 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the third episode of Liquid Margins. I just want to make a plug for next week's show. And that's on science and using collaborative annotation with science. So experimenting on the margins, annotating science is the title of that one. And now I would like to introduce our guests. We have Mary Clawn from UC San Diego. And Alicia Maggard from Auburn University. They actually went to college together. We just discovered at Willamette U, but they didn't know each other there. But around the same time, right? And with that, I'm going to turn it over to Nate Angel. He's our director of marketing hypothesis. So over to you, Nate. Hey, Franny, thank you so much and welcome to everybody who's here today. I see got almost 50 people filing in. That's so great to have such a great crowd. And I, I'm Nate Angel, as Franny said, and actually our little team here, Franny and Hala and I that are here from hypothesis are all in beautiful sunny Portland, Oregon, where it's not sunny today, oddly enough. But I'd like to invite our guests to say a little bit about themselves where they're calling in from sort of what their work focuses on. And let's start with Barry. Sure. Hi everybody, my name is Mary. I am an adjunct. I teach at UC San Diego and at San Diego Miramar College. And my main focus for teaching is US history and Native American history. So Native history is my kind of research focus. But as far as instruction goes, I'm all about anything. American history from the beginning to the end. Alicia. Hi, I'm Alicia Maggard. I'm calling in from Birmingham, Alabama in the sweltering south today. I'm an incoming historian at Auburn University where I'll be teaching classes on technology and military history. And then I used hypothesis last semester when I was teaching a course through Williams College in their Williams mystic program, focusing on American maritime history. So we really got some Americanists here today. And a lot of times we have my colleague Jeremy or our colleague Jeremy Dean as a kind of leading the discussion at these conversations on liquid margins. But today, we decided that since the topic was history would make more sense to have me do it because I actually have a degree in history believe it or not way back from the early middle ages when I graduated from college and then I went on to get an ABD in American civilization which even though it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. So I'm really excited to be here to talk with Mary and Alicia about this stuff. And I thought one of the ways that we might start things out was to get a kind of understanding of what kinds of readings, do you have your students do, is it, for instance, like, are there often textbooks involved with the courses that you teach or is it, are you looking at a lot of different kinds of documents that you put together I thought we'd start with Alicia. Yeah, so I'm for my course that I've run. There's kind of like two goals that I have for my students. And the first is that I want them to be responsible readers of scholarship. So they were reading journal articles, chapters from scholarly monographs, and they were annotating those. And then the second thing I wanted them to do was to start getting into primary sources. So alongside scholarship, we would have a primary source that was often related to the topic if not directly cited by the historian that we were reading alongside it. So, for example, my students narrated the narrative of the life of Moses Grandi, which is one of the antebellum slave narratives from an formerly enslaved waterman in North Carolina. How about you Mary what what kind of text do you have folks reading the same kind of thing I have them it's a mix of secondary sources so journal articles book chapters, or short. Short daily a lot like short little blog posts that kind of summarize academic articles, mixed in with a whole bunch of primary documents. And especially in my survey classes, I try to do mostly primary documents and then add in like a little bit of secondary pieces to get them to practice their analysis of the primary documents in the annotations. Yeah, and then I also have them listen to podcasts sometimes and then annotate the transcripts. So there's a whole bunch of anytime I can get them to think about history with whatever kind of source I throw it in there. Mary, what is what led you to start to use collaborative annotation. How long have you been using it what like even what got you interested in it and how did you learn about it and what made you want to bring it into your pedagogy. Yeah, so I started teaching in 2017. I, my first semester teaching I used reading quizzes. I had to get students to do the reading, which was not it just did it just, it fell really flat. I had to make the reading quizzes so I was like trying to make multiple choice questions about these sources that I just, I felt like I was missing the point of getting them to read and analyze the sources by distilling them into these multiple choice questions, folks would either like not do well or they would not take the quizzes at all. And so I decided to scrap it and I think I learned about hypothesis through a vitae article or a chronicle article somebody had linked to it. And I went and watched like all the YouTube videos and webinars you guys had and I was like this is perfect so I started using it in 2018 and it was like, just, I think it was revolutionary because I had folks reading and talking to each other about the text, where as before I could barely get them to do the read like I was trying to force them to do the