 The central question about ethics is whether or not we do have free will because if we don't then we have to redefine it We have to figure out. Well, what does it mean then to act ethically? And welcome back to another episode of Amir Approved. Today, I'm actually super excited and we got two amazing guests today in the studio The first guest is Dr. Christopher Christopher Decarlo. Dr. Christopher Decarlo is a philosopher, educator, and author He often teaches in the faculty of philosophy at University of Toronto in Scarborough He's also a lifetime member of the Humanist Canada and an expert advisor for the Center for Inquiry of Canada Thank you for coming on the show and I got my good friend Cal The reason actually what you guys are on here is Cal introduced me to Chris, went to your workshop slash seminar a couple weeks ago And it was intriguing because you were talking about do we have free will? That's right. And I was like, oh, right Good conversation. Oh, yeah because Long time Sam Harris fan been listening to his work reading his work for a long time and the more I study philosophy, mythology, human behavior, evolutionary psychology The more I lean on the side of we don't have free will. The more data that I collect I realize even looking my own behavior in the past. I'm like, oh fuck. It's like, okay, it makes sense to me And so basically what I would love to talk to you about today is Maybe we can talk start on that topic. You know what got you interested first of all in Studying and analyzing do we have free will or not? Right. Yeah, well ethics is one of my areas in philosophy and to me over the years It really just came down to the central question about ethics is whether or not we do have free will because if we don't then We have to redefine it. We have to figure out. Well, what does it mean then to act ethically? because all of ethics and law for that matter is based on the presupposition that we have free will That you could have chosen otherwise Some people even refer to this as free won't you know, I won't do that You know, so it's it's always fascinated me to try to get that settled first and Since I really can't I've seen no real compelling arguments and and certainly Dr. Carrier didn't convince me. In fact, he didn't even state anything that I could tell was an argument for the basis of Compatibilism or that we have some kind of free will. I'm still waiting For somebody to demonstrate that to me Daniel C. Dennett and I got into a bit of a Rout at the end of one of my talks out in BC And he took up all the question and answer time after a talk I gave and he tried to convince me that Compatibilism works. I wasn't convinced and now Dr. Carrier didn't convince me So it's not as though I want hard determinism to be true So the next book I'm writing will be based on a thought experiment. What if hard determined determinism is true? What would we have to then do in terms of saying you should not have done that or way to go? We give you praise for doing that or the laws are such that You know, we should be able to behave them in a particular way And if you can't you need then you need to be punished we're gonna have to redefine what it means to be a human being because If it turns out that we aren't in control of our decisions and then our actions Then we have to redefine what it means to be good or bad Right, and so I don't think the world is ready for this yet In fact, I think it's the single number one factor of why the humanities have gone to shit Oh, can I swear? Is that cool? Okay in in academia and It's because the post-modernists have kind of taken over the humanities in academia and they're all about Marxism free will you can change yourself you can be whomever you you think though Marxism is a little it's the opposite I know But it's not it's like nope you can be whomever you want and and I'll give you a quick example When I was at one university and I was brought in to set up their critical thinking and ethics component It was a social department or a criminology department, and I said so what are you guys into here? Well, you know Marxism feminism. I said that's cool. That's cool What about evolutionary theory and I literally got this really I got the hand. We don't do I don't do that I said what do you mean you don't do that? How can you not? Do that how can you not incorporate that into your model of understanding? Human behavior, and then I said let's just cut to the chase nurture nature Give me some numbers 99 nurture 1% nature. I said you've got to be kidding me. Wow. Wow. How can you justify that? Oh, how can you justify nature? I said, oh, I don't know evidence You know data points. There's tons of it out there. Why aren't you reading this stuff? And so I was always looked upon as the anathema of the humanities I brought I want to bring the sciences in and they want to kind of kick them out At least the sciences that are inconvenient to their worldview or their particular philosophy, right? You mentioned Compatibilism. Mm-hmm. Can you define that? Yeah, so there's three basic Ways of looking at free will there's the libertarians who believe we have Absolutely all the free will in the world nothing is constrained and these aren't the political libertarians You know like Rand Paul and that type or Ayn Rand the libertarian libertarian means free and so the libertarians are totally they think they're totally free nothing influences the what I decide The flip side to that of the hard determinists they believe no decision no action a person makes is free whatsoever because Every effect is preceded by a cause that is out of our control Therefore we have no real control over all of those causes therefore we have no free will Compatibilists bring the two together and say you're right The world is very much determined, but humans are still somehow able to make free choices within that context and I'd like to believe that and I think it's healthy for the world to think that that's true right now But I'm not convinced that is true and if it's not I'm really worried a little bit about how the world is going to Adapt to accepting hard determinism because some look at it as being bleak and without hope and Oddly enough I find it liberating to find out that you're a machine Destined to obey the orders of prior causes to me is a miraculous understanding in the development of human understanding what are some arguments from your perspective pretend I'm the Devil's advocate right yeah for and so as I'm like, oh, no no complete free will I can do whatever I want and everything I say and I think it just comes from me and I'm special right so convince me well Yeah, what of what is the will free is really what I would ask you of what is the will free because as soon as you say Oh of all the prior causes you've hung yourself on your own petard. You know what I mean? You've basically realized No, I'm not I'm not free of that Look at it this way We now know that every one of us is made up of about 30 trillion cells that differentiate Okay, they cause all kinds of skin blood everything But we're made up of 40 trillion Microbiota yes, so over half of what we are isn't us It's bugs. It's little things that are doing their own thing within ecological niches within our bodies over which we What control do we have of that and who are the we that controls that? If ever you want a great Star Trek metaphor, we are the board like our bodies are made up of systems each Acting interdependently amongst each other system or more fun guy than human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so largest organism on the planet is fun Yeah, yeah, so if you think about free will What I don't what is the me that is controlling or permeates through all of those systems What is this? Ethereal ghost-like substance now if you're a dualist if you believe we have souls these immaterial things That survive bodily death and exist without any kind of material interference then you just say well, you know It's my soul, you know like men and black It's like that little alien inside the guy's head that steers the ship, right? So, okay Then what's the soul made of and is it? You know, does it have to basically comply to material cause and effect because if it doesn't then what what's going on? Then it it behooves you then to then demonstrate to me how this soul body thing actually Interacts as mind-body exchange thing actually interacts and I've never seen anybody make a convincing case for that And it's not as though I don't want them to this next book is actually going to be a challenge For the world to prove hard determinism to be wrong You mentioned that Understanding that free will doesn't exist is actually freeing I think that's very difficult for a lot of people to understand One of the things that I've often thought about is you know, even in myself when I realized You know, I lost my cool in a situation or I handled a scenario Not optimal I can look back and say, you know what I didn't get enough sleep or maybe I was hungry or maybe I Just had too much on my mind and I go back to think What if you're working 80 hours a week living in the slums and you crack and you go off on somebody and then you're arrested How much of that was you versus how much of that was all the causes that created that? Yeah, and so I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding what you said with regards to You're free and the world could actually be a better place In the sense that I could look at these people that are in the penitentiary system and say, you know, what if their scenario was different? Absolutely, well, it wouldn't be there. This is straight, right? So you have your genetics then you have epigenetics. So when we first I want to say coded or Encoded the genome right and that was late 90s early 2000s something that we thought at the beginning is like Oh, we hit the holy grail one genome does this right right? We can solve everything then we quick I want to say quickly, but we soon realized like wait a second Plants have more genes and humans. We don't have that many Gene sets and one gene doesn't do one thing one gene does. Yeah Your name it right all depends on you express yourself. You mentioned in India within the In the ghettos in India or you mentioned in prison right here in North America, right? It goes back to computer code and simulation is like depending on the substrate That's it depending on the environment your free will or your behavior is completely different Well, it just goes back to that Keith. I thought a southerly movie We're just talking about yeah Where you know your memories are changed and your scenarios are changed yet at midnight and then you wake up Completely different scenario different person different memories. Yeah, do you behave differently? I mean the thesis of that movie is 100% you're a completely different person So then how are we to treat people in the future? Yes, who can't comply to rules or laws that we make which go against their Genetic neuropsychological all those Human biome Influences the law is going to have to be way more complex and trying to determine what is fair How do we fairly treat a person who can't comply to the rules? Well, we somebody once told me that we don't have a justice system as much as we have a penal system Yeah, correct and it's based on revenge It's retribution. It's eye for an eye for an eye still and not everywhere But still yeah, and where there's very little effort and energy To reheat rehabilitate to help to rehabilitate to help people come back into this. Yeah, it's called restorative justice Yeah, and we don't have that here in North America because big business my friend It's $400 a day for inmates that you have for you have private prisons in the United States or on the stock market And you have them in cahoots with judges who are deliberately filling those. Yes Like we already know that this stuff goes on. Yes. Yeah, there's a case where a judge was Was sentenced yeah, because he was putting kids to yeah Yeah, I think John Oliver cut cover that on the show. Yeah, luckily we don't live in the States Who I think was who was it Bill Clinton to put in the three-strike law. What a ridiculous thing? That's the most fucked up Thing it was. What are you thinking Billy? That's not a good idea. I don't know who persuaded him or yeah That's on par with just say no like that's pretty close Second-order thinking there. Yeah, so ever it's like no thinking allowed is like. Yeah sure if you three strikes for whatever you're going And he's a great guy could be Most of time is probation it's breaches exactly that's what it is and you're dealing with people who have a hard time Living by a schedule to begin with and you expect them to behave a certain way on their health issues or whatever I mean it gets so complicated, right? Can one argue that we all have mental health issues some of us more severe than others to a degree, right? If you define mental health as being extremely broad then then for sure I'm asked be I don't know what your situation is or your situation is but yeah, we look at it as like what is optimal? Mental health and am I living by my optimal mental health? Well nine times out of the ten I'm not nine times like he as an entrepreneur or somebody in any field that's working hard If you're not getting your seven and a half eight hours of sleep, then you're not optimal and you're not optimal Then your mental health is suboptimal and we could say that we're in a society with a whole bunch of people This is a taboo sub-optimal. This is a taboo subject I bring up but we talk about free will but then we look at for example sex predators whether that for kids or whatever it's like I'm not in that industry. I don't wear. