 and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, and Wana, New York. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper, and the title of today's episode is International Law Initiatives to Save Life, Protecting Human Rights and Preventing Harm in the Future. Today, I'm joined by Kirk Boyd, CEO and founder of Eleanor Lives, and he's live in Warsaw, Poland. This is a historic time with moral clarity and a movement for courage and consciousness for human rights. Kirk, thank you for joining us. Glad to be here, Joshua. What's it like there in Warsaw to see what's going on? It's exciting. I would say that it's a combination of really just abhorrence at the travesty of the things that people are seeing on a daily basis. But at the same time, you're seeing a realignment that is really pretty inspiring that the people here, if you ask them, are you Polish? Of course, we're in Warsaw. There's an immediate yes. But just as quickly, if you ask them that they're European, they certainly say, absolutely. And that's it. There's a different mentality now. There's a region is really coming together behind as a result of this. Yes, you can actually see that the tyranny versus the truth, the issues that we've been looking at regarding rule of law versus just autocracy, this is really what's coming out. And the goodwill around the globe now requires good law. And we do see some action. That's a brilliant line. Part of the interruption. You know how it is with television, there are only a few things that we're going to leave behind for people, but that line has got to be one of them. Well, I'm glad that you appreciated that one. And the good news is there's action supporting it. Just this moment this morning, the General Assembly suspended a member state from the Human Rights Council for only the second time since its creation. So you need two thirds of the members present in voting. And if that member, they decide commits gross and systemic violations of human rights, they can be removed. And one of the most powerful speeches by was by Ukraine's UN ambassador. And he said the yes vote would quote, save Human Rights Council in many lives around the world and in Ukraine. But a no vote was pulling a trigger and means a red dot on the screen read as the blood of the innocent lives lost. And as you can see, 93 countries voted in favor, 24 voted no, and 58 abstained. And this is just the third resolution voted on the GA since the invasion on February 24. And this will be huge in a couple of ways. One, Moscow is normally one of the most local members weakening with global law order. So they're no longer able to speak and vote at the three sessions every year. So we think this is kind of crucial. What else do you think about this vote and what that signifies there, Kurt? Well, I think you've pinpointed it, Joshua, and that not only is this important for Ukraine, but that this is important for the council. I really am very ecstatic about this outcome because you and I have been there. You've been there for, I think, 20 years straight or more. And I know I've been there for 14 years straight. And so this is a big step for the council. And I think a very positive one because a lot of people have been feeling that the council is really disingenuous a lot of the time about what it's doing. And so this is a very genuine response to the atrocities that are occurring and the direct attack on the rule of law. Yes, it's definitely, we can see that humanity must really consider and comprehend the normative, the evil taking place today in the Ukraine. And it's exciting to see, as you said, what's happening at the Human Rights Council, but also the International Criminal Court. That came into force in 2002 to prosecute four main crimes, genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes of aggression. So they're already saying that ICC Chief Prosecutor, that there's prima facie evidence that Russia has committed at least three of those. What is your perspective on this important aspect of what's taking place with the Rome statue, which is moving in one way towards having an international mechanism to hold people accountable and hopefully deter them from taking actions against innocent civilians? You know, Joshua, it's great having this conversation. I think for the viewers and the timing is that there are two pieces to this. One, we can all recall how early in the early 2000s that the US was refusing to support the ICC and we were pretty despondent about that. And a lot of people have felt that the ICC really hasn't materialized. But what we're seeing is, and I really think this goes across the board, including all the work that you've done over a lifetime, our career, is that the institutional building has actually been more significant than we thought. That those ICC people are out there, that we are talking day after day about the criminal court and the violations of war crimes is a really positive thing. It shows you that the institutions are a little bit deeper than we thought, Joshua. That's the number one thing I would say. And that's important. We do see the current US president calling Putin a war criminal. We also see even phrases such as the butcher of Uka. And it is exciting to see the engagement level and the rule of law being pushed up. But it's also so appalling to see what has been done to innocent civilians and to see the death in the street. And what I think that's so important is some of the work that you've been doing is always looking not at what's happening today, but to prevent it in the future. Can you tell us a bit about the vision you have of an international bill of rights? And also, one step of what that reality is, is why you're in Warsaw. You're there looking at a case in the European Court of Human Rights. Can you share how the regional system in Europe has been set up and why it's a great model for a global bill of rights so that we could then have a higher degree of deterrence and we could be focusing on prevention instead of trying to unfortunately clean up the blood of what's happening now? We want to make sure any person who is in power considers, would I actually go to jail for this? Would I actually face consequences? And maybe you could share some of those