reading by giving them a quiz that I would like punish them for if they got things wrong is really not what I want. That's not how I wanted to teach history at all. So this was a, it was a really great tool, and I've been using it ever since then and it's been consistently like one of my favorite aspects of the class of I've gotten really good responses from students as well who really like to see their classmates, opinions and their analysis alongside the text to when they're reading. And that really makes sense to me that like why if we want to encourage people, not only just to be more careful readers but even just to read it all. Why should we turn it into like a punishing activity, right. No, definitely not. Thank you Alicia how did you come to know hypothesis and get started using it. So compared to Mary I'm a new kid on the block and I wonder if I share an experience from some of the people watching today, which is that when we decided to move to remote learning this spring. What I could, you know, what are the best elements of my in class exercises and work that I could translate. And I was really grateful Kevin Gannon wrote about hypothesis in a piece for a J perspective so just a plug thank you a J. Thank you Kevin because like Mary that I went and I looked at it and I was like, what I've been doing and I wonder if other historians have loved response papers as much as I am that kind of weekly low stakes assignment that students would do after they'd done the reading but before they'd come to class. And for me, the annotation got the best elements of those response papers in that it asked students to read at a deeper level. It allowed them to practice low stakes writing, but then it had some other aspects of response papers that it was different and better in some ways. So, for example, I am kind of frustrated when I am the only audience for students response papers so this allowed them to practice writing to an audience of their peers. I found it to be hugely motivating for students who would want to see how other students had reacted. It was kind of it allowed them to process some of the information of reading through conversation, and then also the way that they could make it more multimedia. So the fact that I was getting YouTube links YouTube videos Wikipedia links pictures in the margins just allowed students to kind of bring that material to life in ways that they were not always I think feeling welcome to do in response papers. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting that the multimedia part comes out to because I think you know that's a, that's a, a thing that annotation can enable that is a little bit hard to do in other formats right where you're like, I mean you could include videos and in response paper, I suppose, but there's just something about naturally having it in the margin margin there. And I love what you said, we see a two about the idea of not wanting the students response papers just to go to the audience of one the teacher. Have you heard this some this idea of the renewable assignment as opposed to the disposable assignment. It's kind of a phrases that came out of David Wiley's work, you know the OER. Yeah, we are specialists, if you will. But any rates on that idea that you know to encourage students to be making works that aren't just something that the teacher is going to read and then essentially throw away after it's assessed right. It's really powerful. You know one thing that a lot of them. A lot of people that are coming into annotation sometimes struggle with this. And I wonder how you guys have if you've encountered aside deal with it is there's a kind of concern that if you have collaborative annotation open on a reading so that when a student first encounters the reading one of the things they might see is annotations from their fellow students already in place, or even maybe possibly seated by you the teacher. And that that might kind of warp or infect their reading in some way that that they're already responses there. And I'm wondering, Mary, have you encountered that issue or do you have that concern about students kind of finding things pre annotated. And if so, how do you deal with it or do you actually not see it as an issue. Yeah, I don't see it as an issue. Really, I think that I mean, there are there's an option for them and I tell this to them at the beginning that they can turn off everyone's highlights and they can minimize the window if they want to read it just as themselves. But I do feel like there is something that's really gained from reading reading the text and then, you know, because primary documents are not easy to read, even if they're short, they're not like, they're not always the most intuitive documents. So if you have like, stumbling over a line you go to the pain where all these annotations are and you see like, five other people have questions about the same thing I feel like it's, it's, it's empowering, it's useful to see what kinds of questions people are asking and then see the replies for people who are trying to figure it out. And then I also don't give them a blank document to start so for I have a practice of giving them questions to guide the reading, especially for primary documents so general questions are not like asking them to find specific things in the text but just sort of like, who is the author, you know, why do you think they're writing what's the context so they are thinking about how to answer these questions already when they're reading. So, I think some students have commented that they felt a little bit of pressure. This is that UCSD especially was like, oh, everyone