 Welcome back to this CUBE conversation. CUBE on Cloud startups. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're wrapping up the closing keynote, fireside chat of the AWS showcase, the hottest startups in data and cloud. We've got some great guests here to illuminate what's happened, why it's important, and Michael Scok, who's the founding partner, Michael Scok, founding partner of Underscore VC, Mike Feinstein, principal, business development manager at AWS, Ben Haynes, CIO advisor, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this closing keynote for the AWS showcase. Pleasure to be here. So first of all, guys, you guys have a unique background from startup funding, growing companies, managing these partners at AWS and being a practitioner with Ben here. The first question I have is, what is the real market opportunity? We've heard from McKenzie that there's a trillion dollars of unlocked value in cloud, and that really is going to come from all enterprises, big and small. So the question is, is that, that's what everyone wants to know. What's the secret answer key to the test if you're a business? Cause you don't want to be on the wrong side of cloud history here. There is a playbook, there's some formation of patterns and there's some playbook things happening out there. How do you guys see this? Well, I can try to take a crack at that. First of all, I think there's not only one playbook, you know, only one recipe. If it's a trillion dollar opportunity, that's in the aggregate. There's many different types of opportunities. I think you could have existing companies that are maybe older line companies that need to change the way they're doing things. You can have younger companies that are trying to take advantage of all the data. They've already collected and tried to get more value out of it. There could be some radically different types of opportunities with newer technologies. I think, you know, for each company, just like each of the companies here at the showcase today, they are targeting some, you know, segment of this. Each of those segments is already large. And I think you're going to see a wide range of solutions taking hold here. You know, cloud drives a lot of value. Michael, I want to get your thoughts. So, you know, you've seen the software revolution, you know, over the years, this time it seems to be accelerated. The time to value, if you're a startup, I mean, you couldn't ask for the perfect storm for innovation. If you're coming to MIT, Stanford, any college, you're not even going to school, you can get in cloud, do anything. Starting software now is not as hard as it was, or it's different. What's your perspective? Because, you know, these companies are adding treated value and they're going into an enterprise market that wants scale, they want the reliability. How do you see this evolving? You know, the very first time I saw Bezos get on stage and pitch AWS, he said one thing, which is, we take away all the hard stuff about starting a software business and let you focus on the innovation. And I think that still applies. So you did right, John. And honestly, most founders don't want to spend any time on anything other than the unique piece of innovation that they're going to deliver to their customers. So I think that is fabulous news. I'm going to joke for a second and say, I think we're all under shooting on this number. I mean, the reality is that every part of compute infrastructure that we talk about today was built from an infrastructure that's, you know, decades old, by which I mean 30 to 50 decades in some, 30 to 50 years in some cases. And we look forward at 30, 50 years. We won't be talking about cloud and everything else. We'll be just talking about computing or whatever it is that we want to talk about at the edge or the application of it in a car and an AR VR heads up display that's helping surgeons work across the world. The fact is the only way this is really going to work is on the cloud. So I think it's a multi trillion dollar opportunity. We're just taking a snapshot of it right now. And we're in an interesting point because of course digital transformation has been rapidly accelerated. I mean, there's all these jokes about, you know, we've had five years of transformation in five months. I don't really care what the number is, but what is obvious is that we couldn't have gone off to work and to play and to teach and all these other things without the cloud. And we just took it for granted. But a year ago, that's what we all did. And look, we're thriving. This whole thing is that, you know, a live broadcast that we're doing on the cloud. So yeah, I think it's a very big opportunity. And whatever sector I think to Mike's point that you look at and all the companies that you've seen this morning prove that if you want to innovate today, you start in the cloud, you're a cloud native, as I would say. And as you grow, you will be a cloud assumed. It'll be the basis on which everybody wants to access your products and services. So I'm excited about the future. You can't tell. I totally subscribed to that. Ben, I want to give you a take as a CIO, now advisor to companies. If you're going to look at what Michael's laying out, which is born in the cloud, cloud native, they have an advantage, inherent advantage right out of the gate. They have speed, agility and scale. If you're an existing business, you say, wait a minute, I'm going to be competed against these hot startups. There's some serious fear of