 Thank you, Richa, for the recap. I want to give a kudos to Eric and Melissa, you know, two students and the note taker to really provide a very good summary for the last couple of days. And as Richa mentioned, we have seen and heard many interesting presentation discussing the challenges and opportunities for industrial decarbonization. You know, what I like to quick summarize is that some of them explore the technologies such as electrification, low carbon fuel or industry-specific renewables and the CCS and energy and material efficiencies. And some of them really exam the options for specific industry. You know, we heard of the big three as Richa mentioned, the steel cement industry and the refining chemical we heard yesterday, and the resource extraction industry we heard on Monday. All of them show great potential is there. If we put them on the table, you know, this is the technology, this is a specific industry, you know, all of them show the great potential for industrial decarbonization and electrification. So what we're going to today for the first panel, the first we're going to step back to review what are the common issues and the potential solutions. Then to discuss something we, you know, we happened to deep dive yesterday is really what is the full impact or system level impact when we're considering all the possibility and opportunities as we talk about different solutions. Then, you know, as Richa mentioned, you see, you know, Myroid Stanford is the many director of bits and words and we deal with electricity sector. So I'd really like to get some insights from the distinguished panelists today, you know, how much industrial electrification is feasible is 50% 70% 80% or even more. Then if we go a little bit abroad, you know, how much decarbonization is possible in the industry sectors. So joining us today, we have five distinguished panelists as Richard introduced, Amit, Nell, Edison, John, and Andrew, welcome. And the format today, each of you are going to give about 10 minutes, 10 to 12 minutes to share your perspective on this topic. What are the common opportunities and the solutions for industrial decarbonization, then we will go to the moderate conversation. And I would encourage audience to submit your questions through the Q&A. And, you know, some of the panelists may respond to your question in written directly, and some of them I will pick and go to the Q&A part for today's conversation. So we would like to make sure that we reserve enough time in the end for the Q&A really want to engage you and encourage you to submit questions. Without further due, I will handle to the first panelist, Amit Sakhar. And Amit is a corporate scientist at Total Energy and also is visiting school and scientist at Stanford. Literally, I believe you're still here at Engineering Court. Amit, go ahead. Hi, good morning, good afternoon. It's been an extreme pleasure to work in the organizing committee with Richard and Maxine and others in the panel to set up this workshop. And I'm really delighted to participate as a panelist on the last day. So my role, I would just say, I'm a resident visiting scientist at Stanford. So I work here full time with different research projects that are sponsored by Total Energies. And from my company side, I'm a corporate research scientist for North America. I'm basically a technical lead for several of our R&D collaboration across the US and Canada. So before I dip right to electrification and decarbonization solution for industry with a particular focus on chemicals in the industrial sector, I would just like to highlight one thing. So this is not a propaganda for Total Energy, but just to show, when I started my career 10 years back, the total amount of electricity in portfolio of Total Energy was less than 5%. And we had like less than a one gigawatt production capacity. And if you look at today, I'll use the, so if you look at today, so we are here like right now 10, 11 gigawatt production capacity. And our target is basically by 2030, we'll be reaching like around 100 gigawatt. So then this is the scenario for our peers also, like other energy companies, which traditionally has been called as oil and gas energy or oil and gas companies. If you look at a portfolio prediction in by 2050, we are expecting more than 50% of renewables and electricity. So basically, this is a big transformation that is happening. And we are moving from oil and gas companies or oil and gas portfolio to a more like energy focused, electricity focused portfolio. So this is in real world, this is happening. And this is why I think it's extremely important to find out from the research side, from technology development side, how can we basically deliver what the industry needs? What are the technology gaps? So if I look into the energy use and emissions in the industrial sector, and when I mentioned industrial sector, it's basically including everything like fertilizer in plastics, in wood and pulp and everything. Like definitely the refining and chemical and cement and steel that we consume as a whole as a civilization. So 44% of industrial energy consumption is in the form of fuel. So they basically burn fuel whether it's coal or natural gas or oil or bio fuel. And they develop that energy that is needed to run this process. Only 21% is coming from the electricity. And the interesting is that they consume about 35% of their, the fuel as a feedstock for the running the process. I'll cover that one in detail. But right now the, and that is a very difficult to replace or without a disruptive technology. So if you look at the, so the major emitters, so here comes the major ones like 52% of the emissions is coming from iron and steel, cement, refining, ethylene and ammonia. And ammonia is basically consumed as a fertilizer, but it's basically for food production and everything, right? So we daily like we consume and I heard like Tom Haramillo from Stanford, he says like at least 50% of nitrogen atoms present in our body. At some point of their life cycle, they started, they touched the catalyst used for ammonia synthesis, the Haber-Walsh process. So that much like interlinked with the whole system is and 52% of the emission from the industrial sector is coming from the, this, this few, few, few industry. And that consumes about like that corresponds to 19% of global emission as per 2014 data. And now if we take a little bit, zoom in, look into this sector that how the emissions are coming, you see like basically the cement, steel, ammonia and ethylene, I basically focused on this four because this was consumed like 52%. And you can see that like the energy requirement, it consumes about, it generates about 20% of the emission. And that is basically the medium or low temperature heat and machine drives and driving machinery, things like that. So 40% of the emission is coming from the feedstock processing. And then rest of the emission like 35% is coming from the burning of the fuel to generate the high temperature heat. Okay, now if you look at into this area, like the feedstock, the conditioning of the feedstock, so like there are process like calcination or it is used as energy carrier like for steaming and reforming, where basically you are reforming the natural gas to produce the hydrogen or it is simply used as a carbon source. Like for example, naphtha cracker, which produced the polyethylene and it rejects some of the carbon. So these are the feedstock processing and that emits around 45%. So it's very difficult to decarbonize this sector without basically disruptive novel technologies. So we have to give a replacement of the carbon source. Okay, and then the high temperature heat, like more than 500 degrees Celsius, I think it's potentially the most attractive target for electrification. And then if you can address that, then you reduce the emission by 35%. And then we come to the low and mid-temperature heat. So we can basically address that by improving the energy efficiency and also through the electrification. So particularly the decarbonizing the chemical sector, and this is true for most of this industry that I mentioned like cement and steel, but since my background is chemical engineering, so I focused on this one. So chemical industry alone consumes about 28% of industrial and 10% of global energy. And most of them are fossil source, as I showed before, only 21% is from electricity, which could be also coming from the fossil source. So it's a big consumption of the global energy and it's a very big sector. And in that sector, they use as a carbon feedstock, like 58% of the consumption goes to the carbon feedstock, which they need as a carbon source. And the 42% goes for the generate the process energy around the process. And they right now use only 22% of the electricity, about 2.8 beta watt hour. Now, CCU has the potential to decouple the fossil resource and then reduce the emission up to 3.5 gigaton per year by 2030. So the technology is there, but what that would cost, that's the main thing. And to do that, if you want to just decouple the fossil source and then make it carbon neutral, we are requiring like 18.1 beta watt hour of low carbon electricity. And that will correspond to 55% of projected global electricity production in 2030. Only for one industry, that's basically chemical industry. So today, it consumes 10% of global emission, global energy, and it emits that much. And if you want to just reduce that emission and then make it neutral, so you are basically looking for 55% of projected global electricity production. So that's the kind of scale we were looking here. There are certain unique technical challenges to decarbonizing a chemical manufacturing sector and as well as the other industry sector like cement or steel making things like that. So the first one is the changing feedstock might require a new process. Like remember that carbon source and also like the step like calcination. So you just simply cannot replace them with electricity, right? So for example, if you want to replace the natural gas for SMR, you have to produce the hydrogen which is used to make ammonia. The alternative is basically you have to generate hydrogen from the water electrolyzer and then make the ammonia. So you're changing the process and this is where the disruptive novel technology research comes into place. The second one is basically the adaptation and scale up of alternative furnace for very high temperature heat requirement like more than 1000 degrees Celsius. So that area is still not matured enough for industrial deployment like particularly the burner design, how the fuel mixing and different kind of septic consideration. So those are like very unique challenges for the industry. And then the third one is basically because of the scale and the industry is highly integrated like for example, Italy manufacturing, you are using a temperature of like 800, 900 degrees Celsius. And then that wasted from that initial process, it