you have a record way back of your family or or does it end at your grandparents or great grandparents? Do you happen to have that record? Well, my daughter has done some researching on my mother's family and They came from they were scotch Irish. Yes. Well, well your mother's name. What was there? What was their family name Ferguson Ferguson? I see yes, that's clutch. Yes and they came my grandmother Came to the United States after the potato famine in Ireland. Oh, yes, father was a linen merchant and There was really I don't think they were ever actually hungry, but there was so much Difficulty at that time that she came to New York as a young girl about 18 Approximately what year would that be? Oh That must have been about 1840 about 1840. Oh, yes. Yeah now Did your mother tell you any stories now? Oh, of life F here in San Francisco Let's say during the time before you were born. Did she impress you with the circumstances and Your own mother now. Oh, yes. Yes indeed. She did She was born on Lincoln Hill. Oh on Lincoln Hill. Yes Yes, and as a little girl she played down among the boats on the beaches of Lincoln Hill because Lincoln Hill was like Telegraph Hill it spread out into the into the bay a nice sandy beach So that she was a real San Francisco and in that era to see that was when Rincon Hill was Really a hill. Yes, that's right. I kind of a Crescent the harbour was a little question between Telegraph Hill and Lincoln Hill Oh, it was a sort of a crescent in there and as they as they made the streets for San Francisco by San Francisco was one great big sand dune Covered with lupin bushes and as they began to make the street They would haul some of the sand and dump it into the Crescent of the bay until they finally had it pretty well filled up. I Recall now seeing an old map whereby San Francisco Bay came up as far as First Street or so didn't it I think came up almost as far as Montgomery It did it did on the north side of market. Yes. Yes, and of course we have a street named front Street So so that was each street and yes and and beat street that that is right So that this has all been filled in there and of course recently when they were building the building this ship They found there is evidence of that of course by the way where in San Francisco Were you born you yet? What where were you born? Your mother was born on Rincon Hill. Where were you born? Well, I was actually born in San Mateo. They were down there for the summer vacation. Oh, yes You you did however your parents had a residence in the city at the time Yes, it was being built at that time on Broadway and the Visadero. Oh, yes. Is that particular building still standing? In fact, I think it's alias or son who owns it now. Oh, is that right? You mean the former mayor Joe Alioto's son? Yes, that's right. Oh, yes, that's interesting. Well, it is being lived in then and has been kept in good repair Yes, I have found interestingly enough that some of the folks born in San Francisco have their their original homes Of course have gone the way of of all buildings in that they have been taken down for reconstruction or some other thing now Then do you do you have any recollections of your very first entrance into a San Francisco school or your your study? I happen to know some of the part of the answer, but I want you to answer it if you will You did you attend the San Francisco public schools at all? No, but the schools were not very good in those days And I wait my sister and myself had a had just the governess who taught us reading and writing Oh, yes, you told me a little bit about this and I thought it was a good story And and I'd like to have you repeat it as much as you can remember or would like to Because do you remember some of the things? Let's let's say for example that your father had to do with helping this governess or teacher that you had To begin to take in additional students and become an established school. Is that not correct? Well, it wasn't this teacher that the first I see has the governess to begin with it was governance to begin with But later on I did go to Miss West school in those days And I was in the sixth grade and my teacher was Miss Burke Miss Catherine Del Mar Burke and I was very fond of her and She became acquainted with my mother because I she taught me at school And she said she wanted to found her own school someday So my mother lent us some money and encouraged her to do so and that was the beginning of Burke school That's an interesting story and you were there firsthand and and perhaps one of Two or three of the first students. Is that correct? Yes one of six one of six and three little sisters Well, they were in different grades, of course, so that she was teaching at that time all of the studies necessary for Several different grades. Is that right? Yes, well, we're all about the same grades who started the school So she taught us reading writing and arithmetic Did you go at an early hour to that school? Did you for example, did you arrive at school at 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock? What time in the morning 8 30 used to go to school and then then you had your normal recesses I presume the same as a public school would have had or did you have that sort of a break just went in the morning We didn't go in the afternoon. There's no afternoon session. I see you do you do you feel that that you were given? Adequate knowledge or adequate lessons were they were they hard lessons? Do you remember that they were difficult for you? Oh, I don't know that they were difficult but we certainly were well educated miss Burke was a brilliant has a brilliant mind and a Very dramatic way of teaching. She could get us into into a state of tears or laughter at a moment's notice And I remember that when we were studying Greek history and she said the The Greek fleet sailed from the pirate Piraeus never to return and she had it all in tears Oh, is that right? This this is a talent all in itself. Yes, it is. Yes The other thing I think about can I go back to your tutor when you were first tutored before you went to miss Burke school? Did you how much time did you spend with the tutor? Did the tutor come to your home? Yes, I see so that they came perhaps for half a day We are is that is that so that it was not a full-day session But they again would have the time to give you the individual instruction that was certainly most helpful Even though I haven't had the opportunity or never did have reason although I I have to Uncertain courses in chemistry. I remember in school that I did go to an instructor for tutoring So that I I do have some semblance of knowledge on what that is. Well, then you were taught in your home you went to miss Burke school and Your assignments were effective