 Good evening and welcome to episode 369 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Oza Manjouma. It's the Monday edition of the Private Property Podcast. If you join us for the first time, welcome to the family. You are tuned in to the early daily property show in South Africa catering to your property needs. And all our regular views of Facebook and Instagram or on YouTube, welcome to it. Every single weekday, you and I have an appointment at 7 p.m. where I'm always in conversation with a property expert and packing a property matter. And of course, you know that you can always connect with us across our social media platforms. Always love making sure that the conversation continues. It can be Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn. Do make sure that you are always engaging us there. You can follow myself at Oza Manjouma, underscore K on Twitter, as well as on Instagram. And talk about social media. As you know, we're running that incredible competition on our Facebook page where we want you to certainly let us know some of the great insights and advice that you've picked up while watching the show that we'd also like to share with the rest of the family on our Facebook page and use that chance of walking away with 500 rands in cash. And all you have to do to walk away with that cash prize is to make sure that you are tuning in live every single day. Because if we call your name, you need to drop us a text to claim that prize and that's how you can walk away with the money. And if the winner that we call out does not text us before the show ends then of course the money rolls over in the money bag and we see who's going to get the lucky winner the following day. Well, those are the great competitors. That is the great competition. Of course, that you can look forward to this evening and certainly this month as we continue running that competition. And something else that you can look forward to is of course the real estate industry summit that's taking place later this week for days to go. And that's a great virtual event that is taking place and you can get all the details on realestateindustriesummit.co.za You'll be able to get great insight from property experts who really are going to deepen your property knowledge. And of course, do make sure that you always tune into the shows that we have every single weekday at 8 p.m. As you can see, coming up later on at 8 p.m. tonight is going to be challenged. Who's going to be bringing you the Home Shoppers show. And here's also on your screens every single Friday at the same time. And every Tuesdays and Thursdays you can catch them by bringing you the farming or podcasts tackling all things agriculture. And of course on Wednesdays, ISTI classin' brings you the first time home buyers show. Those are some of the great shows you can look forward to across private parties, social media pages, every single weekday at 8 p.m. And as we kickstart the Monday edition of the show we know it's going to be a nice great week ahead of us. I want to find out from you how is the weekend, what did you get up to this weekend? We're continuing to have electricity issues unfortunately in the country. We also know that we're continuing to have a number of challenges when it comes to also deciding on people to matters. Because I've seen some posts with different people say I'm still on the fence about what to do, where to, for instance, even buy a property or rent a property and wanting to get a sense from the other members of the family on how they can best think that through. So do you let us know down below how the weekend was, what you got up to. And this evening we're actually going to be talking about a topic and I was saying to my guest, and this is a guest we've never had on the show or talking to her. She was actually a bit nervous. She hasn't done this before with us. And I told her that look, this is the family. We are very accommodating. We absolutely love talking property. And she's willing to feel right at home. So I definitely want to ask you at home to make sure that our guest feels at home and comfortable because this is the one show you shouldn't be nervous to come on to. We're going to be talking urban development in South Africa. It's one of my absolute absolute favorite topics. We're talking about urban planning and city planning. But what is it? What goes into it? What is it not? How do we go about planning for the cities that we're living in, especially given the way that the cities we currently have came about? Look at Johannesburg. We know that it was a city that came about because of gold and even the way they went about building the city in some instances was not particularly delivered. So this evening we're going to be looking at urban development in South Africa. Our guest is Uku Kusitori, the founder and director at Zipelelip Consultancy. Uku, good evening and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening and thank you for having me and thank you for that great introduction. Much of it. I think a really good starting point when we talk about urban development in South Africa is to first unpack what is urban development? And what do we mean when we talk about urban development? All right. Wow. I think what is important to highlight when you talk about urban development is that it is multilayered and when you talk about urban development, we're not talking about physical development alone. I actually like an example that you made with a city of Joburg that it was planned around gold. People going there just to mine and to de-goal. And it was not people-centered. So now when we talk about urban development, we're talking about the development that is people-centered. Our cities, are they addressing social issues? Are they addressing economic issues? There's a number of things that one has to look at. I used to get a question that what are you still, what towns are you still planning as a town planner? And actually our sort of like a formal name in our qualification we are called town and regional planners. But it does not really talk to physical development as I explained. There's quite a number of things that we have to deal with the city planners. It's not about mega infrastructure projects. So also as