basically used for driving other compressures in the downstream of the process and also to generate the stream. So if you change that thermal heating with the electrical heating, then you have to consider for additional requirement of driving those secondary processes. So it's a highly integrated process and if you change something at one place, then you have to address some more changes in some other place because big heads of integration and optimization. And then again, as we as we heard yesterday from Jennifer Ford from Exxon Mobil, that is a huge scale and and the long lifetime, typically it's a 40 plus years of facilities. So it takes like really time and capital intensive retrofitting. So even if you have some technology which is available, if you want to install it into the bigger scale, it is quite time consuming and the the downturn of the plant and all those things you have to consider. And it's also like relatively low profit margin and global competition for low cost production that the profit margin, particularly for the the chemical sector or cement, those are very low, like just few cents, maybe four kilogram. So you don't have much room to basically improve unless there is a big incentive and that could be like something like pricing carbon and things like that. And also likes the global community. So if you are taking all the states in a particular geo geographical region and if your peers are computer doesn't doesn't take that and they produce something in a cheaper price, then you are losing the market share, right? So those make it more complicated for new technology deployment. Okay, now look at the direct electrification of heating process in the industrial sector. So the heating, I think if you want to decarbonize the sector, the best approach is to basically go for the industrial the use of electricity for the high temperature heat. So the heating itself, if you can decarbonize the heat and I think Addison will cover it more detail, then you are halfway there to decarbonize the sector. So the heat offers the electrified heat offers many advantages, like it's a high, very high efficiency. It's a very precise heating. So you don't waste that much. It has a faster response time and it's stable. And it also offer high power density and greater depth of penetration in many cases. If you look at today's high TRL options, so electric boiler, electric art furnace, heat pumps for low or high medium or low temperature. And then the whole range of like microwave heating, mechanical fabric compression, even the membrane separation. So these are the new unit operations or new kind of the unit processes or equipment that we can we can depend on for low TRL development. Like here comes the research part, like high temperature heat pump. So we still need some development, then plasma clean and furnaces, then plasma heating or direct electrical heating of the ore. So these are the terms we have basically discussed for last two days, but these are the area we need to focus on for the research purpose and the opportunities. And then membrane separation for olefin. Although membrane separation is a quite old technology, but for olefin separation is not yet there. And then electro catalytic synthesis is the new way. We heard from Eric Duchen that we are the industry expect that by next five to seven years, we will be doing the electro catalytic synthesis in larger scale. And then in the other sector, like for example, the steel manufacturing like electro winning and direct hydrogen reduction and then electromagnetic heating technology. And I'll come to that in a second. So when you think about the electromagnetic heating, so it offers a wide range of opportunities. It's a very wide range of opportunities. It's a new paradigm in high energy catalytic processes. And what it does, like it has a like there are multiple, there could be induction heating that could be radio frequency, there could be microwave that could be infrared or the ultraviolet. And it's a new paradigm in high energy catalytic processes that is an opportunity. So you can get a very high temperature gradient in a relatively short distance in a even millimeter range. And it has a high penetration depth and also the precise heating. So those are the benefits that offers the electromagnetic oil technologies. But the research has been going on, but this is an area I think is a lot of opportunities and potentials are there for the academic research and the industrial research. And thanks a lot for Shafiq Zafar because there's a lot of discussion about this one and I got a lot of insight from him for this slide. And then, okay, like now we talk about a little bit of indirect electrification and the way I define the indirect electrification, you can use the electricity to generate hydrogen and use that hydrogen as an energy vector or some sort of like driving the process like power generation. Okay. And then if you're using the carbon neutral electricity, then how does the overall efficiency looks like in terms of compared to the thermal process? Here is a chart. Again, I credit this to Shafiq because I got the insight from him. So if you supply like one megawatt of electricity to an electrolyzer to produce hydrogen, you get pretty good efficiency over there. But when you are taking that hydrogen and pressurizing it to the liquid form, you are losing like almost like 42% of that efficiency, of that electricity input to the electrolyzer. So there has been discussion and then, but you have to be careful about the life cycle efficiency loss and or the life cycle overall efficiency. So it might be better for using hydrogen as a source for different chemicals, but hydrogen is in power, like the power generation is in hydrogen, whether it is carrier as a ammonia or is it as a liquid hydrogen? So you have to be careful about the efficiency. In some cases, it might be an option if you are running an offshore FPSO, then maybe this is the way you have to go for hydrogen power. But in onshore, you have to think about which offers the better efficiency. Okay. Now here's a little bit of what Liang said, like what are the potential and what kind of challenges we are looking for. So as I said before, the share of industrial electricity today is 21%. Okay. Now, if you and the 44% is basically used for generating energy, 35% for fuel as feedstock and 21% has electricity, right? So now if you are thinking of using the electricity, electrification of the industry, so that let's assume that we will be using electricity for 65% of that demand, like 21% for electricity plus 44% as a energy demand. And how does the situation looks like? Okay. This much of electricity, like almost 27,000 TWh of electricity we need, and that has to be carbon neutral to decarbonize the industrial energy source, that 65% of the total energy need. Okay. And today's use is basically only like 5,700 TWh. Okay. And then these are the electricity production, like in terms of the total electricity production, whether it's a green or brown or black, in China, in the US and in the EU all together. So you can see the magnitude of the gap we are looking at. And then you have to be really careful about how you plan the technology deployment and use your electricity for what purpose. So here is the share of electricity used in energy mix, like the current penetration for this major three sector, like with its concrete, iron and steel, and chemical and petrochemicals roughly 20%. And with that 20%, 20% we are at here. So if you are increasing the penetration by a factor of two, so all of a sudden you need like almost like 11,000, 12,000 TWh of electricity, which is more than the total electricity production of China and the EU combined. So this kind of, and this is where the major investment and policy and the infrastructure development, those comes to meet those needs. Because if we are expecting the industry to develop technology which runs purely on electrification, we have to make sure that we have sufficient electricity available today to drive those process because nobody wants to invest billions of dollars and then basically shut down the plant because there is not enough available to run the process. So recently like some countries, like I was talking with Philip Lawline and then this idea of this comparison came from him and thanks to Philip. And he was mentioning that France is talking about installing six new nuclear reactor to generate extra electricity and one of them will be dedicated for electrification for decarbonization of the iron and steel industry. So we need this sort of regulatory involvement and this sort of investment to meet the future demand, which you could think. So this is my last chart. So after attending all these three days, like two days and then discussion and listening to different experts. So I see like in looking forward, like decarbonizing the industrial sector, so it cannot be like a single option. So rather I see more like as a menu options and you have to select the menu as particular situation and the needs. And there are multiple of them. So the first one is the alternative feedstock. So if we want to use the non-fossil carbon source, like we can think of bio oil and then biomass or biogas or the capture CO2 to run some of the processes. And that is basically the delivering the carbon source that the industry need. And also like we can use the carbon-free hydrogen and that will replace some of the natural gas and like demand to the industry like and that can decarbonize some of the sector like ammonia production. The second one is the energy efficiency. So there are still a lot of room to improve the energy efficiency and the continuous improvement. And you can get like 10-15% improvement in your energy use and then reduce the emission accordingly. The third one is basically the electrification of heat. So we need to switch to furnaces and boilers and heat pumps and that runs on carbon-neutral electricity. And also the new production process where we can use the electrification directly. Like for example, electric cracker with e-pornage and compressor, maybe plasma cleans. So this sort of technology are being developed and industry is working of them and that is a direct electrification. But again, before deployment, they have to make sure that there is sufficient supply of the electricity around this process. And we have to solve the intermittency and the availability of renewable and all those issues. And another very important one is the disruptive process and I think here the research is that the significant contribution can be coming here. Like we can always look on the work on low-carbon technologies to replace the current process. And here are the few names only. Like for example, we can work on like high-temperature heat pump development, furnace or plasma assisted reforming or electro catalytic synthesis of olefins and alcohol. This area I think Matt Cannon is going to talk about this afternoon or the next session. And then microwave or plasma assisted pyrolysis and drying or plasma direct electrical heating of ore or direct hydrogen reduction or IR curing. So this sort of technologies will be using the electricity and it will basically replace the existing thermal process. But significantly more time consuming and probably all these technologies are low to medium PRL. But we need to work on all these aspects. And then the last but very sure option like CO2 capture and storage. And also we can use that CO2 for a circular carbon economy. And we can use that as a feed to the alternative feedstock. So last but not least. So I'm really thankful for Shafiq and Fili for a lot of insights and a lot of discussion. And we are fortunate to have Shafiq in the next session. And then you heard the references. And thank you very much for your attention. And I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. Back to you, Lian. Terrific. Thank you, Amit. I think, you know, I really love the slide number six, which is give the number what is the potential for the electrification. Then I hope we will have a more discussion later on regarding what is the potential for the fully decarbonization. 