else is commented and I have to sound smart and you know it's, I just sort of like try to ease there. Like there's really no pressure there's no wrong way to take to annotate the document like whatever you're doing is adding to the conversation even if no one's replying to you at least you're sort of inputting your voice. And also, I annotate to so I'm in there with them sort of replying to questions and then ask what this last, you know remote pandemic quarter semester. I would send out kind of an announcement every week sort of giving the distillation of the themes that they had drawn upon and annotations to give them just a sense of where the class was at trying to reiterate that we're in this together this is one piece of the where how we're creating a community in this online space so just you know the same way that you would want to encourage people to participate in the face to face classroom this is like where they have the chance to do that online, at least for me for my classes. I don't know I feel like I got away from your question a little bit but There's no like with annotation there's no right and wrong answer here to the discussion so yeah that was great. What about you at least have you run into that concern at all about like people encountering annotations already and causing a problem. Yeah, this would be more interesting if I disagreed with Mary but I want to emphasize some of the things that she said which is and I'll get to that question of worrying about students encountering bias but One thing that's wonderful about it as she said was that students can see different models for how to interact with the text. And I loved that I loved that I had you know I think that we all have experiences of students who are stronger at historical analysis and close reading when they walk into our classroom. And getting them to model those skills where other students could see how they had looked at a passage and how they had moved on to an argument from it. But also people who were having responses to a text as a reader like logging their emotional response in a way that you know especially as we were managing a remote classroom really could build some community and some camaraderie. You know I had students who were I thought of them as my researchers who you know every Wikipedia rabbit hole they fell down or every additional primary source they found. They could kind of show to the other students and that was as somebody who's fallen down Wikipedia holes myself that was actually really rewarding to track their progress. The question of does it bias them to see how other people have seen it doesn't limit them. I don't want to dismiss that concern but I think that assumes that students aren't already reading texts and interacting with everything that we assign in a world kind of rich with context and you know Mary makes the point that she doesn't want other students you know questions to help direct their reading to help them be more efficient and better readers and you know that's a practice that I use and I think that's one way that we're already shaping how they get to a text but I also think something she said about a face to face community like I think about the ground rules that we establish in my class at our first meetings and the kinds of rules for respectful dialogue and what I did when we started doing these annotations was kind of have that check in moment again kind of establishing what our ground rules for participation would be in what kind of belonging to our community in the margins meant for students. And I find that you know I maybe this is my personal experience but something that you learn in a social way you learn more deeply because you can connect it to people a time and a place. I'm wondering that you really disagreed with somebody in the class about one instance or maybe you felt really validated when five people responded to your did he really say that what kind of comment in the margin makes that real to you in a way that kind of trying to get through your history reading you know when you're tired at night and you don't know anyone in the class maybe doesn't make it as memorable and as enriching really powerful point that makes me feel like we should generate some disagreement here so we can all remember this conversation better. So far we've been a lot of agreement, you know, and you bring up Alicia maybe you could follow up on this. It sounds like a lot of your practices here were really shaped by the pandemic kind of coming onto the scene. And it sounds like you've found a way to use annotation to sort of enrich what's been happening for online and remote delivery. And I'm wondering, do you feel like this is something that was only useful to you in that context, or could you see also using it in in a face to face delivery Yeah, I'm so sorry for all of my colleagues because I feel like this is the answer that we know is true but we hate to admit it which is, once I was sort of forced to adapt to this I can't imagine teaching my seminars in a face to face mode without it. And I think that's for me that kind of comments about the response papers that were for me a wonderful way to get students to think through writing to get them practicing thinking, and to prepare them for discussion, you know, I, I don't think that discussion is a level playing for all my students. So the more that I can do to help them feel like they are ready to come to class with something to contribute the more I can kind of back channel with them. But also the way that my students can shape the discussion you know getting to see conversations that have already played out