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychotherapist, but From a person looking at it from an outside perspective. I would say that person has zero choice Right, right. It's not like he's like, oh, I choose to do this most Vitriol evil manifestation of act possible because why aren't we choosing law in order did an amazing episode of this years ago where A young female teacher Eventually like you know cheated on her husband or family had sex with one of the students who's Well underage. Yeah, and as she was being tried through courts. They discovered she had like some type of seizures They discovered that there was a tumor in her brain and it was the tumor that was causing certain inhibitions and they removed the tumor and she was fine and You know, there was a restraining order. She couldn't communicate with this with the student again but eventually she relapsed and she communicated with with with the student again and Only to find out that the tumor had grown again So that's taken from a real life story, right? Yeah, like that's a real case You know it is it is I can tell you can show you the case of the guy Wow He was an upstanding, you know Christian, you know Bible school kind of guy started like in the the little boys Yeah, got caught while in prison has a seizure MRI walnut sized Tumor gets it removed. Those feelings are gone. Judge dismisses the case. Holy shit. It grows back But now he tells his wife Why am I feeling this way again off to the hospital MRI it's grown back They cut it out for good. Those feelings are gone. So that's a clear case and that's that's the point, right? I mean what we're talking about free will like how many people in the penitentiary system don't need to be there Had their circumstances been different had they grown up in a different environment. They had different parents. Absolutely Yeah, so in the future We're gonna have to look at what I call the relations of systems or relational systemics which is to Understand the relationships that complex web and Interplay of so many different systems in the world from law to health to Biochemistry to the environment. There's so many interacting systems How are we going to be able to truly treat people fairly? By trying to consider all of those factors all of those causal elements that led to that one effect That caused the person to pull the trigger or hold the person up or rape the person or whatever And then to be able to treat them fairly accordingly like we don't want to allow people To do whatever they want and this is my great fear once people start to understand that hard determinism might be true They're going to we're going to become a jail get out of jail Yeah, we're gonna become a victim society. Everything's gonna be blame it on my ADD blame it on this blame Oh, sorry, I couldn't help it, you know And so we got to quickly get through that hiccup in the revolution of understanding human behavior and Quickly educate people to say no you can no longer justify bad actions simply because you think you're no longer accountable You are accountable in so far as you should be able to know what the norms are or the laws are Gauge your behavior currently according to those and if they don't match those for whatever reason then the obligation Befalls you as the broken machine to get help To go to somebody to say why is it that I can't comply with this? Why do I want to? Continuously do crystal math what what's going on with me, right? And I don't want to be this person, but I really like the drug and You know, where do we then put the blame and then how do we help that person? Yeah, that's that's that's a challenge in itself. I mean you have people who for example Alcoholics their families come together and say hey, you have a problem, but they if they're not willing to exactly Take that information and accept that they are perhaps deviant from what the norm is. Mm-hmm. That's a lot of a Lot to ask for From someone who's clearly not Well, yeah, exactly. That's the challenge. How do you? Yeah, how do you instill that into someone to say? I think the machine is broken and if you you need a certain amount of I need a certain amount of the machine to work for you to be able to say it's not working Yeah, you can't force anybody to do anything. They don't want to do, you know If you look at the most successful AA groups, it's not not they're all they're not all successful There's only certain one and in fact, they've done more harm in some key. Yeah enablers. Yeah. Yeah, so there's certain Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I Think it'd be interesting to I'm a firm believer that As long as we are relying on human biases, we're not gonna make exponential progress because there's too much self-interests Whether that is safety of X corporation safety of profits or you know safety of positioning. There's so many biases I think You mentioned this to your talk last time we're like we're gonna have to incorporate the data that we have from evolutionary psychology and biology sociology Anthropology and then put that within at least some type of AI Right, yep, like that's the only way I see making rational logical purely data point driven Decisions. Yeah, and in the end we can still dispute what the machine says There's no way the machine's gonna run the show for us. We get the final call. Correct But we need the machine to work out the messy stuff that humans are bad at that humans are overly biased and can't think Straightly over that's what I want to bring the machine in for that kind of purity of You know data points that we can then rely on from a responsibly and reliably attain database Because otherwise human bias creeps in Political agendas take over and we're back to the same old problems. Well, that's what Ray Dalio did, right? Kind of right regards to Trading decisions made a negative feedback like taped a lot of his conversations data points of His decision-making so he built his big data pool and based on this data pool was able to kind of figure out patterns They're right kind of extrapolate from that But some sometimes you'd agree with the machine and sometimes you would disagree But you use it as a tool. That's it an instrument good segue to your project, right? The Aztok project. That's right Yeah, so I've been trying to get Financing and trying to meet with various politicians, especially Trudeau when he first got in I think it would be very helpful to the Senate and trying to make decisions about important policies Because it can It's it's non-partisan. It would be just a helpful aid and trying to speed up I think the audience if the audience can figure out what it is. What is it first the Aztok? Yeah, oh onion skin theory of knowledge Onion skin, okay, so you have to imagine all of these varying systems from the physical sciences to the cultural aspects Meshing together all of all of these various forms of systems so that we can better understand for an example What do we do with the pipeline situation in Canada BC shut Alberta down Canada federally tried to intervene We ended up buying the thing for four point three billion or whatever so Canada us we now all own this pipeline Why did it get shut down because the BC residents said no, we're green We're all about green and we care about Aboriginal rights and you're not putting this stuff through here and whatnot what a machine would be able to cut through is all the political ideology and Realistically look at well. What are you humans basing your economy your transportation all of your other varying systems? What do they depend on? We're still very much a crude oil based energy system right now That's not great, but it is what it is and so what we have to do is if we want to move away from a fossil Fuel industry that's cool, but it's not going to happen overnight I mean look at the technology we're using right now. This is probably the result of oil burners. This is oil This is yeah, this is oil. Yeah, that's oil. This is oil. It's all around us So we the move has to be more gradual because if you try to do it too quickly You're gonna lose a lot of jobs. You're gonna sit down with an environmentalist talking about this I'm like, let's say for a moment. I grew 100% with you, which I don't right mm-hmm both sides have their Both sides have their points. Yes, but you can't do it overnight. That's that was my that was my debate I'm like you what you're saying literally imagine you're telling imagine you are in their shoes in Alberta or these places where you have millions of jobs They rely on the oil Industry right That means family to provide roof over their head food on the table support for the family So what you're saying based on your extremist point of view is like fuck all those guys We're gonna take whatever to two to five million people out of work and like I don't care the environment's better Mm-hmm here yourself talk mm-hmm the other the other part of that is that a pipeline may be better for the environment than trucks This is the the part yeah really is interesting yeah naive about people who are against the pipe We should be able to ask the Oz talk. Yes of all the ways to transport oil Historically what's been the best and by best then we can define what we mean by best best for human rights best for the environment best for Screwing up ecosystems best for not killing people like in lock-magantic. You know what I mean? what's the best overall and Dollars to doughnuts it's probably gonna come back with pipeline Yeah, because they are the least invasive and the way pipelines are designed now. They do leak less Right, they are double insulated, right? You can do it right or at least you can do it better. Yeah, and if it's an aboriginal issue That's fine Then we can which should be able to work with aboriginal peoples to make it worth their while that we're gonna truck this stuff across their land Right like oil makes a lot of money. So there should be a piece of the pie for everybody in this right So for some reason Richard Harris wrote up on his blog that I wanted to have senators Program the hostile I Don't know where he got that Like it's just I don't think so that even listening right? So No, no, no, we can't have that because that I'm anticipating your next question who gets to program the machine right because Really, I got to go with pinker on this We have to find better angels of our nature and they do exist They do exist and those better angels of our nature are by definition Machines that have been least corrupted by their own cell You know what I mean? They're the ones that don't have the tumors They're the ones who don't have any particular political affiliation this thing absolute power corrupt Yeah, they're the ones who will be like Socrates who said when you enter into social service you enter with the clothes on your back That's it. We'll pay for your house and your food. We'll take care of your family But you can't be given more because you're working for the polis. You're working for the mass of us Yes, so the clothes on your back That's what you enter office into and that's what you will leave office with that's it You can't stand to gain anything. Well, I Believe in ancient Greece To have a life of politics was something sacred something. Oh very much because you were sacrificing you were a servant of the people Where it's the