certainly because you have been successful throughout your life and Were you given a diploma or certificate of proficiency? What was the status of learning at that time? Did they I don't remember you don't remember you don't have it today then I presume But at least you felt that you you had adequate knowledge Yeah, and I wondered about that today, of course, you can get a certificate for most most anything you do and But then then you did follow through and you did attend college am I correct? Yes I went the first year of college. It was the first World War and then I married this and gave up college and got married because my Fiancé was going off to France. Oh, yes. Well, then that must have been in 1916 or 17 right? Yes, that's right in 19 say and and so that you were left here and of course I Feel certain he did return and or were you married before he went? Oh, he did. Oh, I see so that he was there and did he see action your husband see action No, he didn't he didn't I see Yes, of course this I remember such things, but I'm afraid many of our listeners will not so I shouldn't talk about things that that They wouldn't associate with Properly well then during the war. Did you take up some kind of work? Did you did you actually work for pay? Let's say for at some firm or a hospital or no We all did volunteer work Rolling bandages and things of that kind but not being paid for it. You do remember of course the flu epidemic I presume. Yes, I had it. Did you have it severely? Did you have a severe case of it? Yes, and my mother performed a cesarean on me. She was a surgeon doctor. Oh, is that right? Your mother was a surgeon and a doctor and you did well you had you had The the influenza. Yes while you were pregnant. Is that right? Yes, that's right and she performed and your mother did this Yes, that's right. This is exciting because I thought there was some deference Given a strange doctor has compared to a relative in such instances, but that is not the case Well, she was the best in the city in that I see a line I see and so you couldn't very well Or no one would make any attempt to change that that that's that's interesting and there's another interesting thing Is my son is a surgeon and he one time operated on to on me for a hernia So I think he says I'm the first woman who's ever been operated on by her mother and her son That is interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Well, let's see now. We didn't get you to college I want I want to know about your college days Well, I was only there you see a part of the first year I see then then you you were married And you did have you you had no reason then to return or you didn't return to to college in any in any event Well, that's what I wasn't clear and in the short discussion I had with you before I didn't I didn't pick up that kind of a detail well now I want to get into the thing that you have done Over a great many years and I'd like to know if you'll tell me how you became interested in promoting the ideas the idea of open spaces in San Francisco or I'm sure that your interest is not limited to San Francisco if I assume correctly Yes, well, it's a very natural thing you live in a city that's only it's in the building and where we lived on Broadway and Isidore Street There were lupin bushes and sand dunes as far as the eye could see almost So you saw that the city begin to fill up with people and after a certain point the filling up process was Was anything but Welcome you wanted the open spaces you wanted something left Was this personal now this is your own feelings were that you were being surrounded is that right? Yes, but I wasn't the only one with almost every San Francisco We're grown up in the city felt like the crowding of people into the city after the First World War So that your interest in in working toward open spaces is not wasn't new it originated almost by yourself with other Neighbors, that's right, and and you continued it on for the balance of your life so far. Well, it isn't about you Look, pardon me. That's the wrong he's writing for it for your life from that time to till today Well, this is exciting. We'll follow that through for me Will you because I want I want you to tell everything you can about your open space interest and what you have done about it and To promote it and how you believe it will be beneficial Well in the 30s during the Rosefeld era I became interested in civic affairs and we we did a lot about public housing at that time and in the course of that City planning became very interesting to us and in the late 30s I And other young students from the University of California Did a great deal to establish the city planning department in San Francisco. It hadn't existed before so city planning Was my great interest from that point on city planning and open space as part of the balance of density of a city as against Urban sprawl out into the country in the destruction of farmland Would you believe that if my arithmetic is correct? This has been a matter of 60 years that you have been working in this direction more or less. Yes You know you are given credit for effectively working for the passage of proposition J in 1974 Now I presume you had lots of help of course and but that was to establish open spaces Will you tell us a little bit about what that how you worked on that what you did to promote it? And it was passed of course, so yes, it was a charter amendment which permitted the city to Set aside something like three million a year for 15 years to buy the last hilltops the last shoreline the last empty spaces in San Francisco so that we would have some sort of a balance of of our community of dense city living as against open space for parks Tell me how has it worked out has it been has it operated satisfactorily has the city performed Yes, on proposition J. Yes We worked for about two years until proposition 13 was passed And we have we have purchased all the last hilltops in San Francisco. They all as And it's quite interesting Those last hilltops amounted to seven acres and we have paid for those seven acres $1,700,000 Is that right? This shows how little the word gets around even though you have a successful operation I was not aware that the last hilltops have been purchased yes as a Preservation activity by the city. Yes, that's right. That is exciting And I now begin to understand a little bit of why you have a hilltop named after you well we The proposition J. That was passed in 1974 Made it a charter amendment to put aside these three million dollars to buy the last hilltops for 15 years Now there's a hat has the money to do it sure it it takes that and you had to have the cooperation of the city And of course when it's it this was a charter amendment, right? Yes, and this