 After the hour of six in the evening of January 31, 1985, and we're located in offices, Jason II offices, occupied by the Federal Bureau of Investigations in Antonio, Texas, for the purpose of interviewing Gordon Joseph Reiner under hypnosis in order to refresh his memory of events that he may have witnessed associated with an undercover reverse operation in Miami Lakes, Florida on or about March 11, 1981. In addition to myself, James W. Kenney, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of the Investigation, and DEA Special Agent Reiner, others present at this time are Gerardo Cesar Medina, a senior inspector from Drug Enforcement Administration Headquarters in Houston, D.C., and Dr. Richard B. Garver, a clinical psychologist in private practice in San Antonio, Texas. Do you understand why we are here and what the purpose of the interview is? Yes, I do. And do you understand that your participation has to be voluntary, that you cannot be coerced or forced in a way to undergo an interview such as this? Yes, I am doing it voluntarily. Okay, do you have any objection to us videotaping these entire procedures? Not at all. Do you have any objection to any of the people that were present in the room at this time being present throughout the interview? No. If you do it any time, please let us know, okay? All right. Obviously, if you object to Dr. Garver, we've got a problem. Basically, what we're going to do in just a moment, Dr. Garver will talk with you, and then afterwards I'll ask you to relate for us at a remember level, a conscious recollection of any events associated with this particular operation, and that's the only thing we're interested in, is what happened in Miami Lakes, Florida and this operation on the 11th of March, 1981. We don't care what you eat for breakfast or anything else. Fine. And then if you agree, we'll sign a consent form and then we'll go into the hypnotic interview. Sure, it's fine with me. At this time, I'd like to give just a little background on Dr. Garver. He's a certified and licensed clinical psychologist in private practice in San Antonio, Texas. He's involved in the treatment of several hundred patients each month in the training of many doctors in hypnotherapy. He's a diplomat of the American Board of Psychological Hypnosis with a specialty in clinical hypnosis and serves as a special consultant to the FBI. He's here today because we consider your welfare in this interview and we've asked you to come and help us. Fine. Do you have any questions? No, none at all. We've had just a moment to meet and I need to tell you what we're here to do in terms of how we're going to use hypnosis. Hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness, so in a way it's an invasive procedure, but the way it's going to be used here really is more relaxation and a focus than anything else. I want to give you some information about hypnosis, answer any questions you have, and then tell you exactly how we're going to use it in the interview. Some people think of hypnosis as a sleep state. It's really not. The EEG is different than sleep. Actually, it's going to be in this situation more like having a daydream. You're going to be aware of being relaxed and being here to be aware of things around you. A person who would be having hypnosis for surgery would not. We would ask them to dissociate. We would ask them to go fishing or hunting or where they wanted to go and we'd see that they get there and that they wouldn't be here and wouldn't remember anything. But obviously that would be counter to what we're wanting to do here. This is to enhance memory and hypnosis has, as it's center, a focus, now the focus for the surgery patient is kind of the same focus that you or I would have if we listened to a boring speaker. It wouldn't be the speaker. It would be away someplace. We hope that this will be the same kind of focus that a woman would have when she's birthing a child with hypnosis. She doesn't want to be away. She wants to be a part of that. She's hypnotized to produce anesthesia but she's very much involved here and now. If we were listening to a very interesting charismatic speaker, we would be very much involved here and to the exclusion of other things. That's where the focus will be. It will be here, part of you, part of your mind focusing on our questions and you will also then be somewhere else. We're asking you to go back to a situation. I call it a memory walk. Go back, visualize this other place, this other time where you have certainly been and place yourself there and then go with us forward from there as though we're happening now. Go forward through that period of time as we can do it slowly, carefully. We can kind of stop the action and have you go only that far and then answer some questions, take it a little further and so on. As I understand it, it will be at a time where you were involved with the action so you will have been there and you will simply be there again and tell us what you're doing as you go through it again in your mind and essentially that's it. The reason that we ask you, as Jim will in a moment, to consciously go through it first is to see what the difference is between your conscious recollection, which is of course being here and the present and trying to remember back as to what happened as opposed to getting relaxed and then going back there and going forward as though we're happening now and that seems to elicit a far better recall than it does to be here and remember. So basically that's why we do that comparison. Have you tell Mr. Kenny consciously what you remember and then we do the hypnotic interview. So that's it in a nutshell. I guess I need only to know, I might as well ask you now before we do the actual hypnotic interview formally if you're on any medication. No, I'm not. Okay, and do you have any other medical history of any period of unconsciousness for any period of time, trouble with anesthesia, anything like that? No, I don't. And any psychiatric history? No. Okay, thank you. Well, I guess one other thing. How is your vision normally? Is it 2020 or corrected? No, it's not 2020, it's 2020. 