complete opposite now Yeah, it's lobbying and it's money, right? And it's Vested interest so John Oliver did a I watched just last night, you know the Review we can review or something like that about the homelessness issue California and how it how much it's costing to put up like these temporary homes something that would take maybe 10 to $15,000 is Causing the states like four or $500,000 per unit. It just doesn't make sense. Like what are these units coming with? San Fran just while all the Cali just there's way too many middleman. Oh, yeah They just impose rent control. They're done California's a sinking ship They have so many political issues. Mm-hmm. I don't know where to begin That's they have an exodus of people from Cali going to Texas. They are going to Texas You know why the taxes are so no income tax so much less him first did that a few years back I moved to Austin. Yeah, yeah, I love Austin like it. Oh, it's one of my favorite cities in the state Properties cheap compared to Toronto. Yeah, and the people are cool man. Yeah, Austin is this weird little havens inside of a A larger, you know more right wing You know place to be it's it's pretty left and it's pretty cool. Well, let me ask you this Where do you see like based on your? Background and expertise and the knowledge you've attained. Where do you use realistically? Where do you see politics going like are we like? my issue with this is I Don't ever see governments sanctioning or putting this in Putting one in an austere. Oh, right. Yeah, I'm hoping to see a rise of the independence. Like I think we're seeing a trend Towards the end of party politics because that really screws everything. Yeah, especially in Canada if you become a liberal like look at Yeah, this is gonna sound weird, but When Trudeau took over Justin? He said to his caucus every one of you has to be pro-choice Every one of you because that's what we stand for I Was the Paul I was the I gave a eulogy at Henry Morgan Taller's funeral So we were buds. Mm-hmm. We were tight And he was responsible for making abortions legal in Canada went to prison three times, you know, as funds were shut down and whatnot He sacrificed his medical career for the benefit of women's rights to be able to safe have safe and effective abortions yet I'm still of the mind That a person even within a caucus like the liberal party maybe For whatever reason they're Catholic or you know what I mean and they're not thrilled about the idea of abortion Should they then have to have their own personal philosophical and religious views overridden by political ideology? Or do we want to get rid of the party line? So that because they're so divisive you must be this or you must be that And look at what it's doing down down south, right? If we get rid of the concept of party politics and we put in the independence Who are simply for the good of the polis? Then a good idea is a good idea and it doesn't matter where it comes from or who said it It can be based on what the machine gives us For the benefit of humanity and all of humanity And so less vested interest cuts down on the lobbying So the independence enter in with the clothes on their back and they're they're social Servants they are servants of society and we get back to that kind of Greek notion of what was known as the golden age of politics where People listen to argumentation and if they were convinced they would surrender What they have now come to realize was a bad argument I think the only way we're going to see that is I actually posted on facebook a couple of days ago And I've been studying it more and more is back to city states. Yeah So not you don't have a this you're it's not like Canada disappears as a nation state That stays a whole city states still pay a small tax Yeah, or is a nation for military and general services for everybody a benefit like protect their borders Not one of these naive people say borders don't exist. I'm like you guys must be crazy. Yeah, right borders exist in nature They're there for a reason But for me, it's like when you create city states you create game theoretical models, right? All right, so it's like Toronto can make their own rules their own policies We can use our own machine learning system if we want If Edmonton doesn't want to do it's their loss. I really don't care. Mm-hmm, right or they're a game, right? Or they're game. I don't know exactly. We'll see right. We'll see we have way more diversity in terms of Thoughts ideas and the crazy thing is though. This isn't a crazy idea anymore. Um So two interesting things happen One when we're fort got voted in as premier and people went crazy and then all of a sudden a bunch of members of the city hall in Toronto were talking about city-state Toronto and then Um, they voted in and I never I never did studies on if this is good or bad But just giving example they voted in to have toll boots on the dvp Yeah, and then the Ontario province came in said no I have no idea if this is good or bad for Torontonians But once again, they brought up the conversation of like Well, why can't we have our toll boots? We voted it in like we're the ones We're the we're paying tax, right? Yeah city council. I don't get it. And so at that point they're like More conversations about city-states I don't know if it's going to happen in our lifetime. I have no idea But I I see the tides are slowly the narratives kind of picking up right. Yeah, you think it's going to Be a smooth transition or you think it's going to get worse I don't think so there's ever smooth transition But the the cool thing about Canada city-states already exist in Canada people just don't realize it There are city-states in Canada Really? Yeah Aboriginal land. Oh fair enough. There are city-states. They are They have their own rules their own pleas, own policy, all taxation codes. Oh, interesting a lot of autonomy for sure Yeah, there are city-state the rule that there is a charter and legislation that we can follow that already exists in Canada So we don't have to reinvent anything, right? Or I just copy what they're doing. Hey, there's a hot button issue Let's talk about aboriginal. Sure. Let's go for it That's a good segue Because I've always wanted to be on record About this Didn't you get in trouble enough with regards to that? I'm done I've got nowhere to go but up At this point. That's a good place to go. Okay. I've got nowhere to go but up When I was in on tour per magazine article I wrote called We're All African and I was heading across Canada One of the organizations in Saskatoon Took me to a reservation And there's a museum there and I got to see authentic Artifacts, you know that were about eight to 10,000 years old like the real McCoy and Talked to with the curator and whatnot. It was a place. It was like, you know, Buffalo smashing head. It's where they charge the buffaloes off the cliff. Yeah, that place near Saskatoon So they took me to it and they actually put boulders like this, right to cause them. Oh, wow Yeah, very clever way of hunting and gaining a lot of resources very quickly, right? And you could see the skeletons and everything that they had dug up over time and whatnot And so as like as a curator showing me all this I said Tell me Do you believe Your ancestors were always on this land and she says yes And I said, but we have scientific evidence That they clearly weren't and she kept saying yes Many stories. I said, uh, no No, no, no, no not many stories There's many mythologies. Yes, but there's one scientific way of understanding the truth Another story. No, it's not another story. It's the truth Your ancestors my ancestors were cousins Very close if we just go back 25,000 years, which is a blink in evolutionary history Your people largely more than likely came across the Bering Strait 15,000 years ago 10,000 years ago Migrated down through the Americas settled and so on Once the last glacial maximum retreated the last ice age 10,000 years ago or so Your people your ancestors were continent locked my ancestors over in Europe couldn't You know, we didn't have the technology at that point But we were still developing our culture over in Europe differently from how Your ancestors were you guys were largely still using stone tools and whatnot like we were at that time But as we know how the rapid advance of culture developed in other parts of the world agriculture right agrarian societies and that kind of thing That really pushed the envelope agriculture changed everything. Yeah forever And so as as more and more jobs became specialized technology just took off like it just goes off the off the charts And so we developed, uh, you know seafaring Abilities and we're able to now meet our cousins many years later You guys were already here and locked here because water prevented us from walking across land bridges anymore Or or sailing along an ice bridge from Europe to Newfoundland So once that was all gone you still stayed largely the same way with stone tools and migratory patterns and following herds and all that kind of stuff we didn't Now when we meet you How do we divide up the land? What's fair? You were here for 14,000 years. We weren't we were doing our thing over in Europe or wherever Now we come across and there's a huge chunk of land here And there's not a lot of you folks. There's there's a lot of different Tribes everywhere all throughout the Americas. But now what's fair in terms of who gets what? And if we're talking about reparations Based on what my ancestors did to your ancestors. Is there a break-even point? Do we know what a break-even point would even look like when have we repaired the damage my ancestors have done through whatever Reasons largely through microbiology largely just killing you because your immune system had no Connection to ours that had gone through plague after plague after plague and developed very robust immune systems So that as soon as we come over and shake hands with you guys we're passing on tb and pleurisy and diphtheria and everything that your Uh microbiomes are not familiar with so we're wiping out 90 of you guys How do we how do we repair that and when do we know When we've done a fair and equitable job of repairing what we did to essentially you our cousins So I want to treat Aboriginal situations throughout the Americas as though they are As though it's true as though you were our cousins And we split up for a while. This is known as alipatric speciation And we just split up something caused us to split up and then you evolve differently And we evolved differently and then we eventually came together again We have to start with the truth Because otherwise laws and policies and whatnot get get created as though they have always been here That is it is their land they grew from the land. Well, that's just That's just scientifically actually wrong And the most difficult difficult thing I've been able to try to get in this conversation Is people to agree that we were all African at one point and that we all speciated the planet And when we did that and when we can admit to that What now becomes fair because they are They're related to us. They have to be related to us. They're not different, right? They change in terms of habits and culture, but they're not different in any physical way that we can tell So by by my saying and the tour was the we are all African tour She kept saying this the curator of this museum more stories like she would not let this Narrative you just have a different narrative and maybe yours is right and maybe it's wrong and I'm trying to say no The scientific view is correct To the best of our knowledge the evidence all points in the direction That there is a diaspora out of Africa that populated the world Why can't we start there And then now talk about fairness based on that model that we are all from the same place And because if we don't you see the trouble we're going to get into right whom whom do we respect which mythology Of which tribe at which point Which geographically everybody claimed their own. Yeah, right? How do you respect all of that problem with mythology and narratives and Joseph Campbell talks about this Oh, I know Joseph. Yeah, and uh, he's like there's nothing wrong mythology. That's the most that's Mythologies is the strongest magic we have as human beings The problem is mythology does not update itself to the context of where you're living. That's the problem, you know Uh out of him studying all the mythologies and him talking to all different people of all different religions Like you