 Good afternoon everyone and welcome to this IEA online event on LGBTI equality in the EU, which coincides with the launch of the European Commission's strategy on LGBTI equality in the Union for the period 2021-25. My name is Peter Gunning. I'm moderating this event which falls within the scope of the IEA's current Global Europe project. We're delighted to have two distinguished speakers with us today on our panel, Minister Thomas Byrne and Michael O'Flaherty, whom I will introduce shortly. You'll be able to join this discussion in a variety of ways through Zoom, of course, and you may submit questions which we will come towards the end of the session through the Zoom Q&A function. You can also follow the event on Twitter at IEA and if you're watching on YouTube, the discussion or the chat function there can also be used to submit questions. The entire event is live streamed and is on the record. So Minister Byrne will speak to us first. Thomas Byrne is the Irish Minister of State for European Affairs with responsibilities both at the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and has been in that role since July of this year. He is a member of our Irish Parliament for me, East, and he has also been a member of the Irish Senate and is a qualified solicitor. Mr Byrne has a great deal of experience compressed into the period between July and December from the preparation that he will be involved in for meetings of the European Council, most recent one last Thursday and Friday, and his representation of Irish views in the General Affairs Council, as well as through, I'm sure, the Minister's interactions with his counterparts in the governments of the 27. Michael O'Flaherty is a distinguished name in fundamental rights both in Ireland and in Europe and indeed internationally. He is with us today in his capacity as the director of the European Union's Fundamental Rights Agency, which is based in Vienna, and which happily has this year celebrated its 10th anniversary, I think. Michael has a distinguished career both on the academic side in Nottingham and in his native Galway at the National University of Ireland. He has worked in a UN context both in headquarters and in the field. And he has chaired the Northern Ireland Chief Commissioner, he was of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. And he is a solicitor of the Irish courts, and he has a Doctor of Laws from the National University of Ireland. The Fundamental Rights Agency is a most valued organ of the European Union, providing it is a center of both reference and excellence for the promotion and protection of fundamental rights throughout the Union, and I'm sure that it's a contribution to the work which has gone into the Commission's recent publication of its strategy is very, very substantial. Without further ado, I'll invite Minister Byrne to address you first for about 15 minutes, and that would be followed by an address from the director of the FRA Michael O'Flaherty. Minister Byrne, the floor is yours. Sure, we say the screen. We're in unprecedented times and we're doing these all the time and I suppose we're losing the ability to meet each other personally, but actually in my experience we're getting greater numbers attending many webinars. I think that's one advantage if there is an advantage in these dreadful pandemic times. I just want to thank you, Peter, for chairing it and it's an honour to speak in your kind words. And to thank the IIEA for the excellent work that you continue to do, and it's done throughout this year. I mean, it's extraordinary, the list of events that you have with high profile speakers. I know that you had hoped to have my French counterpart Clermont Beaune last Monday, I believe, at the Institute. He told me he's very keen to come to Ireland as soon as possible again, so perhaps hopefully when a deal is done. I had no doubt that you would be extending an invitation again to him if you can. And delighted to join Michael as well and I'm constantly promoting careers in Europe and the European Union and associated institutions and European bodies and I'm glad to see Michael leading light in that regard, promoting human rights in Ireland, the EU and indeed the world itself, because we are the beacon, we shall be the beacon for human rights around the world. When we see the rule of law under trash in democracies, when we see human rights under trash in democracies, somebody has to shine, hold that torch. We all need to do that, but Michael surely has a very important leadership function there. And again, it's just another example and I've been given these every day to both to school children and to college graduates and to young professionals in terms of what Irish people can achieve and what we can actually do at the European level. And it's not just about a career, but actually, as I said, shining that light and promoting what are the fundamental values of the European Union treaties, which are really corresponding with the fundamental values. And in principle of our own constitution as interpreted by the courts and developed actually throughout the decades. Today's discussion is one that affects each and every one of us. We are all affected when we live in an unjust society. We all have a role to play in promoting and protecting LGBTI plus rights. And I think it's never been more important to add that we do that, that we heighten the profile of that issue, such as in these webinars, and indeed I'm encouraging my my my doll and channel colleagues to heighten the profile of this issue in the national parliament as well. I think we think there's a lot of work we don't, as you said, to shine that light. But I'd like to reflect briefly on the situation in Ireland. I think our society has changed a lot. Over the past 30 years, we have seen major progress. We've seen changes of laws, but they, as I say, an Irish average known and change of mentality as it was. And it's worth remembering it's only in 1993 that Marguerite Quinn, following on from the case brought by David Norris, decriminalizing doll Aaron, same sex sexual activity that can be hard to believe but it is still illegal in many countries in the world as well. So positive progress has continued to be made of course since then with a range of legislation that has gradually made it easier for LGBTI plus people to live full and free life in Ireland. But there's work to be done, of course, and certainly work to be done around Europe. I'm sure many of us can recall the celebrations in May 2015 when Ireland became the first country in the world to have a popular and was a popular vote for marriage equality. The vote and the celebrations that followed were an important demonstration of the progress that we have made as a society, but also a signal as well to the wider world and I think