 Yeah, so thanks for taking the time to come on the show today as well. I know you're super busy moving back and forth as well Oh, no, it's an honor. Thank you. When when you're splitting time between those two things Do you have to fly from Hawaii a bunch on business or do you try to set it up so that you're in the US? When you have to do all the US stuff and then when you're in Hawaii, you can actually have a life You know, you you would think that After 22 years of doing it that I would but the reality is because you know, you know This is being a self-employed freelance person that Things arise so what we do is we just base out of each place and then travel accordingly I mean, there've been times where and again, you know, it's all how you look at it So I always go well, this is an opportunity But I've gone to New York from Hawaii sort of three times in five weeks because they were spontaneous great jobs that you go Yeah So it's it's the nature of the beast and and I always kind of looked at it like Well, you set it up this way and this is part of why you're not doing a nine-to-five job And so this is the other side of that just and it's a great thing. Yeah, I suppose it's it comes with the territory It's it's a bummer to fly from Hawaii to New York, which what is that like in 14 hours or something It just seems so far. Yeah, well going when you have the tailwind from Hawaii to New York It's it's probably only about 10 10 or 11 and then coming back. It's a little bit longer but again, I just sort of look at the opposite which is for me personally, I like being self-employed and being an independent contractor and You just have to be willing to do what it takes to do that Yeah, and it sure beats going to an office and sitting in air conditioning and and all that stuff for the for every day That would probably that seems like the opposite of what you would be able to do I mean looking knowing What what I do about you and stuff like that knowing how active you guys are sitting all day and at a desk would literally kill you I think Yeah, I think it would be you know, there's people who sort of say hey listen. I love to have it I love the window of okay. I work from this hour to this hour. I leave it at the office I go home and then that's it I mean, you know this from the job that you do The job is sort of all the time because it's also part of who you are but I like the movement and the freedom and the a little bit of the Unpredictability of what we do certainly more than that sort of locked and loaded Monday through Friday deal. What is it with about unpredictability that you actually like because I've I've heard that a lot from people and similar active kind of Gigs pro athletes and things like that. They love the routine of training in some way But there's also this element of excitement that comes from oh, we're gonna do this city and we're gonna do that And they don't seem to outgrow it I mean you're you're a mom now. You're married now. You still like that Yeah, I think you know for me it's a good point of I need a certain amount of linear activity a Consistency in my training and my food to kind of keep me tethered to something But then beyond that you sort of feel like it's maybe what you liked about competition and training is it's a little bit unknown And so to put yourself in an unknown situation on a regular basis feels good because you feel like you're sort of testing yourself You're having an opportunity to rise to an occasion Maybe it's a little bit Uncomfortable or scary so that that feels good because it I think I feel like that's how you continue to get to know who you are And so I like it and it's it's an adventure and and quite frankly You don't want things to always be the same because then you never grow You're not learning new stuff. You're not challenging yourself in a new way And I think that that sort of is an essence of life It's something I read in your book was life has lived outside your comfort zone and that's a very popular I hate the word meme because it sounds degrading but I guess it is kind of a mean or motto of people and especially in your position just constant improvement constantly trying to make yourself uncomfortable and grow and I think that's admirable I think that's what separates a lot of people who are successful in areas like you are versus people who just kind of are dreamers or wannabes and I also read that you only feel like working out or training 50% of the time which is really I was surprised by that being a pro athlete and You know your model or you still are Only feel like training half the time that sounds like me Well, listen, I think so let's be honest. I think that's most people every once in a while. I've met athletes or people Now let's be clear about something. First of all, I believe in all of us. Most of us were athletes, right? There's some who kind of express it more and others But every once in a while you meet a person and they can be an attorney, but they're an athlete and they are You know, they wake up and they're driven and it's a loop. You know, they sort of that's what they are doing But I believe that most of us probably feel like training if you're lucky 50% of the time So I I always don't want to sell a bill of goods to people like. Oh, I'm just so inspired every day and you know to go and and Do it and be tormented I'd rather be sitting down or I'd rather lay in bed for an extra, you know 30 minutes or whatever that is and Because I think that's the important part of the message is it's just about creating that system and that infrastructure for success It's not about feeling like you want to all the time That's important to realize I think for a lot of people who are not even just with working out or athletics I think a lot of people think well, this isn't the job or career for me because I'm not 100% of the time I'm not waking up