aspects about what it's like being there in Poland on the front lines of freedoms from tears, the case you're bringing up at the European Court, and how that's a great model for the international bill of rights. Well, I'd be glad to, Joshua. And it's really what you've asked covers a two step response. Okay. And I think the first one is I want to say that if this isn't about my vision or yours, either you and I, we've worked together for many years and we both know well that what we're working on rests on the shoulders of those post World War II. And Eleanor Roosevelt was a key person in that mix being the chair to develop an order whereby the rule of law really could prevail. And so that's really, I think it's clear that we don't feel like we've got some epiphany, but we do feel like we can look back in order to see how to go forward because they really had a plan. It wasn't a vision. I've been very clear with people these days that it was much more and the thing that's so exciting at this point in time and I'd say this particularly for anyone listening or watching even after we have this discussion is that after every war, there's a moment of opportunity. After every war, there's a moment of opportunity. And Eleanor Roosevelt and Franklin too, they really saw that as did others. They were planning for the United Nations Charter and the idea of an international bill of rights years before World War II ended. Okay. And you can look back even further to after World War I, Eleanor was a big fan of the League of Nations and having a world court. So this is an evolutionary process. And I think that's the first answer to your question so that everyone's clear that we don't claim to have some sort of epiphany. This is a continuation. Okay. On the second part, and I'm really glad to talk about this because you know me, Joshua, I'm a trial lawyer too, an appellate lawyer. So you know, I've argued in there, I'm mostly in trial courts, I've argued at every level, including that US Supreme Court, they just got a new Supreme Court judge today, right? And I'm a big, big fan of the actually being able to enforce rights. I think that's when they come to their full fruition. And that's what I'm seeing here in Poland. That's what's really exciting is that here we've got a great trial judge in a case. And I'm not going to go into all the details. I want to focus on the rule of law piece of it. And you can ask anything. I'll be glad to answer it. But the rule of law piece of it is that we're using the law of the European Convention on Human Rights at the regional level. And in Poland, they were saying, no, that doesn't apply here. We're just, we go by our domestic law. But the ship that's been taking place for the rule of law in the world today. And this is why Europe is more advanced than the rest of the world combined. I just came from a dinner with lawyers and the Polish restaurant tours who are talking about, oh, Europe's got all these conflicts within it. But now they're coming together. Well, the truth is Europe is more advanced than any other regional part of the world. And if you think of Asia, you think of, well, you think of some different countries and you think of perhaps some ethnic background or geography. Or if you think of South America, you think something similar. But when you think of Europe, when you think of European, you think also a cultural integration. And that's really a fantastic thing when it comes to the rule of law. So in my case right now, you've got a trial judge who's using this regional court law in the courtroom in order to hold the Minister of Justice for Poland accountable, who's saying, the minister is saying, oh, no, the regional law doesn't apply. And the trial judge who cherishes his independence is using that regional law. So I'm sorry for such a long answer. But what I want to say is the plan that they had was for these kinds of regional systems that you're very familiar with, because you're one of the few people I know who's been to just about all of them. And then they actually work. I'll just leave it at that. That's the final thing is that they work. And at this past week in the courtroom, it's been really a wonderful experience to see that this whole plan and the system actually works well. And it's worth applying in other regions too. Right. I think the main point there is that European Court of Human Rights was born out of the European Convention on Human Rights, really, to say never again. And I think Rene Casan is who you're quoting saying it works because it was to set up a regional human rights system that would then hold a universal standard and make sure that if a country falls and slips us, all countries do it sometime with human rights, that then there's a regional perspective and a body to then make these decisions and rulings from Strasburg. But more importantly, that they were effective and that they would actually be recognized and implemented at home based on a ruling not made in their own national capital, but in the regional capital of Strasburg, in this case, where, of course, too often blood was shed and it was seen as a side of horrible violence just like what we're seeing today in the Ukraine. Right. And that does the sad thing, Joshua, is that as much as we're talking about some positive things that are coming out of this, is that we really have to admit to some of the weaknesses over the past 50 years. We really need to do that. And one of them is that we haven't strengthened these regional courts enough, Russia's part of that European court of human rights. And obviously Putin's just totally disregarding that court. And it's unfortunate because there were about 30 years there where Russia was abiding by the decisions. And so this is a setback, too, in addition to the fact that there are good prospects. We can see where we didn't do enough. And it really brings me up to one of those moments this week was the Grammys where they had John Legend seeing three, but also Zelensky appearing and he said, the war, what is more opposite of music? And what you're trying to create with an international bill of rights is really to get music to the ears of those who fear one day being attacked and in the situation of Ukraine. Why we try