a really important signal. Because that's certainly achieved. As I said, it was international first but it certainly achieved international prominence and paved the way then for some other societies to respond positively as well. Unfortunately, it didn't pay the way for different societies. There's certain other societies have maybe gone in reverse on these issues. There has been progress, but as I said already I'm conscious that there's still much more to do. And now the responsibility is not placed on the enormous shoulders of courageous individuals. And I certainly see that when I see David Norris and I'm glad to have a good conversation with him last week in the dog canteen. You know, the work that he did over the years and many others aside as well as the suffering as well that some people did many LGBTI people had to suffer over the years because of societal attitudes. But the government of Ireland and the governments of many other countries were actively promoting and protecting LGBTI plus rights all around the world. Obviously Ireland's been on a journey ourselves and we want other people to buy that ticket to join that journey. And protecting and promoting the rights of LGBTI plus people is a key priority under our strategy, the global Ireland's foreign policy for changing world. So our efforts so as we see them on the international stage are strengthened when we act together with fellow EU member states, as majority are of like mind, and indeed the institutions of the EU. Irish missions then cooperate closely on the ground with EU delegations and embassies of other EU member states to advocate for the rights of LGBTI plus persons, including advocating for the criminalization of homosexuality where it exists. And against this criminalization where this is contemplated. Our ambassadors and diplomatic officials around the world I have to say is someone with a right down exactly what they're doing in this area. It really is extraordinarily heroic work and a great way for them. But the EU has an important role to play obviously as a region that upholds the rights of individuals. But as a union, we have to continue to make sure our own house is in order. We have to develop to the standard set in our treaties and of our own rhetoric. That's not to say that we can only raise questions of orders once we're perfect, but encouraging progress externally must go hand in hand with securing and encouraging progress internally. So the recognition of the need for internal purpose is very important. So it's really pleased to see that the European Commission was publishing this new strategy, which Ursula von der Leyen had committed to on her taking up some positions as president of the European Commission. Ireland welcomes that the launch by the European Commission of the EU that to be to use quality strategy 2020 to 2025. It's particularly important in the face in open some countries increasing discriminations and not just in the EU, but worldwide on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. So Ireland very strongly supports the European Commission and its work in this area as the guardians of the treaties. This is the Commission's job to ensure that member states live up to the value of the European Union as enshrined in our treaties. It's an extremely important step that the Commission has lost this document that addresses the inequalities and challenges facing LGBTQ people in order to move to a union of equality. The strategy outlines some worrying statistics of increasing discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity, and sex expression and sex characteristics within the European Union. I mean, that's right. Ireland welcomes the target actions across four pillars, attacking discrimination against LGBTQ people, ensuring their safety, building inclusive societies, and leading the call for equality around the world. The European Union and equality in Europe as well. The European Union must have a strong voice in multilateral fora, and we must lead the call for equality around the world. LGBTI plus persons continue to face discrimination of violence in many countries, discriminatory laws criminalize same sex relations in some countries, exposing people to criminal sanctions on the basis of their identity, and in several countries to death penalty. To this end, Ireland will continue to raise its voice and do everything within our power in support of LGBTI plus rights international. Ireland strongly supports efforts in international human rights forums, including Human Rights Council and the UN General Assembly Third Committee, which address LGBTI plus rights. In 2019, we joined the Equal Rights Coalition, an intergovernmental coalition of 42 countries dedicated to advancing the human rights of LGBTI plus people and promoting inclusive development. We also welcome the commitment in the strategy that the Commission would support member states to develop national plans on LGBTI Q equality. This is an area where Ireland has placed high priority on recent years and made significant efforts. In 2019, the Department of Justice launched our own inclusion strategy. The overall aim of this strategy is to target discrimination, promote inclusion, and improve quality of life and well-being for LGBTI plus people. In 2018, the Department of Children produced a national LGBTI plus youth strategy, which is the first of its kind in the world. This strategy seeks to ensure a cross-governmental approach to enhance the lives of young LGBTI plus people and address some of the key challenges they may face in their day-to-day lives. These strategies provide an important written statement of our intentions in this area, but the challenges can't be underestimated. I'm confident that working in consultation and collaboration with representatives of groups and indeed the LGBTI plus community, we will be able to make even further progress. At home and abroad, there is still much work to be done and lots of challenging conversations to come and I have no doubt that the questions will be challenging. I assure you today that we're committed to promoting and protecting human rights and living up to our responsibilities at home within the EU internationally. I look forward to hearing more from Michael in the broader EU context and look forward to hearing questions from everyone joining us online. Without reservation, I would say, and maybe the questions can follow on from this, the issue of the particular discrimination that's going on in Poland is striking a chord with a lot of people around Europe. It attracts huge media attention and I think that is one way to try and get progress there, get change in Poland. It's very worrying, it's very sad and it's not really what Europe should be about for a month. Minister, thank you very much indeed for a very