motivated to attack the day or oh, this isn't the sport for me or this workout's not gonna work for me because I often don't feel like going and when we read articles in Maxim or self magazine or side of the glosses you fall on the articles that have a lot of times people that That have careers similar to yours It's always like they're sitting on the beach in the sun and the sunrise and it's just like every day is in Inspiration and you just think oh crap I can never be like Gabby Reese because I don't feel like that at all. I wake up with oatmeal stuck to my chin You know, this is not how am I my life is I'll share something with you like my I had a knee replacement last year And my knee has probably been hurting me for upwards to 14 or 15 years prior to the surgery, right? And even now to this day, it's not functioning really the way I would like it to I mean it's great It was a great surgery and it's great and there is frustration and insecurity and All kinds of emotions around this and I deal with it every day But then so I guess what I'm saying is we all have these kind of self whether they're Self-inflicted obstacles or ones brought on by life that we are contending with and It's kind of like how you look at it So I can go I could dive deep down that hole and be poor me and my knees not bending And it's not straightening the way I wanted to and if steps are too high I'm weird and feel awkward and all these things or I can say but I'm not I don't have a major illness the rest of my body is working very well And so I'm gonna work around it And I'm gonna acknowledge that some days I feel crappy and I feel Vulnerable and not my best self But I'm gonna work around it and I and I really believe that that is life, you know You know like I guess maybe like I was a Buddhist that the pain and the good and the bad It's all part of the same story Yeah, I think it's important to realize that because a lot of times we're bombarded with this inspirational material that says You should feel good all the time. You should feel motivated all the time You should feel even though you have this setback it now. It's your strength and it's like no It's not a strength. It's a broken knee and it sucks, but it's I'm still able to persevere and push through that Yeah, and I think everybody has that because you know, sometimes people say to me wow I you know, I can't believe all that you you know You juggle and you get done and and I say, okay, let's be really clear about something first of all I'm wildly incentivized right like I if I work I I probably get paid very well for what I do There's there's rewards. There's attention. There's all these things, right? I say you want to talk to me about somebody who's juggling a lot How about somebody who let's take a single parent, for example, who's working three jobs just to keep the lights on? Like that's the real stuff and for me. I think it's about keeping perspective on What we're reacting to so oh, you know, when you know, Larry calls it the wambulance. It's like oh my you know My knee is sore. It's like yeah big F and deal like you you know what I mean Like it's keeping everything in its perspective and in its place because then emotionally You're sort of a you're reacting to it kind of accordingly because when I see what other people go through I'm like man. I have got nothing. I'm not do like I'm not doing anything. I haven't done anything So I think it's for me. I kind of look at it that way and I've said this many times, you know We have low cards and high cards. It's like which cards do you want to play in your hand? Do you want to cry that you have low cards? You want to play your high cards and get on with it by low cards and high cards You just mean that everyone gets dealt the hands and it just depends on which choices you're going to make that day Especially when it comes to the mood that you're in or how you react to events Well, that's it and you know, it's like when I was younger. I had my mom left for a few years My dad died. I had some pretty wonky stuff happening But yet I was six foot three at 15 and had a certain look that those were some high cards That if I navigated those correctly, they helped me Overcome the low cards and and I think people a lot of times are always Retelling an old story. I have to be mindful of that too and going well, this happened to me and that happened to me It's like it did but is there not something else in your story that that could feasibly help you move on from that and even Appreciate some of that stuff and granted listen I'm not suggesting there aren't things that people go through that it's it's almost virtually impossible to get over I'm not saying that but I'm saying most of us walking around. It's like low cards and high cards, you know, like there's all these beauty Jingles, you know accentuate the positive eliminate the negative, you know, it's all this stuff It's kind of that silliness, but it's very true Yeah, I think it's it's I'm not a huge fan of Instagram memes that make people feel inferior or you know Attempts of being inspiring, but it there is some truth to the fact that you can make choices With whatever you've got and that a lot of times those same situations do make you stronger in one way even if they are Objectively not positive things. Well, I'll again. I use my knee I have tried more exercises and therapies and turmeric drinks than you can imagine and it's why because I have an obstacle if everything was cool, I just go on as usual and Because of this this is a teacher that's making me stretch and learn more and understand about other things that I probably wouldn't have because I'm Inherently would be lazy and it wasn't necessary. So I I agree with you and and I think My hope is like I'm always want to talk about it in a very blue-collar matter of fact way like I don't want to have my head in the clouds I