85% and how we do alternative for the feedstock to further lower the emissions, etc. So okay, without further ado, let's move on to our next panelist, Edison Stark. And Edison is a director for energy in the environment for Clark Street Associates. And, you know, he has a very broad background. And one of them I'd like to highlight is a former program director for RPA-E and manages energy and the water nexus program for RPA-E. Edison, I will hand this over to you. Thank you very much for the introduction. Excited to hop into this conversation and to pick up where I'm at left off. I think it's a great opportunity to drill into one technology area specifically in one problem, which is something that I spent all the last couple of years digging into is specifically the process heat question. And I want to go ahead and dig in a little bit further on that aspect and kind of re-categorize how we're thinking about the industrial challenge to kind of show that you know, there are a mix of process opportunities. There are a mix of innovation, but really, you know, thinking about how we systematically go after process heat is an important piece. And I know we'll be hearing from John and Andrew after me about specific solutions in that space. So I hope this will be a good transition to frame up why what they're doing is so important. Okay, great. So I'm gonna go ahead and move that out of the way. I'm not in my usual working spot. I'm actually right now at my brother's house in Iowa. So I'm standing at a window sill, very different than my usual massive screen back in my office. So the point where I'm going to talk about today is the fact that if we are really serious about decarbonizing industry, the first thing and the most cross cutting opportunity for us is to decarbonize heat itself. So let's talk a bit about what is this opportunity today. You know, if you start to drill down into understanding every individual process that needs to be innovated, decarbonized, there's a reason people go out and say, oh, industry is the hard to decarbonize sector because you have thousands of processes. And so to re-innovate every single one of them would be an intimate and incredible challenge. And the capital return on that would be very hard for any individual investor. So if you look at the industrial sector in this super detailed Sankey diagram that was developed by other lab in San Francisco, it gives you a sense as you quickly break out in industrial sector, you get thousands of small processes that all within themselves would be a very difficult channel to challenge to decarbonize. However, you know, when you really start to drill into what is the energy usage within industry, you start to see that actually you do have an opportunity by focusing on heat itself because industrial heat is truly a cross cutting challenge, but also therefore an opportunity. When you drill down into global energy demand, as we all know, industry is one third. That's what we've been talking about yesterday, today, and we'll continue to talk about. And when you break that down, however, you realize that heat itself is three quarters of that or a full 23% of global energy demand, which suddenly you start to see just process heat for industry offers an opportunity to do broad decarbonization across the industrial sector across all different processes. And you can start to look at it and realize that industrial process heat is generated by a few set of unit operations and is standardized across industry steam is steam is steam all around the world, and it's used as a common carrier for a reason, you know, and similarly at higher temperatures air and other sorts of combustion gases. Now, when you break this down, this gives kind of a clearer picture of where these opportunities are. And as we can see, it's spread across temperature ranges high temperature heat, in this case, category, categorized slightly differently from what was just shown by on it, 400 Celsius above is 11% of global energy demand. Low temperature 150 C and below so predominantly steam is 7%. And then mid range, a mix of steam and oils and other sorts of carriers at 5%. And so when you scale this out and look at this as global impact numbers, the impact of decarbonizing fossil heat is 85 exajoules a year, it's a full 10 gigaton per year CO2 reduction opportunity by looking and drilling into some specific unit operations. Now, we do have to admit that there are other challenges within industry, some industrial missions are inherent to their process chemistry. And we all recognize the challenge and steel and cement, each being very large challenges within themselves and other sorts of petrochemical processes you have process emissions from what you're trying to do. But the most ubiquitous source of industrial emissions is in the generation of heat across all scales and temperatures. And so this therein lies our opportunity. So it's a burning problem. Today, when you look at the generation of heat, you can break this down and look at the fact that, you know, of these of these emissions, it's categorized predominantly, where globally we're using a large fraction of coal to directly generate process heat, natural gas, if you happen to be in a location where you have natural gas infrastructure and then fuel oil where you don't. Other is today about the fraction of where electricity and other sorts of biomass combustion. And if you look at the US itself, heat is used widely across processes. You know, there's no one size fits all solution here, which is important to realize when you look at categorizing industrial processes and the the scale of thermal demand. It it it varies widely. You know, one thing that when I really started digging this problem is one thing you realize quickly is the vast the large majority of facilities demand for thermal is small. So if you look across the manufacturing sector, 65% of facilities have an average demand below 10 megawatts. You know, when many people think about industrial processes, we're thinking about things like oh, people's minds will flash to the largest auto manufacturer is the biggest refineries where you're talking about large processes, thermal loads and the hundreds of thousands of megawatts. But that's a small fraction of facilities, big opportunities, but small fraction of facilities. Rather, what this tells us is we need to be thinking and focusing on modular solutions designed at the scales of the unit operations that exist today, the furnaces, the boilers that already exist. How do we design our system to be deployed at those same scales and to be used by distributed facilities around the world, small manufacturing plants in industrial parks in Omaha, you know, less about large refineries that already have access to hydrogen pipelines or large facilities in the Gulf Coast. Also, as we highlighted before, we have a distribution of solutions that are needed across temperatures. Again, if you visit, if you dig into the data, U.S. data and look at the associated CO2 emissions with different process heat utilization, you see that as you look across temperature, you have a few places where, you know, you see these kind of step changes, for example, low, medium and high pressure steam bringing you up to the low 200s Celsius higher pressure and steam. But then up here, you run into very different, discrete steps where you have process heat demands ranging from these low hundreds to high thousands of temperatures. And you have existing low cost capital solutions that exist in these space, boilers to service these low temperatures, process heaters and furnaces that service middle ranges and electric resistive immersion heaters that exist. Now, what we see is you have to be able to compete with, you know, the incumbent technology, which is an inherent challenge here. Natural gas, coal is very cheap to be able to procure and use compared to direct utilization of grid electricity. And I know that, you know, the following two panelists will talk about how they solve the challenge of electric resistive being very expensive when you're doing direct baseload from the grid. You know, there are other ways to bridge this and I'm looking forward to their conversation around this. But the point is there's scales across temperature and size that we need to be able to bridge for all different types of processes. And this is the focus that we need to be able to have. So when I explored this with my former RPE colleague and co-author on a report we wrote for Juul at the beginning of last year, we pulled together a framework and an innovation agenda that bridges these industrial needs with kind of a roadmap for researchers. And this is what I want to walk through right now. So to be able to provide zero carbon industrial heat, we can think about it through kind of four main buckets of innovation. The first is the fuel switching. So this is what I'm going to do when we think about bio oils or using but direct biomass combustion or even thinking about next generation things like developing bio coke substitutes to be able to use for metallurgy or things like that where there's processes and innovation going on to be able to make direct coal substitutes where we can then replace the fossil fuels coming in and being burnt in boilers or furnaces or directly in processes to be able to then go into our central thermal distribution systems to drive processes. Also focusing on the direct utilization of zero carbon heat where it is applicable is an important part of this solution. This could be impaling you know thinking about how we more smartly integrate future industrial development with either solar thermal or centralized storage of large scale applications of solutions like what the other panelists are working on. Also being able to look