 Calling the finance meeting order on July 16, 2020. It is now 2.34 PM and pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. General law section 30 section 18. This meeting of the finance committee is being conducted by a remote participation in order to satisfy open meeting law. I do need to ask each member of the committee to stay present when I call her name, which is a means of acknowledging that they can hear me and to show that we can hear them. So, Kathy Shane. Yes, I can hear you. Dorothy Pam. Yes. I can hear you. Pat Angeles. I can hear you. Bob Hegner. I'm here. Mary Lou Tauman. I'm here too. And I believe that Sharon Pugnalli has not yet joined us. I'm here. I'm here. Oh, you are. That's why I said it because I actually am not looking at a participant list. So all members of the committee are present and I don't think that we need to convene a council meeting separately because there's no form of council of self. Um, the purpose of today's meeting is in the agenda who we will review and finalize our report, make our recommendations on the matters that are in the report and before the committee regarding the budget and then allow for any public comment. Any public comment that might be present. I will therefore stop sharing so that we can all be present in the meeting and indicate and also want to indicate that there's a draft that was sent to everyone of where we were on the draft report about an hour ago. And it has been posted and is available on the town council website under the committee page in the packet for the finance committee meeting. So, having gone through that, I think that what we are getting very close to is needing is to make get a motion. That would be coming forward to approve the order for the actual. Budget itself and then to see if there are any proposed amendments to the order. The sequence that we would naturally be going through. So maybe we should get a motion out on the table and Sonya it's I don't have it in front of me it's 21 FY 2106 is it Sonya you're not you're muted. I can't hear you because you're muted. Andy, we need to have a sign that you just hold up that Kathy. Sonya is not giving yourself unmuted to join Sonya you are muted. Can you unmute. There she goes. You don't want me unmuted. Just don't. Is it is it oh six. It's all for B. Oh for B. Okay. So what would be as an initial motion would be somebody would need to make a motion that the committee is recommending order FY 2104 B as drafted. And in the committee packet. And then if it is seconded, then we will discuss whether there are any amendments. Does anybody want to make that motion. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Kathy has her hand up. I just had a question. I understand that's the motion. Would there be a way to first make a motion. That we discussed yesterday or does it have to come after you make a motion. To do the whole budget, then an amendment to the whole, that motion. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've been on the council for three years of being on the council. I'll know parliamentary procedure, but I'm still trying to understand when you make a motion. If it's a motion that we discussed for a couple of hours yesterday. So. I think that the discussion, more of the discussion. Just based upon yesterday's meeting. It's probably going to be on the motion to amend. If there's a motion to approve or adopt. Proposed order at 521. Dash oh four B. And then I was going to ask the town manager. If he had any recommended. Language to use that would achieve the goal that was discussed in yesterday's meeting. And at that point. If you were anyone else on the committee. Who is a council member of the committee. Could make a motion to amend. The order or to take whatever other action. Subsequently. The time manager might suggest, but it would seem that getting the order out there might be helpful. I think you still want your hand up. No, I can take it down. So. Okay. Andy, remember, I can't put my hand up. Yeah. Do you want to be recognized place? Sure. Started. I make a motion. We recommend. To the town council. The adoption of the manager's budget is reflected in. Give me the numbers again, Sonia. 2104 B. 20, 041. 21. 21. Oh, 4B. Oh, 4B. Is there a second. Somebody. Somebody who's on the. Committee. As a. Council member would have to second. Okay. So there is a second. Now I'm going to ask. If I may. The town manager. Yeah, because what, what was presented and discussed substantially at yesterday's meeting. I don't have to go into great detail about this because I'm going to leave that to the person who's doing it was. A proposal that we come up with a mechanism. That would freeze hiring of two positions for reasons. That the maker of that motion. If there are proposal can state. I don't know. But I don't, I think that Mr. Bachman was going to consider. Mechanisms that would achieve the result. And that he was going to put that forward. And then it is obviously the discretion of a counselor. As to whether they wanted to. Propose an action in accordance. Mr. Thank you, Andy. So what I wanted. I wanted to make sure that I think I understand what the council is saying is that the council is saying. The chief has said there are two vacancies upcoming in the next six months. That those two positions not be filled. While we explore alternative methods of delivering certain services to the public that are now being served offered by through the police department. And that we hold those two filling those two positions in the center. And then we, we also have to find a way to get the service in abeyance until we do a serious study of how we want to provide those services in a potentially different way. And I'm committed to doing that. And. And the chief is agreeable to that as well. So. How you want to form that if you want that to be part of a motion, part of the statement that the finance committee. Says. You know, I don't know how you want to, how you want to proceed if you want to take an explicit motion on that or not. I mean, I think that by stating it here, you incorporate it into your report. And you hold me accountable on that, you know, through goals or whatever however process you want to do. And that's the process that I think would be the most logical to move forward on. I think, if I'm under, if I'm hearing the council right what they're saying, what you're saying is we are, we are serious about this. This is a source of revenue. If we, if we delete this amount from the budget, it presents a problem according to Sonya that there is then no money to work with. If we put this money there, then there is money to work with for an alternative method of delivering the services. And I can tell you that in terms of looking at this, I think I said this yesterday, the, the leadership of the police department, the public health director are all interested in looking at these different models out there. And I think I mentioned Albert Curkey Denver. There's again, there's Asheville we talked about. So there, I think there are models out there, but, and I think it's wise to investigate them and not just to say we're going to do something. But be clear that this is a mandate from the, from the council. Okay, I have two counselors who would like to speak and may have questions. So I'm going to take them in order that they raise their hands Kathy. Yeah, I'm unmuted. I would like to make it as a motion because if we have the motion on the floor is to adopt the town manager's budget as presented it would have all positions be filled. So I think we need to do it as a formal motion on, and I kind of wrote down as you quickly said what you said Paul, you know, I don't usually think of paragraph long motions but I, it's making a motion that to vacant positions in the police department not be filled, filled, hold those two positions over at least the next six months while deliberation on different models and composition of policing can be considered. You know, so I was just going to state of why we're holding them a little bit long. So I made it can be considered. So I have, so that's, it's two parts one I would like to do it as a formal motion and get a vote on it so we get a sense