want to be Positive but still and sort of in that like, you know, very everyday way because When people talk to me like that that I can I can connect with that when they go Oh, you know, the spirit above and the sun is shining. I just go. Yeah, I don't I don't know about that So it's like trying to find that real Matter of fact communication, but yes being positive. Yeah, where did you learn a lot of it the matter of facts? I mean, you grew up. Where did you grow up? You grew up? Trinidad No, my father's from Trinidad. So that's very good. But close I mean, I grew up in the in the West Indies, but I did live in Long Island, New York for five years When I lived with friends of my mother I was raised by my aunt or uncle Joe and and let me tell you my uncle Joe was like a construction worker work for the sanitation department in New York and and You know, my aunt or I used to say like kid, you know Go away. Don't go angry. But just go away. Like they're very direct New York People and then in the in the Caribbean when you grow up on an island, it's it is different than the mainland us. It's um, I Don't know. It's it's kind of like I see it when I live in Hawaii there is a sort of a directness and a shorthand and and And I'm glad but I think I learned it definitely from from those two places and and it was also something that maybe Because that's the way I could hear things maybe that that's the way I tried to communicate more sure sure and sports and sports Listen, let's call it for what it is starting at 15. I got really involved with sports Coaches don't fluff it up and go on and on they go get it done get to the line get your arm up get it together You know, you can do it. Let's go. So I think that also That shorthand got developed. Did you I read that you didn't begin sports until 11th grade and you said age 15 So that kind of checks out. How come you didn't get into sports sooner? I mean, I weren't used six foot something when you were like 12 Yeah, I was six feet at 12 and six three at 15 But I again because I grew up in the Caribbean. I dabbled a little bit in volleyball My 10th grade year But organized sports back then You know on st. Thomas it wasn't like, oh, you know, you could do something with this I think I was already dealing with some of my Frustrations as a as already that tumultuous time in my life, but also some of my history Was kind of aggravated So I started a little bit and then when I moved to Florida my junior year of high school Which things were more organized athletics was sort of a real part of the The culture and the school and things like that And I walked in at 15 at six three. They were like, oh, you're playing volleyball basketball So that's kind of how it happened. You said you were aggravated when you were a kid What was going on on the island at that point? You know, I I just had I didn't have a lot of stability and I think I was truly hurt From my Situation with my mother. I was I was hurt my feelings were probably hurt and I probably hadn't gotten over it yet You know, she she did the best she could and at you know, two and a half years old She needed to take a she worked and left me with these people who raised me as their own child till I was seven And then the problem was is that then she decided she was ready So then I got the extraction from that stable environment and that was very difficult And I think I I carried that with me for For a while, but it was the best thing that ever happened Because first of all, I I I understood Like fast forward in a weird way my husband. I have a stepdaughter She was a very small baby when I met my husband and I never thought for one second like Hey, I can be her mom because she has a great mom But I knew I could be impactful Because I had experienced it with my aunt like if I just love her That can be powerful. Um, so I got that gift. I got um being very resourceful independent organized Because a lot of the people around me were not so there was a lot of great stuff that came out of it But at that time I was and then I was pissed because we moved from my home In the Caribbean To florida, which was really a very significant and important move that really changed the trajectory trajectory of my whole life But at the 15 years of age, you know, I'm leaving my boyfriend and my friends, right? Right. Yeah, and that's what that was of primary concern at that point for sure Yeah, were there any special social skills that are required growing up on an island? And then how did those change when you got to the mainland us and you're like Not only do I have to move and make new friends. I've got to figure out how people do things here again Yeah, well, and I'll take it a notch up from there. So I came from a really loosey goosey west indian culture you know, I always say that if A lot of the parents if they weren't from there, why were they there? It's like all of our parents were in some level kind of lunatics They were all, you know, it was carnival your parents would kind of disappear for two three days So, you know, you had that element too I'm when I moved to florida my mother put me in a very very conservative christian school So not only was I switching cultures Then I was switching an entire kind of Way of living and what is what was you know, I was never taught about what how important it was what people thought You know when you that wasn't the thinking where I grew up And then when you go to a very conservative christian environment the length of your skirt also is part of the conversation, right? So, I mean it was radically different and again Really, it was important. I needed sort of another part of the Scale I needed to balance it out a little bit more and I got that but the adjustment was brutal I mean one the principal let me in the school and I had no formal religious kind of You know training or part of my life was it just