at this district and integrated steam whether it be sourced from geothermal or nuclear or other sorts of or solar thermal systems for direct zero carbon heat into industrial facilities. Also the direct electrification of heat is absolutely a very important opportunity whether it be through direct resistive means direct resistive heating of processes utilizing microwave heating other things also exactly right in the innovation of higher temperature heat pumps to be able to serve the higher temperature needs to be able to drive down or make economical the direct use of grid electricity for the for the direct processing and production of industrial process heat. Ultimately we need to think about technologies that enable better heat management as well to be able to think about how we integrate and cascade processes focus on district heating opportunities for waste heat to be utilized from industrial facilities at other industrial facilities or other uses and being able to better integrate looking at the development of things like higher efficiency or higher higher effectiveness insulations advanced materials to enable that and also you know technologies to be able to make for example industrial cold chains more efficient like radiative cooling work that's been going on at Stanford for the past 10 years. There's a lot of exciting opportunities in all these spaces but there's also cross cutting fundamental thermal systems engineering and science that needs to be done. Some of the cross cutting R&D needs to be able to enable the technologies that Ahmed was talking about to be able to talk to be able to develop new solutions across this kind of envisioned opportunity for a zero carbon heat is you know we need technologies and low to loss transfer and storage heat and higher temperatures storage media things like what's being worked on at Entora you know but also other other temperature ranges and the ability to be able to transfer at lower cost heat to be able to move spatially. Thermally and chemically stable materials at high temperature and novel transfer heat media are important if we're going to be thinking about replacing the direct combustion in high temperature processing you know we definitely also need materials engineered for thermal control you know to be able to include tunable conductivity emissivity absorptivity of all you know materials to be able to do direct application if we're going to utilize local radiative transfer be able to drive a localized heating. We need thermal and flow devices for high temperature that are able enabling novel heat transfer media and lastly we need to focus on engineering again not just science and engineering science but we really need to be able to focus on developing and scaling up lab proven technologies but also the engineering and and and academic work to be able to focus on the downscaling and modularization of utility scale technologies you know goes back to the heart of one of the first things that I said is most solutions need to be scaled down to 10 megawatts and below to be meaning meaningfully deployed across industry and manufacturing needs in the US and around the world and a lot of solutions run into that challenge of how do you get into truly modular deployable systems that can be downscaled and be economically competitive and utilizable at small scales and that's going to be a big challenge that we're going to need to work on to be able to truly enable broad electrification decarbonization of processing so you know more detail on the roadmap that we've laid out you know was in the paper we recently published in jewel at the beginning of last year lays out some of these r&d opportunities in more detail and kind of the cutting edge of what's going on out there obviously you should I know I'm sure Arun mentioned this at the beginning during his plenary but you know really highly you know really insightful view is that he and Ravi and Asha were to be able to pull together in their peace and nature energy last year and then you know lastly I know that I saw this as a reference and in the previous presentation but risman if you really want a big tome to lay out and think about all these really detailed opportunities this is a great place to look so thank you very much happy to speak with anyone about you know general thinking here but looking forward to continuing this discussion on the panel okay thank you Edison and you know wonderful deep dive into the system opportunities and challenges to decarbonize the heat so let's move on and we as the next two panelists will start up companies entrepreneurs are going to share with us as as Edison mentioned the specific technology how they help to decarbonize or electrify the industrial sectors so the next one we have John Adano and John is a CEO from Randall Enigin and John the floor is yours thank you it's an honor to be with you and it's wonderful to follow I mean and Edison in that I think you've already said three quarters of what I wanted to say and so I'll repeat some of what you said but Rondo is a two-year-old company that is a team of folks who've been working on industrial heat renewable industrial heat some of us together for more than 15 years the company is right now making the transition from the laboratory to volume production with first installations this year we are backed by I don't need to tell you about breakthrough energy ventures and I think Andrew will talk about their focus as well I think they're they've recognized that industrial heat is a critically important sector we're also backed by energy impact partners their deep decarbonization group that is backed by the electric power industry because the thing that I think Andrew and I are both going to say is that we have the tools at hand today for very large decarbonization that is profitable for the industries that are being decarbonized which is a necessary condition for the giant private capital flows that are needed to transform our industrial base I think you've already seen many versions of this slide and but to bring it close to home here in California we burn more natural gas for industrial heat than we do for electric power generation it's just industrial heat is more than 70 million tons a year the previous work from stanford has looked at the pathways here and observed that among all of california's sectors this is the one that has not reduced any intensity or emissions transportation electricity you know the grid have been changing and again it's been because there has been there have not been solutions available to make this transformation and the policy tools things like cap and trade have so far really not driven investment in new things because it's a hard challenge as I mentioned some of us have been working together for 15 years on direct solar thermal solutions to this problem they have of course challenges with both temperature and storage technologies and we're going to talk about that more in a minute at glass point I was the first employee at glass point and we wound up building pilots in california 3000 megawatt pipeline and the 300 megawatts that's running today in the middle east according to the IEA is more than half of all the solar industrial heat that's running in the world today so that says there's less than 0.6 gigawatts running today and you know that this is a giant challenge and why hasn't it happened well first of all those solar thermal technologies without energy storage that dramatically increases their cost they can't deliver 24 hour there are some applications like the ones that we identified at glass point in mining and fuel production and some other processes that can deal with that intermittency without other energy storage but the vast majority of industrial heat demand of course requires continuity those technologies were one example of being able to cover a significant portion of industrial heat demand but huge areas left out a lot of the technologies that are looked at for electrification today have problems with efficiency when we start looking at temperature and many of them for example heat pumps replacing a six inch steam line with a 36 inch water line yeah there are a lot of university campuses around doing those things and Stanford has been working on some of those things as well that infrastructure overhaul is sometimes an invisible obstacle to really making the transition even if it's technically possible and you know there are there are zero carbon fuels that are available at tiny supply you know a few percent of world primary energy demand and only at four or five times the fundamental production cost versus today's fuels so there are places where very strong policies have been driving them forward and there's tremendous demand but it's not something that can really go to scale and there are other technologies that have permitting problems or cost problems or selective availability problems that could meet the the challenges of temperature and continuity maybe cost but it's some time from now maybe the answer is all of the above the the like from my perspective and I think Andrew is going to say the same thing there is a solution set that is emerging now because of a fundamental transformation that has happened in the world all the stuff that I was doing in solar thermal never quite made the transition to not just being cheaper than conventional electricity but being conventional cheaper than fuel and the great news is that what's happened in wind and what's happened in photovoltaic solar this curve is lasard backwards and well forwards Los Angeles area utility scale energy as a service contracted fixed price energy without volatility or other assets compared to the cost of burning natural gas whether you make baby food or glass or fuels or cement in California net of California's very low fuel price with respect to the rest of the world and quite modest carbon price half of what it is in Canada a fraction of what it is in Europe today and intermittent renewable electricity which by itself is not a solution to industrial heat but as a primary energy supply intermittent renewable electricity is crossing over right now and the one thing that we know for certain is that this curve will continue the learning curve that you know the there are some right now supply chain disruptions we've seen ppa prices rise a little bit but there's no question about the long-term trend on either of those curves and if we to so to the extent that we can deal with renewable electricity's characteristics principally that of intermittency you know we have a tool at hand where the zero carbon pathway is lower cost than business as usual unlike carbon capture technologies that no matter how great the capex comes if I'm burning 100 units of fuel and I want to sequester it I need to burn best case 10 more typically 20 more units of fuel so it is a permanent millstone around on production costs this pathway as technologies to harness this fuel source this energy