to set up an international rule of law in a way is to look forward, to make sure that no one faces that and make sure that never again is real. Can you share some of the ideas of Eleanor and this idea of an international bill of rights and why that would be creating a fence in a way to protect innocent people going forward in the future? I'll give you a great example, Joshua. There was a time when Trump, when he was president, was caught unaware that the microphone was rolling and he mumbled to himself as he was getting prepared to speak in Montana. Globalists locked them up. He actually said that to himself. Now, there's nothing so special about Trump. Putin would do that. She would do that. She would do that. Humans will do that. When people see that people are being beheaded in butchers, they're shocked, but remember that German soldiers threw live children onto fire pits and in California, they paid $5 a scalp for Indian women. This is just an ongoing thing that we have to deal with. The important thing is at this point in time, when Eleanor, I think, would say to us, she wouldn't be surprised, Joshua. If I just started startling as this is, sadly, I'm not surprised. We haven't gone far not. You keep alluding to the fact that when you get to go to court and when you actually can stop this, that has to be our goal. That's our primary goal with the not-profit Eleanor Lives is to get people to find together the unite enough to be able to come up with a better structure so that these kinds of people, if Trump says, globalists lock them up, we have a strong federal judiciary that's going to stop that. I still believe that. But we have our own, that was our own instances of despotism when he said that the elections were not, we're all rigged and he lost 82 cases straight. That was the rule of law. That was the rule of law. That's the moment that we're working towards. That's the one that's got to happen because they're always going to be more like them. Always. Unfortunately, that's human nature. Eleanor, I would say that. Yeah. And one of the things Zelensky said at the end, we said, build the silence with your music till it today. Tell our story. Tell the truth about war and then peace will come. What's that music that you want to fill the world with regarding an international bill of rights and why that's so important to prevent a future Ukraine? Can you share a bit about that? Yeah. The music to spread is that we're all singing in a chorus. I don't think there's anything more important than this globe that we have on our website. And I think Max might be able to pull it up. But that website, we're going to have this big event for the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in San Francisco in the War Memorial Building. Gosh, you and I are working on this. And one of the primary things is this globe that you see is going to have a big holographic image that can be in all the various places where the celebrations are taking place. And I don't think there's anything more important than for everyone who's listening to this conversation, then to go on that globe, it takes 30 seconds to put in your name and your country to show your support for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on its 75th anniversary. And it may not seem like all that's so significant, but that's what's missing. We have to get our focus. We have to get our collective cloud together. And so I'd encourage everyone to do that. And I think that that's the next step is that to deal with these things, we have to have a movement, whether it's authoritarianism or climate change. No, and I remember an exciting aspect is Bob Ray, he's the Canadian Ambassador to UN. He carries a copy of the UN Charter in his pocket. And I know you carry one of those as well as well as the US Constitution. And he said, though, that really, Putin is Stalin's horrendous successor, and that his drive to restore empire, tyranny and dominance has got to be blocked. There you go. And maybe what you can do, Kirk, is share the International Bill of Rights and its drafting and what you hope it will accomplish in a way of setting up that fence, not pulling the dead bodies, but really setting up a system that then would be existing there. I would love to, Joshua, and I don't think there's a better way to show that than in front what I'm holding up here is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is the most translated document of other than the Bible of all time. This booklet right here in my hand, the Universal Declaration, this is what we're celebrating on the 75th anniversary, and it's worthy of celebration, but it's also worthy of reaffirmation. Okay. And that's where the next one comes in, which is the European Convention on Human Rights. And this is the one that I was using last this past week in the courtroom in Poland. You see, we look, I can't tell you how many hundreds of marches I've been in throughout my lifetime, along with my sons, even back to when they were in strollers. Okay. So I'm big on protests. But at the same time, you got to be able to show up in the courtroom to think that you can have one without the other is really a mistake. And that's what this one is, you can actually, lawyers, they stand up and whether it's in Romania or Poland, or Britain or France, they stand up and they use this, even now. Okay. And then this last one, this is our draft of an international bill of rights. And what this is, is it's an amalgam of all the fantastic work that's been done by the UN. And if you look at the picture there of Eleanor on the cover, she's holding the Universal Declaration and we both know without going into too much detail here, Joshua, there's an article in there, article 28, because that what she's holding is not enforceable in courts. But they anticipated that there would be the time and we're there now when there can be documents that are enforceable. And that's what this one's about. So in addition to that people putting in their name and their country and becoming a light for rights, that's the first step, that first 32nd step. If anyone else also wants to contribute their thinking about what would be included in that document of enforceable rights, it's all there on our website. It's