missing out and fear of getting screwed, right? I mean, you might go out of business. So this is the real threat. This is not just talked about. This is actually real examples now playing out. So as a practitioner thinking about re-architecting or rejuvenating or pivoting or just being competitive, it's really the pressures there. How do you see this? Yeah, no, it really is. And every enterprise company through every decade, it's a buy versus build conversation. And with the cloud opportunities, you can actually build a lot quicker or you can leverage companies that can even build quicker than you that have a focus on innovation. Because sometimes enterprise companies, it's hard to focus on the really cool stuff and that's going to bring value, but maybe it won't. So if you can partner with someone and some of these companies that you've just showcased, we're doing some amazing things, that can actually help accelerate your own internal innovation a lot quicker than trying to spool up your own team. We heard some companies talk about day two operations, lift and shift, not a layup either. I mean, lift and shift, if not done properly as as well discussed in McKinsey actually puts that in their report. As does other point out, it's not a no-brainer. I mean, it's a no-brainer to go to the cloud, but if you lift and shift without really thinking it through or remediating anything, it could be, it could cost more. And you got the CapEx and OpEx Dynamics. So certainly cloud is happening. And this kind of gives a great segue into our next topic that I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on. And that is the business model, the business structure, business organization. Michael, you brought up some interesting topics around some of the new ideas that could be decentralized or just different consumption capabilities both on both sides of the equation. So the market's there, trillions and trillions of dollars are shifting and the spoils will go to the ones who are smart and agile and fast. But the business model, you could have it, you could be in the right market, but the wrong business model. Who wants to take the first cut at that? Do you want to go? Sure, I'd be happy to. I think that, I mean, again, there's not only going to be one answer, but I think one of the things that really makes sense is that the business models can be much more consumption-based. You're certainly not going to see annual software licenses that you saw in the old world. Things are going to be much more consumption-based. Obviously, software is a service type of models. And you're going to see, I think lots of different innovations. I've also seen a lot of companies that are starting up kind of based on open source as like a first foray. So there's an open source project that really catches hold. And then a company comes up behind it to both enhance it and to also provide support and to make it a real enterprise offering. But they get the early quick adoption of the frontline engineers by starting off with an open source project. And that's a model that I've seen work quite well. And I think it's a very interesting one. So the most important thing is that the business model has to be one that's as flexible as what the solutions are that you're trying to get the customers to adopt. The old way of everything being kind of locked in and rigid isn't going to work in this world because you have to just really be agile. I want to come back to you, Mike, in a second on this, because I know Amazon's got some innovative go-to-market stuff. Michael, you've written about this. I've read many blog posts on your side about SaaS piece. What's your take on business structure? I mean, obviously with remote, this clear people are recognizing virtual companies are available. You mentioned Edge and Compute and these emerging technologies. Does the business structure and model shift? Do you have to be on certain side of this business model innovation? What do you, how do you view, because you're seeing the startups who are usually crazy at first, but then they become correct at the end of the day. What's your take? Well, first of all, I love this debate because it's over. We used to have things that were not successful that would become shelf-wear and that just doesn't work in the cloud. There is no shelf-wear. You're either live and being used or you're dead. So the great news about this is it's very visible. You know, you can measure every person's connection to you for how long and what they're doing. And so the people that are smart don't start with this question of business model. They start with, what am I actually doing for my user that's in value to them? So I'll give you some examples. I'll build on Mike's theme. So, you know, I backed a company called Acquia, but it was based on an open-source project called Drupal, which was initially used for content management. Great, but people started building on it and over time, it became used for everything from the Olympics and hosting theirs to the Grammys to pick your favorite consumer brand that was using it to host all of their different brands and being very particular about giving people experiences. So it's now a digital experience platform, but the reason that it grew successfully as a company is because on top of the open-source project, we could see what people were doing. And so we built what, in effect, was the basis for them to get comfortable. By the way, Amazon is a very fundamental partner in this was became an investor, extremely