source emerge it's a completely different trajectory and you know this forecast really misses some important things that are happening in the world right now we're sitting in portugal today running a cement plant or any industrial facility that blue line is twice the price and last year in portugal a year before pardon me electricity ppa was $13 per megawatt hour today in saudi with no carbon price at kingdom economics it's more than $45 per megawatt hour for industrial heat last year in saudi $10 and 40 cents electricity ppa we are in a fundamentally new world to the extent that this can be harnessed and that's why we and others are you're going to see more I think companies going after what turns out to be about a $2 trillion market opportunity in you know harness harnessing this and putting it to work but it's better than that in that this is contract electricity price if you're willing today when people buy natural gas they're price takers it's kind of challenging in europe today and we've seen enormous volatility over time in the us if you're willing to be a price taker and you can participate directly in electricity markets you can have annual average electricity prices that are a fraction of natural gas prices depending on where you are in the world you know on this day a year ago if you would be able to participate in wholesale electricity markets you as a generator you would have gotten $27 a megawatt hour daily if you were an industrial user with a direct access you would have paid $12 more than that and you would be well above your gas price but if you had been able to buy that day in the cheapest four hours you would have paid about a dollar per megawatt hour and okay lift it up to 12 a fraction again of what it costs for fuel use and this is true again in place after place around the world in texas today if you're running petrochemical in west texas with no carbon price in the system uh you know your heat costs from natural gas given prices is around eight dollars a megawatt hour seven something you would never even if you could participate without access wheeling charges you would you know elect continuous electricity whether it's an electric boiler or an arc furnace or whatever what people think of as electrification we know it's way more expensive but if at that same location you were using a technology that gathered all the energy it needs four hours a day you would have been last sorry this is 2019 data your annual average electricity price would have been a third the cost of burning natural gas and you know there are other interesting examples had you been in this particular spot in Nebraska or this particular spot in montana colorado california there are places where market conditions are such that your annual average energy costs people are paying you to take the energy those dynamics are going to change of course they look a lot like the dynamics that we've seen in the natural gas markets there are weird dynamics associated with flaring and the you know the shale revolution caused all kinds of spot things i would argue electricity markets are much more complicated but you know given what is going on with renewable deployment um industrial heat participating in these markets is a giant new source of flexible load you know what people call indirect electrification ken caldera and his students uh ruggles wrote a very interesting paper last year on the system level impacts of in of this indirect electrification and you know indirect electrification has to solve this particular problem you know the and the the faster we can charge the better we are in an electricity grid where we can be a tranche of demand um yeah so this is of course the current the common problem and now we have to go back to those criteria of continuity temperature cost efficiency one of the things of course one of the tools in the toolbox are electrochemical processes notably hydrogen where we could move energy from noon to midnight and from july to january but i think i meet you said like it's there's a giant demand for for green hydrogen as chemical feedstock using it burning it you know it's a little bit like i don't know replacing uh you know replace using cognac instead of beer it's just a valuable thing and it's inefficient in terms of electricity to heat any direct thermal storage system electricity to converts to heat at 100 efficiency your toast through your hairdryer and electric thermal storage systems any of them are going to be above about 90 efficiency because the only place energy is lost is through insulation and if you're clever about it those losses can be very low so now the question is okay what are the technologies there are older things like the molten salt systems which have been in use for a long time they top out at about 570 and have many safety and cost and reliability challenges there are several folks building various versions of rocks in a box uh pebble bed uh even fluidized bed systems that require turbo both of these require turbo machinery during charging that is if we want to charge rapidly they're using a heat transfer fluid for uh charging and so you have high power turbo machinery that's needed there's some low very low temperature technologies and then there's interesting emerging research right there's an australian company that's looking at liquid uh silica phase change silicon at 1414 degrees and who's going to talk about you know again very interesting early stage stuff using other storage materials which are conductive there are other folks looking at direct conductive storage materials as well there's a there's a MIT back startup that's working in that area um one of my personal favorites is in a Swedish company that's using both liquid aluminum and liquid sodium for its heat transfer you know make no have no little problems the the issue is how do we what technologies are available that can go to very large scale how long will it take for a technology to become proven and there is one thermal storage technology that's been in use for 200 years storing high temperature heat at 1500 c at blast furnaces it is aluminum silica aluminum silicate brick it's made from various kinds of dirt from some of the most abundant minerals on earth these so-called blast stoves or calper stoves run 50 years between overhauls being heated to 1500 and cooled on about a one hour cycle so dozens of times per day we found a way to take another 100 year old technology electric resistance heating the same materials that have been used since the 1930s and exploit the physics principle on the left radiation heat transfer for charging and radiation heat transfer and i think andrew you may say some more about it is extremely efficient it rises as the fourth power of temperature the critical matter in using brick is its wonderful heat capacity and durability and strength it's brittle and it's low heat conductivity and our solution found us a way of uniformly rapidly heating brick and and then pulling heat out of it either for boiler applications i think adison you pointed out that a huge portion of industrial heat transfer in fact about half of it is driving all kinds of processes from making chemicals to fuels to food and so heat steam heat transfer is up to about 500 maybe 600 degrees but that brick material and at 500 600 degrees this becomes a solution for both the electricity demand and the lower temperature steam demand across lots of industrial processes cogeneration from fossil fuel everybody knows it's more than 80 efficient its efficiency is not 100 not because of the 3 energy loss at the generator but because of the stack losses and the lower heating value associated with burning fuel to drive it end to end an electrically driven cogeneration the versus the energy in both forms that are delivered again with any electric thermal system is going to be above 95 percent end to end and again taking intermittent low-cost zero carbon energy to deliver all of the behind the meter power and heat is a really you know important advance these technologies also address the higher temperature demands you over the next 30 days where we are currently engaged with four international cement companies on a couple of different technology pathways and there'll be some announcements shortly and as a result i mean there are sectors where the the indirect electrification solutions that we're pursuing can't address i think andrew's got higher temperature capabilities as well and addison you mentioned this and just for scale this year the world will pass a thousand mega a thousand gigawatts of solar in the world a thousand gigawatts of wind in the world that 85 exajoules you talked about if you convert for capacity factor that's 9,000 gigawatts right we need about a 5x increase in world renewables on top of everything else just to repower this but if the economics are right right if if doing that has economic tailwinds you know that's the wonderful that we have solutions that are going to become economical everywhere in the world if we just look at california on this i'm just about done i know i'm going over time here in the great state of california i think last year the peak electricity demand in the system was 47 gigawatts we have more generation capacity than that of course we have about 28 gigawatts of pv installed and this is everybody who is amidst 25 000 tons a year or more every industrial heat user and you know that's the breakdown of who uses what total trillion pt used just repowering that we're going to get some of it from absorbing what's going on in the grid but for scale excuse me that's 100 gigawatts of new generation that's needed so you know and about half of that there are there's land nearby the industrial facilities that can carry that generation without moving it moving through the grid and then there are other areas where it has to move through the grid and as california again this example looks at decarbonization pathways the state is looking at funding carbon capture pipelines looking at rebuilding its natural gas infrastructure to carry hydrogen obviously down this track we need to stiffen the grid we need to expand its ability to carry energy and we need to reform a number of policies if we do that you know epre did a look forward at what role electrification is going to play i think the great news is that electrification is going to go much faster because it's got tailwinds and emerging technologies that will make this possible and those by doing that you know that if we have another 100 gigawatts of generations sitting around powering industrial heat that generation will be releasable to the grid on demand and really transform the total cost of abatement when you look economy-wide this is one of several areas that need a lot more investigation there's a lot of great european work on what they call sector coupling and you know i think so far caldera and ruggles have done the best work that i've seen on some of indirect electrification california