a city planner, you have a critical role to actually bring together other role players within the built environment to ensure that our cities, not only our cities, but also our rural spaces, they actually function in a way that it addresses all other social issues that we are faced with in South Africa. So it requires a collaborative effort from different role players within a built environment. And you know, good weathering is actually such a great starting point. And I've, this is one of those topics that I've observed that when we look at cities, excuse me, not just in South Africa, not just in the global south but also of course when you look at cities in the global north and knowing that for the most part we've built the big cities, right? The London is there. New York is there. Johannesburg is there. Yorktown is there. So these cities are there. And when you look at the work of city and regional, regional and city planners and asking what is their job then, right? If we say the cities are already there, it's already been planned. So what exactly is it that they go about doing and how do they make our cities better? I think it's also about how, if you can just help us understand them almost in a step-by-step process because you already started talking about it, that it's about being people-centered and isn't about necessarily mega-projects. And when you talk about being people-centered or making sure that a city is people-centered, what do we mean by that? Because I think there's some people who probably may not have an understanding of what is meant by building cities or building on so that cities can be people-centered. All right. Basically, to simplify it, there's a term in urban planning that we use. It's a concept of place-making. So we're making places that actually work for people. It addresses everyday needs of the general public. I mean, not everybody has got cars to actually move from point one to point two. So if those small things that a city planner has to look at to say, is the environment that I'm creating, is it safe for instance for women and children to actually walk in our streets? It's those kind of things. And actually with city planning or urban planning, it's not something that you just do one day and it's over. So you have to ensure that working with other role-players in the built environment, ensure that if you're putting a project or a development for instance a housing project somewhere, do you have sufficient water in that area are your three slides working in that area? So it's a continuous thing where you have to constantly check that things are functioning in your city. That's what urban planning is all about, ensuring that our cities are functional. I think that's the term that we normally use now in city planning, ensure that cities are liveable and they are functional. So things are working, your street lights are working, there's proper transportation, there's proper communication services. So now when you look at those small things, you're not talking about make a project that people often look at or expect from city planners. It's making sure that the city works. It functions, it caters for the daily needs of the people. That is what I'm talking about when I'm referring to a city-centered, I mean a people-centered city planning or urban planning. It's all about place-making, making sure that the space that we are creating, it works, it works for people. So that's essentially what we are talking about. And that requires not just an urban planner, that's what I actually indicated in the beginning of our conversation, that urban planning is multilayered. You have to make sure that everybody involved is on board and you are all working towards a common goal. And I think that is why most of the municipalities, not even just most of the municipalities, the municipalities have developed something called an integrated development plan. It actually translates what different sexual divisions have to work towards to ensure that our cities work, our rural areas work. You find that as a planner you have to bring in an engineer, you have to bring in someone from waste management, you have to bring in someone from policing department because we need to make sure that the city is safe as well. Those are the critical issues that we have to look at if we're talking about urban development, we're not looking at just the physical structures, the liars urban design that we now see, but other aspects that makes a city, that makes urban development, are they working together towards a common goal, ensuring that we are servicing the people because that is what we are actually tasked with as urban planners to make sure that we address social and economic issues of the general public. I am this evening joined by I was the founder and director at the Zipelelo Consultancy looking at urban planning in South Africa. I see you're already getting some of the love and social media on our Facebook page, Megan from Scout Bakers watching. Thank you so much. You look beautiful Zama, thank you very much. Of course, it means it's a lot of responses to the question I asked earlier about the weekend, what you got up to, saying this weekend was lit, and it was a lot of good music and good vibes. I know that it's the era of the big days. I do hope that as you go about enjoying being on level one, that you're being responsible as much as possible, that you're fully vaccinated to make sure that you don't spread any kind of risk to your loved ones. I want us to go for a quick break to see who the potential lucky winner of our competition this evening is. And of course, I hope they're watching and we'll be able rather to claim that prize as we continue our conversation after the break with Upubut's tutorial. Let's see who the lucky winner is going to be this evening. And that lucky winner this evening is Christine DiCiaba. Christine DiCiaba is the lucky winner. I think we've got a thousand rounds in the money bag if I remember correctly. I think we didn't have a winner claim or wait and see what my colleague brings up on our screen. But congratulations to Christine DiCiaba. I hope that you are watching us live and of course are going to claim that prize. And continuing with our conversation with