wide-ranging introduction to the theme and you've brought up points which I imagine we will be returning to during the last mentioned one there in the context perhaps even last week's European Council. I'm now happy to give the word to the director of the Fundamental Rights Agency, Michael O'Flaherty. Michael, you're welcome to take the floor. Peter, thank you very much indeed and thanks to you, to you Minister Byrne and to the IEA for today's event. I'm very happy to be with you. I would wish it were physical, but there'll be another opportunity I guess once we get out of this crazy year. Dear friends, 13 years ago, almost to the day, I was in Jogjakarta in Indonesia. I was spending a few days there among a group of human rights specialists to map out the application of existing human rights law with regard to the lived experience of people of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities. We developed what became known as the Jogjakarta Principles, which played a role in shining a light on the extent to which LGBTI people were not being paid attention to within the general mainstream promotion and protection of human rights and how as a result they were being shoved to the very age edges. We had some success with those principles, but even with that success, I could not have believed 13 years ago where I'd be eight years ago. When I was at the event, the minister mentioned I was in the upper castle yard for the count of the vote in the referendum on marriage equality. It's hard to believe that so much could have been achieved in so few years, but for all the euphoria of the upper castle yard in 2015, of course nobody claims that things were suddenly made perfect with equal enjoyment of human rights for everybody. And we've been increasingly worried in an EU setting over recent years of a decline going backward as much as a failure to progress across so many aspects of human experience. It's on that basis that we did a major survey, the results of which we published just last May on the experience of what it's like to be LGBTI and living here in the European Union. We surveyed 140,000 people, largest survey of its kind ever attempted anywhere in the world. We covered all 27 member states. And since the data was gathered in 2019, we also included the United Kingdom, as well as two observer states to the agency, Serbia and North Macedonia. Frankly, the results were deeply discouraging. They confirmed the anecdotal indications that things are bad and in some places getting worse. And when I present you with just a few figures now, I'll also compare those figures to those of a survey my agency conducted back in 2012 to give a sense of the changes over time. Firstly, when we asked people if they had experienced forms of harassment or violence during the past five years, 58% said yes they had back in 2012, the figure was 45. We asked them, had they experienced an act of discrimination in the past year. By the way, these are the EU averages, of course. We asked had they experienced an act of discrimination, 43%, almost half said yes. Earlier in 2012, that had been just 37%. Things get exponentially worse, by the way, when we break down within the LGBTI groups, the different experiences of the different groups, such as T, trans and I intersex. So when trans people were asked if they experienced discrimination, it was 60% had said yes they had within the past year. Now, if somebody is attacked or is subject to some form of act of discrimination, how often do they report the matter to the authorities. This, by the way, is a critical question because it's the basis on which we can measure the levels of the problem in our societies. And therefore the answer is very worrying. Just 14% of people said they reported a physical attack and just 17% an act of discrimination. Then we turn to logically enough following that because the reason people don't complain is because they're afraid of the outcomes. We asked about the levels of confidence in the state. How trusting are the LGBTI communities in the willingness of the state to protect them or to put it the other way. To what extent do they lack the confidence. The EU wide average was 66% lack confidence. But here I would have to say is one of the questions asked where there's the widest disparity from country to country. So, to take two examples in Malta, 83% of people said they trust the state to take care of them. And then when you go to Poland and ask the question, the figure plummets to 4%. Just 4% said they trusted the state in Poland. Let me get to some Ireland specific content. Let me just report some encouraging use. It's not a good news story, but there were some encouraging indicators. The first was that in general, we saw since 2012 a notable drop in the perception by the LGBTI community members that society is prejudiced. Another way around that society is growing more tolerant is a wide and growing view. We also saw age disparities. The younger people are the more hopeful they are of their society. And we saw changes in the school experience, a greater openness and willingness of schools to engage with the diversity of their pupils. So let me come to Ireland. And Ireland is like Malta, frankly, very similar figures is puzzling. There's a great contradiction in the Irish and the Maltese figures. When we ask the LGBTI people from Ireland, did they experience a drop in levels of prejudice in society? Unsurprisingly, 77% said yes, they had seen a drop or a rise in respect. And when we asked about levels of trust in the government, the figure was a very healthy 67% said they do trust the government to take care of their interests. But after that, when we looked at other elements of the lived experience, the Irish figures look more or less the same as the EU averages. So how many, what percentage harassed in the past year in Ireland 37% EU average 38% how many had been subject to a physical attack in the past five years in Ireland 11% the EU 11% how many had experienced an act of discrimination in the past year, 38%, which is actually 10 points higher than the EU average of 28. And then when I find always very telling. It's a real indicator of levels of trust and comfort in your society. How many same sex couples are willing to walk down the street holding hands. In Ireland, the figure is just 41%. 