is considering its low carbon futures in the development of the scoping plan by the air resources board right now this whole topic we're talking about is not yet modeled in decarbonization futures you know our electricity tariffs the glass factory in fresno when wholesale electricity prices in july are zero is not allowed to buy electricity below a hundred dollars a megawatt hour so it's burning gas you know there are a number of matters to address but with those man you know these are there are interesting important research topics that you've also talked about but there are policy right so you know i think the punch line is that there's been lots of discussion that decarbonization is going to be more costly and i think given what the solar and wind industry have already done with these technologies coming to coming to the to the market that you know the future is the the green premium is history thanks wonderful thank you john appreciate and uh we have about uh that the 25 minutes left so i was a quick reminder for the audience you know please send your questions through the chat and the q&a and we're going to clean up after andrew's remark so that our next panelist is andrew ponec and he is a co-founder and the ceo of uh untorrent energy and uh you know i want to see is the lamina of stanford and have been given many talks through different energy seminars or other seminars welcome back andrew all right thank you and um the good news is even though we're running a little bit behind uh you know i think just about everything i was going to say now has been said uh so thank you thank you to all the other the panelists for doing such a great dive into industrial electrification and industrial heat uh makes my job really easy um and uh specifically to john great to uh to uh you know hear a little bit about what you're doing and i think we're very aligned in the way we're we're seeing the world and so i could almost just skip my talk and just say everything john said uh is true and and we agree with uh but i will go through a few things and try to highlight uh you know some interesting things that we've found um so yeah again and for energy is uh you know young young company uh backed by some of the same uh investors like breakthrough energy ventures uh that the john's company is is also backed by and uh we're targeting some of the same problems so a lot of similarities there um you've seen this a million times so the only thing i'm going to say here is you know you see these sorts of charts and it seems like the the you know the the pies the pie slices change size all the time that the important thing to note here is that uh if you look at this pie for global you often see this where industry is a huge portion if you look at the same pie for the united states it's a little bit smaller so if you're ever wondering like why people are sometimes showing industry being smaller one of those lices in one time being the biggest really has to do with the global stuff and i really want to focus um you know just all of our thoughts on the global problem here you know just to look at industrial energy use you know the us and you combined is less than 20 percent of that energy use so any of the solutions that we're talking about you know they can't just work here or in europe they have to be applied globally um so uh john and i did not uh collaborate on our slides beforehand um but i think we have a very uh a very similar slide here just looking at at primary energy and and i think this is really the the important mindset to be in if we're going to replace fossil fuels in industry we need a new source of primary energy it could be nuclear it could be biofuels those are really the only other two areas besides fossil fuels that that are are feasible but uh you know there's a lot of headwinds that uh would prevent them from getting to scale fast i think it is pretty clear that solar and wind have undergone an incredible transformation last decade um and certainly you know that's where you know we're putting our bets on what's going to uh you know be the the primary energy of the future and i want to just emphasize one more thing here about primary energy you know this is not the same as grid parity you know there there was one crossover point which was when is solar and wind electricity cheaper than grid electricity we're talking about a much more important and more fundamental crossover point which is when you know solar and wind are cheaper than the coal gas or oil that could be used to generate electricity or could be used to generate heat um so that that's really an important thing to focus on and and that also kind of brings to mind why industrial heat is a harder thing to be carbonized than the electricity sector is because solar and wind have to compete against the raw fossil fuel cost not the cost of electricity after you've burned the fossil fuels in a plant that you have to pay back over you know 20 or 30 year lifetime so again another chart that everybody has showed in one one version or another you know where this energy is being used and at what temperatures fortunately i was kind of looking at everybody's slides through and i think all of these numbers are matching up between our between our presentations but but i think there has been a lot of focus and and rightly so on these sort of big three and especially the very high temperature use cases for heat um and that's something that certainly antora is very interested in as well we have a very high temperature thermal energy storage system that i'll talk about later but i don't want to miss the fact that yes more than half of this problem is at relatively low temperatures you know companies like rondo antora and many others will be able to decarbonize these areas with clean electricity from from solar and wind it still takes a lot of work there's a lot of regulatory issues like john was just mentioning how do you get access to that cheap variable electricity from the grid but certainly you know at least we think these are these are inevitable transitions to thermal energy storage and electrification of this sort of low temperature heat i love what addison said steam is steam is steam you know that that's one of the advantages of this half of the pie the low temperature half most of that steam it's very easy to make the case uh to to transition over away from fossil fuels uh you know i think the you know there are a few different uh ways to do this and again you know this has been talked about a few different ways um you know i think it's important to put a bunch of different energy sources on the same cost uh chart which is not frequently done we've been kind of surprised at how often it's it's not done here i have dollar supreme and btube because that's what uh industry uh in the united states uses to to look at fuel costs primarily um you know really easy conversion factor is is there's basically a factor of three between cents per kilowatt hour and dollars per mb to you um and so you know if you if you take uh you know any of these numbers and divide by three you can get to cents per per kilowatt hour approximately um so looking at this with natural gas uh you know that kind of high price is something that's maybe more representative of what you see uh in europe or asia where you may be reliant on lng or you just have had you know more price volatility that natural gas price uh on the low end is something more like what you'd see in the united states since we've had historically very low natural gas prices um you know and this is another thing that that john mentioned you know ccs is strictly going to be more expensive than the fuel we're using right now uh and so this is uh assuming about a 60 per ton and 125 per ton adder for a per ton of co2 emissions adder on top of the natural gas prices for the high and low ccs uh renewable natural gas you know is very expensive uh and it has a pretty limited resource space uh another thing that john mentioned again uh and so you know probably isn't sort of the the the ultimate solution here um and and you know one thing that that i think i've seen the biggest gap between what people in industry are talking about and what people in academia or a lot of this sort of uh you know kind of think tank type folks are talking about is green hydrogen um you know it's not often put again on the same scale that this dollars per kilogram hydrogen has become a a a metric that people use um most when we go and talk to plant operators i would imagine if you talk to john ccs exactly the same thing they either have already said there's no way that hydrogen is going to be a cost effective thing to burn for heat it may be useful in other areas you know as a as a chemical input but it's not useful to burn for heat either they already have that opinion or as soon as you do this conversion right there in front of them they say oh okay i see you know even if hydrogens at two dollars or even one dollar it's not competitive uh to burn for heat in in my plant um and then it's it's again the same same story electricity uh variable electricity this is important variable electricity is now very cheap and that can come either uh directly from building a solar wind plant you know near your industrial site or as long as you have the right regulations in place getting it from the grid during times for example in california when there's a lot of solar on the grid or say in the midwest when there's a lot of wind on the grid and you know it's really really important can't be emphasized enough this only works if you're talking about the variable electricity it's only if you're able to utilize low capacity factor electricity do you get these low prices if you want base load electricity to run your plant uh you know to turn it into heat then it's uncompetitive in the same way that say hydrogen is uncompetitive for heat so the the real key here is how do you utilize low capacity factor uh electricity you know in um uh inconsistent electricity to run a consistent industrial process now everything i've said here you know applies to you know uh electrification uh that you know ronda is doing and torus doing anyone else is doing with thermal energy storage i will just very briefly go into what an torus system looks like um so you know our our approach to energy storage is is a little different we are utilizing very very high temperature energy storage so one of the interesting things we found when we were doing sort of a survey of this space of how we might want to store energy is that there's already a very widely scaled industrial process that stores huge amounts of energy in carbon blocks at temperatures above 2000c and this is graphitization furnaces so these are electrically heated furnaces that exist in almost every country in the world but to make graphite and that graphite then is used in things like electric arc furnaces so it's one of the biggest industrial commodities in the world is this intermediary