of the committee. Secondly, I'm fine with that wording. I mean to me, you know, I, it was great that Sonya explained budget impacts and consequences yesterday. To me if we don't fill them for up to six months. The budget the budget has been budgeted as if they would be filled, you know, knowing that they weren't going to be filled on day one of the vacancy so there's some lag between it opens up. So does that mean. So this is purely a question. Does that mean that if you had put in the budget. If you had put in the TES at 48 for a full year. There's actually quite a bit of money, you know, so if half a year went by before you fill the position, you still have a full year worth of salary in the budget and benefits, it would that would be a correct interpretation yes. Yes, but be aware that sometimes when positions are unfilled they have to fill those positions with overtime. So if there's a vacant if there's a shift that's not filled, they bring somebody back a time and a half to fill that shift. I was thinking about that yesterday that that it's not that whatever amount of money that might be would be potentially being drawn down by overtime in the this six this month period. Yeah, so that so that was my first question about this and the second I changed it over at least the next six months because I'm not sure how long this discussion will go on. Is that okay to leave it, you know, so that to me says, at least six months, you know, so it's from now until January, whatever the six month period is, is that wording okay. So I think you want to convey some urgency about doing this right. So you don't want to say take as long as you want come back in June of next year I mean I think the whole point on this is to say let's get on this and I think that's a real. You want to you want to convey some urgency on that so how you do that. Okay, so I would be happy to get a sense. I just changed it to say suppose it takes seven months but I would be also be happy to put six months to say we've got a time limit on it the way you stated it with, you know, in six months, we will be hearing again what what the ideas that would be fine with me if we think we can have that kind of telescope process with. So I'm going to stop talking because Pat had her hand up just I want to hear her thoughts on this too. In essence I don't really have anything else to add. I think I would like to see the amendment. I don't want to pass the budget without it. I would very much like it to be there. And I think a deadline of January 31 2021 would give us some real impetus so I don't really have anything to add to what Kathy said. I have a suggestion which should goes backwards on what I said originally. But if the goal is to have a motion about not filling positions, but not, but it is not an actually a motion to reduce the budget. So I think it would be nice to see that you would like to have that motion voted on before we vote on the budget motion itself. As I said I, you know, in terms of, I'm fine either way, I just would like to make sure this paragraph gets in and then in the report, we explain the reasoning behind it so there it's got two parts you see it right at the end of the report. And I think we've drafted Andy, you know, so that we're voting on the whole budget with this amendment to it. The budget I think is the problem because it's not affecting the budget what I was thinking is is that what we probably want to consider and but I'm going to ask or if he wants to comment on this is that I think what we would want to consider is a separate motion that is recommended by this committee. And I think that when it comes to the council meeting, it made, you know, I think the order has to be considered there to that. But the motion would ultimately is that we are recommending that the council urge or direct I came I'm not going to pick the verb. The town manager to not fill to vacant positions for. And then you have to finish it out. I'm not going to word your motion. I want you to work. And I just said, you know, here's the way I think. I'm not saying it would go this way, but by freezing to positions. We're not endorsing 48 in the police department right now and that's what's proposed in the budget books so that's why I think it is amendment to it. We think we put the people in the police department, but suppose we put them in the XYZ department, I don't, you know, so I, you know, so it's, it is an amendment to the budget as proposed Andy I think rather than just a you know, so, you know, this clearly, you know, since I started yesterday and so you explain why the just cutting the police department by two FTEs wasn't a good way to go and it made sense when that explanation came in so I'm not sure why I understand this isn't an amendment to but nowhere in the budget book does it say anything about the police not filling two of the 48 positions. So that's I just don't understand why it wouldn't be an amendment to the budget. Sorry. I'm just, I'm a little confused as to why we're putting it into emotion or having it be order or anything because the minutes are going to reflect that the town manager has agreed to do that. The reports reflecting that I mean that is making a statement. If you put it into motion it doesn't really set it in stone or anything you can still go back and ask for another motion to reverse that motion later so I guess I'm just not understanding the whole practice of this and setting the precedence of doing this. It makes no sense to me. I'm sorry I'm a common sense person. I, I would like to see us. If we froze those two positions we've functionally reduced the budget by two full time positions for a period of six months. So, so what I would like to see is a motion to reduce the budget as presented by the town manager by that amount. Whether or not, and then it would be up to him, if he wanted to move it into some other fund that could be held for either staffing EMS or, or police department or, or whatever I don't know. But for me. I guess in my common sense way Sonia, I'd like to see and it's not about trusting Paul or trusting the council. It's just like it would be there in. It would be a clear statement and it would be a statement while only a token. It would be supporting the kind of intentionality of the people who have come forward to defund 52% which I'm sorry I think is absolutely crazy I would never do that. But there's a way in which I think this needs to be a symbolic act. And I'm comfortable with that. Dorothy I just see your hand up and I'm not looking to be recognized to the question that I would ask Paul and Sonia to think about and come back to either now or in a couple of minutes is, is there a way to not reduce the budget. But for the council to direct money to go into a specific budgeted reserve, saying under general government so it's not under community services that keeps the money so that the money is available. I think we always have to remember that if we reduce the budget. As a whole, then we're reducing taxation, and we can't get the money back without going to reserves. But if we put it if we can put it into a reserve. And direct the positions not be filled. Then at least the money is available without having to go into further into reserves. My understanding is we cannot do that and we can. We can say we don't want the money there and then Paul can choose to either to do what you're saying but we can't as the council. Lynn has her hand up. I do too. And Dorothy has her hand up. So take Dorothy first, but then I have a suggestion. Suggested that I asked Dorothy first of Dorothy. Okay, I just would like to bring this back to what I thought Paul was saying. He wasn't using the word freeze. He said held an abeyance. I often found we had more money in a department because there was an unfilled position so unfilled positions in the budget is not something new. So I don't think I want to reduce the budget, and I were not really talking about reducing services we're talking about some redirecting, perhaps, of services. I think I have it just and I'm really very pleased with your statement Paul. I think it's very good, but I think it's important that the finance committee, make it clear that it supports