helpful. And again, took away all the heavy lifting so we could focus on the innovation. And so that's an example of what's going on. And the model there is very simple. People are paying for what they use to put that digital experience out there, to create a great customer journey and for people to have the experience that obviously makes the brand look good or makes the audience feel great if it's the Grammys or whatever it is. So I think that's one example, but I'll give you two others because they are totally different. One of the most recent investments we made is in a company called Kodak, which is a doc spelled backwards. And it's a new kind of doc that enables people to collaborate and to bring data and graphics and workflow and everything else all into the simplicity of what's like opening up a doc. And they don't actually charge anybody who uses their docs. They just charge for people who make their docs. So it's a maker-based pricing, which is very interesting. They've got phenomenal metrics. I mean, they're like over 140% net dollar retention, which is astoundingly good. And they grew over three and a half times last year. So that's another model, but it's consumer and it's, you know, as I said, maker-priced. And then, you know, another company we've been involved with, if I look at it way back was Demand Web. It was the first e-commerce on demand company. We didn't charge for the software at all. We didn't charge for anything. In fact, what we did was take a percentage of the sales that went through the platform. And of course, everybody loved that because, you know, if we were selling more or getting better uplift then everybody started to do very well. So, you know, the world's biggest brands moved online and started using our platform because they didn't want to create or let infrastructure. Another totally different model. I could go on, but the point is, if you start from the customer viewpoint, like what are you doing for the customer? Are you helping them sell more? Or are you helping them build more effective business processes or better experiences? I think you've got fantastic opportunity to build a great model in the cloud. Yeah, it's a great point. I think that's a great highlight. Also a call out for expectations become the experience as the old saying goes. If a customer wants, sees value in something, you don't have to be tied to old ways of, you know, selling or pricing. And this brings up, Ben, I want to tie in you in here and maybe bring Mike back in. As an enterprise, it used to be the old adage of, well, startups are unreliable, blah, blah, blah. You know, they got to get certified. And enterprise usually do things more complicated than say, consumer businesses. But now Amazon has all kinds of go to market. They have the marketplace, they have all kinds of partner networks, this certification, integration is a huge part of this. So back to, you know, Michael's point of, if you're dead, you're dead, everyone knows it. But if you're live, you usually have some momentum is usually well understood, but then you have to integrate. So it has to be consumable for the enterprise. So Ben, how do you see that? Because at the end of the day, there's this desire for the better product and the better use case. How do I procure it? Integration, these used to be really hard problems seems to be getting easier. Or are they? What's your take? Not 100%. I mean, even five years ago, you would have to ask a lot of startups for single sign-up and as table stakes now. So the smart ones are understanding the enterprise principles that we need. And a lot of it is around security. And then they're building that from the start from the start of their products. And so if you get over that security hurdle, their stability so far is a lot more improved because they are a lot more focused and moving really, really quickly, which can help companies move quickly. So definitely seen an improvement and the major entry point is credit card, small user base, small pricing, so you're not dealing with procurement and building your way up into the big purchase order. Right, and that model hasn't changed except the start is a lot quicker and a lot easier to get going. You know, I remember the story of the Amazon Web Search, how they won the CIA contract is someone put a test on a credit card and IBM had the deal in their back pocket. They had the ivory tower sales call. Michael, you know the playbook on enterprise sales. You know, you get the oracles and you guys call at the top, golf tournaments, smoozing, and then you got the middle and then you got the bottoms up. You got the, you know, the data dogs of the world who can just come in with freemium. So there's different approaches. How do you guys see that? Michael and Mike had left you to weigh in on this because this is really where there's no one answer but depending upon the use case, there's certain motions that work better. Can you elaborate on which company should pay attention to what and how customers should understand how they're buying? Yeah, I can go first on that. I think that first of all with every customer, it's going to be a little different situation depends on the scale of the solution. But I find that these very large kind of, you know, make a huge decision and buy some really big thing all at once. That's not happening very much anymore. As you said, John, people are kind of building up. It's either a grassroots adoption that then becomes an enterprise sale or there is some