product in metallurgy it's also carbon blocks are used in the aluminum industry and so our system is essentially a graphitization furnace with the ability to extract some of that energy instead of only putting the energy in and so in our system we take solar and wind you know either locally or from the grid we resistively heat same way that john was mentioning from rondo we resistively heat this graphite to very very high temperatures and then you know we have a different extraction method so rather than you know blow air through channels in the in the ceramic as rondo's doing or you know through a box of rocks actually I loved that john mentioned rocks in a box we call it box of rocks but it's the same thing you know there's there's a whole slew of companies that are doing something similar there you know so rather than then do that with a convective heat transfer we use entirely radiative heat transfer in our system so what what comes out of our system is is essentially high intensity light when you're storing energy at these very very high temperatures everything's glowing everything's glowing white hot if you've ever seen a picture of a steel factory something like that at those temperatures everything is very very bright we essentially just open a shutter on the side of this box holding all this hot carbon and we get this beam of high intensity light coming out one thing you can do with that light is you can you know heat your industrial process so you can use that to make steam you could make a thermal oil you could heat up air you could do whatever you want with that light as far as heat you know this this we can go up to 1500c or even higher but it actually turns out almost every industrial process uses temperatures less than 1500c so there's not much benefit in going higher than that the other thing that's kind of unique to antora though is that with that high intensity light we can convert that light directly back to electricity using photovoltaics so photovoltaics are already really good at converting light into electricity and antora has developed a modified photovoltaic cell that can convert that light into electricity you know solid state no moving parts very simple very reliable you know we've currently demonstrated about 40 efficiency in the future we hope to get to about 50 efficiency but this is really a unique capability of the system that you know this ability to either discharge the energy that you have in the system as heat or is electricity depending on the industrial need the only other thing i'll mention here just taking a closer look at the system is that our system is divided into you can kind of see that there are are certain blocks there of the system it's a very modular system each unit is about one megawatt of thermal output and 50 hours of storage and then you just stack up as many of them as you need and this gets to Addison's point from earlier you know there are a lot of industrial sites that are less than 10 megawatts of load and so we really think it's important to be able to address all of those that you have a pretty small building block size that you can just you know stack up together in order to get to the industrial demand at the facility that you're working with maybe the and the last thing i'll mention about the system is the the energy density when you're storing energy in carbon at these temperatures is a little mind-boggling we're actually pretty close to the energy density of liquid hydrogen within the system we're far better than 700 bar hydrogen you know compressed hydrogen and and this is something that i think one is is important in a lot of industrial sites because you often don't have a huge amount of space a huge amount of land to store this energy and so it's important that it be compact but also i think you know people often forget that that you know hydrogen also needs to be stored you know if you're going to take renewable electricity and and convert it into into hydrogen and then burn that hydrogen you also need to need to store the hydrogen there's energy costs that other presenters have mentioned there but there's also just you know storage space unless we're going to convert all of the natural gas pipelines and natural gas storage to hydrogen if you're talking about these you know for example smaller industrial facilities you're going to have to find a place to store that as well so it's really important to be able to have this very compact energy storage so again very quick presentation thanks to everyone else for you know mentioning many many of the things that we were going to mention it's fun to be able to just say everybody else is right and move on to the discussion thank you andrew wonderful wonderful we have about 10 minutes or 10 or 15 minutes left so i will do a little bit the kind of fast pace so i think one more good question from uh johnson edwards to omit is regarding the electricity grid i would expand this a little bit more and to ask everyone especially you know three of you the last three speakers all talk about how we decarbonize the heat and uh both andrew and john mentioned that how we can use the low capacity factor but intermittent renewables to decarbonize the heat is is is critical so the question is do we expect that this large industrial power plant industrial plant to be solar depend on the electrical grid for electricity use assumes that the grid is decarbonized or will this industrial plant produce their own low carbon electricity like deploy the the renewables next to the plant or close to the plant so what's your perspective i would go through from omit since you talked about one hour ago and i want to make sure that people don't forget you that we go from omit to edson to john to uh andrew sure thank you yeah i think that's that's a very good question and one of the the i think it will be also one of the defining uh criteria for deployment in a large-scale industrial deployment if you are talking about the base load which which is a very high capacity like a electrical steam cracker or electrical pyrolysis or or maybe a clean so the industry typically they prefer to have their own supply to limit the disruption or any kind of intermittency if we are looking for a smaller scale like less than 10 megawatt and then like where you have some leg room for basically to to with like tolerate some intermittency then probably it will be either in from the grid or could be like from one of the application that john and andrew was talking about or similar kind of technology thank you yeah you know i one thing i want to add on to this question here is also pointing to the fact that the the electric grid is evolving and that's going to be an important aspect to think about you know some of the solution set that andrew and john are working on would work absolutely really well when you have behind the meter generation assets there are certain land use challenges that might come into place in specific locations so then you are looking towards when you don't have you know kind of land use you know certainly i'm sure andrew's run these numbers and so is john if you have behind the meter solar and you're trying to deliver a certain base load mega wattage you know you probably have to 3x the size of roughly of the the thermal load to be able to then have your kind of nameplate capacity of solar generation on the back end to be able to generate a pretty consistent ppa so it's going to be a large acreage for large large facilities or for facilities that are land constrained which i think is going to be a challenge in europe for example where you have a lot of old industrial facilities that are in more urban areas and you might not have land constraint so you are going to have to be working from grid electricity and so probably one area for policy intervention here is going to be around being able to open up access for for you know essentially being able to do direct time of day purchases for smaller facilities which are generally more price takers like john was talking about for natural gas consumption you know there's a lot of industrial facilities like the ones we were talking about below 10 megawatts that you're not having the full sway of a direct engaged relationship with your utility currently you're much more price takers for example imagine your local brewery as a as a as a consumer they don't have a sophisticated power purchase agreement and so these are things that are going to have to evolve to be able to deal with these things but that's one of those things i think is a critical area for interdisciplinary work in this space absolutely i would absolutely record uh echo that you know we we looked at these numbers a moment ago bringing the projects to if you want to build a new wind farm in oklahoma today it's about a 10 year interconnection process the current average interconnection time for new solar generation in california is seven and a half years and california could double the amount of pv in the state carrying industrial heat with none of it connected to the electricity grid our solution and other thermal energy storage solutions can obviously match up with off-grid generation and addison you're dead right so that particular cement plant right there uses about 15 megawatts of electricity it uses 840 megawatts of heat roughly so and you're dead right to make that thing 90 percent of its heat come from renewable electricity it's going to be about a 2.4 gigawatts solar facility it can be anywhere within 20 miles 50 miles of that site and when you use it when you apply that criterion you want to the you know is there a spot a land spot within 20 miles you get to about 40 percent of the industrial heat that can be decarbonized without touching the grid but then we have enormous load centers where absolutely you know we're going to have to touch the grid a few years ago steve chu was going around giving a talk saying this country does electricity the way we did roads in 1939 right we have a lot of challenges today with interstate planning we have enormous challenges even just between the service territories of different regulated utilities in california but you know we have built the country has built hundreds of thousands of miles of natural gas pipelines under a different regulatory frame you know we have when when natural gas demand started growing in california we built a 36 inch pipeline to wyoming and you know people point out why were all the old industries in england located on the coast it was where it was easy to bring the coal we will see a zero carbon industry evolving both to move to where renewables are plentiful and cheap and you know the the grid absolutely is going to be an important part of this there are places where there is this fortuitous matter and you mentioned europe where huge amounts of offshore wind is coming into landing sites that happen to be close to major industrial centers so some of the solutions and the early points on the scoreboard are