wasn't a part of how I grew up and then He he actually ended up being a really important person Mr. Greener But he let me in the school But the joke was I was the only quote unsaved person in the high school Wow try that. Yeah, and I'm six and I'm six three. I have Blonde hair. I probably swear like a sailor at a christian school. So it was It was really funny but then there I met very good people and I understood that people could live a sort of a You know, there's all elements of religion for me but then you go and certain people that have faith and It makes them more loving and less judgmental And they they have great families and all the sort of the great parts of that And I got to witness that and understand that oh that you know, that's out there too So it was great and I had incredible coaches that took time and invested in me as a person and Again, it really changed I went from there to getting scholarships and going to college and playing ball and going on from there And I think clearly if I hadn't gone there and had those people impact to me I I wouldn't I would have never pulled it You think you would have gone downhill just staying in that other environment? Yeah, I probably would have had a kid by 19, you know if You know working a gift shop because you don't understand what a big world It is sometimes when you live on an island and what is possible and how do you express yourself In those other ways you don't you're not really taught that and I I think It's important to have some of that but then conversely I think it's dangerous to have kids be too stacked up and too scheduled and too Performance oriented when they're young. So it's like just finding that middle ground saying it's like with my kids I'm like listen be grounded. That's why I love living in Hawaii And come from that grounded place and that place of respect, you know anti and uncle culture But you know what you can be anything you want. It's a big world So I think it for me that that I would have definitely probably stayed in st. Thomas and And just kind of lived that life How do you pass these skills down to your kids besides just living in Hawaii? I mean, are you passing down athletic skills as well work ethic because you work really hard? Yeah, I mean my husband and I both are by nature. I think we you know, we're sort of grinders But I it's an interesting thing man when it's your own kids. They I always say they don't They don't really listen to you. They really watch you And you can't really tell them you can try to instill the values Um and and tell them to what's important to you so honesty and hard work and and respecting others and respecting yourself But then the communication is Now we want to encourage you to figure out what does turn you on and what excites you and what do you think you want to do But you still have to hit those fundamentals, but I have no manual Ultimately my kids probably listen to me, you know, seven percent of the time. I'm not sure and Then, you know, you surround them with other people that can have these influences because we're limited, right? We're we we only know so much But then maybe you've got these other people that they give them a little bit of this and a little bit of that And you hope that the impact You know helps them navigate their own life and I tell my girls all the time. Listen, I'm not here to control you I'm trying to teach you to control yourself you know and and get you to do things that are good and right for you and for your whole life but There's it is the hardest thing in the world to do You mentioned in your book that becoming a mother's like flipping a switch and you become someone else and it finally Parenting finally pushes you to grow up. What has it done to you? I mean, how have you grown up as a result of of having kids? Well, it's a deconstruction first of all I was much smarter and knew a lot more about what was going on at 21 now at 47 I'm like, holy, I don't know anything and it brings you to your knees in a way that nothing else does and you surrender and at times like for example, you want to React how you feel you really it's important to react To what is right and those things can be sometimes conflicted So sometimes maybe I want an impulse and I just want to tell everyone to f off and throw shit and like freak out and and Or whatever it is But in that moment, you've got to really be disciplined and go What is the right thing to do right here and right now and sometimes You can be honest with yourself and say I have no clue. So I'm going to do the best I can um, but it really it deconstructs you in a way that You know, nothing else I've ever done has not even sports and um, it makes you also have to really confront the fact that You're going to get it wrong a lot of the time and that is a hard pill to swallow because You it's so important and you're so passionate about doing it, right? And there's just no chance. It just isn't Do you still take your younger kids on the road with you for work? I know you used to do that Yeah, I do if it's you know, especially if it's a little bit longer like more than two or three days And it's it it makes sense. Um, I'll take them But Larry and I kind of have a thing where if one of us has to go the other one's usually at home And if it's something where he and I are going together then we really try to make sure that they come with us because for me I that is my most important job and being away from them for an extended period of time doesn't feel natural and And I will say this we have the luxury to say, okay, we're going to take the girls But you know, there's days where I'm like, oh my god, I just should have left them, you know because they because it's You know kids don't do what you want them to do. So, you know, but that's the great thing It's because it's it's more honest. It's like listen, you're not in control