59% of the LGBTI people questioned said they would not hold hands with the same sex partner walking down the street, which is more or less the same as the EU average, which is 61%. So maybe we can come back in the discussion to this how we can have the amazing legislative changes that we've already referred to, we can have the sense within a community of greater acceptance and trust, and at the same time, comparable to the EU I figures for discrimination harassment under reporting and so forth. So, but but let me move on to the second and final part of my opening words about the necessary responses in law policy and practice. And this is where I really welcome the IE a initiative to mark the adoption of the EU strategy. It is a game changer. On November 12 November just a couple of weeks ago, an equality strategy for LGBTI Q people from 2020 to 2025. There are very important recommendations in here that can and I believe will make a difference. I'm particularly pleased that many of them build on recommendations we have the Fundamental Rights Agency made a few months earlier in the context of our new survey results. Among the action points of the strategy are first, a commitment by the EU Commission to extend the list of EU hate crimes to make clear EU wide the LGBTI Q dimension of hate crime. Second, there's a renewed commitment by the Commission to deliver on the long awaited equal treatment directive, whether it can be delivered or not as an entirely different matter, but the political will is clearly there. Third, the Commission in this context but also others has committed to do a health check of the employment equality directive to make it more as we say fit for purpose. There's a commitment in the strategy by the Commission to strengthen equality bodies at national levels, including with resources and funds. Very interestingly, the Commission has indicated that it will start a pathway towards mutual recognition of the diversity of the forms of family, including to protect free movement in the context of what are sometimes called rainbow families. And there's a strong commitment to support member states and civil society for all manner of initiatives to strengthen the place of the LGBTI communities. So these are great. These are really important. We're right at the beginning, but I have no doubt, not least given the leadership of Commissioner Helen Adali, who was transformative of the legal regime in Malta when she was minister there. I've no doubt that the strategy will get serious attention. But let's keep in mind, of course, that it's limited by definition. It's an EU strategy, it's limited to the EU competency space, and much of our lived experiences beyond the EU competency. So for the delivery of the strategy itself, but more broadly, to deliver for true equality and true respect for everyone, the commitment on the part of member states is absolutely critical. And here let me come back to a number of recommendations of my own agency has issued in recent months, which I think I could suggest can be read in a complimentary way to those put forward by the Commission. In the first place, we're calling for a national action plans for respect for the rights of LGBTI persons and I listened carefully to Minister Bern just now speaking about the Irish strategies, which obviously I welcome. But more generally, we don't have action plans everywhere in the EU. And we need smart planning that's time bound has clear goals that's matched by the necessary data collection, so the progress can be measured. We also need in our action plans and our strategies in every effort of our states. We need to identify the distinct experience of the different communities within the LGBTI LGBTQ world. The experience is very different. As I said earlier, if you are trans or intersex, your life experience is going to be much more challenging than if you're LGB as a general rule and we have to, we have to focus attention on particular and diverse needs. We also need to pay attention to how we all live our lives. We don't live in a box. I'm in a in a heterosexual box or I'm in a gay box or I'm at this or I'm at that. We live much more complex realities than that. We live so called intersectional lives. And we have to take account of this dimension of how we live our ordinary day to day life in our policy responses. That means that if you're a gay migrant, you're going to have particular needs that are different to those of a non migrant are to a are to a non gay migrant. And I could give many other examples, but I choose that one because that's actually one that the Commission focuses on in the new strategy. And just one or two last points. Again, regardless of the strategic approach we take the nature of our action planning of our joined up responses. We need an all of society commitment to investing in the celebration of our diversity. I think Ireland does well. Irish people do well and generously I think, but we must never lose sight of its importance of everybody investing in in in celebrating the the difference in our community has one of its deepest and graces, richness is at the My very last point is that, and I would make this point if I was speaking today about the rights of Roma, the rights of migrants, the rights of older people doesn't matter which group, but it's no less important here that we not work for the human rights of the LGBTI Q communities, not for but with it's vital to success that there's a respectful co traveling, hand in hand, if I heard that phrase from earlier to deliver on our objectives. And so, Peter, if I could just wrap up with one memory from jog Jakarta 13 years ago, after we published the jog Jakarta principles. Somebody posted on social media, I forget who and from where to be honest, but he posted a message on social media he said, yesterday, I was nothing, but today, I'm a human being. What he meant was he had, he had seen in these principles that human rights also applied to him that he was a rights holder who could demand and claim his basic entitlements in society. And I think our goal has to be to help work with everybody everywhere who needs that help so that everybody can make that great claim that maybe yesterday I was nothing, but today I'm a human being living with full honoring of my dignity within my society. Thank you. Thank you for a very inspiring introduction, Michael. And I noticed, of course that you're drawing on a tremendous range of information and data available to you and through the work of the agency in putting together that picture of the the across the European Union and likely beyond it, you mentioned Serbia and North Macedonia. There is a problem, it seems to me in using the EU average approach in that the range across the continent is very, very marked and wide. Do you think that it's fair? Is it accurate to think of this progress in relation to LGBTI plus rights as exhibiting a West East divide across the Union. I think that in general, is that something that you think is a fair depiction of our of our Union, and indeed for the minister as well whether in his interactions with his colleagues, that is something that he perceives. Either of you first I don't mind. I think I should defer to the minister. Excuse me. I'm not engaged in now. An inappropriate occasions would look