voted by made it possible for the board of supervisors to To approve the money and and then it became it became a fact that that's wonderful Yes, they didn't even have to approve it. It was just a part of the law. It was just a part of the law Yes, and it was passed by an initiative. I You mentioned too that you've got a new program that you will be Expounding on may I say that word expounding be talking about let's say and that is that the San Francisco Procedure may already be declared surplus by the federal government. Perhaps it is to be shortly and You have some ideas about that. Is that right? Well, I heard that room in the other day and following it through the next day. I found it that Plan has been sent back to Congress for Restudying so I don't think it's an immediate problem. Thank goodness. It has been in the news enough Times recently that it eventually may come to pass. However, yes, it could be but I was also assured that if it ever did become so it would be part of the GG NRA the The natural resource Recreation area. Oh, yes. This was that was that what they call a reliable source that told you this sometimes They say things that are not necessarily going to come to pass. Well, I rang up the fort nation headquarters of the GG NRA and they said that it certainly wouldn't be sold to private enterprise At any rate, there'll be part of that Program. Well, this this makes sense. It's a beautiful piece of land Prime as far as all of the Western United States is concerned. I feel I feel certainly now the thing I'd like to have you tell us Is to explain a little bit on how you go about getting support for your open space plans Particularly in San Francisco, but any place in California that are interested in an open space program. What might you suggest they do? to Get interest. Well, I think the first thing is to form a coalition of the already existing conservation groups in that area Whatever they may be. How many of them would you say are in San Francisco? There must be a good number. We have about 18 on our list. There are 18 in San Francisco Yes, and then you call a meeting of some kind with representatives from all of those organizations and you label for them a Proposition of some kind that we must defend our open spaces our hilltops and our shoreline and Keep them for the public. Yes. Now those people are all thinking citizens who have considered What is good and followed it through in that way and you must then have the legal talent necessarily to occasionally Check on the legality or to work on the legality of certain properties. Is that correct? That's correct But there are always plenty of lawyers around to instruct you. Yes, I should say that is right There are plenty around I what I had thought was that you might have some volunteer lawyers in your organization that that would Possibly give you set you right on such things. Well, it always is so too Let's say that I wanted to do something positive to promote open spaces in San Francisco. What would I do? I talked to you first. That's what I know I would do But but what would what would anyone listening do who may not? Wish to either call or contact you in other words There there there is a piece of property that looks like it should be preserved What what would what would you suggest I do about it? Well at the present time there's a program emanating from the natural resource agency It's a state agency and Hewley Johnson is the head of it And he was the president of the trust for public land before he was appointed by Brown Oh, yes to this position so he's a great conservationist and he has a program of forestration in the cities of planting trees in cities right now and Setting aside certain land for vegetable gardens in the city now the organization to which he was a president before he became the natural resource agency director has a program of urban a little urban trust whereby Volunteers in certain neighborhoods can work in a framework. There's legal a little trust and they Develop Say the vacant lots in their neighborhood and plant them in vegetable gardens and the trust for public land tries to get that Private land into public land. Oh, yes by purchase or some other way. Oh, yes I'm going to ask you the only questionable Question of today, you know, San Francisco has a limited space. Let me ask you this question if I may Isn't it more important to have housing and buildings than more open spaces? Well for the economics of it, let's say I Think you simply have to have parks for people the more crowded they become the more they need those parks and open spaces What about the the economics of it? Have you have you delved into that? Is there something that I might find to read telling us about Economics and that sort of thing well, of course is a land is owned by the city. They don't pay taxes on it. Truly. There is a loss So there are taxes, but we haven't so many Vacant lots that would make any appreciable difference It wouldn't you think then that that the open spaces wherever we can get them is They're limited is what I know you believe this incidentally But I wanted to ask you the question and then I want to ask you another question What do you think do you think these open spaces are going to continue to exist through the year 2000 and beyond? It all depends if they're made into a park They probably will if they become under the under the public Control yes, and under the control of organizations such as those you belong to you believe that they will then they will Then the title will run with the land, you know What would you like to say do you know do you would you believe we're running short on time? No, I would like to have you make a statement about open spaces in the next O15 or 20 seconds. What would you say what you might like to say in the interest of open spaces? well, I think we should consider the the open spaces surrounding our cities as just as important as as The land where the tall the high-rise buildings go We need on the outside of our cities a fringe of open space for recreation and for For beauty and for certain a farmland that would be close into the cities things of that kind our time has run out and Nearly every guest which makes me wish we could arrange a repeat And we'll try to think about this at a future time, and I hope you will if we give you a call as I did this time We'll get together because we haven't covered the whole thing by any means. Thank you Dorothy Erskine I'm Truman ball speaking for the San Francisco history room and city guides at the main library in the Civic Center I'll be back in a week at this same time with a guest who will have a story to tell that will help us to Understand San Francisco better than ever So one more time I truly do. Thank you for listening. Good day