really. I'm here in my life. I'm all scheduled up It's all written down. It's all perfect. I'm not really in control. I like to pretend I'm in control So the kids are they remind you every single day like zero control I laugh I said this one time I was paddling on the river. I go I realize I have power Like I can say no to things I can move them from one side to the next But I have no control and that is a really interesting thing But yeah, we bring them because it's my family and you know, they're going to move out our 21 year old is in college and You know, they get on with their life. So this is the time Yeah, you can't just you can't pause their life while you're busy doing your thing That's right. This is my time. Yeah, this is your time to mother them and you can't choose How that's going to happen give it well, you can I guess but you chose to have it happen well alongside your career So you can either just not be around or you can say hey look get in the van or the plane or whatever Yeah, and it's and listen, it's I call it the shit show, you know and ask any woman that takes your kids It's like you're putting on this hat and you're trying to be all together and do your career and your work and then you know, you're side jaw clenching whispering to your kid like You know be quiet, you know or whatever it is like it's just but it's sort of beautiful because it's so chaotic And it's so honest and it keeps you from thinking like you're so together that It that part is it's kind of it's so human But yeah, because I personally, you know Laird always jokes like he's like you should have seen gavi's car before she had kids Like it was always clean and everything was organized and you know, that goes out the window Yeah, now it's full of like wrappers for meal bars and little toys Yeah, and I'm like do we have to have the socks from tennis in the car for like a week? I mean can somebody not pick? I mean and it's the same conversations over and over right? It's all that so Again as much I go, you know, I call it the rack focus, right? It's in and out You're always doing that in your life. Hopefully you're looking above yourself and watching yourself and going Whoa, how are you navigating that and then sometimes you're in it and you're just freaking out But it's it's doing that rack focusing and and trying to go this is this is that that important No, it's not that important No, this is really important and also laughing at yourself because sometimes you're just running around like a Almost like a lunatic and you go look at you. You're kind of a lunatic. Yeah Yeah, it must be hard to separate yourself from that and mention it It sounds like you've got some skills from sports business that are helping you with your family life you mentioned Looking at different externally looking at your situation Yeah, I think that's listen if I could if I could say to people Sometimes the biggest gift is to back up and or go up and look over Because then it gives you that perspective, you know, uh, neal and I were just talking about this like it's not about us You know, like sometimes like you're going through the day and especially women, right? We hitting we're taking everything personal and sometimes if you just back up a little and go, you know what? Yo, that's not about me and and even like my problems like whatever problems I think I really have if I just back up a little And and go it's not really a problem. It's fine. You know, it's it's not that big of a deal So I'm very thankful for that trait. I think it is definitely probably helped my marriage a great deal We're staying married It's helped me keep my sense of humor and And I and hopefully helps me save a lot of time on, you know wasting energy and time on things that it ultimately it's like Who cares how often do you do things for yourself that are not wife slash mother related? You know, my training has always been for me, you know, obviously it was part of my job but now I look at my training is like the biggest gift and selfish thing I do for myself and and um And again, not in a corny way, but it's like, yo, this is just for me The person not even the woman like just this human that's like getting to express This part and and doing something that I know no matter what whether I do it for 10 minutes or 90 minutes It's something really good for me And and so what used to be my job is also now become the thing that when I get that done, I'm like, okay I'm good Well, I heard that when you are giving birth oan wilson called and wanted some chili and wanted to hang out with layered and so Oh, no, no, no, no, it's better than that so So I was uh, it was my third daughter and and uh, it was january 1st And so, you know, you think I'm like nobody goes into labor on january 1st It's probably not real but whatever so layered went we were still living on mali at the time and so oan This is the premise of it though His brother luke who's quite lovely had been maybe a couple months prior had done some activities with layered So I think in brotherly competition. He kind of bragged to oan. So when oan came to mali, he spends a lot of time there He calls the house. He's like, hey abby, it's oan wilson Is layered there and I was like, no, actually he's in the you know at the beach at hukipa Whatever and he goes, I want to get into it. And what are y'all doing later? And I was like, well, I think I'm actually having a Baby, I'm in labor right now, but it was still mellow. You know, it hadn't kicked up yet So I said, but you're welcome to go try and find him. Let's say it was like nine or ten in the morning Well, lo and behold, like it, you know, two o'clock or whatever layered in him drive up He follows layered to our house the mali Then layered he's like, are you good and and what I did is because I knew I was going to labor I made a big giant pot of chili And gluten-free cornbread