around a text, and knowing that then we can walk into the classroom with something that like we're kind of ready to go with. I think that's wonderful instead of, you know, and I, I loved response papers but I felt like only I had that insider information that, you know, student X and student Y vehemently disagreed. But it's sort of more fun when they can come to that conclusion and when they can then come to class ready to, to kind of back up their opinions or to know that's a point of potential disagreement. That makes sense. What about you, Mary as the has the fact that this has all been having happening in the context of the pandemic had an effect. Um, for me, I'm like hypothesis, hypothesis evangelist. I love it so much. And I've been using it for a while so I, I mean, I definitely using it in the pandemic context but I already was using it in the face to face classroom but I really like what Alicia said about having it as like another avenue for students who might not be as comfortable in a face to face class discussion, or even in a small group discussion to have some way for their voice and opinion about the, the text and the content to be to be heard. That's really what I find it as like, it's another channel for them to interact with the material that doesn't require, you know, speaking up in class if that's not their thing you know we try to do other things to get them comfortable with that but in this. It's like another, another tool in your toolbox, but I love hypothesis I will never stop. Oh, and I met we didn't actually know Mary very well when we invited on the show so we we didn't cherry pick people who were going to be so evangelistic if you will. You know, a lot of I see a lot of talk in the chat. There's a lot of questions kind of brewing that we could get to later but some of the, some of the conversation is around assessment. And so I wonder if you guys could talk a little bit about how you think about incorporating annotation into your into the assessment scheme if you think of it informative or summative ways or if it's, you really see it as a sort of something different than the kind of normal assessment that normal, you know, that normal kind of graded work that you're looking for people to do. Mary, what's your take on that. Yeah, so for me, the annotations are, I guess how I would assess that students are doing the reading. So there is no I don't go through and like critique each person's notes that they take or I don't. They're not like nitpicking their grammar or anything or even the ideas that are coming out like, as long as it's relates to the text or relates to the content of the material, they get the full points for doing it like I it's really just sort of encouraging them to check in with the classmates on a regular basis. So my guidelines for them are usually just engage with the majority of the text so for you know, upper division class where they're reading like a 30 page article. It's just being something different than if they're reading like a two page primary source, but at you know they're engaging thoughtfully with the text that's like my only guidelines and then I give them the questions that they can sort of answer if they're feeling a little at sea with what to say. But I don't ever judge or evaluate the content of their annotations, it's more about seeing where those conversations go on their own. I do kind of say to them, I don't want to see one word annotations as the bulk like I don't want to just say oh interesting question mark you know that kind of thing. Although I do find like really funny sort of one off engagements with the text like oh whoa you know that that kind of thing is funny to me and I like it if you have also, you know, paragraphs that are later. But yeah there's no it's really really low stakes as at least you said before it's not there's, I don't want it to be any pressure of like there has to be a right answer. You, it's, you know, I, it's like 20% of the grade of my class so I do treat it very seriously but it's just that the fact that you're, you're there and you're participating that's really all I care about in terms of assessment. So it's almost like a class participation level. Exactly. What about you Alicia how do you handle assessment and meditation. So, and when I use it I was doing it in a small upper level seminar, so I was able to kind of include it in a kind of larger participation grade. And like Mary I gave them some instruction on I want to see you meaningfully engage with the text and I was like, if you want an approximate word count here you go don't write essays in the margins don't make your classmates read those but show us that you've thought about this material and put it to class themes to something your other classmates have said, and I just kind of set numbers I said I want to see, you know, three substantial annotations and two meaningful responses to what somebody else has annotated. And I was like beyond that go to town, you know, I loved when I would read it and somebody would say like, they would highlight something and put a smiley face in the margin you know for me that was tracking their interaction but it wasn't graded. So, questions in the chat about how to assess this and how to use it with larger classes. This is something that I am thinking about I suspect Mary has more experience and and I will just say that her first instinct to say, you know it's kind of a checkmark or a no check mark like did you get your five points this week or not. And the last thing I'll say, before I hand it over to somebody who knows better is that I, I was able to use all of my students so I had 