trials or smaller deployments that then build up into enterprise sales. Companies can't make the huge mistake. So if they're going to make a big commitment, it's based on confidence that's come from earlier success. And one of the things that we do at AWS in addition to kind of helping enterprises choose the right technology partners such as many of the companies here today, we also have solutions partners that can help them analyze the market and make the choice and help them implement it. So depending on the level of help that they need, there's lots of different resources that are going to be available to help them make the right choice the first time. Michael, your thoughts on this because ecosystems are part of the entire thing and partnering with Amazon or any cloud player, you need to be secure, you need to have all the certifications. But at the end of the day, if it works, it works and you can consume it whatever way you can. And you can buy downloaded through the marketplace, you can go direct, it's free. What do you see as the best mix of go-to-market from a cloud standpoint, given that there's a variety of different use cases? Well, I'm going to play off Ben and Mike on this one and say, there's a perfect example of what Ben brought up which is single sign-on. For some companies, if you don't have that, you just can't get in the door. And at the other extreme to what Mike is saying, there are reasons why people want to try stuff before they buy it. And so you've got to find some way in between these two things to either partner with the right people that have the whole product solution to work with you. So, if you don't have single sign-on, go work with Octa. And if you don't have all the certification that's needed, well, work with AWS and take it on their certification. They have better security than anybody. So there's all sorts of ways to do this. But the bottom line is, I think you've got to be able to show value before you charge. And I'll give you two examples that are extreme in our portfolio because I think it will show the sort of edge of these two things. You know, the first one is a company called PopCut. It's been featured a lot in the press because when COVID hit, nobody could find whatever it was, the TP or, you know, the latest supplies that they wanted. And so PopCut basically made it possible for people to say, okay, go track all the favorite suppliers, whether it's your Walmart, or your Target, or your Amazons, et cetera. And they would come back and show you the best price and it was, and it cost you nothing. Once you started buying, of course they were getting affiliate fees and they're transferring obviously values. So everybody's doing well. It's a win-win. It doesn't cost a consumer anything. So we love those strategies because, you know, whenever you can make value for people without costing them anything, that is great. The second one is the complete opposite. And again, it's an interesting example, you know, to Ben's point about how you have to work with existing solutions in some cases, or in some cases, of course, move things to the cloud. So it's a company called Cloud Zero. It's also one we've partnered with AWS on. They basically help you save money as you use AWS. And it turns out that's important on the way in because you need to know how much it's going to cost to run what you're already doing off-premises, sorry, off the cloud, into the cloud. And secondly, when you move it there to optimize that spend, so you don't suddenly find yourself in a situation where you can't afford to run the product ourselves. So simply put, you know, this is the future. We have to find ways to specifically make it easy again from the customer standpoint, to get value as quickly as possible and not to push them into anything that feels like, oh my God, that's a big elephant of a risk that I don't obviously want to take on. Well, I'd like to ask the next question to Michael and Ben. This is about risk management from an enterprise perspective. And Michael, the reason why I want to get you in here is you do risk for living, you take risks, you venture out and put bets on horses, if you will. You bet on the startups and the growing companies. So if I'm a customer, and this is a theme that I'm seeing both in the public and private sector where partnerships are super critical, especially in public right now, public-private partnerships, cyber security and data, huge initiative, I saw General Keith Alexander talking about this, about his company and a variety of reliance on private public. No one winning formula anymore. Now as an enterprise, how do they up-level their skill? How do you speak to enterprises we're watching and learning as they're taking the steps to be cloud-native? They're training their people, they're trying to get their IT staff to be superpowers. They've got to do all these, they've got to regenerate and they've got to innovate. So one of the things that they've got to take in is new partnerships. How can an enterprise look at these 10 companies and others as partners? And how should the startups that are growing become partners for the enterprise? Because if they can crack that code, some say that's the magical formula. Can you guys weigh in on that? Yeah, I think of the customer. Yeah, for sure. Look, the unfortunate starting point is that they need to have a serious commitment to wanting to change. And you're seeing a lot of second is it is bubbling up now and they're all knotting their heads. But this needs