Upubut's tutorial, talking urban development in South Africa. Now, Google, now that we understand what urban development is and just how layered, multi-layered it is especially in today's era, I'm keen to hear then from you about some of the urban development challenges that we almost uniquely face in South Africa. And perhaps some of them are not unique to South Africa, we certainly face in South Africa especially when we look at trying to make our cities as people-centered as possible. And perhaps just to share with us some of the challenges that we would typically find when it comes to urban development and making the right strides within the South African context. Okay, I think one of the biggest challenges that we have in South Africa a lot of people are moving to city centers what we call urbanization and we strongly as cities to actually accommodate that influx. So as much as we can also identify opportunities in our city centers where there is buildings where we can still accommodate people to address the issues of housing it goes back to what I was saying where different sector departments need to come together and make sure that we are resolving this issue of housing I think one of the greatest problems that we're having is the issue of housing we seeing a lot of people living under the bridges and all of that but also at the same time we do know that there are certain buildings in our city centers that are not being used but also it's not easy it's not possible for people to access those properties. So I think also a political will within our municipal structures is also sort of like delaying the development agenda or what we need to address as South Africa is we are faced with this issue of urbanization so it's quite difficult you also see it even in the budgeting in municipal budgeting you'll see that these things are actually not budgeted for appropriately because they don't think that it's important but on the other hand they do talk about the issues of the lack of housing and the lack of access to economic opportunities so while we talk about economic opportunities I think one of them the problematic thing that we also have or we find ourselves in the city centers largely is the regulatory policies that we have so it's not easy for someone from township to come and say well I want to rent a space in the city center or I want to buy in the city center because of the regulatory things issues like rezoning I find a lot of people that they do not understand this concept of rezoning it's actually affecting people greatly so with rezoning it's basically a process of ensuring that the property that you are using it has appropriate rights for whatever use that you want to use the property for if it's for commercial purposes is that property appropriately zoned and people don't understand the processes involved in the rezoning so they'll go to the municipality and the municipality will refer them to a private consultant like myself but when they come to us they find that oh my gosh it's going to take 6 months or 12 months to actually get this thing approved and there's a lot of processes involved and then it just changes the situation all together so I think maybe information sharing will actually help people understand all those processes but also the regulatory frameworks that are in place that are placed by our government they also need to look at those kind of issues that there are certain groups that will love to participate in the economic space but they are hindered because they can't do all of these processes it's quite costly to do all of those things and then you have to get your business to actually function so there are a number of things that people are faced with in South Africa in trying to ensure that they participate in the economy they also have access to safe and secure human settlement the issues of housing it's a problem in South Africa I think those are the main things that you are faced with in South Africa and we need to try to find solutions around that Taking your questions and comments this evening as we continue that conversation about urban development in South Africa with founder and director at the Zipilele Consultancy Omen Zibutilesi on Facebook asking does urban planning involve integrating the rural areas to the connected world through technology connectivity and or electricity? Yes definitely what the government is trying to do now is to develop something that is called prison planning or local area planning and that is also it covers rural areas as well so if you look at a particular village and you see what is currently lacking in that village and you put in strategies to ensure that ICTs are accommodated agriculture whatever economic structure that will actually help and improve that rural area so the government is actually working on something to ensure that the rural areas are also accommodated through those prison planning and local area planning policies that they have in place now and I see that Christine Chaba the lucky winner this evening has commented down here below so she walks away with that 500 rands in cash and that's exactly how we like to start off on Monday winners watching tuned in and able to claim their money and of course that means tomorrow 500 rands is up for grabs in our competition remember to comment, comment, comment the more times you comment and engage the better your odds of being one of the lucky winners now you know we were speaking about the challenges and you've been highlighting the challenges when it comes to urban development in South Africa I'm interested to know then the complete opposite so do a 180 what are some of the opportunities that are there as much as our big cities are already there and some were built by not even some, they were all built by consequence of some other historical thing whether it's a natural resource like your gold or of course with Cape Town it became a port and a way that different travelers from Europe could pass by make sure that they get food and water and increasingly became a very big city, a very focal point even from a transportation perspective back then what are some of the opportunities in 2021 and beyond when you talk urban development in South Africa well I think it goes