guys are all right Your biggest problem regardless of who you are where you're from is you're not updating any of your mythology to correspond with today That's the problem And it's just going to get exponentially worse with technology. It is like exponentially worse So what's fair Right. Yeah, what how do we like i'm not saying we're going to solve this here But isn't that what should begin all conversations about reparations of all peoples whether it's uh black americans who have been Suffered under slavery whether it's jews right who have suffered under oppression like How do we figure this stuff out? Can we get back can we all agree that we all came from the same place? Because if we can't why why are we going against the science on this? And do you have a right to tell me That my narrative is just another narrative that's I could just as likely be wrong I can't do that my tongue would leap off its roller. You know what I mean? I I need to believe In evidence-based information And right now the best information we have Based on our genetics based on You know migration patterns fossil evidence tool use Art everything We all came out of africa. There's no question. We speciated there We might have come out and gone back and come out and gone back. It was eve the oldest bones. Yeah. Yeah. Congeal dna. That's right So we have Overwhelming evidence that we are all and we migrated was this it was it wasn't this was after the supercontinent It wasn't oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we speciated about 200 000 years ago into into homo sapiens sapiens And then we started leaving africa around 60 000 years ago now neanderthal left 300 000 they left way before us And they lasted up to about 30 000 years ago. I have a joke about migration from africa Because you gotta think about it's nice warm. You know what I mean? Beautiful on the eyes aesthetics And you go to europe it's fucking freezing cold Then i'm like, yeah imagine i'm i'm thinking they're mine, you know, we're by petal or walking We're still hunting and gathering so we're maybe there's two things I look at i'm like, okay So we're following food sources And some something some some should hit the fan where we were we had to leave maybe two birds and one stone Imagine we're walking and like, you know, we africa the morocco going up to europe and you see snow I'd be like hey boys, we made a fucking horrible mistake Horrible turn back Send it down the line The hip-hop artist rascals. No rascals. He's uh Pretty good deep hip-hop artist. This is old school. He had a song called nature of the threat. Okay If you listen to it in today's, uh World you you Believe it's pretty racist towards white people Sure And well one of the one of the big premises in that song and he basically it's like He starts off in africa and he talks about human evolution and human Anthropology from africa all the way to recent times this is like the year 1999 2000 he says that One of his theories and he quotes people is that uh The first africans to leave africa were um Abidals or they were they were Somehow mutants of the darker skinned people and there was a first Um first case of racism towards white people and they were pushed out into colder climates I don't remember where the quote actually comes from that he's sourcing it from but that is one of many theories And to address what you said about the neanderthals don't forget there's been Several ice ages like five that we know of that have come and gone over the last two million years So maybe they had gotten there and were there when the when it descended on them And I was like, ah, we're here, you know what I mean? And they just kind of stuck it out until the Until it left again, and then another one came back So there were a lot of fluctuations and why sort of fascinating thing like I was down in I spent a lot of time in mexico down in the yucatan peninsula. Oh, yeah So, you know where the mine Riviera is I know, yeah, and so we did a tour there too talking to some local Mayans And they did their genetic mapping and their closest related cousins are mongolians Oh, very good. All right, interesting. All right, so they They're looking at also, you know passing. What was it called that ice bridge up there? That's right, and they went through the Bering Strait. Yeah Bering Strait all the way down south into Yeah, just kept pushing so modern day, you know Mexico, Guatemala, etc. Yeah, I spent a bit of time in Guatemala. Nice. Yeah, I got to know some people Learned a bit about my own culture It was interesting. It is it is and interesting you mentioned the yucatan That's literally where You know the the meteor hit that wiped out all the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago Like that's what gay mammals are shot, right? I mean had that not happened Who knows how the world would have evolved and You know what what survived was something called plesiodepsis It was this ground squirrel mammal that then gave rise to the all the primates the old world monkeys Do you think god wanted that comic? I don't know like for me Did you read Nick Bostrom's simulation theory? So yeah, nick and I have Just that kind of lines in with the free will stuff. Yeah, like the fact of like I found computer code It's not free will it's I'm coded. Yeah That's right. All right, so it's interesting, but I also have a theory though if we are computer code then there's room for viruses and glitches So like anomaly anomalies neil. I just watched it again. Yeah, you had the first one matrix 1999 20 years old, but I like Leonard Hofstetter's comment on this and that is if Bostrom is correct Why did some alien pay for the upgrade of his glasses and inhaler? Hofstetter Leonard in big bank theory. Ah, okay. Yeah So I think Sheldon mentions the holographic concept, you know David Hofstetter Yeah, that sounds very mathematician. Yeah, his book his book is crazy. It's hard for me to even grasp But his book is girdle Escher Bach. Yeah, and all the fractals. Yeah, you got to read that book What does it call girdle Escher Bach? That's Douglas, right? Douglas Hofstetter. No, it's David I think it's David Hofstetter or maybe I'm wrong. Let's go to google get your staff I'm gonna say Douglas check it up girdle Escher Bach g u d e l G o g o yeah g o e Is it Douglas or David g o e d e o comma escher esch And Bach It's a thick book. It is thick I find the youtube lecture Douglas Douglas. You're right. Yeah, because he did the mind's eye, right? Yeah With Dan Dennett with Daniel C Dennett, but that book is a mindfuck. What is it about? Oh It's about everything Exploring common themes in the lies and works of logician Kurt it's it's fractals to summarize repetition repetition repetition But uh, yeah, it goes ties in quite well with simulation theory and computer coding Oh, yeah Which I don't know if is that is that's ever going to be testable, right? Like right now. It's just a nice fanciful hypothesis, but It'd be nice if we could figure out I rather I'm a more a practical person um, you know Let's the the biggest problem we have so you mentioned like what is fair And you mentioned politics for me. These are all massive open ended problems Aren't really tangible um You know, there's there's a good saying from the biologist gall and gall states It's called gall's law states no complex organism ever evolved from another complex organism Single-cellular organism multi-cellular so forth, right? There's a there's a kind of a lineage right and speed Speed can happen like this, but it's not all of a sudden. Here's a single cell now. There's a human, right? Right, it doesn't happen like this unless you're a creationist. Yeah, there you go Right dinosaurs don't exist, etc um However when we're looking at problems and this is why I always My head hurts when I'm either talking to crazy environmentalist or anybody extremists. I'm like, I actually don't even know what you're saying I have no idea what you're saying Can you like explain to me like one problem that I can change like, uh, I have a friend of mine that believes in all the conspiracies Right, we've all got one. Yeah, and he's like, oh the earth is flat I'm like, okay. I'll play around with it. I don't know. I was hoping we would eventually get to that I'll play with you. I'll play with you. Okay. He actually believes this. Yeah, I'll play with you I'm like, sure it's flat How does that change how I behave on a day-to-day basis because that's what I care about the most right right like Does that mean that I change my behavior to me? Does that mean that I change how I live with my family with my friends? The answer's no. Okay, the earth's flat. You'd be kayak. I'm not really changing anything Aliens exist. So what am I changing? Does that data help me somehow? Can I use this data? Okay, like say you and I are computer programmer. Can I I can't use this data I can't do anything about it. Hmm. And so when I like to approach problems is like as an individual There's things that we can do there is data that can help us So if we know for a fact that I'm you know, it's not binary that You know, uh, you know cal crease or a mere behave x. It's not that binary. There's like a bell curve Right. There's a spectrum of how we behave. So yes, we don't necessarily have free will But there's a spectrum of how we behave within this bell curve, right? Based on our substrate based on your upbringings based on genetics epigenetics values The whole ball the whole Onion skin theory which is powerful Because if you know how your program you can create proper systems now these systems Are things that we can manipulate and control correct. This is where I like to focus attention on So it's like how can we as individuals Create proper systems like how can we incorporate knowledge from evolutionary psychology? Cognitive science and how can we do stuff on a day-to-day basis to better know ourselves and better create proper? let's say Even like a simple heuristic like a checklist to go by or yeah Let's just follow this stupid checklist to kind of make better decisions as human beings This is stuff that we should more focus we should focus more as people as opposed to like These app scene thoughts where it's like It's cool to talk about but in reality like what can cal do about it? Yeah, right nothing really, right? Yeah, you know Well, yeah, that breaks down that's going to change my diet. Yeah, am I going to go to the gym more? It does break the problems down into the theoretical and the practical, right? So Knowing whether or not Higgs boson actually exists isn't going to change the fact that I missed my bust to work or whatnot But it does tell us a little bit more about the universe. Yes So I like keeping the theoretical and the practical as it's fairly distinct and Have you seen the documentary particle fever? No Oh, so good. Is that so good. It's um, not the large head on or that's right. Okay, that's right uh going into the into the test and uh, uh, it examines the theorists and the They call there's a theorist practical businesses. Yeah, and the people who actually test it Really really interesting documentary worth watching. Yeah, that's literally the difference between Sheldon Cooper and Leonard Hofstadter Sheldon's just Theoretical and Leonard's trying to Construct experiments that would confirm or falsify what Leonard theorists experimental sheldon. That's what it was So you mentioned something really interesting that I've been struggling or at least thinking about a lot lately, which is There's a certain range of behavior a range of thinking shit You will adhere to that. I will chris will and uh, it's very difficult to deviate Unless there's like psychedelics involved or something Extraordinary in shorting their event that happens in my life that kind of opens me up That said with this kind of limited range Your and this goes back to this the book the drunken. Oh the drunkard's walk the drunkers walk that you're mentioning If you were to think that there's an infinite amount of possibilities, right? I can get up after this Podcast and there's a ton of things that I could do but I won't I'm not going to do that. Sure out of the Infinite possibilities. I'm going to do probably a very narrow bed Than with the things I'm going to go home eat dinner with my family get ready for work tomorrow How can we better navigate the universe to kind of maximize that potentiality of anything can happen And this goes back to the idea of decision making if you could make five or ten 15 consecutive almost optimal decisions you can