19 students annotating collaboratively, and it didn't feel like it got too noisy but I do wonder some of you who have much larger classes, if kind of creating even smaller communities within that class, like through groups who are kind of responding to each other. Even if that rotates throughout the semester, if that does give you a better opportunity to get kind of those meaningful multi step conversations in the margin. How about you Mary did, did you, did you encounter that issue of, you know, too many, too much noise on a document or did you break into groups or so the biggest class I've used it with is 65. And I do, I, what I do is I give them the choice of which document they want to annotate each week so there's multiple readings assigned each week. I want everyone to read everything but I was only going to give them the check if they annotated one so kind of people sort of self selected into groups that way, and it minimized the amount of people working on the same document. But I have to say I don't, it doesn't bother me to see like hundreds of annotations actually kind of like that. Because you can really see just the level of like so many different opinions at once I understood some people might find that really distracting. But I also add piece of advice instructors thinking about using that I don't read them all like that would take me hours so I sort of scan them I do the search for a question mark, make sure I get the questions I am in there annotating with them so I will, this last quarter I gave them like a time period I said I'm going to be online every Wednesday at three o'clock to four o'clock I'll be annotating the text at that time so people sort of either got on before me and posted their notes or waited until I after I posted my questions and came to respond so there was engagement with me there but I didn't worry about reading every school person's annotation. But one thing I don't know I just I love the. I don't mind seeing the hundreds in the annotations why that might just be me when I first did it. I got an email from Jeremy, because it was like very early on in this whole process and he said, your students broke the record for the amount of annotations on one document and I was like, you don't understand what this means like I had a diversity and equity and inclusion requirement class that a whole bunch of people take to satisfy. And there's mostly staff majors, it's like one of those classes where you're like, come on guys history is cool and they're all like, okay, like let's go off to my engineering class. And I have like 300 annotations about a document about the Pueblo revolt of 1680 it was like, I mean it was great for me I love to see engagement so, but I'm in terms of like getting it to be more manageable yeah you can I setting it up as a group assignment and getting them to sort of self select and sort of annotating the document of their choice would work. But you can go either way to you can just have it be a free for all like the and go for it. That makes sense and I'll just there's I see there's some chat in the in the margin here of this call about, you know, how hypothesis might work and this or that context and so forth and I just want to say we're not going to address any of the technical aspects of hypothesis on these shows there's a lot of other ways to engage with us and Franny can put in a link to our help center. And there's all sorts of ways to start conversations with the hypothesis team, but we're really trying to focus in on kind of the pedagogy and people's experience you know educators like, like Mary and Alicia so you know I've been asking you guys a bunch of questions and I'm wondering before we we shift over to total q&a mode although we've already been addressing them them. Do you have any kind of questions about hypothesis or or dreams or things that you wanted to kind of bring to the table that we haven't addressed. Stop them in their tracks about thinking. I have, well, I'm just going to say something. I am to have to mine because I use canvas now at both my institutions hypothesis integrates really really well with canvas, which I love because you can, you know, beat it into the speed grader and you can set up your group assignments and all that stuff and you can see everybody just they don't have to leave the LMS. There's one thing I really did like about when I was using it. Without the LMS before the app where I just had them download the extension and then annotate the PDFs and their browser or the links to the articles is that I would set up a group for my class but most people would forget about the group and they would just go to the public, which I actually really love because they would be annotating alongside you know some of these things were from like regular online primary sources that other history professors were using so they would be annotating alongside students and wherever other place and I just thought that was kind of cool so this is not at all a question is just me talking but I think I'm going to try to do this in a more meaningful or intentional way, maybe this coming semester is to try to get them to engage with a wider audience and some in some way so if anybody has any ideas about that yeah that's a that's a really interesting point Mary and as I know that even our CEO and founder Dan Whaley is in the audience here answering questions in the chat. And there is a difference between the way hypothesis works in the LMS integrated environment versus out on the in the kind of with the individual account out on the wild web as we say sometimes. And some of that is this difference between having