2010 in my right eye and about 2016 in my left eye. I wear glasses for distance and I do have a pair of reading glasses that I don't use because they're too close up. Okay, at the time of this particular situation, were you wearing glasses? No, I wasn't. Okay. I just started wearing them regularly within the last year. Okay, and are you, to your knowledge, colorblind? Do you have any trouble separating blues and yellows or reds and greens? No, it was recent attest as six months ago, I didn't know that. Okay. All right, any questions for me? No. Okay. According to what I'd like to do is read the consent form out loud. I'm going to ask you to look it over, see if you have any questions about it and then try to address the instructions you have. It reads on January 31, 1985 at San Antonio, Texas. I, Gordon Joseph Reiner, hereby agree voluntarily and freely to undergo hypnosis and be interviewed under hypnosis in order to assist the Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA, with an inquiry or investigation that DEA is conducting. I understand that James W. Kenney, a special agent of the FBI, and that's my son, will be present and assist in the interview. I also understand that a videotape recording will be made of the entire interview and that this method of preservation of the interview may be used for any lawful purpose connected with this investigation or any subsequent action based upon the investigation. Dr. Richard B. Garber, a mental health professional, has explained the procedures to be used during the course of this hypnosis session and any questions I had concerning this procedure have been answered to my satisfaction. The purpose of this interview under hypnosis is to assist my memory in recalling events I may have witnessed associated with an undercover reverse operation in Miami Lakes, Florida on or about March 11, 1981. Can I ask you to look that over and see if you have any questions about anything? No. Do you feel like you understand it? Yes, I do. Okay. If I could then, if you're willing to. Dr. Garber, can I get you to sign the form, typically? We'll see the type actors then. I didn't ask you to initialize crossouts where I crossed out that you showed up at the FBI and inserted the grade unless you feel it's necessary. Can you tell me what you remember about this and keeping in mind that our interest is, as it pertains to this particular event, this operation? Okay. Which one we're talking about? Right. Prior to March 11, I think it was either the 10th or probably the 9th, I was down there from Savannah assisting the agents and operation grouper. I backed up in the resident agent in charge in Savannah at the time that we had another reverse deal go down at the same location, the apartment, as it was known, involving flashing either 50 pounds or 50 keys of coke. I got involved in the chain of custody of the coke. It was bothersome to me that the methods of control they used for the evidence were not up to my standards. Using that as a basis that on some time before the deal went down on the old evidence and I think it was that morning, we had a meeting on how the deal was going to go and that I said that I was insistent that we were going to have some, using evidence labels, the DEA evidence labels and secure the money that was anticipated to be obtained from the violators, seal that in some manner and that especially if I was going to get involved with it and that way I wouldn't have to be involved in the chain of custody of the evidence for a case that was basically the groups in Miami and if my participation involved taking a sealed box I could hold it for a period of time and turn it back over and still not appear in the official chain of custody because of my confidence in the sealing methods that I would have to be officially involved in chain of custody. So at some time at the meeting in the morning I insisted that we do use the DEA labels, evidence labels and put it in a box and somehow we got the Xerox box. Then we all went out to the undercover area. The first thing, the group supervisor surprised me when he changed the game plan and said you handle the outside situation which is the surveillance and the arrest of the bad guys after they leave the apartment with the Coke because I figured I was only a, even though I was a supervisor I was only a visitor from out of town and I should not have had that job that was his group and his operation but I agreed to do it anyway. We got set up in the apartment out in Miami Lakes. The deal was that the undercover agents were in the apartment and as we had done in the past had bad guys come up to the 7-Eleven area call the house and an undercover agent would come out meet them and lead them into the area as a protective measure. In the meantime we had the phone under surveillance at the 7-Eleven we determined that they had received a call and I observed Agent Healy come up in the trans-am, meet with the two subjects