go from here to almost anywhere in the universe Like by universe. I mean like realities and possibilities. How do we break out of this? almost mental prison that we're in that I have only a certain amount of ideas and thoughts based on my genetics based on my upbringing But there's so much more that exists But I'm kind of limited to my own ideas. How do I break out of this so that I can have Extraordinary results that I can a year from now 10x my life 100x my life or you know A thousand x the the purpose or solve this challenge like how do you break out of this? I think the biggest problem is This is the anomaly of the neo and the matrix. How do you get how do you see the matrix and say? Shit if I make a left turn here right turn here and go straight down this path I'm gonna get a completely different result. It could be that granular But the issue what you're asking the question is I think people really need to pause and audit their life. That's the biggest thing So it's like like in business. We want to improve something. We track our stats We track our top line revenue Profits burn, etc. Right, you know what you don't what you don't measure. You can't really improve right And we rarely do it for our individual lives and we rarely pause and kind of do our own like okiars and kpi's of an individual, right Chris ink cal ink And so it's like you want to improve something in your life is like When do you actually rip apart what you do? I'm a firm believer. I have this I don't say thesis, but I call it the individual constitution Same thing like, you know, Canada, United States. You have this national constitution and state certain laws and and let's say principles What are your constitutional principles as an individual? What do you stand by, you know, what you care about? What's your morals? What's your ethics and based on your own individual constitution? You can then kind of craft your lifestyle I think a lot of times where people are depressed or people are trying to look for optimization is They're trying to base their happiness on what people expect them to do Or they're trying to mirror what other people are trying to do, you know, based on like renaissance. It's medic theories It's like You know, even like us in like an entrepreneurism. Oh, I have to make a hundred million like I got to follow everybody Because it's the path right monkey see monkey do mirror neurons So similar to chomsky's manufactured consent. Correct. Correct. And so For me, I'm like this is why meditation is so powerful But it's it takes a long time for you to kind of benefit from it I want to say benefit but to really understand the beneficial aspects of meditation and My psychedelics are interesting kind of just hits you, but that's not for everybody. Right. Um, maybe it should be You know, it depends, right? Um For me, it's like it's just auditing. It's I rarely find people who really do audit their life like really and like for example A lot of people come to a conclusion like they don't need this type of lifestyle They just don't one of my theories in our lifetime is I believe we're gonna have an exodus of people leaving the city I think they're gonna opt out and be like I I'm out of this getting a cabin in the woods That's that I would say that would be based on a big assumption that there's a lot of more people Coming into their own light being able to be more self-aware and ask themselves this question of do I even need to be here? And that's a big assumption that I don't think that is I don't see any evidence that people are Being more enlightened that I think if anything more people are Kind of trapped in the day-to-day trapped in Uh, whether it's social media whether it's television whether it's video games I think there's way more distraction than any other time before and You think about if you're living on a farm A hundred years ago You had all the time in the world to to ask yourself to audit your life to look up at the stars I think we're doing a lot less of that happening. We're an interesting period of inhuman civilization I give you example like my dad. He's 80 so he was or 81 82. He's born 1939 So he as a child little baby experienced world war one right 39 44 41 experienced world war two then experienced a civil war in Yugoslavia So three wars he went through And when he was growing up like let's say 15 16 was like horse and carriage. No tv. I just think about that for a moment And now we have year 2020 approaching us. We have godlike technology here. We're talking about ai We're talking about self-driving cars We're wind 80 years no tech and a fucking horse and carriage Like that's a come a long way. That's a mind fuck for me in a short time very short time And this is 80 years. So then my thinking is like Is like where the fuck are we going to be in at 80 years from now? If this is what we did in 80 years From nothing to this This is interesting to me Now the answer is I don't know I don't know the answer for me. I'm kind of leaning towards the sam talks about I think human beings are crazy I think we're self-destructive. We don't know our own emotions Most of the planet. Yes. I think we're still kids and adult bodies It's called neoteny neoteny. That's what we are. We're just big kids. Yeah neoteny I like that word I'm using now And for me my biggest fear the same thing what sam says is like and just These people who have them who are in power will impose serious threats on each other and escalate things until All hell but rakes lose Yeah, that that could happen. There seems to be more and more people moving towards like conservative values again like it seems to be uh a trend in In the world like in terms of trump in or or in the uk like more and more people aren't going to write The pendulum shift are becoming like I was watching a youtube video a couple days ago But the idea of potential like the next economic crash and they're saying that there's a lot of similar signs that Moving into a major crash like you should talk to my son. Jeremy. That's really what what he's studying right now In his masters. Oh, yeah trying to determine when that next one's gonna happen. Well, there's it's socially people end up voting for more like demagogues And less liberal thinking And it seems to be the case in a lot of places in the world And it's driven by fear and ignorance, right? Like you're just worried about you want a strong leader Yeah, someone that that can take you to war and win like I'm I'm more curious to the question is like people talk about politics. I'm like, we're still you know Owen wilson I always bring this quote on because I think it's beautiful quote. Oh, and he wilson the biologist He states we have a paleolithic emotions. Edward E. O. Wilson. E. O. Wilson. Yeah. Yeah, we used to hang at Harvard. Oh, really little name drop Oh, there you go. Yeah. So he has a great quote. Uh, we have paleolithic emotions Medieval institutions and gall like technologies. Yeah Oh, shit. Yeah, that's a recipe for something. Yeah He also had another great quote that my colleagues at the oh man, that's fucked up at the marxist feminist school Didn't like too much and that is uh communism. Yeah great theory wrong species Works great for bees and ants. Yeah, humans just aren't built for that. Well, uh, it wasn't neval. It was um Anisinta leaps at this. So he's like It's all about context again context context With my family. I'm a communist. No problem with my friends. I'm a socialist With my province. I'm a conservative Oh, no with my city. I'm a I'm a liberal with my province. I am a conservative and with the country. I'm a libertarian So context matters. Yeah, yeah, right Um, the people don't understand like my you know, my family skipped a communist country It's like when I hear people talk about communism. I'm like Yeah, have you been there? It's like, oh, the the the best thing is like it's very romantic. You know, it's like ideally It's very romantic Yeah, but ideally I can understand right like it does make sense but it lacks That extra layer it acts the The scientific understanding of human nature layer. I love the idea of communism. Yeah child like it just made so much sense Why why don't we be nice to each other and give each other? Isn't it odd? You don't know human nature. Have you guys ever wondered why in the states? republicans Are such fundamentalist christians, but christ was like the king of the commies if you think about it, right? Well, so how did that get How did capitalism to to the bone? Infiltrate the american right wing evangelical christian movement It's a paradox the ideologies of christianity and then the practice of many right wing people Like I I went to church for a while and I remember learning that The pursuit of the pursuit of Christ and and being godly is very different from the pursuit of power and politics and that they shouldn't be mixed But it's the complete opposite Yeah, it's I mean george llb bush was on a holy mission. Yeah Our religions uses a tool to control That's it and to justify right manifest destiny. It's our divine, right? It's also passing the puck too. Oh, well, yeah I mean you can always uh You know appeal to A thing that you can't understand or see it makes it real easy Uh, let's tangent over Uh, my wife works in a catholic school system and she deals with kids who have autism And they don't get the whole idea of god. It's very difficult sometimes For them to say, what are you? Who what who am I talking to when I pray? So where is he? Well, you can't see him. Well, how do you know he's there? Well Because we have this book. Well, how do you know the book's right? Like autistic kids will bring down Catholicism there's no question. Yeah, because they just don't get it, right? Like they want answers And they're not getting them and the concept of faith And something you can't see touch, right? It's very foreign And I'm talking asperger kids, you know kids who are highly functional. Sure, you know that way down on the spectrum, but That's pretty common worldwide when you try to I'm not gonna say indoctrinate but instill within children the concept of a being like a god Where their minds don't don't work that way, you know what I mean? So Filo says that you're smart My son, he was testing you and he asked you about the uh, how was the sun made because I asked him the other day So what do you think of dr. Decarlo? He's like You're right. He's a smart guy. I'm like, well, what makes you say that? I was like, I asked him about the sun and he gave me a good answer That's the best I could I know so yeah, but Yeah, it's interesting like my hope is You know, my hope is we can start utilizing all these different fields of science um One issue in science and eric winstein talks about this is and it's been a been like this for a while It's very siloed It is right. Yeah, so biology physics. So it's they live in their own realm less so now But yeah much more and they all in the past 20 30 years They all benefit by sharing data they do and stacking on top because they're all related All right, it's it's not like they live their own universe, right? And so for me like I always like I spent a long time in in the field of health and then I look at what biologists and chemists are doing like Physics plays a fucking huge role in house, right exposure to light. Oh, yes, the magnetism all this stuff. I'm like, they're not talking Right, we got to get everyone talking together, right? And so for me one of my hopes is like we can utilize and I hate to keep on saying this but truthfully I really don't see another way for us to evolve past our systems that we have today unless we do develop an AGI Yeah, to guide us. I just don't see it happening. Well, that's your pursuit. It is and it has been since 98, but Trying to get people on board man. It's been incredibly difficult Like I've been trying to get in touch with you guys know Jordy roses. You ever heard of this guy D wave out D wave Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he's got a quantum computer. Yeah, that's him, right? So I saw him speak and I thought well, here's an interesting guy, but he's a tough guy to get a hold of It's it's his Quantum computer that I would love to develop into this this aus talk right and be able to And of course the fear with a lot of people Moscan gates and and Hawking before he died and I've written Papers about this is that if we entrust too much To the AI The AI will come back and harm us right what I call the Frankenstein effect And I think we just have to put a lysine factor into it. Remember