some scaffolding around privacy and ease of use with single sign on in the LMS and then you know wanting people to maybe move toward a more kind of public discourse like you're suggesting Mary so there is there are both those possibilities and they're both sort of interesting. At least did you have anything you wanted to like voice that we haven't touched on and I suppose my one like wish list item for hypothesis would be a way to select a non text piece on the page. So if you've used hypothesis you know that there are page notes so you can signal a note that is not an annotation that is not tied to a specific piece of text. But I found that in assigning some primary sources with some visual elements that students who were kind of showcasing their visual analysis I was like oh if I could get them to kind of annotate pieces on a map in a way something that was it text based. I just saw so much more potential for my students who were kind of eager to showcase those skills. Yeah that we are just so you know there's obviously you know hypothesis is focused on anchoring annotations and text up till now. But there's you know we we know that there's a need to also be able to annotate other forms of media like to marquee and images or maybe you have a PDF where the text isn't even selectable yet or something like that. And then obviously there's the question of video annotation. I mean there's all sorts of things so you know our roadmap does include does include the idea of working towards those things but we're still texts has been complicated enough to get into the world and so we've been focused on that up till now. Thanks for that. So we've had a whole bunch of conversation and questions going on and the Q&A and chat and I'm just going to ask Franny. Do you want to surface one that we haven't already kind of addressed. Yeah, I mean there might be a couple that we haven't addressed. So I'm going to take the last one that came up because it's timely and interesting. So I guess this is to both guests have you ever had to backtrack a conversation where students misread something in a way that was racist or sexist. Yeah, I have. Yeah, so this past quarter I taught a class called citizenship and civil rights in the 20th century. It's like the most timely class for all the stuff that went on at the end of May and June. Awesome. It wasn't. It was just a little aggressive the comments that were being made and I did. Luckily it was it happened in a way that I was like, I was really present in my annotations in that class like I was there weekly and engaging with them and so I was able to. I didn't remove it but I sort of publicly stated my sort of counterpoint and sort of probed this person's question a little bit further gave them like a link to a different thing and then they responded so thanks I didn't realize that so I think it came across as more aggressive and he actually intended it to but Yeah, I had to sort of intervene either in the annotations or then in my sort of messages to the class about this is the general theme of the class here's an interesting debate that occurred but we want to make sure that we you know and sort of remind them of the rules of discrimination but overall not so much. I mean I think that as a majority was like the majority of cases, everyone is very respectful and even if they're disagreeing there. Disagreeing in a respectful way and it's not I don't, it's not like I'm not scared of that usually happening with us. Okay, thank you. Have you had that experience at all. I have in kind of, you know, miss reading in ways that you know their annotation is not where I would want the conversation to end. But also to echo Mary what's, you know, I'm in there annotating and I found that by the time I saw those other students had been into respond in kind of respectful engaging ways to suggest, you know that that was not. Maybe the full takeaway there. And then sometimes I come in to kind of emphasize that correction but often I find that my students are teaching each other. I haven't had any disrespectful. Well, one time I had disrespectful language in the margins but it was me. My students were reading letters. Anyway, they were letters from a 19th century married couple and they were doing the most wonderful analysis trying to understand the husband's actions in terms of like the context of the time marriage and masculinity and you know I got to have a really organic moment with them where I just came through with the last question and said, These are all really great points. I just think he's a dick. And I, I thought that those kind of moments that you can have in the margins with your students, you know, later in the semester when you know them was a great way to kind of, you know, to kind of have some levity and to show the different ways that you can read a text and that it doesn't always have to be dry and scholastic so one one flavor and offense and it was just me. It happens to all of us. There was one more question in the chat that I, I don't know if you covered it or not forgive me if you did but do you point students to particular sections of a text with any annotations of your own to kind of, you know, seed a discussion of a particular section. And can either one of you just jump in. Yeah, I do, especially if it's a like a secondary source so especially if it's a longer article where I want them to maybe focus on one particular aspect of the reading that I think really reiterates the points that we've engaged within our other content. I but you know, they're free to annotate wherever but I would ask like a pointed question where I'm highlighting a specific