to know if I was muted there. No, I think East West is probably a bit simplistic I think, look, and even even generalizing ever countries as well I think can be simplistic too. You have policies of certain governments of certain countries or the facilitation of policies in within certain countries, even at a local level. And is actually in some cases in Poland, particularly causing huge angst among many Polish people, I would say. And so I wouldn't like to simplistically do it on that geographical basis. I think we have many allies in Eastern Europe. We do have to. I think some of the issues have really really risen to the surface very very quickly in the last year and a half some really really observable issues that we really need to tackle very very quickly. And I think I think the only way we can do that really is through engagement with Poland and similar countries but encouraging them and encouraging their own citizens as well and putting pressure and being constructed we are all friends in this European Union. It's a cold Israel just Polish colleague. I've written to my Polish colleague, the ambassadors didn't tremendous work in Poland as well in terms of opening the profile I think that we need to really all of us up our game on this very very quickly. Because I think things could begin to get out of hand but no I wouldn't generalize it even within countries I have to say. Peter I do agree, I actually entirely agree with the minister there and in fact our figures dispute this idea of an east west divide in some kind of crude fashion. I will already I already gave you the Irish stats which show that we're not out of the not out of the woods. We have problems ourselves. Let me give you a shocking data set from this recent survey of ours. The worst evidence of victimization and violence isn't coming from, let's say, the Eastern European region. It's coming from the following countries France, Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden. I don't realize any simplistic analysis. And again as the minister said I couldn't agree more. Some of the most passionate defenders some of the bravest civil society standing up for these issues are to be found in exactly the countries that I think are maybe in some people's minds here but I actually as a general rule I mean it kind of in an Irish event I'll use Irish figures, but as a general rule I avoid picking on a country because it's a distraction. It's a distraction that it's somebody else's problem rather than our own. And I think it's really important on this and any number of other surveys we do and research we do around the Union to recall the problems are everywhere. And I just add though and I would agree there, but I have to say, I think these yellow signs popping up in Poland in particular on the edges of towns LGBT free zones. I think they're a particular problem. And I know that there's lots of other things that your research is showing that we're not paying attention to. But I think if that's allowed to continue to develop as it has for the last year and a half or so. I think it's only about then. I think we're in for some serious problems and I just I think generally right minded people which is almost everybody will. They find it disgusting. I mean it was really, it was a really good and one of the newspapers had a two or four page spread about it and it really hit home to me I've seen I think anyone reading that would just be perhaps be horrified. I think that is one thing that is just so visible. I think if we allow that to continue or not entirely within our control, if that's allowed to continue. I think we're for a lot of trouble and other people with similar mentalities will get ideas and that may start to spread. So that those yellow signs to me are the embodiment of just a horrible situation that just has to be put to an end very, very quickly. Peter, can I just jump in? I look here again I just want to agree with the minister. There's no disagreement between us whatsoever. It's repugnant. Ursula von der Leyen described LGBTI free zones as humanity free zones. And I think that was a good way of putting it. And I'm not here to defend actions from the Commission in Brussels. But I'd have to observe that they are taking action they are cutting off local authority grants and things of that nature so I'm within the limited toolbox available. It's not being ignored and it's a parent. There's no question about that. It's also, by the way, it's also idiotic. It's based on perverse ideology that's not about humans and it's not about humans thriving or about communities. Could I come back to the minister and say that Poland is no longer a new member of the European Union. Of course it goes back to an Irish presidency in 2004. But there is a problem in the Union, I think, and it's more general than in relation to LGBTQ of a certain amount of adherence to the principles of policies, including in the relation of fundamental rights, only to find that there is backsliding. And of course the threshold has been crossed and membership has been attained. So minister. I know that enlargement is not a particularly active topic at the moment nonetheless in the Western Balkans it's still on the agenda of the Union. Do you do is that is there are other tools as a leverage that can be used in the in the enlargement area with countries such as Serbia which has been mentioned North Macedonia and others Albania were in the queue to join. Yeah, and North Macedonia and Albania should be much further on along the line than they are. North Macedonia particularly been held up with other issues concerning its its language, which is obscure issue but it's important for Gary but I'd be very keen that we do continue the accession process and that that is one way to to at least make improvements. And as you said, it is certainly a concern that you get to the stage and you tick all the boxes, but how to ensure that that continues what I think. I think, yes, we can have legal rules yes we can conditionality yes we can have ruled off procedures. What we're doing at the moment what I think ultimately the only thing that will work is to really show them the light. I think for example in the case of Poland this will be the case for for new member states as well. They're highly dependent on the business environment on the European single market. They don't like this type of thing. You know they generally are the same as any the rest of us. They have staff members who are gay they have staff members who are trans they have you know they want to be in an environment that works with them as well. And I have something particularly in the case of Poland. I think that's one area of non legal recourse or one area of non official pressure that could be made to work and certainly invite the business community to