 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. So we're doing a special series of podcasts which I'm recording over Google Hangouts. So we're doing audio and video because for some unknown reason people don't want to come see me face to face right now. But there's always opportunity and the cool thing is I'm able to now podcast with people from all over the world. So we're going to get an amazing eclectic mix of people from different industries, different perspectives to share their story and tell us, you know, their thoughts and feelings on what's going on right now and all of that cool stuff. Hope you enjoy it. Please subscribe in all the usual places and enjoy. Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. Today I'm joined by Lawrence Kenbull Cook, who is the founder of PaveGen. Lawrence, how are you doing? Hey guys, really excited to be here today. Yeah, I'm doing wonderful today in being it's stuck at home. And as I guess you are too, I'm admiring your paintings in the background of our video chat. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you little hearts, love theme. You've got a nice bang, a little cactus, a little bit of a nice lamb. I've got like I've tried to make the the jungle in my house as much as I can, which is which is good. Nice coving as well in the ceiling. It's all about coving, right? You don't get coving in obviously, definitely not my one. I think we've got some decent, I've got some decent coving up there. There you go, all of that. How are you? Actually, we've turned into anonymous and analysing interior design, schematic, these powders. How are you finding working at home? Yeah, it's great. I'm loving it. I recently moved house and I'm in a very quiet part of London. You know, the world, I hear ambulances a lot and helicopters flying over my head to Kings College Hospital. But apart from that, it's quiet and I can focus and really get get a lot done at the moment. Can you see your like working style change then, like once we can go back to work? Can you see yourself working, working a bit more at home or? I think it's weird that we've all had this videoconferencing technology available for a long time, you know, Zoom's been around for a while, but people haven't really used it on mass. But now, you know, my my 70 year old mother is yoga teacher and she now runs digital yoga lessons with her 20 plus students and they're loving it. She's doing two or three Zoom conference calls a day and she's now had to do breakout rooms now. But ultimately, I think that business owners are realising that that office space isn't isn't absolutely necessary to having a successful business. So I think that we'll see people being more friendly towards working at home because, hey, if it works now, why find it working two years time? Yeah, and also office space, especially especially if you're in London is expensive. I mean, so you probably don't need a desk per person. Well, yeah, yeah, I think people have been talking about hot desks and that has been one fad that has been I think frowned upon by most people, you know, finding, you know, Gary from floor three is now sitting in the seat when you were really excited about looking through the window. But ultimately, you don't need offices and people can be as productive from home. I don't think it's forever. And I do look forward to seeing my team again in the flash. But it but it does work. And I think we'll see we'll see more, more companies doing this. Yeah, I think the key things people have some choice, because still like humans needs human contact. And it's quite depressing being at home for long stretches of time without proper human contact. Yes, we're really into the idea of we've got to improve employee mental well being and also physical well being. So we'll do things like we'll have a hang out on a Friday and we'll have drinks together, or we'll just have a check in hang out a 130 for lunch and anyone could join who wants. And I think it's really important to monitor that and check on people because it's hard. Like, hey, everyone has a bad day. Like if I watch the news too much, my day goes real bad real quick. You know, so I think it's about balancing yourself out in the right kind of way. Yeah, I'm not watching the news or reading it. A diet of negativity in the morning is definitely not good for you. Yeah, 100%. There's nothing in there that I need to know right now. It's Covid, Covid, Covid, Covid. Yeah, I think, you know, those important messages, you know, like supporting social distancing and supporting our NHS, like they're there, they run throughout on every media platform. But beyond doing and enforcing, you know, what the hard work the government's doing, I don't think there's much else to be gained from it. You know, I'm really enjoying, I'm doing a morning cycle, doing 50k every morning through central London, which is near where I live for, you know, no longer than an hour. But oh my God, it's amazing. You know, it's quiet. I don't see anyone. I don't see any cars. I've never seen this in my, you know, 30 plus years of being in London, never seen the city so quiet. And there are some special things to come of it. You can really appreciate gratitude for 50k in an hour. It's great going. I don't want to say that I've done it more than an hour because it may have run over slightly. It's quite weird. Like, hopefully when this comes out, social distancing will be removed. And I won't have the police turning up for my door saying I went out for a too long. Definitely not. But it's interesting. I'm learning a lot of, it's probably you asked him like interesting leadership, like lessons and, you know, certainly like staying in touch with the team, thinking about their health, the physical aspect as well. I'm doing, like your mum, actually, I'm doing, I do a little yoga, but I'm doing an online crossfit every day. I'm feeling stronger and fitter than ever. Yeah, I