this position, and that the town council does to, and that the town manager has independently. Also, come forward to say he sees this as a reasonable way to go. So, I am not an expert in Roberts rules, but I would support Kathy making a motion. That we using Paul's words hold these positions I guess in abeyance. And, and I believe the rest of his sentence was very good to that we would figure out how, how we would redirect this in terms of delivering services after the process which has been started and or which is underway. I mean it started but it's going to be started very soon. So, have I restated that correctly Paul or do you need to correct me in some ways. I'm eager to hear what Lynn has to say to but I think I think we're all, it's just matter how we get there. I think we're all on the same page as a matter of what's the best way to get there and I think what what Sonya would like is a clean appropriation statement or something that actually gets it as a transactional document that we give to the Department of Revenue and stuff and if it's got these other things on it. You know you never know who's, you know the bond council or whoever has to look at these things you just, you just like have a clean appropriation statement. So sometimes they have signing statements that where you have a motion standalone motion says, we move that our approval of this is based on this understanding. We have an explicit understanding with the town manager that the two that two anticipated upcoming vacancies will be held in will not be filled. And funds will not be spent until the town has fully explored and you know come up with an alternative way of providing these services something like that. Oh, I was muted sounds very good to me. Thank you. So, yeah, Lynn go ahead. The standing is that, according to the Charter. We have to be specific about program. And so, I'm not opposed to this amendment. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it. That's really where I'm coming from. Okay. And I'm trying to get as clean a path to the state side, but as clean a message to the of our intent. Okay. So, the, and at the same time, maybe what we should do is pass and is remove the initial motion off the table, table it, and go to a motion about the freeze, and then go back to this and say subject to that motion or I'm Paul, I've been trying to figure this out since I If I may Andy, I think there are two actions. I think you need one to make the statement that's clear explicit to everyone. And it stands there and it actually so it sounds like what the count with the finance committee say is we want to vote on something we want to be that we don't want to just have a knot of the head and on a zoom meeting we want actual something in writing that we can point to. And then we also need we understand we have to make the appropriation vote as well. So I think that's, that's one way to just say there's two actions happening, and that one is dependent on the other. Right. Andy, may I speak. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, I feel comfortable with a signing motion as long as it's clear and explicit I think Paul saying the approval of this budget is based on the understanding, blah, blah, blah. I would be all right with that. Kathy. I'm with Pat and and now I just need is this called an amendment is this called condition. You know, it's trying to find the words of what this thing is right it's you had a nice it's it's like a cortisol when you think of a will it's got this, by the way, you've got to behave the following way and I don't think budgets have cortisol on them but so just it's not you're saying it's not an amendment to the budget it's a condition, it's approval conditional on the following and then we had that paragraph. So, so I guess the motion would be to make it conditional that we have agreed on the following we in the town manager, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the words you just said, I'm just whatever we need to do that creates those words and has people understand what they are. Kathy, did you have more to say or was I just say I second that motion. Now we don't have a quick quite because I wouldn't give a sure that we get. We first of all we have to withdraw the other motion which we can get to in a minute, but I'm trying to do is see if we can come up with how it is. We're exactly going to word it and then I see your hand up Sonia. I think what I'm going to do is ask to withdraw the original motion and take up this motion first and then come back to the original motion get it re, remade at that point. Sonia. This is a separate order from this finance order because putting motions like this without actual dollar amounts and you really don't want to put dollar amounts in it without actual dollar amounts you're going to, you're going to muck up the works for getting tax rate sets and stuff like that so I don't want to mess with the financial order. We're not taking them out of the budget we're saying they will not be filled the freezing two positions, but it doesn't belong in the financial orders. No, we're not making it a part of the order. We're trying to come up with a separate motion that we're offering in addition. Is there a significant difference between the word holding an abeyance and freezing. Yes. Okay. So, Paul suggested an abeyance and is there a real specific reason behind that. I'm sorry maybe Paul you have a reason for saying advance. I didn't suggest Andy that I put a Word document up on the screen, and we try to see these motions. Okay. Okay. So Kathy. I can read you a beginning to it and then I'm going to just add what I thought were Paul's words. So you see this. Yes. So I would be I make a motion that approval of the budget is conditional on agreement. So I don't want to interact. I think we talked about whether it's a recommendation. And also I don't think when we think about that what the council does. I don't think the council can vote a conditional budget. Yeah. We just have to think about the wording. I think the finance we can recommend. That what you were just talking about, but I don't think they should say that the council only approved the budget based on this conditional. I don't know. We just have to think about how it's worth it because I don't believe it'll be legitimate if the budget vote by the council is contingent upon. Something later on. Yeah, no, I think you have a good point, Sean, because what I think we're trying to do in a way craft isn't more important than the motion of this committee right now is the motion that we're recommending that the council adopt. Yeah, okay. So I just sent you some words, Lynn, if you want to look at your email, it might help with this. Thank you. You might be able to just be pasted into this actually. I can. To recommend that the town council. Yeah, so I had the original one you had that to bacon positions, but it's better if we copy and paste your words in. I write fast, but not always accurate. Why sharing the document. You are sharing it. Okay, let me just. Okay. So, here's what Paul just sent in. The approval of the budget is made with the explicit understanding with the town manager. The two upcoming anticipated vacant positions in the police department's budget will be held in advance, not allocated or spent. The town manager has fully explored an alternative manner of providing services. And presents presented his findings to the council. Okay, so what we talked about was on until on January 31. I didn't add that. So allocated to spend until January 31 2021. I think it should be before January, not until. Right. Thank you, Pat. There's a phrase from Andy's report. Talking about enhancing efficiency and effectiveness. No, I think this is much more. I mean, we have this alternative manner providing services. So this is different models, it's composition. So this, this wording says all of that. The other thing I wondered about that I mentioned to you wanted to make sure that clear that there we that there was no one in the pipeline, there was no one in police academy, expecting one of those positions that we're not cutting anybody who is in the department. In the wording in the report Dorothy, we