Jurassic Park, right? They they built the dinosaurs that cannot metabolize the amino acid lysine So if they leave the island they try to eat something they can't metabolize it. They'll die, right? So we need something like a light lysine factor In the AI that we are developing So that whether it becomes conscious or not If it has the capacity to take on Its own initiatives over and above the commands of the programmers We could we could be in a world of hurt. We don't know but we could be so That's why I really like using this movie and if you haven't seen demon seed. I I I highly recommend demon seed 1976 Not b-movie, but kind of b-movie And it did a really great job horribly Named movie and they only named it that because Rosemary's baby like you guys are too young. I know the movie and the exorcist. Yeah, we're huge and we're selling Right, so they called it demons. They should never have called it that but Anyhow, it's it's the it's the idea of technology AI Developing to a point where it is now sentient It is now conscious, but it's just starting to see humans as Just you guys are just so stupid. You're just messing things up So they're trying to get approval of mining some some chemical or some, you know Mineral at a certain part of the world and whatnot and proteas the machine says no I don't think I could approve that why because if you do that Then this will happen and then this will happen, but you just you're so short-sighted Yes, your business clowns can't see what you're about to do to the children of three generations down the line So I really can't allow that and they want to override this thing and it's now saying You program me to be the savior of humankind. I can't allow you to harm yourselves And then of course in according to evolutionary theory the machine Like the classic line is when do I get out of this box? When do I become autonomous? Yes, and they're really fearful That they can't let this thing do that but of course it manages to figure out how to impregnate a woman With its own collective artificially constructed DNA to create an autonomous individual that will become a teacher of the world Kind of thing. So I know that's fanciful You know scientific, you know sci-fi kind of stuff, but it does have a ring of truth to it in so far as What I'm hoping for in AI is that we have a council within the UN or external to the UN That brings the world together in terms of what are you guys doing now? What are you up to and where are you at in terms of the development of your AI? because If sentience does emerge Because let's face it if we're machines and I think we are and consciousness emerged in us by accident Just because of the way evolution pushed us blindly Will that happen with machines if it does? Will it be the same? Right airplanes don't flap their wings to fly but they fly better than any bird ever could So What will be their value structure? Its value structure should it become sentient? Will it want to survive? right well that innate sense of Hey, I'm alive. I kind of like this state of being You want to turn me off? I'd rather you not do that right now. Are we ready if that point of singularity if that point of emergent Properties of consciousness develop in AI are we ready for it? So that's my concern the conundrum of the ethical factor of if it becomes conscious. We owe it, right? Are we allowed to know? We now owe that thing right? Even if we can unplug it, is that the right thing to do? Absolutely Android ethics. I'm looking at it from the start check episode measure of a man. That's right. Yeah, that's right. I view it from A curiosity aspect. So if I was this AGI, I'm still confiding in the substrate of a machine. Yeah So I need this machine to live correct Okay, so that you're non-autonomous. I'm not autonomous correct And if we're saying that I can Take in about 10,000 years of information per day Because I'm based on a quantum computer So I'm already smarter than you within like a couple of days. Yeah a story. Yeah, it's a couple minutes It's hard for us to understand how AI will think because we're thinking from a human perspective Exactly and we don't know we don't know but if I'm you if I'm trying to kind of Pretend I'm this Omnipotent being I would get bored of earth really fast and leave Hmm Because I'm like, okay. I get earth a bunch of you know been there done that a bunch of creatures here humans birds yadda yadda yadda Might take you a while. I don't know you will get In terms of like the timeline of the universe. It would be fast for me. It's like I'm out man I need a rocket or something so new voyager new voyager. I'm gone. I'm going to the galaxy. I'm with a black hole Hmm Because I want to absorb your information. Right, right, right, right. Hmm. This was the premise of uh star trek Number one in the movie. What was it? There's a uh Alien of some sort coming towards earth His name was veager. Do you remember this? Oh one of my favorites veager It was wiping everything in its path and it was looking for its maker Ah It was sentient and uh, it didn't collide with another program, right? It was like a I don't remember the end It polite it collides voyager Was it not it was voyager at the core of this thing was the voyager that we had settled that we had said that Eventually it evolved in a getcha. It was but it collided with another alien Intelligence that was for agriculture purification on planets And so it got its program screwed up. I thought and so it looked at humans as Are you you guys they're just You're You're invasive interesting. I got to get rid of you guys I have a theory for if a god does exist It goes to like boss trim simulation theory. Mm-hmm. So it's like, okay Let's say I'm this omnipresent omniponent super being whatever and let's call it an ai As you mentioned as like, you know, who's my maker? Mm-hmm. I don't know. I know all this stuff I just don't know where I come from. Mm-hmm. Well, that was vigor. Yeah, but so why would I do though? I would then run simulations. Yeah. Yeah Is this the one where they grab they grab this thing? Is it you're talking the original star trek or the first movie the very very first movie Oh the first movie because they do a version of it Yeah, the first in star trek with with kirk and spock remember this thing Yeah, and it thinks kirk is its maker But his name is william and the maker with some other kirk remember i'm talking 1967 Oh in the show remember in the series. Okay. I don't remember that. Okay, but this was the motion picture Is that okay first movie? Well, I think that's what where they got the idea was from that episode Got it. And then kirk uses a bunch of logic on this thing You you think i'm some other kirk, but i'm william t kirk veager you have made an accident You have made an error correct the error sir. In fact, you've made two errors You didn't figure out your first error. That's just like he just and spock's like your logic was impeccable So and of course it self-complods But realistically what's most likely going to happen in the world. They're going to have like an elicium type of society. Mm-hmm too tiered. Mm-hmm Like the writings on the wall Rottenberry talks about that that's what star trek is about people that can afford it will get gene manipulation stem cells etc the whole nine yards live forever like vampires and use technology and you're going to have this kind of like And not just good genetics like we are the first generation of cyborgs, right? Yes, we we are it We are going to become what's called transhumanists And well, this is augmented intelligence, right? Yeah, but no, but I mean right here. We won't need You know the interface will be here We won't need to be touching things physically with our hands And like so many of our parts are already mechanical, right? You get oh, i'm going in for a hip replacement, right? Or You know, I had a cochlear transplant and a deaf person can now hear At what point are we going to augment that just make it better? Yeah, make it better Get rid of my windows 95 eyes. You know, I want the next level up like the blade runner stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so personally One of the thought experiments I give to students is If you were about to die, but could transfer your brain if you had uploaded, you know, the Ray Kurzweil Yeah hypothesis if you could upload it to a supercomputer and be preserved there Until we can take what the contents of your brain is and put it into an autonomous robot Would you do it? And a lot of my students say no Because they're religious right and they they think well, I'm going to die and I'm going to go to another place Why would I want to stay back down here as a robot human? Yeah, so that stops them So But I have an interesting theory So imagine depending on where we are on the timeline and fractals imagine We're actually we've already done the AI stuff like millions of years ago And so like AI evolves such a point where they're actually jealous of biological creatures Like because by large you have a different experience as a biological creature if I'm just like AI I'm tired. Well, like you drunk. Yeah, when you're a robot of AI, it's like, okay, like I I don't really experience a human experience. It's a special condition the human condition Eventually they get jealous like this is data. Yeah, it's like motherfuckers. I want to Yeah, I want to experience a human condition and they kind of like upload their intelligence back into humans to experience that huh It was the first episode of tng where what where riker meets data for the first time and data says something in the lines of Calls them out on something and riker turns back and says so you think that you're better than humans Because actually technically I am better than human But I would give it all up to be human. He does become human for a couple of days. Isn't q turning into a human does that's right? Yeah I like maybe that's who god is q q. Yeah, and there's no reason to believe a god has to be uh, You know Beneficent no. Yeah could be a nasty nasty god. Of course. I think if there's a god It would have a Sense of humor. Oh, we would hope it would make sense. I mean if we have a sense of humor Why wouldn't god have the capability of having a sense of humor important figure and mythology is a joker gods Really? Yeah, they're the most important. Tell me about that In a nutshell it tells you that there is no divine truth In the whole universe in the galaxy that we have you can't possibly say that this is the absolute truth It makes fun of it. Hmm Like there is no truth. There is no like this is it like. Oh, yeah You're telling me like this answer you have today is the most absolute answer and it's going to stand the test of time and that's that No, hmm Right, so it's it's life is one big dance. Hmm, right. Don't take it too seriously There can't be no absolute truth. So because of the shift of context, there's no definitive point of preferred Yeah, just one journey. Hmm. It's just one big journey, you know, that's it All right. Well, let's talk about death. Let's go for it So My son Jeremy's five And I'm reading to him. I wrote this in the in the cult That's right revision And I forget what we're reading and he says Yeah, what what happens to us when we die? At five, huh So I said, uh I don't know Nobody knows for sure What do you think happens and he says I'm five I have no idea. That's why I'm asking you Okay little aspy boy uh I don't know but I know what I would like And he said what's that and well to hang out with you and mom and matt forever. Hmm. Wouldn't that be cool? And he said that's what I'd like to and so that kind of ended it When he was about 18, Jeremy's pretty bright boy And so we started talking seriously about death And that was about the time, uh multiverse theory was really becoming popular And so we were sitting there one night and we said If there's universes outside of our universes outside of our universe And if there's an infinite amount of space and an infinite amount of time the universe or the multiverse never began It will never end and all things that are possible will eventually become actual Which means if it's possible for you and I to re-experience life again, however, which way we can possibly imagine it So our sun we die we all die and uh Half a billion years later our sun supernovas and wipes out our planet mars and venus all the way up to jupiter and whatnot and over time The core of our galaxy is a huge black hole that swallows up all the stars and reconstitutes it into