mean, imagine what you can do with with all those burpees, you know, you'll never before would you have done that, right? I'm finished with burpees. Yeah, or you'd be out late at dinner and drinks and you wouldn't maybe be out for every day. But now it's like, there's no excuses, you know, you know home. So I think it's a really good time for self development. Yeah, definitely. Because also, when you're when you're going to work, you've got the commuting time there and back, then you tend to go to a gym or you go to a yoga studio. And so balancing that in your diaries, like sometimes quite challenging if you've got others to think of partner and whatever. Now suddenly, you've got so much free extra time to do stuff with brilliant. Yeah, it's great for everyone. Right. So what's your story? How did you, how are you doing what you're doing? Well, I guess my story is we make paving slabs to generate energy. And when you walk on the floor, it converts your your weight to electrical power. But it also produces data. So we can generate insights from your footsteps. Now, we're trying to change the way people look at energy. But I guess my story is stepping back. I was, I did a placement like an internship at Eon. So one of the largest energy companies in Europe. I was working there. And they said to me, Lawrence, we'd like you to build us a streetlight powered by solar energy and powered by winds. So off I went, trying to build a solar powered streetlight. Now it was for cities. And the problem in our cities is that you don't get very good sunlight all day long because the buildings are tall. And you know, solar and wind work very well in a desert out at sea on a rooftop and not in cities. So I actually failed at Eon. Okay. And I started to hang my head in shame. I left Eon thinking, you know, I was an engineer and I thought, I've screwed up. I didn't make it work. So I am, I kept thinking about this problem of energy in cities. And I returned to Loughborough University, where I was studying industrial design and technology. And I thought, you know, what if there is a solution that is literally under our feet? What if it's all around us? So I spent a year at Loughborough building prototypes. And I was lucky to win like 5k in funding from the Royal Society of Arts. And 5k at that time was phenomenal. Like that, that's probably is the same as what we could do now with half a million. You know, we went really far. And I left uni, got lots of interest in the product and decided to launch it. I spent five years in my bedroom prototyping it in South London. And the problem was no one would invest because we didn't have any revenue. The other challenge was we hadn't got any proof points of our products. So no one would buy it because they hadn't seen it working before. So it was real chicken and egg stuff. And it was incredibly challenging. And what happened was the government looked at it and they were going to see if they could help develop it. And they said, look, we've got an expert. And the expert called me up and said, look, it will never work. Give up. I was like, oh my God. Then I had a load of VCs. And they were like, no, Lawrence, it will never work. Don't bother. And then my university tried to steal it from me and then say, give us majority of the company. And so everything was stacked against me. And, you know, I believe that entrepreneurs should be bold and confident and really take, make their own luck, essentially. So I thought, okay, I spent five years building this prototype, making it robust, engineering it super well. And I thought, well, let's go and install it somewhere. So at 2am, me and a friend installed it legally in the South Bank in London. So there's a big fence. We throw the prototype over the fence. We have cement, we have cement mixes, buckets, water, pickaxes, all the equipment we need. We dig a hole in the ground. We cement it in place. We plug it to the floor. So when you sound on the floor, simply put, one step will produce anywhere from one to 10 seconds of light. And if lots of people want to get light, right? So we installed it at South Bank, plugged into lighting, look good. And the next day on our website, we said, the future of energy is here and a picture. And Westfield Mall called me and said, hey, did you do an installation last night? And I was like, yeah, they said, did it work? I said, yeah, they didn't ask me, was it illegal or not? So that's important. And we closed a significant six digit deal off the back of that news for them. So I went from a crazy inventor in my bedroom through to someone who had to go and hire a team and make a product work. And then, you know, that was the start of it. And my journey really started from there. Amazing. Amazing. And so to Westfield gave you an order. Was that your first, your first order? Exactly. Yeah, the six digit deal was an order to be installed at the Olympic Park Westfield site. Nice. So this was what, this was after obviously after the Olympics. So what we're talking like 24. Yeah, so it was around like 2011, 2012 time. Perfect. And what did that enable you to do? So you started then you could actually build a business from that. Yeah, so we knew that although it was really exciting to have a floor that generated energy, we knew that the markets were anywhere where people walk. So you've got offices, stadium, transport hubs, these include airports, train station, schools, there's so many places you can use pavjan. We have like, I have, I have dairy farms trying to buy off me. I have horse training paddocks, so they want to use it. You know, people powered playgrounds, like the opportunity is endless, wherever people move or animals move, you can use it. So we realized, you know, key markets, you know, transport and offices and so forth and cities. So I started the company, really started developing a product now, it's one of the harshest areas in the world to engineer the floor. You've got