people, it needs investment and it needs to be super important, not just a priority, right? And some urgency. And with that behind you, you can find the right companies and start partnering to move things forward. A lot of companies don't understand their risk profile and we're still stuck in this, the old days of building network get infiltrated, right? And that's like, oh my God, we're done. And it's a lot, a lot, a lot more complicated now. And there needs to be a lot of education about the value of privacy and trust to our consumers. And once the executive team understands that, then the investments follow. The challenge there is everyone's waiting, hoping that nothing goes wrong. When something goes wrong, oh, we better address that. Right, and so how do we get ahead of that? And you need a very proactive CISO and CIO and CTO and all three, if you have them, really pushing this agenda and explaining what these risks are. Michael, your thoughts. Startups can be a great enabler for companies to change. They have their, you know, they're faster, they're bringing new tech to the scenario. Sine, what's your analysis? Again, I'll use an example to speak to some of the things that Ben's talking about, which is, let's say you decide you want to have all of your data analysis in the cloud. It turns out Amazon's got a phenomenal set of services that you can use to do everything from ingest and then wrangle your data and get it cleaned up and then build one of the apps to gain insight on it and use AI and ML to make that whole thing work. But even Amazon will be the first to tell you that if you have all those services, you need a team that understands the development, the operations and the security, DevSecOps is typically what it's referred to. And most people don't have that. If you're a, sure, let's say you're a Fortune 1000, you'll build that team. You'll have a hundred people doing that. But once you get below that, even in the mid tier, even in the few billion dollar companies, it's actually very hard to have those skills and to keep them up to date. So companies are actually getting built that do all of that for you, that effectively make your services into a product that can be run end to end. And we've invested in one again, we partnered with Amazon called Kazina and they effectively make the data lake as a service. And they're effectively building on top of all the Amazon services and orchestrating and managing all that DevSecOps for you. So you don't need that team. And they do it in days or weeks, not months or years. And so I think the point that Ben made is a really good one, which is you've got to make it a priority and invest in it. And it doesn't just happen. It's a new set of skills that are different. They require obviously everything from the very earliest stage of development in the cloud, all the way through to the sort of managing and running a bit and of course, maintaining it all securely and it's scalable, et cetera. It's interesting, Mike. It's interesting you're bringing up that Amazon's got great security. You mentioned that earlier. Mike, I want to bring you in because you guys, it's graduating, a lot of startups are graduating, it's not like you're in school or anything, but they're really, you're building on top of AWS, which is already, you know, all the SOC report, all the infrastructures there, you guys have a high bar on security. So coming out of the AWS ecosystem is not for the faint of heart. You got to kind of go through. And I could, I've heard from many startups that, you know, that's a grueling process. And this is, should be good news for the enterprise. How are you guys seeing that partnership? What's the pattern recognition that we could share with enterprises adopting startups coming on the cloud? What can they expect? What are some best practices? What are things to look for in adopting startup technologies? Yeah, so as you know, we have a shared security model where we do the security for the physical infrastructure that we're operating. And then we try to share best practices to our partners who really own the security for their applications. Well, one of the benefits we have, particularly with the AWS partner network, is that we will help vet these companies. We will review their security architecture. We'll make recommendations. We have a lot of great building blocks of services they can use to build their applications so that they have a much better chance of really delivering a more secure total application to the enterprise customer. Of course, the enterprise customers still should be checking this and making sure that all these products meet their needs because that is their ultimate responsibility. But by leveraging the ecosystem we have, the infrastructure we have, and the strength of our partners, they can start off with a much more secure application or use case than they would if they were trying to build it from scratch. All right, awesome. I want to get these guys on the way in on this last question before we jump into the wrap up. Products and technologies. What is the most important thing enterprises should be focused on? You could be a list of three or four or five that they should be focused on from an emerging technologies or a technology secret sauce perspective, meaning I'm going to leverage some new things we're going to build and or buy from cloud scale. What are the most important product technology issues they need to be paying attention to? I think I'll run with that first. There's a