 Well, let's talk more about this with Fran Boyd, who is the Executive Director of Positive Money. Hello to you, Fran. Hi there. Thanks so much for coming on and talking to us about this this evening. What do you understand then was going on in this rotten corporate culture at Carillion? Well, yeah, the damning report from the MPs out today on the Carillion scandal is really welcome. I think the most important question it raises is about the role of private finance in our economy and how public projects are funded. I think, you know, the really big question that needs to be discussed now is why was the government looking to Carillion to finance projects in the first place? And this is really the result of faulty economic logic, which says that only the private sector can invest in the economy and not the public sector. And I think this is a really important moment that we need to make sure this report is not forgotten. Unfortunately, it hasn't really had the coverage it deserves. I don't think today, because we really need to use this moment for a proper route and branch reform. Yeah, there's so much going on, isn't there at the moment? But we were talking about a lot when it happened. I mean, those claims that the the executives were too busy stuffing their mouths with gold. I mean, this is really poor for them, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, it's an incredibly damning report. It's, you know, it's a very excellent in detailed description of what's happened, including the fact that, you know, shareholders were paid 79 million in 2017 in the run up to its collapse. But this is the result of having corporates delivering public services, which are based on short term profit maximization for shareholders. And actually, you know, this should be the watershed moment where we rethink how we find public services. And we don't rely on any longer on PFIs and corrupt corporations. It's similar to the conversation I've just been having with Laurie McFarlane, who was talking to us about the problems with rail privatization. It's kind of a similar issue here. I mean, where is this time now to have the rebalance? And do you think it's going to happen? I mean, it's a looking that way, you know, we're seeing it again, a conservative government, he's very against, you know, nationalization having to, again, bring into public ownership that East Coast, we're seeing Carillion, which is delivering enormous amounts of public services from building roads, hospitals, providing school meals. You know, this damning report from MP showing how, you know, already from the collapse, we've lost 2000 jobs. The company was under a mountain of death, about 1.5 billion. And the report's right to say Carillion could happen again and soon. You know, there are many other zombie companies, which have relied on wear out in the economy, including historically low interest rates, just to keep a float under these mountains of debt levels. But if interest rates rise, we could see that Carillion is just a canary in the coal mine. And really, you know, the onus is now on the government to actually take action because, you know, I think people are starting to realize that this isn't the way we can go on any longer. And we need a serious change. Fran Boyd, thank you so much for coming to join us tonight and talking about it here on BBC Radio London. Fran is the executive director of Positive Money, talking about the board of the failed construction giant Carillion being accused of presiding over that rotten corporate culture that is to blame for its collapse. It's a big story. And there we were talking about it here on BBC Radio London.