very easy. And you couldn't have anything like this, we haven't. This is version 13, that's 13 years of getting input. So I didn't write this, you didn't write this, Eleanor didn't write this. It's a combination of people over decades. And it gets better with every contribution. So hopefully some of the viewers will think about that too. That's a great point. And while the people in Ukraine are showing remarkable fortitude in the face of the invasion, everybody has asked, what can I do? And that's just one example that we can look at creating an international bill of rights that then would exist to make sure that it would prevent future dictators trying to take actions such as what has been done. And there's huge signs, of course, of the challenges. We see seven forest fires around Chernobyl's nuclear power plant within 10 kilometers, extremely dangerous. We see the really mounting evidence of indiscriminate killings. We also even see those some signs of cracking where people in Russia are trying to stand up even under horrible conditions, even holding signs with nothing written on it, still being arrested. But we've also seen some leaders step away from Putin, not enough. We see Russians envoy to the international organization and sustainable development actually resigning. And this is the first sign of public discord within the country's ruling elites. He was one there negotiating the Paris Agreement. But this is really a time for us to think about what's going on with the conflict there, but make the connection, because we see the price of gas going up. We see all these challenges. But the truth is no dictator could hold us accountable or try to bribe us if we're on solar. And what I think we can say as we get towards the end is going back to the Human Rights Council. The Human Rights Council did have an urgent debate. They did vote to make sure that there would set up a commission of inquiry. And that commission of inquiry is already established. It's actually led by Eric Mose of Norway. And what's interesting about Eric Mose, he's a former judge of the European Court of Human Rights you're talking about. And he's a former president of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. And of course, we're just commemorating that genocide, unfortunately. And he also served as a judge on the Norway Supreme Court. So you see this individual really Mose representing some of the work you're talking about, but also what we're aspiring for going forward. Yeah, great example. That's an example of how things run a little deeper than we realize. They haven't run deep enough. So I know I find myself feeling at times that everything's inadequate. But the truth is, this is a heartening moment. If the rest of us continue to rise around it, that's the key. Yeah. And it is exciting when you look at, because Mose served at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. And that's of course, where we saw almost a million people killed in Butcher with machetes. But one of his other panel members is Doomsar. And he's the human rights ombudsperson of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the other is Palovo de Grif and he's a Colombian who was the first UN justice investigator. So we see people from areas who have lived through these horrors that we now know are being experienced by the Ukrainians who are fleeing to Poland where you are now. And why I think most of them care so much is to say, we don't want this happening to anyone else. And we know what we've experienced, but we have to have rule of law to prevent that going forward. Right. That's what I really hear here in Warsaw, but you just described, Kasia. And one of the interesting aspects, of course, is this could ripple. And it's understanding because Russia and Ukraine represent more than half of the world's supply of sunflower oil. We already have a friend here in Hawaii who's been requested to produce sunflower oil and they have huge sunflower fields and exciting biodiesel, but they don't have that much. So we have to be able to see all the connections and be able to avoid that. And that's really what an international bill of rights is, is to set up a global system to make sure that all human rights are respected for all everywhere in the world. Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Kirk, for appearing today and taking time out of your schedule there in Poland, bringing up the European Court of Human Rights, but also talking about the vision of building on that regional model for a global one that then would exist, because now everyone's saying, we have to set up a tribunal. We have to do something against Putin. But what you're calling for is an international instrument to already exist. So we don't have to do that. It can't exactly. That's such a key point. And in closing, I'm really, it's astute that you make it, Joshua, because if we can't just have these ad hoc responses, we have to go deeper and more structural. That was the intent of Eleanor and the others with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I hope that all the viewers out there will mark it now for December 10, 2023 and think about how they're going to celebrate this, how they're going to even celebrate ahead of time and preparation for it. And just the final thought goes to you, Joshua, as the host of this. At times, I lose my own recognition of just how deeply planted the institutional changes have been. And as someone who has shown up at those human rights mechanisms year after year, planting those seeds, building that machinery. Thank you, because we're in a moment now where this is not going to be easy. But I'm seeing the byproduct of all that hard work as creating a possibility for us. So thanks. Well, we hope when we gather in San Francisco, the site of the creation of the UN Charter on December 10, 2023, that the war in Ukraine will be over. And hopefully the people who have caused these harms will be facing jurisdictional actions to hold them accountable for those crimes against humanity and war crimes. Thank you so much, Kirk, for being with us. We run out of time, but we look forward to continue the conversation in the future. Mahalo. Great. Mahalo. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.