vandalism, you've got huge temperature fluctuations, you've got massive forces going through it. And then you've also got product that needs to be to generate energy from as many people as possible. And it's generate energy from you, but also a very small child. So you've got to like calibrate it and everything. So we spend another five years almost, it feels like engineering the product to make it work. And if you, for example, I have to make the product work in minus 30 degrees centigrade, but I also have to make it work at 70 degrees centigrade, which is how hot it gets in the Middle East when the sun is on it today. So it's one of the toughest engineering challenges known to man. And that's what we've been doing now is it's in 36 countries so far. We've had over half a billion steps on a pave gen to date. And we've also been lucky enough to work with some of the largest companies in the world. And also some of the biggest or the biggest buildings projects in the world, including right now working on the biggest building project on the world today. So there's some really exciting projects that come out of it. And, you know, we've got a team in London and Cambridge and it's something that I never thought it would have got to this point. I dreamed of it, but now, you know, really is and the momentum is strong and we're bringing our new products all the time. So there's lots you can do with a kinetic energy floor. I think it's great. I mean, often you see like the biggest thing people give up just before they make it. And a lot of the time when you're starting a business, like patience is really key. And you've taken, you know, 10 years it sounds like to really like persevere, get the product, you know, get the sales, overcome all of these obstacles and full credit, you know, now it seems to be really paying off. Yeah, I think entrepreneurship got cool around. I feel like entrepreneurship got cool when everyone heard who Zuckerberg was. I'm not condemning Zuckerberg. Modern day rock stars. It was a phenomenon back in the day. And I think what we need to be really careful of is that we see so many stories about, oh, Sir and Sir built a company and one year later he had a billion dollars and there's always going to be the what's apps of this world and these amazing unicorn stories. But not everyone's very few businesses are actually like that. And it does take a lot of blood, sweat and tears. And there are amazing things that can come out of it, but they do take time. And as long as your, you know, the market has to be right and the timing, you know, whenever I work with a business now, I say, let's make sure you're on a rising tide, you know, make sure you're sitting on something that is going to have exponential growth and your life will be good. We were selling sustainable technology before sustainability was a thing. And now I always use a reference of the head of sustainability in the company was a dirty word back in the day. And they were left in a cellar next to the accountants and no one speaks to them. Apart from one day, they had a corporate report and they phoned up the sustainability person said, give me some of my corporate report. But now that person is often on the board. And hey, that person is a woman as well now, which is even better. So we're getting gender equality, sustainability, but it is all changing. But back in the day, oh my God, no one cared. And so we're really seeing a big shift in a mega trend, if you like, around connectivity, sustainability and urbanization. That's great. I mean, you've done like what most people can't do is you've developed a new product in a new industry and made it work. I mean, the other thing to mention for other entrepreneurs is you don't have to reinvent something, you know, you can just do something slightly better than someone else is doing already. And the other thing with with your market analogy, I always think it's like the line which in the wardrobe is you want to open the cupboard and walk into Narnia, not a room cupboard. It needs to be big enough that you can really attack it and make some make some good money. Yeah, but also small, small businesses and small markets and a niche can still be incredibly exciting. I mean, a really good example is a friend of mine called Michael Corn has a company called Quick Screen. And it's a dividing screen that goes into hospitals. So you pull this screen out and you have a immediate divider. This guy's been going for a similar amount of time to me and ticking along exciting business. But recently, they just delivered in every single nightingale hospital as part of the government's COVID response. They can make make shift cubicles that quick. And so like, right now is their time to shine. And I think if you're focusing on like one small area, get really good at it, know more about it than anyone else. And then at the right time, you can really start to flourish. It doesn't need to be, you know, the next Coca-Cola, and not like we're doing Coca-Cola on the show today, but as an example, you know, it doesn't need to be that. It could be something that can be, you know, as simple as an innocent smoothie, but then turns into a complete, you know, conglomerate almost in what they've done and changed the way people look at fitness and health as well. Definitely. No, definitely. So going back to your product, how does it actually generate electricity and work? So the paved gen tile, when you walk on the floor, converts your weight to electrical power. Now it does that because the downward force goes into a circular motion. So it's like a flywheel. So the downward force spins a flywheel. This flywheel spins from two to 10 seconds. And every time you stand in it, that flywheel is generating energy through magnets and electromagnetic induction. That generates power that's then stored in batteries. Now we can store that energy for several days and then use it to power lighting. So