and all this stuff because I thought, okay at least him and rice my middle will have some food And they'll be good And they're like, well, I'm going to show them drive him out to the point and show him piaji, which is a wave known as jaws And they come back and now I'm starting to ramp up. Now my contractions are getting closer together. The chili's cooked They come in and I say to layered, okay, you know, I think it's happening and Then and oh, it's like I'm starving and I go, well, I have chili here And so then he's like asking me about sour cream and my friend had flown in gen to take care of my daughter and layered When I was in having the baby and she's a volleyball player and a strong girl and she was getting she's like I'm gonna punch him out and I was like take it easy And you know, I'm literally in labor like if you've ever seen a girl in labor It's like, okay one second and then you sort of have your little mini shock and then you're like, okay What was that question? You know, and so yeah, so Owen was there. Yeah, it was funny And he's like you're you're between contractions and he's like, where's the sour cream? Do you have sour cream? Where's the fridge? If I could if I was exaggerating it wouldn't be as funny, but actually I'm I'm dead serious um That's probably why he's good at his job, you know, why what do you mean? Because I'm like these actors man. They're it's they're clueless And I'm joking, but it's like they sort of live in their mind and in their world And I have a few friends that do that craft and they're not quite like that But part of them that's what's sort of magical about them But you're like, how is it over there? You know as I'm like bent over in the kitchen And I yeah, it was pretty funny. It was actually uh, I mean Listen at least on the way of the hospital. I'm like, wow, okay Yeah, no I mean, you're obviously really tough, especially when it comes to that sort of thing You're the first female athlete to have her own shoe Which I try to look at online But when I when I go with gabriel reich nike shoe all I found was like 8 000 pictures of you and a sports bra Or playing volleyball or something like that I was really fortunate, you know, but I always say that's like timing, you know and uh And the other side of that that was really cool Was they tinker hatfield was the designer of my shoe and so for anyone who's a sort of sneaker head if you will Tinker was really the responsible person for the air jordan's and that brand for a really long time and He's just a very talented guy. So, you know That's the success of that shoe was really also the fact that tinker designed the shoe Obviously, so we did a few seasons and the shoe did very very well and I was signed for for cross training for training That was like when bow knows that whole thing was going on And so it was kind of better for me because volleyball is so small But to cross over and really be signed for training That gave me a little bit more room and extension inside of nike that I wouldn't have had if I was signed only for volleyball How do you deal with that that whole business seems like it's just loaded with ego and testosterone Even in your personal life, you got athlete friends. Are you how do you turn it off? Or do you or just deal with it? And that's a fact of life with those people Well, you know, it's interesting. I'll be honest with you At this time in our lives and and I'll use lair to sort of a partner in this You know, generally we don't spend a lot of time with people that they are alphas but They have it's like they've got weird balance or at least they balance it when they're around us because you know, my husband is pretty Alphish and we always say everybody leaves it at the door because at the end of the day What we're trying to do is get together. Enjoy each other. Maybe learn from each other push each other Those other types. They kind of don't survive in our environment because both of us We can we have different gears, you know, if you will but because you start to realize like hey the essence of life is Um, you don't actually want to be the best or the smartest or the strongest in the room You want to be around those kind of people because then they're going to make you better Um, but if you want to compete, okay. Well, we can do that too, but that's not as productive Um, but you know, it's it's sometimes it's almost a sign of youth When you see a lot of that you go, oh, they haven't they haven't dialed it in yet And they're still a little afraid and they're unsure of their place And so you you kind of understand it also a little bit I think that makes sense Yeah, it seems like you got to know when to bring in the competition when it's making you better and when it's actually not That's right because the competition when you're competing against somebody who can actually help you You're losing an opportunity To learn from them and connect and tap into their power So I think it's also it's a yielding that has to occur where each person can acknowledge and go Hey, you know what? I did what you do or I respect you and then you can really get some stuff done versus I'm so great. I'm a badass and you want to compete because then all of a sudden now you're going to rub against them versus Learn from them and hook in with them. I think it's interesting that you take that stuff into your marriage as well I know I know you're big on spending time with happily married good communicators And you credit that with this in part with the success of your marriage as well It sounds a lot like That jim ronkode like you only go as high as your five closest friends or the people you spend time around or who you become And things like that. How does that apply in your relationships? How are you? How did you set that up and how does it help you? Like i'll just use laird and i as an example people go gosh You guys seem