phrase and say what do you all think about this quote does it make you think of this you know that kind of thing. Otherwise I do just post more questions that apply to the whole document, especially if it's a primary source or particular sections are like what do you think about that and paragraph seven like it's a it's a mix. So I do give them some scaffolding, I guess, in terms of their annotations I don't just sort of put up the blank document and let them go. I've done it both ways. So sometimes I do what I think of as seeding the document where I'll leave kind of open ended questions to help students who maybe don't know exactly how to get into a text if they see, you know, if they see my name as the instructor in the margins by a question mark that's a place that they know that that they can have some buy in. And sometimes I'll point things out so I taught a published slave narrative and I could just highlight the title page and show them that it was published in London, that it was published for a certain reason. And even though students didn't respond to that annotation I found as they were going through the text having seen my annotation when they first visited the document that was shaping their reading in the back of their minds. And then so sometimes seeding it in advance and then I don't know Mary if you've done this but I did the staggered deadline where you had to annotate at one point and then 24 hours check back in and give more annotation so that you had to have a chance to see maybe other people's comments who weren't there if you were an early bird. And so I would often come in and plan my kind of weekly login to look at annotations to coincide with that change between the first and the second deadline. And I could kind of highlight certain conversations play the role of moderator to say, you know, oh, you know another student made a similar point on page seven, you know it sounds like you guys have a lot to say on this question. I just had a sort of a follow up question for you Alicia like so when you're doing something like annotating the title of a piece or where it was published. Is that in an attempt to show them, you know that you can annotate things that are maybe outside of the main text, just to give them flavor. Yeah, so it was a great moment for me like as a historian I want my students to be interacting with the content of the text, but also kind of thinking in more meta ways about it as a primary source so thinking about the context of its creation and getting to highlight something that students might not see as like a key part of the, you know, the body of the text was great for me. And it makes them start to think about, you know, questions that I hope we get our all of our history students to think about like why do we have this primary source and not others you know why did they write about it in this way for what audience and for me. That's something that I've been able to do kind of like through long teasing it out in discussion, but getting to put that annotation right before their eyes when they sat down to read it, I found that then they were highlighting parts of the text that were making them think about the context of why it was written for whom in what broader context so yeah that was a, that was like a good moment where I was glad that I had been able to get in and kind of shape how they saw it. Great. Thanks. There's one more question and then I think we're really running out of time. So we'll have to wrap up. But so this question have panelists as students to indicate places where they're confused. What's the screw up or don't follow the logic or effective implications of the text. And if so, the fellow students then reply to them. Yeah, yeah. So that's one of my sort of guidelines for students to say, but they're confused about what to what is going to go in my nose but it's going to learn my annotations one of the options is if you were confused ask a question. And then the other thing is if you're if you see a question you can reply to it. So, yeah, I do encourage them to do that. And then one thing I am going to be more explicit about going forward is that when somebody has already highlighted a piece of the text rather than somebody else highlighting the same text and adding their annotation and then encourage them to just reply to the original highlighter so that you're encouraging them to to build up that that comfort level with talking to each other about these things so that they are really. Yeah, they're using each other as a resource that way. But yeah, definitely ask questions. Yeah, it's definitely great when somebody, you know, will put a question on something that they don't understand, maybe it's a reference or maybe it's just a move in a scholarly argument that they're not following, and to get to watch their classmates or that's another place where I come in although usually especially questions of fact students will answer and it's really rewarding when they are discussing analysis like I'm not sure, you know how they're making this point or what the broader significance is and that's when you get to the best conversations is when a student's kind of brave enough to put that question there. So those are actually some of my favorite annotations they often lead to the best kind of notes in the margin for our collective notes. That's like turning the conversation over to the students. So that's great. Anyway, we are at 945 so unfortunately we're out of time. This was such a great show. I want to thank our guests, and I want to thank Nate, and I want to thank everyone who RSVP for the show and turned up here today.