a really good example is outside the White House in Washington, DC in an area that's called the Dew Point Circle. We have 10,000 people walking a day and this powers the lights before to 10 hours, depending on how many people walked. So we get around 10,000 people on average. There will be around five hours of elimination from people walking. But we also produce data. So what I realized is, I put my first installation Heathrow Airport and I'll describe the tile to you for the listeners out there. The tile, the first tile we built was a rectangle that was green, bright green. Then we changed it to a triangle because it was much more efficient, 200 times more efficient at capturing the energy people said. The triangle. Yeah, the triangle design of the floor when you walk on it. Why is that? Well, the reason is a rectangle. If you imagine you may have a book or business card on your desk. If you stand on a rectangle and it bends, the corners are fixed. Whereas we made a mesh of triangles. So wherever you walked on the triangle would depress. It has to move. And it meant that wherever you walk, the triangle would one corner would drop down. So you don't lose any footsteps. So we put the rectangle into Heathrow and we realized that we only captured maybe half the steps because the rest were on the corners of the rectangle. And so, but what I did see is I saw kids would see the floor from 100 meters away and they ran as fast as they could to them and then jump up and down there. They didn't know what it was. They didn't know what it was. But I realized that we'd almost created the gamification of energy. And was that even a good thing? Do you want kids to be running on it? And then I saw old people saw it and would jump on it. And then I saw people outside the White House would spend their lunch break eating their sandwich, but jumping up and down all the time. And I was like, dude, what are you doing? And they're like, I'm powering my city. I'm powering my city. And the reason people really love the fact that they are doing something, it might be small, like the paper is not going to power the world. But what it does do is give people tremendous ownership. So we realized we created this magnetic thing on the floor that people really wanted to interact with. And now what we do is we generate data that allows us to do things like donate the energy of a footstep. So you can walk on the floor and then pay it forward, pay that step forward. And imagine if every time you shop and go at a moment during corona times, we're queuing outside supermarkets. Imagine if you could queue for supermarket on the floor and every step you made donated £1 to the NHS to buy PPE. And a brand like American Express would put their logo on the floor and then facilitate that donation. So we believe that we are the future of allowing people to make a difference through the power of a human step. And that's on the basis that we're working towards now. We need to get on that. We need to get on that straight away. Yeah, if anyone knows anyone of a big supermarket, we'd love to put some free pageants down and help to make a change. There'll be someone listening. There'll be someone listening. Now that's brilliant stuff. How long does it take you to install it? Well, the first page that I ever installed took me about two days to install one. And you did on your own. And I was figuring it out. And then a year later, the Paris Marathon came to me and said, Lawrence, we'd like to cover the width of the Champs-Elysees. So it's called Les Avenues Foches, the Leeds Up. I've done the Paris Marathon. Oh, have you done it? Yeah. How did you find it? Well, compared to London, the crowd isn't as friendly. But it's funny, you run in London, everyone's like, come on. And they shout your name and your names on your chest and stuff. In France, the crowd were like, hmm, I think I can do it better than you. You're not running for it. Because you've got a British name. Probably. They could just see I was English. I think I always find that whenever you have a British name, the Brits are the ones that always shout to you. Like, wherever you are in the world, the Brits see you and they're like, I'm going to have that. But I thought, you know, they could say Louis, maybe named after King Louis. But then, yeah, that changed your name to be, yeah, Louis or Pierre and you'd be fine next time. But the actual marathon was lovely. But sorry, carry on with the story. So you did, she did your, your, your child's crop. It's a cobbled street. And they said, Lawrence, how long will it take you to install it? And I was like, I'm not sure. They said, can you do it in six hours? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I can do it in six hours. So I went away, I totally freaked out. I spent a lot of time trying to work out how the hell do you install the width of a road that also has a camber, which means it's bent. And it's so I had a big curve on it. And I went away, I got the British girkers to help me. I'm ended up being we covered the entire width of the road in 55 minutes. So you can do it really quickly. So we work in two ways. One, you can install it on top of an existing floor. And then two, you can actually dig up the floor. And that's perfect on a new build. But when it's like an existing structure, it's just drop it on top. And no one knows that they've walked up a little bit. It's only about this high. So it's 10 centimeters high. So, you know, a couple of inches high. So it's very, it's quite slim. Yeah. And the best overall, it's like low cost, right? I mean, they need to install it. The electricity's free. Yeah. I mean, our business model is interesting, right? So we compare it to Tesla. Okay, so the problem with hardware is you don't get economies of scale on day one. So how we work is the product itself is expensive to manufacture. We actually we're hand making them in London. Okay, so London is renowned for low