get more active in that as well. It's another tool, but I think it's a tool that Poland as a, you know, progressively business focus country and you know imports and exports does business. I think it's something we're going to have to accept more news business to express their concerns about this and many of them are already expressing concerns for example that the Polish judicial system, another rule of law issue. But I think that's one way to go because clearly rules and regulations and expressions of fundamental values don't work for everybody I wish they did. So we need to use other methods like Michael I know the the FRA doesn't extend to the to the neighborhood but perhaps all the same you've been able to invite as you mentioned survey and some others to participate in some of the surveys. If, if a state is an applicant to the EU and it meets certain conditions, it can be admitted as an observer to the agency, which for our purpose means that we treat them co equally with everybody else. It's difficult because it's an increasing number of countries now in the Western Balkans. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I think it's of an undoubted benefit to kind of throw a comparative light on the situation vis a vis the internal EU member states, and also to pick up good practice It's not about focusing exclusively on problems. It's broadening the pool of good practice from which to borrow for everybody else. I used to work in the Western Balkans back during the war and former Yugoslavia was stationed in Bosnia and also for some time in Croatia. And even then you know there are things that just work there that don't work somewhere else and that's that's also part of this this engagement. But if I could come more broadly to the issue of of the capacity to to ensure respect for the rules. The toolbox is of course relatively limited, but there've been important developments in the last few months in the EU. We have the rule of law tool put in place with the annual reporting by the Commission, and that's still only at the beginning. We haven't had the national debates that are intended to be triggered by these annual rule of law reports, and we have real progress. I think I'm a bit of an optimist I know, but I see real progress in the funding conditionality debate in terms of the next budget. There will be some form of scrutiny for fundamental rights compliance in the spending of EU monies, and I believe that that will make a real difference. And then the only other thing I'd say in terms of protecting of ensuring respect for rights across the EU, the whole right across every bit of it is the urgency now of investing in civil society and protecting the NGOs in protecting the other civil society voices. They're coming under pressure everywhere, and they do far more they play far bigger role than I think is currently acknowledged and so side by side with the legal developments. We need to invest in the soft support to the brave NGO Human Rights Defenders. Just following up on the soft support idea. I mean, if you look at the Commission's strategy document is very interesting read by the way, including on the, the point the minister has made in relation to the business environment and the very positive contribution of diversity and inclusion policies to to economic to economic welding. But of course the strategy does include a number of hard proposals. You mentioned I think going back to the the Equal Treatment Directive, and you mentioned extension of the definition of hate crimes. And there are others as well. Both of these, as far as I know, involve unanimity in the Council. So I mean, what realistically are the prospects for getting measures like this through or do you think indeed that there's a case for adjusting the role in which it's available to do so through the Passorel thing. But is that are these are these viable measures that the Commission was proposing to put forward. Minister of the ministry. I'm delighted to hold back. That's a difficult question. The Passorels laws is something that I don't usually talk about because obviously the issue of vetoes and states guide their vetoes generally we certainly are public those. So it would be possibly controversial here. Look, we've just got through an MFF document which, you know, actually has, you know, it's not perfect, but broadly welcomed as a step forward and that was done through unanimity. And, you know, certainly, if there were two member states there who weren't fighting their good fighters, as they say they don't agree with them anyway. Certainly, it would have been a different document that they not being involved with they don't have the views that they had, but if you were looking to, if you're looking to move away from if you know it is required I'm not clear it's required and everything but it's required to move away from it. And it just points to the MFF can be done on that basis. And that's a good point that I mean last weekend might be disappointing to some but as looked at the other way it's it's the approval of two massive spending programs from the EU one unprecedented in its nature and it's and with that conditionality as I say, but it's there. Michael. I don't have much to add. Let me just, I suppose, say as well that having high level discussion around these issues will bring up its own benefit, regardless of what the negotiation outcome will be, you know, getting this repeatedly put into council configurations for discussion appearing in council conclusions. That's all part of the incremental growth in willingness and acceptance of the expansion for example of hate crimes, or for the equal treatment legislation. So there's there's there's no there's no convincing reading not to pursue these. Can I just add as well just in relation to Michael or Peter mentioned the national debates on on the rule of law and human rights in the European Union I mean I'm encouraging our dog and our Shannon to do that. That is certainly something that's that's envisaged. I would say though at the every time we have a dog debate and a question and answer session which I do after the European Council. There aren't quite a lot of deputies raised rule of law human rights issues in the European Union. I think that that's that's an important form as well if you start when we start joining our voices and again increasing the profile here. I think gradually has has to have an impact so again I'll be trying to make sure you have a lot of stuff in the longer the new year I certainly want to see good debates on on on on the rule of law on human rights and the European Union in our own national. We're starting to have some questions from our participants. One close to my own heart spent a number of years in Strasbourg at the Council of Europe it's addressed to Michael of La