to really like each other so much and I said, you know the thing I know about each of us individually is Why bother like I'm not going to do it and be in this relationship and be with him if one i'm not coming at it With the attitude of how can I make his life better? How can I help him out and also I want to enjoy it? I want to respect him and Otherwise I'd rather be alone. I'd rather not be married and and I know he's even more intense about it than I am Is sort of saying if we're going to do this whatever this is so everybody has a many this is in their in their Life right it's work. It's relationships. It's self-care. Whatever Why not make it great if you can if you can sometimes you can't like if I if laird and I got to a point where I was like This just probably isn't working and we've tried a lot of stuff. Okay, there's that's a different thing But like wow if I can participate in this and try to make this great Why would I not do that if I if I walk up to a counter? Um and at the ticket counter or something and I'm going to interact with the person Why would I not come out at it with like hey good afternoon? How are you today? Okay, I need some help like why so I think for me it's it's it's like you're always trying to operate In that place because then all of a sudden your world You're living on that frequency versus everywhere you go. You've got conflict You can't stand your partner. You can't stand yourself your life. It sucks. It's like, okay I get it. So what can you do to sort of say what how can I try to make it great? And it's an amazing thing when people are personally accountable And say well, I'll do my part and then see what happens your career is I think a lot larger than his if you're going to compare the two and I don't I I'm doing that only because I know that you mentioned in your book that you kept making your personality a little bit smaller In order to kind of manage your relationship. What was that like and what did that do for your relationship or to your relationship? You know, I was young I was 25 when I met laire, but because of the nature of my job I I got to kind of jump on things a little bit and I think it's really typical of females and I will say this and I've talked about this a little bit I was not groomed for success the way I grew up And so I don't know if you can relate to this But as things start to open up for you and things start to happen You it feels uncomfortable and you feel weird and guilty and you feel all this stuff that you got to figure out How to manage success, right? So then I get partnered with somebody who I knew intuitively laire does better at what he does than at what I do Do I do a lot more? I do a variety of things pretty well Maybe more than him, but what at what he does He's so much better like it's surfing than I ever was at volleyball, right? So I was dealing with that And I was the female and there was all this so there was this kind of natural thing where I was like Well, I don't want to make him feel bad. And so I'll be less than And and really what it came down to is once layered sort of had his own footing And a couple of pats on the back if you will It really and also maturity, you know, he grew up too. And I think once men become A little more developed There's room like oh, yeah, honey. Go ahead kick some ass. Awesome. Bravo But when you're younger, maybe it makes you feel threatened So we were dealing with all these dynamics when we first got together And then we worked through it, you know, we almost got divorced and then it was like You know, we really love each other. Let's try to work this out And then I think it's like we both kind of grew up a little bit And and and it took time. I I mean part of me, you know, I I just sound silly I kick myself in the ass because I spent a lot of time apologizing for everything in my 20s to everybody teammates and You know everything because I I I felt bad for getting a lot of opportunities and getting singled out And I wish I hadn't done that Like I wish I had just been like, you know, I'm gonna put my foot on the gas And I'm going to be as bad ass as I can be and everyone can suck it if they don't like it But I didn't you don't you know, you're not doing a lot of us are not doing that, especially women in their 20s Summer it's true. And I think a lot of people Feel like they can't do that as well And I know that you also even more recently you've talked about how Women being submissive in relationships is actually a sign of strength and not weakness depending on how it's done And one interesting quote that I pulled was we don't worry about men having it all So I don't know where we got this idea that to have it all And you talk a lot about how women need to take care of themselves and their their man Have you taken flak for that from the sort of ultra feminist camp? But you I would imagine Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean I got like, oh you set back the feminist movement for 20 years So there's a couple layers into that first of all I call it the post-feminist conversation because let's say If I was born just a little earlier remember, I was born right at title at title nine So I am the first generation exactly 17 or 18 years after its past To get a full right scholarship to go to college So there's things I didn't have to navigate that the women before me did So I understand from their point of view like what a sucky comment that is and plus The fact that the word submissive makes a lot of people nervous But the way I used it was in service and I I genuinely believe that And I was only speaking from my personal experience that the idea of serving your partner Um and serving your your children and your family Uh is a lot of work and takes and is a sign of great strength However, I am not an idiot or say like throw yourself in front of the bus and do it because it's