cost mass production. It's from it's renowned for other things, but not production. But we make it in the UK because we're trying to make the best possible product we can. We're developing it. I've made over 700 production prototypes so far. And are you like 3D printing them or how are you? Yes, there's some elements will be 3D printed because it's a really hard wearing environment. We'll actually do things like CNC with a five axis machine from a solid lump of aluminium or steel will be our prototypes. So it's we typically find that rapid prototype and won't be strong enough to withstand abuse on the floor. But what we'll do is we'll make it in the UK, we'll refine it, we'll make it as efficient as we can, and then we'll potentially then move the production overseas. But we would like to keep it in the UK for as long as we can. But then obviously the price point drops because my aim is although paging isn't isn't really low cost today, we aim to make it the same price as normal flooring one day, which means that you can put the floor down free. And then you can donate the energy from people walking in famous tourist spots around the world and every supermarket and every office around the world, your steps can count and make a difference. And we really believe in the data that's generated from the floor. So it will speak to the cloud, you can understand how many people are walking. And the most important thing about it is the data we get is permission based. So we're not stealing information from people. We're actually a way that you go, Hey, do you want to donate that one pound or that $1 from your footstep? Can you just tell me like roughly how old you are, please? And it's like a fair exchange of value between the consumer and the corporation. Back to your Tesla thing, like if I can drive my Tesla over my over my paving and generate my electricity to power my car, that'd be awesome. Well, yeah, so, you know, we we've actually we've done a partnership with Tesla. They gave us an early model one and we we were driving the car over the page. Now, one of them broke. I'm not going to say which one we broke, but I think Elon Musk is a bit pissed off when we returned the car to him on the car break or your or your or your comment exactly on who broke or what. Right. There was some damage. And I do like to test things to destruction. But in the future, I think that we could take our kinetic analogy. It takes the movement of people a small amount of movement. I think we could take that and we could use it in vehicle traffic. So we have the the ability to take it into roads and you could use the energy of people driving into a car park. You could use that to power the lights in the car park itself. You could use a toll booth that would be self powered from everyone driving through the toll. You could power all the street lights in certain areas of the city from the vehicles driving down a single street. So there's some amazing use cases once you can scale this technology out. Amazing. I saw you did a little one, not say little maybe, at University of Birmingham, my old uni. Yes. Yeah. So we've actually University of Birmingham, we've got an installation that charges phones as students walk past and then also powers lights as they walk past. So what like a wireless charging star. So we've actually got some benches that are right next to it. So the people at the benches can sit and chill and plug the phone in and then connect to the tiles. And it's a benefit because it's like an off-grid solution. You don't need to run hundreds of meters of cable to this like remote area in the middle of the uni. You can actually just do the power where and when it's needed to make it really easy to do. Yeah. Love that. Love that. Back to kind of we touched at the beginning, but how you like manage your time and you talked a bit about yoga and obviously running a company doing what you do. You've got a lot of stuff going on. How do you like organize yourself and organize your day? So I think that definitely there's other people out there who are going to have a 4am wake up and like a minute by minute rundown exactly how they have their schedule. I think I'm definitely more relaxed than that, but the way I like to do it, I think it's really important to do exercise in the morning to get ready for the day and move through it. I think that one thing we've got is we've got really strong management teams. So we make sure that daily like the first thing check-ins with all of the team heads. So sales and technology operations to make sure that works. And I think that the key thing to growing a business like this is you've got to spend lots of place and you've got to keep them all spinning and you can't have any wobble and they've all got to be spinning. And that might be, you know, you spend so much time developing this new product. You're really passionate around. You forgot to do any marketing around that launch or you forgot to keep your investors updated. So there's a massive challenge around how to keep those stakeholders involved. And I think a big part of what I'm doing on a daily basis is stakeholder management from we've got, you know, over 2000 investors in the business. We're backed by the richest two men in the UK according to the last rich list. So the Hadunja brothers are investors in the company. So we've got some great investors and they help us. We work with them really closely. So a lot of it is working with those guys. I'm pretty close to the sales and marketing and then oversee some of the technology aspect. So it's really a balance of all those things every day. But you've got to come at it with a really positive headspace because not every day is good. You don't go smiling every single day. It may look like from the outside, especially entrepreneurs, when they speak, everything they touch turns to gold, like no way. There's a hell of a lot of suffering behind the scenes to make