and I think we're in a super station wagon towards the house and the surveillance had been planned and we had set up in the house I set up in a position that looking down a dead end or a cul-de-sac driveway where I think about five apartments on either side where I could see the sidewalk where the entrance to the house which is recessed back off the sidewalk was we had previously arranged that if the deal went down the bad guys got the coke that the agent Healy would come out to the car with the bad guy, the visual signal that the deal had gone down and we would put the arrest plan in operation we had also planned that after securing the bad guys which was to take place almost within sight of the undercover apartment to keep the guys in the undercover apartment cool we would fake hitting the apartment kicking down the door allegedly and arresting them so I was to make the bad guys think that they weren't the cops we set up in the apartment as I said I was sitting I had a GMC Blazer official government vehicle that I was sitting in with a female agent from Tampa and a sergeant or deputy sheriff from some rural county near Panama City, Florida scenario was the bad guys had to come out of this cul-de-sac and down a narrow driveway and we had a Dade County marked unit at both ends of it with agents following them at both ends the coke was not in the house when the bad guys arrived they made another phone call and Jeff Charlott drove up in his Z-car parked it and took the coke into the house or took the coke to the door of the house he turned and sat in his car which was across the drive from the apartment eventually Pat Healy and the two bad guys came out and put something in the car and since he was with them I knew that they had the coke I alerted the other surveillance units and as they came up and turned down the street out of sight of the front of the apartment Dade County Public Safety Unit moved in from the front the Subaru stopped and they started to back up and the other marked unit came up behind them and the agents in the car behind the Dade County unit in front came at the car and by this time I had come over the wall the retaining wall between the driveway where I was and where the action was and the arrest went down the arrest and seizure went down both guys had guns we seized them, the guns and the coke with standard confusion that goes down one of those deals and then as an afterthought sort of oh yeah let's hit the apartment and Jeff got there ahead of me because he wasn't really involved in the bust and then I made loud noises and pulled my shiny automatic out and said okay let's go hit the apartment and ran down the short distance to it and hooping and hollering and making lots of noise and looking like a fucking fool and I went up and beat on the door and went in inside the agents I remember that were in there was Ted Weed, Larry Hawn, Pat Healy and I think Billy Retton from Panama City and some way I got the money and this in the somebody said there's the box of money and that money is in the box and the evidence tapes were on it and somebody also suggested hurry up let's clean up the place because we expect another bunch of bad guys in they're going to run a similar deal again and as I picked up the box the evidence tapes came off not completely off they popped off the bottom and I remember saying oh shit now I'm going to change the custody of the money I took it back out I took custody of the money and initially I thought I had gone back to my blazer over back over the fence but my memory being refreshed previously that Jeff and I got in his Z car and drove down to the gas station where some of the surveillance agents were and whoever had driven my blazer down there put the money in the back of the blazer and still with this female agent and there was a black agent that accompanied us back to the DEA office and carried the money upstairs group one the group that I was working with and an agent from Savannah that worked for me and two local police officers from the Glenn County Police Department in Georgia who were with me part of my entourage counted the money quickly or counted bundles I don't recall which and determined that instead of two and a quarter there was only about a hundred and sixty five thousand dollars there and temporarily sealed put the money back in the box temporarily sealed it again and I wrapped it in plastic tape and put my evidence stickers on it name and everything and stored it until I guess it was two days later when I took it out and processed the money counted it again and again verified the count on it and put it in DEA evidence envelopes the clear evidence envelopes and heat sealed it and turned it into cashier and then I know at the trial there was a big stink made about the fact that the money was not what it was supposed to be I had since I learned after the trial that the defense attorney had already given his defendants polygraph his clients the defendants polygraph test and they had passed it or indicated that they had not taken the money that there was two hundred and twenty thousand or something like that there and therefore somebody in DEA must be responsible for it the loss of it and I took a polygraph that I guess proved that I didn't have anything to do with it and it's about it without going into details or questions I don't know specifics on that one what is important to us and why I've asked you to go through it like that is that quite honestly we don't know what aspect you played in this and it serves as a roadmap