back to what I've just spoken about I think the government with these pissing planning projects and local air planning projects they're trying to create opportunities even for communities in townships communities in rural areas like I said I think some of the problematic system that we had it's the regulatory policies where you can't even use your property for instance if you are living in Umlaazi and your property is zoned residential so with the old system you can only use the property for residential properties and you can't use it for any business opportunity but now with the new policies that they're bringing in you are able to use your property to actually engage in economic activities so we're creating something that we call flexibility or flexible zones where people are able to do other things within the areas where they already reside you don't need to go to the city center so I think by redirecting certain things to our township to our rural areas you create opportunities without pushing people to the city centers you say whatever you are already will provide infrastructure we will provide an environment that is receptive to whatever business that you want to engage in I think it's basically the policies that the government is trying to put forward now that's actually creating opportunities for anyone to anyone anywhere to engage in economic opportunities and to partake in the global environment yeah and as we begin to wrap up our conversation this evening one of the things that you highlighted and that's very evident is that your urban development is very complex there are many different parts and different kinds of stakeholders when you talk about urban development in South Africa and even when we look at some of the challenges and opportunities I'm interested to find out from you we know that when we talk urban development it falls a lot within government's tables so one of those things that private sick tech can champion and be ahead alone of it could be a private public partnership but for the most part it's government because there are also policies in place and policies that must be passed and that drive what is going to happen I'm here to hear from you what you think perhaps the one thing that can be done currently within in the South African context that could sort of drastically change things for urban dwellers across the country okay that's an interesting one first thing first piece I need to urge people not to move to the city centres they must stop doing that things can still happen wherever you are so I think this thing of wanting to be in the urban areas it's really outdated now but on the other hand I really have to say that it all depends on the government policies largely as much as the private sector can come in and say yes we are here we can assist but it's the responsibility of our government to create an enabling environment for our people in South Africa to be able to engage in different types of development opportunities that are out there so I actually throw a challenge to the government to actually make sure that the opportunities are there for our people because at the end of the day when it comes to urban planning what I'm in charge of planning is the regulations or the policies that we put in place that actually on the other hand actually stop people from engaging because there are a lot of red tapes so it's basically a government issue that I don't want to lie so it's dependent on them and that's a great note to leave it at Google that we know that people are moving to the city centre not even as a function of you know but it's because this is unfortunately where a lot of economic opportunities are concentrated and sometimes from a perception perspective that more importantly that's where you're going to find economic opportunities because in semi-urban or rural areas there simply aren't those opportunities that you'd be able to take advantage of and I think if anything when you look at the migration data especially COJ I was recently looking at the COJ migration data it's scary it's one of those things that needs to keep government awake because we cannot have that many people holding a view and legitimately so but holding the view that they need to be coming to Johannesburg because that's where economic opportunities are for the most part the city is also not built from an infrastructure perspective to accommodate the population numbers that we currently have yes we can certainly build more in certain instances but the reality is we want to make sure that people don't need to come to the city to access those opportunities so the challenge goes back as you're saying to government that semi-urban areas, rural areas those areas need to they need to ensure that there are adequate economic opportunities that people can take advantage of that they can see themselves living in those spaces and can see sort of economic lifeline for themselves without needing to have to come the side and try to you know somehow get economic opportunities and I think that is a great note that we are going to leave it at when we look at the challenges and of course the opportunities and if they think people who watch the show you know entrepreneurial in nature and of course the big focus is property but being able to identify some of those opportunities in the rural area if you're from a rural area in semi-urban areas and also creating some of those opportunities for yourself because you understand that there needs to be some kind of local economy even within those respective sort of smaller cities and areas as much as possible Gogo we're going to leave it there this evening thank you so much for joining us on the show Thank you so much, thank you for having me It was a pleasure you see it was great right there was no reason to be nervous I told you that this is a family and you guys at home we're really going to welcome you with open arms and that is Gogo Soutoile who's the founder and director at Zipilele Consultancy wrapping up the Monday edition of the Private Property Council of myself, Usamantoumwa Kumaalo I'm off and I'm going to be back tomorrow evening at 7pm but it's a Monday and you can chat on the Home Shoppers show until then hoping you're staying home and staying safe