can say that because we have good discussion in the motion, but it should be yes, because I mean, we are not cutting the services and we're talking about reconsidering alternatives are providing the services and we're not cutting. I think some services will be cut while those potentially if you listen to the chief yesterday, there is a potential for some reduction in service. While this is going on if those two positions aren't filled for a month or six months or a year or ever. It does affect the number of people you know, pretend. But I also I'm having Paul, I have so much respect for you and it probably has to legally be that way. But there's something in here for me about is made with the explicit understanding with the town manager. Until the town manager has fully explored. And I guess that's the wording it might need to be but somehow or other it feels to me like it needs to be the town manager the town and the town council and community members or something. But maybe not. I mean, I, you know, I'm not going to hold to that I'm just I mean you can make it broader and just say the town until the town has fully explored. That would feel better. I, yeah. That, that saves having to ask at every actor that we might. interject. I feel like if you say, this is Sharon, if you say the town, then that's no one it's everybody and it's also no one. And I think what people are looking for is to be taken seriously and have accountability. I don't have my two cents on changing that from the, maybe the town manager is not the right word for a person, but the town seems to be too big and not. So would you go back Sharon to the town manager, the town council, red and community members or I, I, I haven't. I don't want to think about that, but to me, I'm just my inclinations to just have something to be in there. Yeah. I think that I actually think that looks a lot better I agree sharing that the, this isn't someone's going to go off and study it and come back with without a discussion. One other thing. I was just going to say the last sentence. I'm not saying there, it doesn't, I'm not thinking there won't be something that's brought forward to the town council but this sort of assumes that no matter what happens something will be brought forward for approval to the town council. I don't know, maybe that's the right language it just seems to me that we would explore it and then there will be a presentation to the town council of something. But we don't know what we're going to find or what's going to be recommended so to assume that we're going to present something for approval at this point seemed to potentially set us up for something that couldn't happen. I don't know. Yeah, and we might yeah, it might not be ready for approval. You can say with the report back to the town council by January 31 2021. So the if it didn't say and an alternative explored alternative manners or alternative options, then it's, you know, it's the AN says we have one best way. So taking the word and out of before alternative land. We're talking about what kinds of things could be done. Yeah, yeah. And now we're focused on this. Yeah, and presenting to the town council and reporting them to the town council or something along those lines by date, sir. Right, which is what we do often. I like the idea of putting the date at the end because it's a little vague right now. I mean, you could we could have this done by November 10th, you know, That would be lovely. I'm just saying we're, you know, I know. Yes, we see the wording was and submit a report by January 31. No later than it could be no later than no later than yeah. And maybe maybe sooner that would be good. Yeah. The word doesn't like the length of that sentence. No, it is slightly run on. No, actually, sometimes you just need to get it out and clean it up. I'm going to say, nor it's going to allow me to do it once. There you go. A little extra space here. Okay. Mr. Town Council, you're that other budget. We need that the approval. I'm just that the need that right in front of the budget approval of the budget after time. Council. Right. To recommend to the town council that the approval of the budget is made with the explicit understanding with the town manager. That two upcoming it, that two upcoming anticipated vacant positions in the police department's budget will be held in abeyance, not allocated or spent to the town manager town council and residents have fully explored alternative options, providing services. And those are presented to town council no later than July 31, 2021. Okay, so that would make that a separate sentence. The last part could be a separate sentence, but I think it probably should be a separate sentence because originally when we talked about January 31 2021, it was, that's how long the funds will be held in abeyance for. Right. And now we're saying this is when the report will be by so. I would suggest that. I'm sorry. Go share. Paul just let me just throw this in really quickly. Is it, is it within the purview of this motion to also, you know, go one step further and say this, whatever process happens, whatever we decide will be implemented in the next budget cycle. For me, I feel like that's what that would be a key thing. If I was on, if I was on the other side of this issue of wanting this done right now. It would in some way. I think encourage me to know that it would be in the next next budget cycle, not that we're going to talk about it, not that everybody's going to get together because, you know, that's done all the time but that, hey, you're really taking this seriously and we're going to get this done by the next budget cycle, whatever it is. I don't know whether that's the purview here of this motion. I think the, I think the intent of holding the two positions vacant is to have funds to be able to implement something this FY 21 year. Not FY 22. Right. Okay. Okay, well maybe maybe that should be. That is that explicit in this, I mean, are people going to understand that. The only problem is that if you can't come to a final conclusion. That makes that almost says, we have a, we already know what the plan is. And I think we need to leave this open because for example, one of the options may be that we come up with a way to contract for 24 7365 backup counseling services. And that's not a position. It's contract. Mary Lou, you've had your hand up. Mary Lou. You know, Mary Lou's. Check. Having problems because it's there. There's a little sign came up. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. Yes. To me that regardless of the plan we come up with, let's say a social worker and a nurse, that the money is coming out of the police department. Regardless, which means they will be down to more people. That is concerning because as Sharon was saying, if it were looked at in terms of the FY 22 budget, then it could be placed appropriately where it would belong. And I had, you know, I've been thinking about this. Let's say you wanted a social worker. Well, you might share that with the senior center, because this person isn't going to be on the road all the time with the police. It's not about a nurse that could be part of the public health. So we may want to, you know, put more money into those areas so that they can share as a multi department approach to, to these issues. But this really says regardless of what we come up with, it's you're down to police officers. And that to me is troubling. Yes. Interesting. By the time we get to January 31. We don't know whether or not we really need to take this money here, or we might have surplus elsewhere. At this point, Paul could come back and say, here is what I recommend. Here is where the money is I have this much surplus, because we've heightened our belts or we've gotten X. And at the same time, he could say, therefore I would also like to go ahead and put these two places. That's an option. That's good because we have been told that some services would be reduced if they don't get these two officers. And that should be of concern. Yeah. Kathy. I think we will have today is whatever in July. It's getting August. We're going to have August through December experience. You might find, I'm not saying