something work, you know, and that's what we're really absolutely focused on is making and finessing what we're doing to make the business as ready for scale as possible. Awesome. Have you ever had a mentor? Yeah. So one of my main mentors you may know him is a guy called Will King, the founder of King of Shaves. Yeah. So the guy started like a 23 million revenue raised the company against the likes of Gillette. And he's always been like a guide for me to help you through some of the tough times. I think it's so important for entrepreneurs, especially when they're going through like a crazy journey at the beginning to have people that have been through that journey to help them. And he's pretty good for keeping me level headed when times are tough. Have you always had a mentor like that, or someone just to kind of chat to talk about like the issues and just someone that's like unconnected to the business? Yeah. So I think I'm a solo founder and the challenges of that are that it can be incredibly like lonely because you can't talk to your team like you would a fellow founder maybe who started with you. And I know a lot of really strong businesses do have a co-founder, which can sometimes be really beneficial. But I think that in the early days, no, I didn't. So that that was hard. And I went through lots of development, but the hard kind of development, the kind of, oh, I work for 20 hours straight for two weeks, and then burn out super hard. Like I just tried to do you're doing too much and just thinking that you're invincible and can work all hours. And you just really learn that isn't efficiency. Efficiency is a balance of everything and making sure that you're mentally balanced, physically balanced, and then you can perform to your 100%. Definitely. When I started my business, I actually didn't have a mentor to start with either, but I had a few other friends that started businesses around the same time. And I didn't realize it at the time, but we used to call each other every week at the end of the week, because that has your week been, what have you done. And it kind of like just holds you to account a little bit. It's really nice to just build that support network. 100%. I think the power of the tribe is something really important. So Emma Sinclair taught me that she's one of the youngest women or the youngest women to IPO in the world. And she's based in London. And she's always been like one of the elders in the entrepreneurship scene, who has always kind of taught me the power of the tribe. If I can give back 5% of my time to the community, when I need them, there'll be that 5% from them to help me. And some of the most exciting things we've done have been through other founders to founders, but it's checking in, it's supporting each other, it's making sure that everyone's kind of in this entrepreneurship hug together being looked after. Yeah, definitely. Because when you're going through it, it kind of gets all consuming. And when you step back, you realize actually everyone's going through a very similar journey, similar challenges. The sectors might be different, the industries might be different, but some of the main challenges are the same. I think a really common thing I see is if I'm like mentoring a new CEO with a really exciting business, they're literally in this trench, looking straight ahead, just 10 centimeters and focusing on this one little challenge and getting really worried about it. And I remember that. I was that guy and all I could look at that. And then you can really help till I bring them up and give them the big picture thing rather than really worrying about a voiceover for weeks for their new video when actually forget about it, move on. There's so many other things to tackle. And it's just like one example of how things can really help if you just step out of it a bit. Definitely. Sounds like you're a mentor as well. Yeah, so I work with a few companies. I've invested in a few businesses where I see a journey similar to my own and maybe like a similar kind of area that's in the kind of sustainability. Anything to do with green technology that involves building stuff, which is generally really hard and painful, is certainly a good one to get involved in. That's your gig. Could you see yourself if you went back 10 years or so doing what you're doing now? Is this what you always wanted to do or did you kind of just like, you did uni, sounds like you did engineering, and you kind of, you tried some things, some things worked, some things didn't? I think I've always been like entrepreneurial and I didn't plan to do this. I actually planned to leave university and I had lined up an internship in New York to work for like an amazing architecture firm that was designing all the street furniture in New York. And at the time that was amazing and the idea was really cool, but I guess Pavedin just started flying and I thought let's do this, like let's go and drop everything. But I think that being an entrepreneur is something that has always suited my skill set. I think I'm a designer and as a designer, design is not only a process, right? So it's very similar to building a company. You've got to be working in multiple things, building it together. I'm not an actual finance guy, but I guess I have to learn about the joys of sitting on a piano for two hours with a CFO. But I think those things can be learned and taught if you've got the right mindset to start off with. Definitely. Awesome. Thanks for joining me. Great chat. When all these supermarkets listen to this, how can they find you? So we're on Pavedin.com and also Twitter is a really good one for us. So at Lawrence KC, L-A-U-R-E-N-C-E-K-C. Yeah, tweet us. We'd love to help. We want to find a way to make a difference. So thanks so much. Really enjoyed speaking today. Pleasure. Thanks a lot for joining me. Keep up the great work. Sounds awesome. I look forward to checking in again soon.