Archie Bunker's your husband It's like yo pick a good partner who's On the same page as you but for me to Try to communicate what laird should do is stupid laird's got to do what he should do not me tell laird You know, well if you do this then I'll do that. How about this? I'm going to choose to be the best partner I can be I'm going to work my ass off I'm going to be try to be great for you and hopefully you'll do the same thing and by the way if he didn't We probably wouldn't be together for almost 22 years. So I think it's we're also in a time where people are very combative And it's all like well, no, you're not going to get up on me and if you want this Then or I'll give you this if you do that That doesn't work and by the way if you're with an alpha male that will blow up in your face in about seven minutes You don't tell an alpha male do this What you do is you hold your line you live the way you want to live And what I have seen is you can inspire someone They can look at you and go wow, she's really like on her game. I I'm going to get on my game not you better That doesn't work. And so people I think they misunderstood and oversimplified what I was saying Um, and I'm okay with that You know katie currick. He was like, you know in my house everything was equal And I was like really there's no such thing as equal in a house and then you you add some kids And it's definitely not equal and and even if it means that the the woman is the alpha There's no two male energies even in a in a straighter gay couple There's one masculine energy and one feminine and I was saying in my house I took the role of feminine because lord lord definitely takes the role of masculine And just finding that having that conversation afloat because then I walk out the door and then I'm back to alpha So how does that work and also once or twice a year layered nose? That's it Like here's a line you want to cross the line. Let's go. I'm down So it's not about being a doormat, but it's also talking about There's I think great strength in yielding. I always use the analogy the grocery store. You're coming down The aisle I'm going down the aisle the other way if I see you guess what? Even if you're younger or whatever, it's like I'll move to the side to let you go. It'll take me three seconds and it's a nice gesture Could I go through you over you? I could but why And so I guess I think You know, we read this book and it talks about it's called natural born heroes and it says hey listen to be a true warrior You have to be compassionate. So we're in a culture right now where everyone's forgetting about Service and kindness and all these things that really are powerful Yeah, I think there's something to that and it seems like coming from a place of power is More effective in the end than coming at it from a place of Well, the the opposite or some sort of mishmash of the two And especially when you're dealing with somebody like laird I know you mentioned in the book you call him the weatherman because he's super moody And yeah, you can't take responsibility for someone else's happiness like that And I know earlier in your marriage one of the things that was causing the problems was you had this mindset that Well, if he really loved me, he'd be happy with me most of the time I'm responsible for making him happy. You just can't do that to yourself Well, you can't you can't do that. It's it's um, it's a kind of a ridiculous notion to think that You you can make someone else happy and that someone else can make you happy You can improve someone else's life. You can inspire people. You can have that back at you But we all sort of have to work out our own stuff if you will And what's been interesting is to watch laird over the years like His moods are and I don't know if it's the tenderizing of our children But you know, he's really leveled out and it's a very I think it's an interesting thing to watch men grow up Because then all of a sudden it's like young guys come they train. He's like, yeah, go ahead. You go You know, it's like an interesting thing where I think you learn to back up and I believe this as an adult It's like my kids tell me stuff that of course I know And I'm like, oh, that's interesting But I don't need to for them to know I'm right or that I knew that already. It's like I don't care, you know, it's There comes a point where you you sort of surrender to to Everyone needing to know how smart and on it you are it's like I don't really give a shit It's like I got it, you know, I'm busy. I got stuff to do and whether you get it or not or you know and and I and a big thing as a woman was not taking it personal and And and understanding that that intensity in laird was also attached to about 50 other things that I loved about them and so Cool. Okay. Yeah. Well, great. I mean, it's I'm glad that it's Worked out so well so far. I'm glad that we met recently and became friends because I think you're an awesome person I'm glad you took your time here to be on the show with us. I really appreciate it Well, I I really appreciate the work that you do and and I'm happy, you know for you and and for the messes that you're putting out with the show So thank you so much for having me Obviously, it's there's a lot of stuff going on in the world at the moment And I actually think that I always say to laird, you know, we really have to fortify ourselves More and and what I mean by that is, you know, just to encourage people to try to keep taking care of themselves and and also to be I know it's so corny like oh be positive, but I think the world needs sort of some kind of like love positivity And and and also remind them that like it's short So if you got something you want to do and you haven't taken that risk If you can do it in a calculated and smart way without ruining your life, you got to go for it Great message. Thank you very much Aloha