you will find, but you might find adding one back or they've rearranged services in such a way, or there are all sorts of possibilities. This leaves, this wording leaves open what we would then do. And I do not think that FY 22 will suddenly have more money available to us to add staff total people working for the town. Maybe, maybe it will. That would be lovely. So I think this gives us a time period to say, what happens to the way the police department operates. Meanwhile, we're saying how what are other ways of doing it so I'm, I'm extremely comfortable with this because I'm, I'm hearing people and not the same people we were that we've heard do testimony that we spend a lot on police and some of the work might be the same work might be able to be done by other people for potentially less money or equivalent. So I, I think this leaves all options open. So can I ask a question of Andy. For the sake of discussion. I'm more than willing to withdraw my original motion for the moment, but are we going to come back and then make just a straight motion about the budget. Well, I think that in the end we have to come back and approve the budget. If everybody's in agreement, then Kathy can tell us whether she's comfortable with passing the motion that's on the floor, or would like to have the motion from the floor was drawn until this motion is passed. I'll leave that to her decision at the time. I'm going to get the wording of emotion fully understood is because we're doing good work on it and that's where we should keep going. And I guess I have one thing comment to it said earlier that there could be a possibility that some funds would have to be spent on overtime. Please overtime. This would not allow the expenditure of any additional funds and overtime. Point. Yeah. I ask a question. I don't think this says that sorry Sonya go ahead but this just says that the two positions will be held up. It doesn't say that anything about over there. Yeah. I'm going to ask a dumb question. Are we saying we can't go ahead and study this and figure out what we want to do without holding the police department's budget ransom for it. I mean, I don't get this. It feels like we're holding them. We're harming their budget to do this and this is a great thing to do but why does it have to be on the police department's backs. I just don't get it. I believe that the cafe or somebody else to respond to. I think there's been a question raised and then we're seeing thoughtful people look at. Do we have more police than we actually need because police. I think it's not that the services aren't needed but police themselves may not be the best people to be delivering those services to us. And I understand you want to find another way to deliver those services, but are you saying the police budget is over, over budgeted and. I think it's these vacancies provide an opportunity to hold some money and the, if we were a different composition they might well be hired into the police department and they parking attendants they've got people that aren't formally through the academy. So I don't know what we might call them communities are part of the transportation fund so they don't even come out of the police budget so. I don't think that they sit on that little tree of. Right, but, but you could, I don't think there anything, maybe, unless I don't understand this, can a police budget only hire someone who comes out of the police academy. I can answer that. And I add my two cents here. I did have my hand officially raised. Okay, I'm going to get back to you but just go ahead. I just want to say that what we never asked the police department for was when we heard their extensive presentation, how many hours are spent on a policeman. They never go out once they go out in twos and sometimes threes to answer some of these mental health or wellness checks. How many hours are spent on that I'm not talking about cutting services to the police I'm talking about rearranging some things, some of the services that the police are doing would be done by. The health personnel, and then they would then have freed up hours to do the things that we want them to do so I do not see how it is necessarily that we would have a cut in services. And I think that's a great thing to study but to me you're holding the police department's budget. You're holding them hostage in order to do that. Well, how are we going to do it and when I mean this is this is the time in which we're supposed to be rethinking and looking at things sometimes we don't choose the time. Happily doing our budget. And then, you know, it became the time to really look at police budgets and policing. And we have a great police department but how could we better serve the police department to me. I'm going back to the. I'm talking as a resident right now. It just feels like you are holding them hostage for this. It doesn't feel right. Apparently Paul talked to them and they could live with this so. What else are they going to say. Mary Lou. You know, and the old finance community. I was on there a while and the department came and spoke to us for about an hour a piece. And I've seen how this department has grown. It's always wants to be many steps ahead of regular policing. And they brought on people to help with the domestic violence. And they didn't get money from the town they went out and got a grant they write grants themselves. And I guess I really do feel they're being targeted. I do believe we do need to look at those issues that have been brought to the council. Absolutely. But I go along with the FY 22 budget where you can look where it fits. And I would say appropriately, and if indeed it is a police officer that has a social worker background, that would be great. And we could fill that position that way. But right now, regardless of how well we play praise the police department. The community at large is going to see it as some of them as targeting for whatever the reason but basically because a couple of groups have come to us. They're going to have some issues which, you know, they see and they're important to address. And I think you're doing that. I think the council can say, look, we're looking at this. We need to look at this. We're going to have this study. We're going to have it done. In the meantime, we're going to go forward with with our budget as is. And we will look at places next year where some of these positions would fit in. And indeed it may be police. It may be sharing some services as I say with senior center or public health, but I'm really concerned about the message and I think it's, it has to be demoralizing to the police department. They, they work so hard. They do these long weekends, which the chief told us a couple years ago they don't like to do, but he said you will do it because we need it done. So a department that has worked very hard as, as I would say, all the departments in town to our experience in over 50 years in this town says this town is very well run by people who love the town and do everything they can for it. But I am concerned. I, in conscience, I don't think I could vote to support, not vote because I can't, but give you the support of anything other than the manager's budget as written, because I do think we need to explore the issues, but we need to look ahead and put it in the FY 2020 budget which will be July only 11 months from now without appearing to target a great police department. Recognize that I am targeting the police department. And not because they are bad people, or I think that they're bad police. I had a conversation with my brother who was a police officer. And about the kind of impact bad policing has on every officer, every citizen, every, but so what I'm targeting is funding, funding an organization that has in Amherst, currently, intentionally targeted people of color, because our residents target people are white residents target people of color, they target homeless people, not every resident, but these. I'm sorry. These kinds of things are happening. And I feel like it's the turn of the community of color. To call some of the shots. And right now the shot is eliminate 52% of the funding for the police. I couldn't do that to