for me I'll be the person talking to you when you're in hypnosis and it serves as a roadmap to kind of get started I think for our purposes you said there was a meeting that morning before the bus came before the deal went down there was a meeting I'm pretty sure it was that morning as opposed to the day before well we'll use that meeting as a point that we want to go to and excuse me as you start getting in touch with it it's that morning or the preceding day it'll be academic because you'll go into that meeting if it is the preceding day could you let us know what day it is the day before the day of the 11th and then what I'm particularly interested in are the conversations, the events what happened, how you ended up money, things of this nature no, basically be the line that I'd like to pursue at any time while I'm talking to you I guess being an investigator you like to think of yourself as logical and progressive and I might be in my mind going from one to two to three to four all of a sudden you say, hey this kid's going too slow for me I want to go to six, go to six I will be starting you out on a roadmap that I feel is developmental but if anything comes into your mind you just say whatever the hell it is all right and if you don't like the method of questioning or how we're going about it just say, let's try some of those because you're the engineer this is my mind to get back into the meeting before or to the March 11th thing is that where we want to go to the meeting before or to the March 11th scenario March 11th morning or March 11th morning just briefly as to the box and the date and the discussion the only thing I'm interested in at the meeting really is say since the box seems to be the thing in the question any discussion of the box, how it's going to be sealed how it's going to be treated and who said what and then eventually that would be the meeting with Group 1 which would be Jeff, Ted Pat and getting the script ready for the that would be the one can we have any questions no, not yet but I'm getting a little nervous that's it, I'm going to do it well yeah, you've been sitting around all day waiting and now you're here just like that no, it's about all okay as I as I mentioned to you before we're both Jim and I are going to talk with you and help you be relaxed and and help you go through this and basically as you were going through this just now telling him what went on probably as you were thinking about these events you even had mental pictures that formed in your mind as most of us do when we're recounting some kind of event basically that's what we're going to be doing except that I'd like you to start by just closing your eyes and relaxing just being as comfortable as you can be and I'm going to be taking your pulse here if you can just let me have this so I can have some idea of how you're doing and if you just take a deep breath for me now slow and easy and then let it all out and it's fine another one this one a nice deep breath and hold it now feel the tension build and use the tension as a signal just to release and just let go and just let all the tension drain away and what I'd like you to do now is to begin just to drift back a way that'll help you do that is to start at the number 100 and think silently to yourself backward by once in other words think 99 98, 97 and continue to do that and give me a signal by moving this finger as you're doing that that's fine you might time the count with your breathing every time you breathe in or out good that's fine and that just helps you concentrate consciously and your unconscious mind can listen to me and it just happens very naturally easily while you're doing that now I want you also to just kind of drift back in time maybe to earlier today yesterday the day before last week last month it really doesn't matter what events you touch upon during this course but the target is March 11th 1981 at that meeting you were just discussing and I just want you to kind of take your time and drift back to that time and when you get there and I want you to just place yourself at that meeting so that we can go forward from there and when you do that you can stop the counting and you can just let me know by just raising this hand completely another signal that we can use is there's a part of your brain your unconscious mind that helps you relax even more I'm just going to give you a signal that signal is just pressure on your right shoulder just like this and that pressure will be a signal for you to relax even more become more involved in the imagery and when you can get a picture of you being at that meeting before it starts or just as it's starting you can pick the spot you know best where to begin then you signal me and Mr. Kenny and I will help you get more involved actually we're going to be going along for the ride so to speak and having you sort of be our eyes and our ears our guide will let you help us really needs you to tell us what's going on next we want to be there with you so there'll be some pictures that are occurring to us as you explain yours to us what you're seeing we want then to be now now to be then and when that time becomes now we'll want you to through that tell us what you're doing now what you're going to do next and we'll we'll be attempting to stay with you and to form pictures in our minds as well as to what is happening and how you describe it to us and I suggest to you that as you this method as you go along that that you'll be able to use this yourself to relax and help handle stress