Houtte. In addition to the work Michael of the FRA and the European Union the Council of Europe has contributed significantly to bolstering legal protection for LGBTI plus people over the past two decades while facing many of the same challenges to what extent is their cooperation between the FRA and the Council of Europe on LGBTI rights. It's a really close cooperation the we we can never allow ourselves to slip into some form of a competing relationship that will be deeply unhelpful. The fundamental rights agency mandate of course is designed to complement the Council of Europe one not to replace it. We don't have for example any adjudicatory function. We're not the guardians of treaties in the way that the Council of Europe is. We're in daily contact on every imaginable issue the whether it be myself and Dunia Miatovic the Council of Europe commissioner the as in closely in terms of how we engage on different issues and countries. Through a sharing of research findings and pooling indeed of research efforts. That's the case for example this week on artificial intelligence where we're both very much focused on it but quite deliberately coming from different directions so that we can be a support to each other. Also I would say the normative guidance given to us by the European Convention is absolutely central that by the way yet another of the priorities we're focusing on right now maybe just as challenging is you accession to the European Convention on human rights. The other the partnership is very good it's very healthy. A hell of a lot better than it was when we were first established. You might remember it yourself Peter at that time there was considerable concern that the EU look like it might be creating a competitor to the Council of Europe which of course was never the case, but that's long behind us at this stage. Absolutely Michael and as the minister has mentioned the Norris case was absolutely fundamental to the change in Ireland, and other cases brought before the Court of Human Rights were fundamental in other parts of the membership of the Council of Europe, which of course is 47 rather than 27 and thus has a much broader geographic coverage. Another question here on action outside the EU the minister has largely covered it but I'll just repeat it anyway what role should Ireland play as an EU member states at global level to further LGBTIQ equality. How does minister burn anticipate the political dynamics of this issue playing out among EU member states, is it largely subsumed under wider debates on rule of law, or is it emerging as a significant fault line in its own right. I think the last point to fair enough point actually and something I'd like to see change it is the rule of law issues obviously that we're dealing with at the Council generally on the judiciary on media, and those types of things and this is not something I have to say that has really been a major feature discussion, and, you know, in any form really that I've been at no six months of the job and I'm not at every form, but it's certainly something I'd like to have been really conscious of that and it's something I'd like to see how do we get further up the agenda because you know there's no doubt that the solidarity is there with LGBTI people in Poland and other countries as well, but how do we just collectively work out but just in terms of what the Irish government is doing I have to say I think our diplomatic staff are just doing tremendous work in Poland in terms of engaging with the community, in terms of supporting the community, in terms of going to gay pride events with the community and flying the flag literally in the countries of the Basin so I think really my hats off and I think they're doing the federal work and I certainly hope to join them at some point when the service ends so that I certainly think it's something that Ireland, I mean, Ireland has obviously led the way on this in some respect, in other respects we haven't, but in some respects we have. I think we have an opportunity to continue to lead the way and take that particular path. So that's a moral thing to do, it's a moral obligation on us I think, but also, you know, part of the reason why people get agitated about this is not to say it's a moral context very important as well, part of the reason is we're not contributors to the European Union, in terms of the budget and it simply should not be acceptable for us to allow our money to be spent, where these activities can take place so that's a financial side to what is fundamentally a moral question and don't get away from the morality of it. But there is a financial side to it as well, I think I think citizens are going to start questioning that too, I think they'll be right as well. I have a question here from Peter McLoone. Are you a member of the Institute, are you contributors aware of the recent initiative in 20 schools nationwide this in Ireland to create a school environment that is fully inclusive of LGBTI plus students. Is this type of project the best way forward ensuring investment in youth and belong to youth services across, belong to youth services across Europe is the best way forward. I imagine the education areas covered in the strategy I don't recall it immediately but Michael do you have anything to add on that. Sure, well first education is covered but in terms of encouraging diversity and mutual respect but of course it's modest because it again engages the issue of EU competency where education in large part stays with the state, but more generally the level of tolerance school communities is really obviously an important thing to do. And it's not an especially difficult thing to do because repeatedly we find that levels of tolerance grow the younger you go in terms of checking the levels and acceptance so yes, I don't know about the Irish initiative but it sounds very interesting and it corresponds with what we would recognize as an important part of building those diverse communities. I love that point from Michael that it's not an especially difficult thing to do think we're actually none of this is actually especially difficult to do. From a moral point of view does have to make the choice that is the asset want to take and I think in schools in Ireland, I wasn't aware of that specific project but, and in my opinion as former education spoke for the party I mean it's about school leadership as well, I mean and the question here which manages to bring together the other crisis COVID and LGBT is from Elaine Cassidy who's chair of the Department of Transport LGBT I staff network. The pandemic has affected all parts of society but LGBT plus people have been particularly impacted in that they can be isolated from their chosen families, and they've even been advised not to come out. This is acknowledged