sooner than a lot of people think but yeah this is absolutely a critical topic and the thing you said it's it's cross cutting there's a tremendous amount of policy work regulatory development um because today we have electricity tariffs that go back to thomas edison and a concept where every megawatt comes from a spinning generator that's expensive and every megawatt hour comes from burning fuel the technology the world has fundamentally changed and some policy development can unlock this yeah i couldn't agree more with everything just said i'll just say from from sort of our investigations in the space uh you know well well over half of industrial sites either have the potential for nearby renewables or already in places in the grid where there's an excess of renewables or were small investments and upgrades in the grid uh you know can make it feasible to get that power from the grid and you know that's not everything and so certainly not to say that there isn't a challenge there for you know industrial sites that are in areas that don't have land and don't have a strong enough grid to support this but as as john said you know there there's there's a lot of low hanging fruit that we can go and address right now without dealing with that challenge all right i think you know i would add if we're serious about decarbonization which i think is a society we are let's ask how does this compare to what the other pathways are are we going to you know many you know there are very very limited locations in the state and uh where we could do co2 sequestration for example there you know you're going to build are you going to build the network of single purpose sequestration pipelines that will be used for some period or will we because electricity for sure is the least cost pathway and it's a question of when are we going to be building these grid upgrades terrific okay then the next follow-up question is really about the storage capability okay if we if we you know if we love renewables we have to love storage then i think both john and and andrew touch on the sector coupling and we we run another webinar several months ago regarding the sector coupling for the natural gas electricity because as both of you mentioned natural gas to heat the gas to heat right now is kind of dominate what the heat is utilized in the industrial sectors but the number i would like to give you is one bcf the building cubic feet is the ideal line park which is being commonly used for many natural gas pipeline the number we got is equivalent to about 100 gigawatt hour battery storage i'm not using thermal storage it's battery storage so how do you compare the storage capability which already naturally on the natural gas pipeline where is the technology we're developing here from both technology and economic perspective well i think yeah i think yeah as we know the we have electrochemicals energy storage and other things for electricity to electricity but the the materials that are in use whether it's rocks in a box or our approach or andrew's approach they are all things that are not someday $50 per kilowatt hour they start out at around three dollars per kilowatt hour for the storage media and they are not made from you know things that are in limited supply and it's expensive to expand the supply chain they are made from stuff that is made at gigascale today and we're adding a new demand to proven things so i think look there it has been and there are also not things that wear out in seven years they're things that last for you know 50 years so the there is of course how fast can these technologies roll out and there is today that this matter of the venture capital to bring these technologies to market and then the valley of death project finance capital because you know the people who buy natural gas buy it as a service guys making potato chips don't drill gas wells they want to buy renewable heat as a service and some of the really critical matters associated with rollout don't have anything to do with supply chains or technology they have to do with understanding in the financial communities of this sector that is one of the great the giant development opportunities of our time but contracting for industrial heat with somebody who makes tomato paste is completely different than contracting for electricity with utility grid so they're part of the answer to your question i think is a is a financial one and you know the kinds of infrastructure finance that built our grid and our gas pipelines is going to come to build this kind of energy storage infrastructure and renewable generation infrastructure over the coming years and again the education the policy development to support it policies does loan guarantee programs and other things to support that are an important part of the cross-cutting thing to drive this transition yeah i think also one thing that you know your question raises which i think is an important one to consider here is the fact that we're not the only users of electricity nor will we be the only users trying to go after time of day pricing to be able to do arbitrage play there's going to be storage built across the grid particularly you see where financing is going right now is that the upstream generators to be able to firm up electricity generation so there will be a question of where do people capture this value and one of the things we are hearing from Andrew and John is you know the solutions for thermal storage are very cheap so the ability to go and actually take a big piece of that the essentially that value of time of day pricing is available for industrial heat which is great but we're not the only ones playing for it there's a lot of other anticipation of increased renewable generation for vehicle charging for electrification of the home and i think it's one of those things that you know even just these buildouts that we talk about about the necessary electricity for industrial is just a small piece of how really far it needs to go for the electrification broadly and recognizing that a lot of this storage is going to have to be playing in concert with other uses and other players in the space yeah i think we have also think about like the the the the the whether it's a midterm or long term like within down the road how many years and then what scale it's available like and what kind of capacity it can deliver and then and how does that compare with other technologies already on the shelf right so there's the balance and so definitely the development pathways that is a very critical in this case yeah and i'll just jump in quickly on what adison said yeah there are going to be lots of other things especially shorter duration things like lithium ion batteries that are also soaking up some of this inexpensive electricity during the day and i think that's why it's really important for things that are cheaper like thermal energy storage to really focus on on higher durations and faster charging speed because that makes something like this to be an even more flexible resource on the grid than something like a lithium-ion battery we can charge you know after the lithium ions already charged and we can discharge after the lithium ion has already discharged and so you know as we add more and more demands to the electric grid more and more sectors from transportation to industrial heat you know it's going to be important to add that flexibility wherever we can and thermal energy storage i think is one of the best ways to do that terrific we have but you know the last maybe last minute or two i want to do a rapid fire will allow each of you to have maybe 30 seconds a quick summary and what do you see the most important innovation you may say a lot but what's the most important innovation or investment from both technology or maybe policy perspective you think to lower the adoption hurdles and how we can rapidly scale the later stage of technology for the industrial decarbonization just pick one of them let's go from reverse order let's start from Andrew then go to John go to Edison and Amit perfect i'm going to pick a policy one which is really making sure that electricity markets are set up to properly price intermittent clean power from from stuff like solar and wind you know that's going to be important not just for thermal energy storage for industrial heat but for so many other usage usage just that can they can take advantage of that new resource on the grid or policy okay John but i'd argue research and education so i look at McMillan's paper from NREL looking at opportunities for solar thermal use in in industry i'd point to Hassan begge's paper looking at direct electrification and other in of industrial heat and other NREL work in this in the area you know caldera and ruggles looking at the role of intermittent elect indirect electrification this is enormous need it's an enormous need for really deep dive on the what andres technology our technology with this whole class of indirect electrification where can they serve industry and educating both working with both industry and the finance communities and government there is an enormous need in that area because what we're talking about almost nobody knows today no one in jp morgan is working on this sector right now and the billions of dollars of private capital to flow to you know to drive this decarbonization that cross cutting look at everything that we've talked about really is urgently needed okay terrific indirect electrification that's could be a nice topic for our next panel which more like long-term research topic that is it yeah i think the most you know we've heard about technological innovations here but i think the what we need to focus on moving forward to really enable this is productization modularization and really delivering a product that a capital projects engineer at a small facility in you know a rural area near wind but has never really thought about anything but their natural gas boiler or their furnace can actually comprehend we're talking about delivering unit ops that a chemical engineer can integrate not a novel new technology it has novel technology can't be the forefront of the sales cycle it has to be a product that's integratable into a process terrific amit well i was going to say like a policy and infrastructure but since it's already mentioned by andrew and john so my next target will be like basically like what can you do think about like developing disruptive technology like to hit that 35 percent of the energy source today that we need as a as a feedstock so what sort of differences in in kind of new novel technology we can develop from a research point of view that can basically fundamentally change the the energy requirement and also the carbon electrosil fit stock that is used today for the industry thank you terrific i would say thank you amit edison and john and andrew for the wonderful presentation and the conversation and thank you again i will hand this back to richard