this department. But I can take away these positions. And I know it's a token gesture. I can make that token gesture as long as we are committed to really looking at our police and really looking at EMS and fire, who have been under staff for years and that didn't hasn't come forward very much. And by residents and stuff. So is there a way that we have men and women in the fire department who are demoralized because they're not funded. I think that we need to. I know I'm rambling and I apologize. This is really complex. I'm targeting the police. And I target them with respect. And the, and I say that the voice of the community of color right now is the voice I need to listen to. And as much as I can, I have my limits too. And I don't think any of that was helpful but It was helpful Pat. It was helpful. I'll mute myself. I have to step out for a second to, we have a friend who just got diagnosed with cancer and I've got to tell Carol to call her. I'll be right back. Mary Lou, your hand is up by the end of fewer. No, it US I spoke before. Yeah, I'm all set right now. Thanks. Just wanted to make sure. So, I think that we're still on the motion and, you know, part of it, I think was very well said by Pat that The concern has been expressed by the community whether we agree with their with all of the spokespeople that they said, or what they recommended isn't the question the question is whether pieces of what has been presented to us, both in that hearing and well before that require us to take some action as a council. And is this the appropriate action. I guess that the only words that I would want to focus on is held in a bit on not allocated or spent doesn't allow any increase in the part time budget if that becomes necessary. Right. I think we need to change on some different words there. But otherwise, I still, I think that the, you know, I think we can work clear that it's it's not the police department's budget will be held in abeyance or not allocated, not allocated or spent. It's the positions. Two specific positions. So I think we maybe that's what we need to make clear if it's not clear enough now. The budget will the other rest of the budget will have changes there will be over time there. It's it's really those two positions that we're saying are the funding associated with those two will not be spent. Just put a period after the word of abeyance. Does that still that to bacon positions will be held in abeyance. I mean, yeah. Right. I think so. And if you needed to you could say not filled, you know, we're not filling them. But that's, that's what we're saying right we're not going to fill these two positions. Paul came up with this very elegant word abeyance. Yes, I think flexibility is important. Paul has. So I think, you know, held in abeyance is confusing to people. So let's make it an easier easier English. Let's say shall not be filled. That's much clearer people understand what that means. And also, I think we need a I think I don't think it's two sentences. I think it's we need an until word in there until the town manager and console blah blah blah because I otherwise it's a statement that they will not be filled. I'm not sure that's what we're saying. And we take out town council here. Well, just don't take it out yet. Yeah, but you need to take out the held. Yeah. We'll not be filled. Absolutely. That's great. We'll be filled. Well, not back in there. Okay. And then you could put until until January 31st. I mean, if we want to, you know, until the until report back until the town manager reports to the town council by January 31st. And then you could say that they're, they're pulling exploring. So it's we're trying to make it they're not going to be filled over the next six months is the way pulled originally said. I still feel like it needs to say with the town count that in consultation with the town council and residents of Amherst. Yeah, that should be in there. That was easy. So this now the semi if we don't break it into two the semi colon needs to come out. I agree. This is the definition of writing by committee. Excuse me, my, could I interject something. Absolutely. I think that I did not obviously attend yesterday, but I feel like part of the problem here that we're having is, Andy, I just keep coming back to what you try and rain us all in on and the decisions we make as a finance committee are, you know, are financial like the budgets as presented, you know, are they within their budgets just this makes sense and I, I feel like what we're and I'm not, I'm not against what we're trying to do but I feel like what we're trying to do here is something beyond that. We're making more of a statement we're not saying to the police department. No, this is your budget that you presented us is probably out of whack, you know, blah, blah, blah. We're saying something more than that and I think that's. And maybe our everybody's already acknowledged that but I think that's. I just feel like that's where this. The difficulty is. No, I appreciate that, but I think and I kind of get back to. Person who wants to offer the motion. That we did. We do it face to reality that this was originally put forward to us as a motion to substantially reduce funding for the department. We did not think that that was appropriate and we did not think that that was a way to achieve a goal of trying to address how policing is provided in Amherst and to explore it. And this is a way of it's, it's, it's kind of it is kind of a political statement, but I think that we've been forced into that. Yeah, no, I, I, I totally understand that I just, you know, because there's not really a way around that other than doing nothing, which I don't think is appropriate. Got two people with hands up. Yeah. Well, Sharon was one of them and Dorothy was is the other Dorothy. I think that is just purely grammatical in the motion after, after the phrase police department's budget. I think you should delete the will to recommend to the town council that they approval the budget be made or the explicit understanding with the town manager that to upcoming anticipated vacant position the police department's budget, not be filled. There's a recommendation that they not be filled right. The budget is a political statement. It's a statement of the values of the town. And certainly when I was given the community budget services to look at, I was totally shocked at the fact that we spend as a town. So very, very little money under on human services in the health department. And so we're just talking about, I think, looking for perhaps a slightly different balance, totally in consultation with the police department. I think anyone here has any goal of imposing or telling them how to do things, but trying to seek a slightly better balance in response to current events and very serious testimony from a very large group of people who were very representative of the town of Amherst. So, I think it's fitting that we're doing what we're doing. Because I think that the other aspect of it is that you've said it yourself that police department at times is making responses to situations that people might be uncomfortable as a police officer making that response. And they would leave and they would be more comfortable if it's somebody else making a response or that somebody else is with the police during that time. And that's what we want to explore whether that's something that can and should be done. So, I'm trying to see what the council motions are going to look like. So, Kathy, I'm going to turn back to you at this point if there's agreement with the wording of the motion. Are you okay with just taking up the motion on the floor? I am. Lynn is doing edit upon edit. So, I was just going to say that as we've edited that very first paragraph, the actor. Don't even bother with, this is me playing the motion. But I'll go back up to the top one. We've changed the actor back to the town manager. So the budget not be filled until the town manager in consultant blah, blah, blah, blah, there's the link and. Other options, comma, has, because. And then it's has because we've changed the actor back to town manager before we had, has fully compared. And then and