in the EU LGBT equality strategy 2025 but given that the strategy perhaps does not compel member states to act in some respects is their scope for further legal provisions that would have more, more teeth, so to speak. Well, the intersection there I think intersectionality. Yes, something that the strategy has particularly majored on Michael. I think we have as much teeth as we could possibly put there at the moment in terms of the ability of the EU to move legislatively there's a lot as I said before, there's large parts of lived experience that are just outside the scope of the institutions. I just want to agree with the person who put the question we've been mapping the impact of COVID for all manner of groups across society and the LGBT communities are among those who are heavily impacted. It's not just about fear of going out on the street it's also being being locked up with an intolerant family or in a setting where you can't be yourself. It's about not having the escape of school for something youngsters who found that the only place where they could be themselves. And it's also about hate speech online where LGBTI people are being blamed somehow for the virus I mean palpable nonsense, but they are one of those groups, other groups include Muslims and Jews, Roma, who are being targeted as somehow being the effectors of the virus. So there's all manner of issues there and we're not out of the woods yet you know this is not stuff from six months ago this is on a day to day every day basis as we navigate through the lockdowns. An area in which social media no doubt have a role to play I'm thinking that the Commission I think this week is launching further initiative in the regulation of social media minister. Yeah if you don't mind on that specific question which is very really important question what requires very specific answers. I might come back to the Institute that's okay in written form when you get distributed to Christmas or members if that's okay because I think it just deserves a precise answer because it's asking us what we're going to do. Minister I'm not going to speculate as what we're doing I'm going to tell you what we are going to do. So, I'd rather if that's okay. It's a really important question and I haven't, I haven't prepared for this particular debate on the base of what we're doing naturally. And again, it's such an important question so if you don't mind I'll do that I'll come back. Peter may I add forgive me if I jump in I forgot to mention again to use that awful word intersectionality. So, I think that intersectionality is is is very strongly present present in the LGBTI Q communities. One in three say they have difficulty making ends meet for intersex and trans one and two, say that they're poor. And of course, the pandemic is hitting the poor much harder than those who have resources it's about precarious jobs, part time jobs on plan for unemployment. This intersection of the two issues is an important dimension of assessing the experience. I have two final questions from researchers at the IEA in a way you've covered, you've covered them to some degree already but I'll just put them out anyway. From me a thousand researcher at the at the Institute for Michael in light of the European Commission's proposals today for the Digital Services Act in combating online discrimination and anti LGBTI plus hate speech. What might some of the key indicators of its effectiveness in this area be and what are its limitations. I have a question for largely for the minister from Alex Conway also a researcher. How does the minister square massive investment from German car manufacturers, like 100 million from Daimler in hungry, seemingly being undeterred by legislation past today banning adoption by same sex couples. So first the Digital Services Act, Michael, I don't know if it's a bit early to comment on it but it's only launched today. Exactly, it's a bit early for me to I mean I haven't had a chance to look at it carefully we don't we don't get sight of these draft pieces of legislation so I'm as new to it as anybody else. The what what what I could say is that key measures of success will be a great care by platforms in terms of what they publish. It'll be about voluntary take turn of expression that crosses criminal lines. It'll be about an ascending pyramid of regulation depending on the levels of risk involved. So in other words moving from the voluntary actions to be required legally required actions and there'll be a pathway there depending on levels of risk and exposure. There'll be there'll be a taming of artificial intelligence and its application through requirements of transparency and impact assessment. They just somehow but I can't really go further than that today I'm sorry. No but you're reflecting the reality that so much of our lives socially are indeed lived through those through those channels these days. Minister the final word is with you on those and on any other topics that you'd like to have the last word on. The question on damer actually kind of undercuts the point I was making about investment but I think I think look, presumably they were planning this for quite some time this just presume. I know that I saw conspiracy theories that it was connected to the MFF agreement. I certainly have no evidence that I haven't read enough to know that. And I suppose one could say that they were weren't were they aware that it was legislation going to be passed today, which is anti LGBT, which it really is an anti human rights. But again, and I said this to some kids this morning in a school talking about fast fashion I mean the consumers have to make their voice heard as well. So, so we have to do our job as government but European Commission does its job and the institutions but our human rights watchdogs as well. And consumers have to make their voice heard too. So, so when I say about business make its voice business then is pressured by consumers so you know you've a problem with damer doing that. Not many people on the call will be buying a damer possibly but your own choices in the consumer world but look it's a serious point. And I think I think it's something that we don't all going to start thinking of as consumers, how we deal with. At the end of our, our long period I just want to express my real appreciation to our two panelists and speakers for the richness and the that the informed nature of everything that they have contributed to this debate and also for the IEA I should say a debate dedicated to LGBTI. I do hope that it can be followed up with a live and in person event sometime during 2021. But with that word of thanks and seasons greetings to all who have who have participated and have listened in. Thank you for for now and leave say our thanks to our two speakers. Thank you all.