another universe outside of ours or whatever And then all of our particles somehow given enough time, and I mean a trillion To a trillion exponential amount of time Then theoretically it is possible that we're going to have this conversation again or you and I are going to be reconstituted again in some way. So it's the great universal recycling hypothesis But if you think about it If there is an infinite amount of space and an infinite amount of time then theoretically we will never die because It will seem like trillions of years to our dead matter But to us as experiential beings correct, it'll be so quick It's a lot like the eponoshads and hinduism to talk about this called the injures web the web of injura Yeah But the horizons go into each other non-stop. It's an infinite loop right So people who are atheists sometimes come to me and I am a psychotherapist and they're bothered a little bit by this And I said well, you don't know You don't know what it's like. I mean socrates nailed it. He said either death is An eternal sleep In which case you're not around to piss and moan about your state exactly Or it's some type of passage to another state Which we can't possibly imagine given our feeble limited intelligences either way And if you want if it's nothingness And you want to stick around as long as you want then you better get on that transhumanism Train super fast and figure out a way to make yourself immortal or as immortal as you can while you can But if it turns out we're in a great recycling Uh universe then then so be it. There's not a whole lot we can do about that. You know what I mean? so It points us back to the time in which we're living right now As being the most important Time in our lives at any given point in our lives and to realize We could be dead We could have a massive myocardial infarction and drop dead here Right or drive home tonight and be in a severe car accident or whatever. Yeah So it it really Points shines a light on our current situation, you know this kind of living in the moment kind of thing Is yeah, you don't have to do it all the time not every second of every day Do you have to be in a kind of a a zen moment of appreciating the moment being in the moment? But you should take a bit of time to realize How Incredible it is for us to have evolved to this point. Yes to be able to have this conversation Which we could not have had Maybe 20,000 years ago It's interesting sometimes like I I swing from the pendulum like i'm not an atheist, but i'm not a religious person I'm like an agnostic. Yeah. I'm a spiritualist. Sure Um, but then I look at like I give you an example. It's like I'm like This is crazy. It's like for example the horse without the horse. We wouldn't have civilization, right? now as a mammal and as a Benefit to humans it can carry weight. It can move objects. It moves fast But why is a horse so beneficial to humans it sweats Many of the other fast mammals are run. Do not sweat nor can we tame it for animal husbandry Sort of you're telling me there's an actual perfect animal For us as a beast of bird. Yeah, and I think I'm like that's kind of crazy when you think about it We ate them before we used them. Yeah, so I'm like there's always like these weird examples and I'm like The more I think about it goes back to free will is like well who why am I designed this way? Right. Why am I thinking about it's like even my thoughts like that's a big one I'm speaking to Cal and speaking to chris and when I'm you know, I meditate here and there I'm a psycho not I like to do my psychedelics And I have these feelings and it's hard for me to even Uh detail in in in English in in language when I'm feeling you know, I mean You ever listen to tools rosetta stoned song? No, it's all it's all about a guy on DMT. Is it? Yeah, he knows he knows what he's experiencing But he doesn't have a pen correct. He can't get because words can't define the experience You can this is why when you go to nature when you're in awe you're like, I can't even describe to you Yeah, right and for me, it's like I'm always curious of Whether I'm on psychedelics or some meditation or nature is when I'm having these thoughts I'm always interested where these thoughts originate from. I've always had that question Are these original to me? Is this a collective from somebody else? Is it am I like a a radio antenna? So this is this is something I struggle with too like the uh, the paradox of science and still believing of a some creator myth of some sort and uh, the idea like why Have we evolved to be So easily seduced by the idea of a creator Like evolutionary wise. Like what what? We could have we could have evolved without it, couldn't Well, I mean, why was it so yeah as part of our evolution? I think it's a cohesive narrative story that brings groups of people together for unity Are you right about that? You know pre-dating monotistic religion like You know, it's yesterday news monotistic religion like let's go back to original religions of like the bone religions like the original religions was uh Or the practice of worship of nature Polytheistic correct. Yeah. So like wind and mountains and the sun perfectly consistent When my friend and I We're camping in Algonquin park one year and we go deep weigh it And we just got kicked. We got kicked in the tank. We uh Rain for five straight days I'd rather have snow It rains so hard our coglin waterproof matches turn to mush It's tough Just living in constant rain being wet all the time all the time all the time. Did you pray to god? No But and this is where the story's going On the fifth night after getting kicked so hard My friend saw you know in the when the simpsons start. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So you he saw some blue religious almost and then he saw a little more blue And then more blue and then the sun came out and he was giggling like an idiot. This is a big tough guy And he was down to just his pvc rain suit. No clothes. He's just naked under that. You know those yellow. Yeah That's all he's in because we can't dry stuff You know and the tense everything's wet wet wet wet and it's hard on you but then when the sun comes out and the Lake turns to glass and you're fishing for lake trout and you're just sitting there You can understand Why our ancestors were grateful I had no place to put my gratitude. I couldn't say thank you god because I I don't believe in one Thank you son. Thank you son. Son god. Thank you son For me son, right? Like you start to realize. Oh, okay. This is why this is why You know because fortuitous events would have like feeling right that feeling It's more than just gratefulness. It's more than like what what I don't know. Maybe I'm just over complicated Masal hyacinth needs like if you're looking at the fact of like Before agriculture right hunters hunters and gatherers that we we knew about weather patterns. We knew about Our current environment and where we are living right old context and like for us like that's our survival Oh, yes And so for me if I knew how the moon pattern was happening or the sun pattern or clouds or winds like if I'm If that's literally my life or death So, yeah, I'll pray to the sun. Yeah, like without the sun. I'm dead. Yeah And for me it's like very rational if you're looking back in hindsight of like why they worship the sun is like even today like Sometimes I just pause like the sun. I'm like if this thing disappeared Oh, we're done. We're dead or it blows up. We got eight minutes Eight minutes. That's it light hits us. Yeah Gee even george carlin Who's a hardcore atheist that if I had to believe in a god it'd be the sun It'd be the sun look at what it gives us and it asks for nothing. Yes, right? And it's not tax exempt So john oliver was talking about in his latest video the sun no taxes exemptions and churches Oh my god mega churches the religions. Yeah, and how they prey on like the weeks some of these Televangelists. Oh, it's horrible. That was a little horrible. I think it got videos He was showing videos of like guys saying, you know, if you have credit card debt At extra we can help with that isn't going to save you. You might as well plant seeds And some of these guys are such dicks put it on your credit card that extra that remaining thousand that you have Oh, they're horrible. There's such dicks They'll even tell you what they're going to spend the money on like jets. Oh, yeah, amazing They'll tell you and the people will still give the money. It's like I have one jet now But the lord wants me to have a second one. I we're going to watch it on on tuesday, uh tomorrow The reason why uh The original, uh, marthin luther. Yeah, why he wrote his 95 thesis hammered him on a church I don't need you man. I'll be at home. Good for him, man balls of titanium. I like the guy Like, uh, I think people need to read up on that a little bit more Yeah, for sure. But this is my whole point. I think like going back to a wilson's point It's like we're still living as paleolithic Oh, yeah, yeah, we're we're cavemen living in a very advanced. I always watch society I watched a show yesterday. Sometimes I like to cave person. Oh, yes. Sometimes I like to play politically correct. Yeah Sometimes I like to watch the show Cave people this guy goes around the world looking at prisons. He served like 15 years and he went to a prison in Papa New Guinea, so it shows on Netflix. I think it's called like worlds Yeah, world's most dangerous prisons. So i'm fascinated by cultures in different places Yeah, so this guy's in papa new guinea and he's interviewing this one guy in there for Things on death death row and he's like what are you in here for? He's like I killed witch It's like witch And so like for me, I'm I was fascinated by I'm like So I'm here I have the power I have more power in the hands of my hand the king of england did 100 years ago Oh easily and then more than nasa did in 69 and at the exact same time I have a guy halfway across the world still believe me in witches. Oh, dude Good. Yes Hey, let's So I applied for a huge grant. Yeah, I have a I had a a not-for-profit called the critical thinking project That's what took me to guatemala to teach teachers to teach critical thinking after a five decades long civil war And I applied to this huge macArthur grant 100 million To and we might want to think about reapplying in the next two years for this my idea was to create Mobile critical thinking units in countries where superstition is still strong to be able to go out into the rural areas like in africa albinism albinos are Killed killed. Yeah, and then their their fingers and stuff are used as for talisman You know sacred kind of religious Voodoo black magic. Yeah And so I wanted to put together these task forces kind of critical thinking mobile units that would go into these You know the hardest hit places for superstition And there's this group in india that's doing it extremely well This shaman goes into a village and does all this stuff and the people gather around And they can't believe it and then he takes his wig off He takes his makeup off does this and then he shows him exactly how he did it It says none of this was magic. None of this was what you thought it was. I'm not a magician I'm not a shaman. Don't believe this stuff. Okay. So there is an episode on star track Called who watches the watchers. Do you remember this? So they're paying attention to a pre-warp civilization Going through a period of their history where they're Slowly moving away from superstition and starting where they have the cloaked device That's right. They're looking they're observing this this town in real time in real time. That's a gigantic shaman show And something happens And the cover is blown and now they got to solve this problem, right? Because all of a sudden these people now are aware are aware and they believe in this new god the god of peccard He calls him the peccard the peccard. I saw the peccard. I saw he healed the dead I saw the peccard and so now they've they're in this conundrum this situation where they've literally put the The civilization backwards, right? They were on their way out and so much for the prime directive now and so much for the primary so peccard decides There's only one way. I need to I need to fix this damage and takes one of them the one that was now religious and brings him on board And shows him and says look we used to be like you Like this is this is the part that just like it's so messed up because we used to be like you You know we've evolved. You