major, major opportunity with data. We've gone through this whole cycle of creating data, like they've turned in the data swaps and big data was going to solve everything. Enterprises are sitting on an amazing amount of information and anything that can be done to actually get insights out of that. And I don't mean dashboards, BI tools, they're like the dime a dozen. How can we leverage AI and ML to really start getting some insights a lot quicker and a lot more value to the company from the data they owns? Anything around that to me is a major opportunity. Yeah, I'm going to go just a little bit deeper on that because I would agree with all those points that Ben made. I think one of the real key points is to make sure that they're really leveraging the data they have in kind of in place pulling in data from all their disparate apps, not trying to generate some new set of data but really trying to leverage what they have so they can get live information from the disparate apps whether it's Salesforce or other systems they might have. I also think it's important to give users the tools to do a lot of their own analytics. So I think definitely kind of dashboards are a dime a dozen as Ben said, but the more you can do to make it really easy for users to do their own thing so they're not relying on some central department to create some kind of report for them but they can innovate on their own and do their own analytics of the data. I think it's really critical to help companies move faster. Michael. I'll just build on that with an example because I think Ben and Mike gave two very good things, data and making itself service to the users, et cetera. So an example is one of our companies called SalsaFy which is B2B commerce. So they're enabling brands to get their products out into the various different channels today that people buy them on, which by the way, an incredible number of channels have been created whether it's Instagram at one extreme or of course your traditional commerce sites at another. And it's actually impossible to get all of the different capabilities of your product fully explained in the right format in each of those channels humanly. You actually have to use a computer. So that's the first thing I was thinking very important is what could you not do before that you can now do in the cloud and do in a distributed fashion. So that's a good example. The second thing is, and Mike said it very well, if you can give people the data that Ben was referring to in a way that the line of business user, in this case the brand manager, or for example, the merchandiser can actually use, they'll quickly tell you, oh, these three channels are really not worth us spending a lot of money on, we don't need to waste promotion on them. But look at this one, this one's really taking up, this TikTok thing is actually worth paying attention to. Why don't we enable people to buy products there and then focus in on it. And SalsaPlay, by the way, is giving stats for every different customer they've got, but they've got huge brands, the sort of Nestle, the L'Orealz, et cetera, where they're measuring in terms of hundreds of percent of sales increase because of using the data at the Ben's point and making it self-service to Mike's point. Awesome, thought exercise for this, this little toss up question for anyone who wants to grab it. If you had unlimited budget for R&D and you wanted to play the long game and you want to take some territory down in the future, what technology and what area would you start carving out and protecting and owning or thinking about or digging into? There's a variety of great stuff out there and being prepared for potentially any wildcards. What would it be? Well, I don't mind jumping in, that's a tough question. Whatever I did, I would start with machine learning. I think we're still just starting to see the benefits of what this can do across all different applications. If you look at what AWS has been doing recently, many of our new service offerings are integrating machine learning in order to optimize automatically, to find the right solution automatically, to find errors in code automatically. And I think you're going to see more and more machine learning built into all types of line of business applications, sales, marketing, finance, customer service. You already see some of it, but I think it's going to happen more and more. So if I was going to bet on one core thing, it would be that. I'll jump on that just because I... Here at VC, do you think about this? It's an easy one for you. Well, yes and no, I've been a VC now for too long. I was an entrepreneur for 21 years. I could have answered that question pretty well, but in the last 19 of becoming a VC, I've become ruined by just capital being put behind things. But in all seriousness, I think Mike is right. I think every single application is going to get not just reinvented completely reimagined by ML, because there's so much of what we do that is indeed managing the data to try to understand how to improve the business process. And when you can do that in an automated fashion and with a continuous closed loop that improves it, it takes away all the drudgery from things like payments or the other extreme, you know, manufacturing. And in between anything that goes from order to cash faster is going to be good for business and that's going to require ML. So it's an exciting time ahead. That's where we're putting our money. Ben, you're going to go off the board here. You're going