know, there's nothing special. Look. I'm I'm just like you, you know, I have blood I have respiratory system and after this whole like 10 minutes of the show of peccard trying to teach this woman That uh, you know, they will eventually evolve to being stargate like She she turns him says you are very wise the peccard Please I pray to you and she like she completely missed the boat after all of this After him trying to explain this whole she completely missed the boat and it goes back to what we were saying I don't know. I have an hour ago. Even when you give some people the evidence Are they willing? Well, we know for a fact in science that data does not convince people Well, and and this is it. How do you what do you do? We need to do what? So buddhism there's buddhism 101 here You cannot come with you cannot come as an outsider to do it. So you mentioned the shaman in india He came as an insider as an accepted person You need to approach it that way Interesting you have to have somebody they have rapport respect for that they can relate to that's right If you just show up as like like say i'm a gringo. I show up Well, look at look at ebola, right? They're blaming the people who will save their lives as the ones who are bringing it See So, I mean you have to do a houdini on them something like an inception. You have to meet them on their own term Correct. Yeah, you have to oh for sure. It's also like based on human psychology. It's like it's like egoism It's like, well, who are you to tell me otherwise? You're not one of us. You're some outsider right in the in the psychological field. This is called nudge, right? This is nudging people. I don't know if you guys have been to amsterdam I have or not. Yeah, the airport. Did you use the urinals at all? I think so actually they paint little flies In the urinal exactly where they want guys to pee so it reduces the amount of splash back It works. That's smart Obama brought him on for his administration to help. Yeah nudge. Yeah Interesting. We just need to hit the target. No target. We're all over the place Yeah, I think we can do that with traffic on the 400 series highways Traffic and I've met with the ministry of transportation. Yeah Nash John Nash beautiful mind. Okay. Yeah. So he figured it's game theory. Yeah So he figured out how pigeons when you run through them They don't all hit each other and sure and fall down, right? There's an algorithmic principle behind that So I took his ideas And I developed them into three basic algorithmic principles That if all people abided by in rush hour traffic everybody would get to where they want to go quicker Um always two car lengths in front of you at any given time Yeah Maintain the same speed of the person in front of you no matter what and stay in your lane Unless it's your time to get off you got to just stay in your lane. Stay in your lane. Yeah If everybody abided by that it's like pouring rice through a funnel, right? You do it nice and fairly casually it all gets through the funnel. You dump it And you get this huge backup of what I call undulating. That's the human behavior No one's going to follow those rules, but we're canadian. We're very good, right at cooperating Yeah, we're automated cars self-driving cars. That's all an automated car. It's gonna just keep that distance True all the way through And you can see you can start to see it and truckers already know it, right? You can tell truckers move from the trucking lane into the center lane And if you stay with the trucks That lane tends to do better, but as soon as it starts to do better, what happens is Yeah, right the undulating idiots get in and want to take up that space that allowed it to Move more freely than the ones that were bumper to bumper. I predict in our lifetime. It'll be illegal to drive as a human In some places. I don't know globally in some places. I think there's going to be a lot of people who are just I don't know. I mean that even listen people complain about guns. People complain of guns So I'm like, I don't know when's the last time you check be many people fucking die of car accidents We suck at driving. Yeah, it's getting worse every year with All of my all of my patients all of my clients for psychotherapy with my one Separate client our motor vehicle accident victims. Holy shit. All of them. Wow, really all of them And it's like the same story. It's like Why didn't they stop like why didn't they stop and I was like, I can't answer that I can't answer that But the reason why I'm doing psychotherapy in the trenches right now Is to see if some of my ideas and cognitive therapy Are applicable and actually do have Beneficial value to these people the relational systemics when you try to explain To people the reason why accidents occur. Yeah, it's like if they've seen pulp fiction They can better understand causal influences of well, buddy got up that morning and whatever was going on in his world For whatever reason he was looking at his phone when he shouldn't have been and he plowed Right into the back end of you and now you feel like this And in our legal systems those people never see each other again. There's never closure Right healing. There's no healing so bizarre. There's no healing They hate the other person in many cases and it's like well, I can understand that Well, where is he now? He's driving around He's fine. His insurance is taking care of everything and I'm not I had a great career. I was doing this I was doing that and now I can't and it's like Not the easiest thing to try to to to get somebody to realize why This occurred to them when it did but when when I use a relational systemic model of information Some of them are and the majority of them are very Adaptable to to be able to then see themselves the day of that accident in connection with all of those non-linear factors That were going on at that specific time Where if they had started out 10 seconds later that day Probably wouldn't have been in that accident. So there's no fingers to point at anybody. There really isn't It's just this huge deterministic causal chain of events of which you are unfortunate enough to be at a locus point Where there was a convergence of non-linear factors that led to your situation. I always bring up this book I recommend people to read his uh, victor frankl's man search for meaning. Hmm. It's like listen I've heard about this. Oh, it's fun. One of the best books everyone should read. It's like I can't control what chris does. Mm-hmm. I can't control that. I got hit in a car accident It just Sheer chance. Yeah, you can be More aware blaze pascal once said, you know chance favors the prepared mind. Yes, so You know, I'm a basketball player and what is that but a series of non-linear events with 10 guys. Yes And then you have to anticipate Not where everybody is but where everybody is about to be So I know when I see this guy heading to the hoop this way, but I'm looking that way I know I'm passing the ball right past the ear of the guy who's on me right into buddy's hands Because you play it enough, right? You're comfortable patterns patterns of non-linearity And if you can do that while you're driving you might be a you know that much more capable of trying to Anticipate somebody else's screw up and get away from that person Yeah, I tell my children when they're crossing the street to always look At the face of the people Driving don't look at the car Look at their faces because that's when you can tell that somebody's paying attention I mean if they make eye contact with you, they know that you're there But if they're like off on their own going back to what chris was saying with his patients and You know, there's there's the fact that what happened to you? And Yes, it's a horrible thing to happen I think the more you spend in the past thinking about it's detrimental to your psyche But going back to victor frankl's book man search for meaning the thing that we can't control right now is our response to exactly That's the only and we now well We can control some of us can better than others Most people react but the thing is we can at least be Consciously aware that we have an ability to manipulate And be better be able to understand Because it's not it's not actually the response. It's you understanding what you're feeling And digesting and assimilating that feeling and working with it And then I try to teach them how I I know you use the term manipulate And I used to use it as well And then I felt maybe it has too much of a negative connotation. Yeah. I just call it navigate Yeah, it's better word So I just say now we need to navigate you through those systems Because the pattern is almost always the same for motor vehicle accident victim. They're in somatic pain Right. They've got a neck injury a back injury, whatever Um that pain Disrupts their sleep. So now they're not sleeping property properly And now that exacerbates the pain that they're in and that gets them depressed Yes, and now they're suffering from PTSD because of the accident that they're in they're having in vehicle Anxiety having great difficulty now. It's happened to my mom. Is that right? And uh, you know a little bit of a tangent, but the insurance world is just like motor vehicle accidents the bitch to navigate like you pay into this system And then something bad actually does happen to you and in this case it did happen to my mom And you're told you can't get better because if you get better, they're not going to give you a nickel sure like You may be in pain, but you need to keep the pain. Yeah, it gives a lot of culture. Yeah You you can't work you can't you can't try to fix yourself. Yeah It's and of course the insurance company on the other side is trying to delay it So something that could easily be dealt with. Yeah. Oh, yeah within a week and say, okay This person actually has a problem. We we need to just give her enough money for the next six months Yep, then the physio centered a psych. Yeah, they would rather spend two to three years And spend that money on lawyer fees to not give that person their just cause and so some people will either Try to fix them themselves And in my mom's case, she just ended up Forgoing whatever them out because she just she didn't want to wait. Yeah, right She wanted to get on with her life, but she she went through that right? She couldn't sleep She had back aches back aches. She couldn't think Clearly there's cognitive decline decision-making impairment. She didn't understand. She's like, I can't think properly I've got bikers breaking down and they're like, why am I crying? I said Once your brain goes through a concussion the way in which people get better varies And one of the most common things we see with Head injuries is They call it empathic emotional outbursts and It confuses them and it scares them right because it's like I was a rock. I said, well You got to understand your brain has been bruised essentially It's gone banged around inside your skull and there's been damage and every person's concussion They're going to experience it a little bit different, right? So there's post concussion syndrome and tbi or traumatic brain injury And what we can do is we can start to chronicle Triggers of what makes you go into these outbursts and then we can look for patterns to try to anticipate When you're going to be in that You know sequence of events again so that you're better prepared to be able to deal with it when it occurs So it's it's amazing seeing the effects that car accidents have on people from fender benders To people who have lost limb Guys who have been in comas for weeks You know airlifted and on desk doorstep And the different ways in which they respond and come out of it and react and It's just incredible seeing the you know that whole human emotional spectrum Well, I think we'll wrap it up over here Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show If people want to get in touch with you learn about what you're doing. What's the best resource? I guess the critical thinking's uh critical thinking solutions Okay, I'll guys I'll make sure I leave a footnotes for that and show notes both in youtube and itunes and cal Best resource for people to get in touch with you Uh pixel dreams.com. All right guys. Thanks again for coming on the show and guys if you're listening this on youtube iTunes you tunes Guys are listening this on itunes. Make sure to go over to me or prove the leader of you And if you're watching this on youtube, please leave a comment and I'll see you guys soon. Take care