to stay with machine learning and dating, go wildcard here, blockchain, AR, VR, holograms. No, I'd kind of have to say ML and AI applying to privacy and trust as we... Privacy and trust is going to be a currency that a lot of companies need to deal with for a long time coming and anything you can do to speed that up and honestly remove the human element. And like Mike was saying, there's a lot of... Before there's a lot of services on AWS that are very quick. There's a lot of security built in but it's that one S3 bucket that someone left open on the internet that causes the breach. So how are we automating that? Like how do we take the humans out of this process so we don't make human errors to really get some security happening? I think trust is an interesting one. Trust is kind of data as well. I mean, communities are misinformation. We saw that with elections, huge. Again, that's back to data. We're back to data again. If I may, I'd like to add to that though. It's a good example of something that none of us can predict which is what will be a fundamentally new way of doing this that we haven't really thought of. And the blockchain has effectively created a means for people to do distributed computing and also sharing of data, et cetera without the human being in the middle and getting rid of many of the intermediaries that we thought were necessary. So I don't know whether it's the next blockchain or whether it's blockchain itself but I have a feeling that this whole issue of trust will become very different when we have new infrastructure. I think I agree with everyone here. The data is key. I'll come back down to data whether you're talking sovereignty, misinformation, trust, all the data is there. Okay, final, final question before we wrap up. This has been amazing on a more serious note for the enterprise folks out there and people in general in the round the world. If you guys could give a color commentary answer to what the post COVID world will look like with respect to technology adoption, societal impact and or technology for potentially good and or for business. Now that we're coming closer to vaccines and real life again, what is the post COVID world going to look like? What do we learn from it and how does that translate into every day in real life benefits? Well, I think one of the things that we've seen is that people have realized you can do a lot of work without being in the office. You could be anywhere as long as you can access the data and make the insights from it that you need to. And so I think there's going to be an expectation on the part of users that they'll be able to do that all the time. They'll be able to do analytics on their phone. They'll be able to do it from wherever they are. They'll be able to do it quickly and they'll be able to get access to the information that they need. And that's going to force companies to continue to be responsive to the expectations and the needs of their users so that they can keep people productive and have happy employees. Otherwise they're going to go work somewhere else. Michael, any thoughts post COVID? What do we learn? What happens? What happens next? You said one key thing, Mike, expectations. And I think we're going to live in a very difficult world because expectations are completely unclear. And you might think it's based on age or you might think it's based on industry or geography, et cetera. The reality is people have such wildly different expectations and we've tried to do surveys and to try to understand whether there are some patents here. I think it's going to be one word, hybrid. And how we deal with hybrid is going to be a major leadership challenge because it's impossible to predict what people will do and how they will behave and how they'll want to, for example, go to school or to go to work or play, et cetera. And so I think the third word that I would use is flexibility. We just have to be agile and flexible until we figure out how this is going to settle out to get the best of both worlds. Because there's so much that we've learned that has been, to your point, really beneficial, the more productivity taking out the community. But there's also a lot of things that people really want to get back to such as social interaction, connecting with their friends and building their lives. Ben, final word. So I'll just drill in on that a little bit deeper. The war on talent, if we talk about tech, and we talk a lot about data, AI, ML, it's going to be a big differentiator for the companies that are willing to maintain or work from home and your top-level resources are going to be dictating where they're working from. And they've seen it work now. And if you're not flexible with how you're running your organization, you will start to lose talent. And companies are going to have to get their head around that as we move forward. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. That's a great wrap up to this Cube on Cloud, the AWS startup showcase. Thank you very much. On behalf of Dave Vellante and myself, the entire Cube team and Amazon web services, thank you very much for closing out the keynote. Thanks for your time. Thank you, John, and thanks Amazon for a great day. Yeah, thank you, John. Okay, that's a wrap for today. Amazing event, great keynote, great commentary, 10 amazing companies out there growing, great traction, Cloud startup, Cloud scale, Cloud value for the enterprise. I'm John Furrier. On behalf of the Cube and Dave Vellante, thanks for watching.