presented. The results of the town council know, later, you know. No problem. And that may or may not be, since it's such a long sentence, it's still not liking it, but we don't have to say not be filled for six months, which is how Paul originally stated it. But I am OK with this wording if, and I think the adding paragraphs in the report will help explain why we're making this recommendation. This is Bob. Just the second to last line there on the very end. Is this presented to results? That's not correct somehow. It presented the results or presented results. Or presented the results, yeah. Just, well, we have an editor in chief on the council in addition to Lynn called Mandy, who usually goes through and figures out verbiage. First, we have to just worry about our own motion. Yeah, no, I think it's to me that does what I was trying to talk about yesterday without the consequences Sonia was worried about where I came in and just said, cut two positions, and then come back later and figure out what we want to do. And it was explained why we can't do that. I suggest that we decide which to move because we have two other orders we have to work on. Yeah, so I think that what we should do is if people are comfortable with the motion, the first motion that's on the screen, the one that's currently in gray, if that we go ahead, vote the order and then just immediately have to make that motion. OK, so this is the one you want to vote on. OK. This is the one on the floor, and I made the motion and Pat seconded it. Yes. I'm ready to vote. So let's vote. So there's ready to vote on that. Is Pat back? Yes. OK. Yes, I am. Thank you, Pat. OK. Anybody else have a hand up before we do? The other thing that I would like to do is I go through the motion unless there's an objection. So I want to be clear is that I would like to ask, as we're voting, also ask the three members of the committee who will not be able to vote if they would indicate whether they are voting yes or no and each would vote yes and no on the motions if they could vote. And then we can report that in minutes. Anybody object to doing that? I think it's a great idea. OK. So I think that what I'm going to do is take it in order of let the council vote first and then I'm going to let me turn it around. I'll ask the others first. Bob Hegner, how would you vote on the motion on the floor to recommend the town council approve the FY21 operating budget as recommended by the town manager according to order 2104B? I would vote yes. Mary Lou. I would vote yes. Sharon. I am confused. I am confused by this. We've never voted on anything else and I'm feeling I'm sorry I've been trying to get my thoughts together. I guess if you're going to ask me right now, I'm going to abstain because I feel like we've never been asked to vote on anything before. In fact, we never were not allowed to vote. So to ask us how we would vote if we could vote is very different than asking me for my vote. And I'm not sure whether this has been discussed and I missed this or whether this was a new thing or. This is how we would vote, but not that we are voting, right? Correct. Well, I understand that we're not voting. Yeah, I don't know. I think under the circumstances, Sharon, you would then want to just either abstain or not vote at the moment and wait and see. Maybe you want to vote at the end. It is a change. And I think that the came up because several people have made the suggestion that we have resident members of the committee who've invested as much time as any other members of the committee in this process. And while they're not allowed to vote, that the council would benefit from knowing what their opinion is. I think in the past, we've said we support. Maybe that would be a better way to approach this, that I would support rather than I would I support this motion. Yeah. I think that's a nice distinction. Can I say something? Yes. I have gotten very confused because what's great now is the motion to recommend that the town council will approve the FY21 operating budget as recommended by the town manager. I thought we were voting on that the approval will be budget be made with the explicit understanding, blah, blah, blah. So I'm not sure what I'm going on right now. And I apologize, Sharon, for because we're talking about different things right now. Well, we were taking it in the order simply because it's what's on the floor. I see what you're saying. If they were comfortable with it, but we would recognize that both motions were taking it in the order. And if you would like to vote the first one, then I'm going to remove this motion from the floor. And we just. Which is the one that's in gray now. Yes. OK. And you as the seconder can just agree. Yes, we're going to. I can agree with that. OK, so then we're back to this. I as the other one, OK, well, then we'll switch the order. I that's I think you might have missed that because you're. Yeah, I apologize. I'm sorry. Because we said we would do them both. But it was a personal order and then that came up. I can't make the train go by. Sorry, guys. I'm wondering. Unfortunately, I live in Cushman right behind the Cushman Stores. It's about the cross pine street. And so Northbound train is blasting its whistle just as it passes our house. I've been living there that now for more than 30 years. So that's what it goes. So Kathy, do you want to make the motion that is now in gray? I would love to make that motion. I move that to recommend to the town council that approval of the budget be made with the explicit understanding with the town manager that two upcoming anticipated vacant positions in the police department budget not be filled until the town manager in consultation with the town council and residents of Amherst has fully explored alternative options of providing services and presented the results to the town council no later than January 31st, 2021. It's your second. Second. Turn that unmuted. Yeah, I second it. Okay, stand muted and we'll go out. So we have motion that's on the floor. I'll come back and ask the support question of the resident members, but let's do the vote first. So, Pat Dangelis? Yes. Lynn Grisner? Yes. Dorothy Pam? Yes. Yeah, Shane? Yes. And I vote yes. And the question asking the resident members if they would support this motion by Hegner? I would support it. Yes. Lou, Talman? No. And Sharon Povevelli? I am abstaining. Okay. And Andy, can I qualify that by saying it has nothing to do with a community-wide discussion about policing, but I don't support tying up those vacancies, that is my issue. And we'll try and get that into the report. So the vote is five to zero. We have asked the resident members of the committee, one has indicated that he would support, one supports the goals, but not the means in essence, does not support- Nice to phrase that. It's not exactly what you said, but it is. More succinct. And Sharon Povevelli has abstained. So then we're back to the motion that's in gray. Do you want to offer it again, Lynn? Yep. I recommend, to recommend that the town council approve the FY 21 operating budget as recommended by the town manager, according to order 21-04B. Is there a second? Second. That was Kathy this time, who seconded. So we'll go through the same, is there any further discussion? Hearing none, we'll go through the same process that we just went through. And so Kathy, Shane. Yes. Becky Pam. Yes. Lynn Gussmer. Yes. Pat Angelis. Yes. And I vote yes. And then going to the resident members on an indication of whether you would support this motion, Mary Lou Tauman. Yes. Bob Hegner. Yes, I would support it. Okay, Sharon Povevelli. Yes. Okay, so thank you for that. So I think, Lynn, if you could... We have one more. We need to recommend they rescind the one month. Oh yeah. I'll make the motion. Okay, go ahead, Kathy. I move to recommend that the town council rescind the one month budget for July 2020 as approved by the town council on June 15th, 2020. Second, Angelis. Okay, so any further discussion? Thank you, Nandy. Does that mean you can't spend any money the rest of this month or the new budget will... When does the new budget kick in right away? New budget kicks in as soon as the council passes it. Yeah. So is there going to be a gap between... Oh, they guess they have to vote this recommend too. Okay. And Mary Lou, Sonia has ruled in July into the larger budget we're voting on. Oh, okay, thank you. It's not missing a month. Okay. But we don't want to have to treat it for accounting purposes and auditing purposes as a separate fiscal year. We want it to be that the audit is of the full fiscal year. Oh, good, thanks. So that's why that was... So the motion on the floor is about that would come up for vote in the council after it approves the FY21 operating budget then it would be asked to rescind the one month budget. So I have to go through again a roll call vote. Dorothy Pam. Yes. And Lynn Griezmer. Yes. Beth Angelis. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. And I would go... I do vote yes. And Sharon Povinelli, do you support this motion? Yes. And Mary Lou Tauman. Yes. And Bob Hegner. Yes. Okay. So I think that that then takes us to where we have completed the action on the budget itself. And we have two attendees. And Lynn, I don't know if you can bring them into the room. Andy. I heard Maureen and Amy Rasecki, yes. Andy, don't we have the assessor, we have a couple of other motions that I thought we had to vote on. Yes, that's why I was raising the question. I can bring them into the room. Okay. Yep, there they are. Okay, so, Guilford, welcome. Here's Guilford Health and Reserve Amy Rasecki. Hello. Hi Amy. So you can speak for any questions that anybody has. Hi, Guilford. Welcome, board. Thank you for your patience before we got to it. But I think that we now want to turn to the capital spending order, which is asked to be with four different issues, two water fund and two sewer fund issues. And... Got me to pull them up on the screen. Actually, they're all encompassed in the single order and that's, I think, what would go on the screen if you have that order. Let me find that. Because I might have the order too, if you don't. It's... I have it right now. Okay, great. So let me see if I can do that and... I may need to allow you to share, but I think you can. It's COF 21. You can share, Andy. Okay, so now we have the order on the screen. And... Now we've done it. You have to put the order in. We have your screen, but not the order. There you go. Really? Now we have it. Is it on or not? I think it was just a time lag. It was a time lag. So what is on the screen is the order that we're being asked to do, whether we recommend to the council. This is a borrowing bond authorization. It will require two-thirds vote in the council. It is to borrow funds for four separate purposes. Superintendent Moring has provided memos, which have been provided both to the count, to the committee and to the council, explaining and forcing the memos to each of the projects that's been failed. And I think that the... Right now, what we wanna see, are there any questions about any of the proposals? And we wanna be able to... Be able to address those questions now. And Lynn, Lynn, I see your hand waving. Thank you. I want to just know that these items and the anticipated rate schedules presented to us earlier and we approved. Yes. They were approved in the rates and they are also as they're in the budget book. If you look in the sections for the water fund and the sewer fund in the capital sections of each of them, they are there. So... Important to me, maybe because we have then had appropriate hearings on all of that. Can I just, I just wanna pipe in on this because some of these don't hit only costs in the coming fiscal year. So they are not in the FY21 rate that we voted on. And I had the, at least one of the water ones. I pulled up the sewer one, like Centennial doesn't hit till three years out, Lynn. You know, in terms of... I understand that, but when we were provided a set of rates, even though we only approved this year, we were provided estimated rates going out five years. Yeah, we were. And we were also told that those weren't necessary. You know, in terms of they could be smoothed out. So you were right, we saw five year schedule. So I, what I did find in talking to a few residents is they did not understand the five year implication on where rates were going. They were so shocked by one year. I mean, we didn't talk a lot about and rates go up 45% or 48% over five years, but it was in the document. It definitely was. Yeah. So can I just, I just had one question on this that's probably a Sonia question rather than a Guilford Amy is some of these, the debt service, the way it was shown to us in like on sewer, they weren't all coming in in FY 22. If we borrowed the money in FY 21, we'd start paying off principal and interest. So I just lining up, I can see a reason that you'd want to go out and get all of this money together because interest rates are so low right now. So it was a question on the financing side. If we're going out for the 18 million or whatever the total is, because I looked at the suit, I tried to pull up sewer to see when, it was a nicely done document and we got on when the gravity belt, I guess the capital borrowing was showing up in FY 22. So maybe sewer is not the right example. It's just centennial. So that was just my question. So you're trying to understand what you're asking. So if we borrow now for centennial, 11 million and we start paying off on debt, did the water rate we saw for FY 22 start to have to pay centennial debt? And I thought I remembered that centennial debt didn't start showing up till 23 or 24. I have to pull up water. I'll have to go back and look at that too. But just because we have this all together, I mean, this is the way the attorneys did it the first time they did it, they just put it all on a graph so you would have to go through all the separate votes. Just because we authorized this right now doesn't mean they're all gonna be borrowed right now. Okay, that answer. It won't happen until the project start. I know Guilford's ready to work on a couple of these projects, but I'm not sure which ones yet, but it's just basically authorizing it at this point. You completely answered my question. So although we're voting them together, that doesn't mean you're going out to finance them all in this coming fiscal year. Okay. We also have to have authorization and approval before we can do these. Okay, that was just because I went back and looked thinking wait, I didn't think centennial hit our rates until X year. So, thank you answered my question. Mary. Mary Lou. Andy. Yes. I can't. I have a question for Guilford. I thought that the town meeting dealt with the gravity belt thickener a couple of years ago and I thought you even demonstrated what it was. I did. That was actually the funds to design the gravity belt thickener, this is actually the construction installation costs. All right. Thank you. Other questions? Committee. Has the one question that I had is on the centennial water plant. Has the work been underway with Tana and Howard? I assume they're the ones who are helping with the design. Yes. They've been doing the design. We're almost at the 30% design mark in our schedule. We'll be there at the end of April, I mean, August probably. And we're still looking for a end of FY21, end of FY21 bid and award date. There will be likely question in the council about the pieces to whether it's feasible to do any solar with the installation to reduce the cost. So as we move forward and design the plant at that point, once the plant's designed and accepted by DEP, then we can start looking at solar again. And then if we were to look at solar, we wouldn't look at it as part of the, we wouldn't look at the solar installation as really part of the facility because the solar it's going to be required is going to be an acre or two or three acres of actual solar field to run this facility. A rooftop system is not going to run the facility. So that would be a follow on to this project as we move forward more. Is the cost included in the $11 million? For solar? Yes. Solar will be a large, it'll be a large solar facility to run this plant. So we would need more than $11 million to install it if we were to do that. We would probably look at doing some type of RFP where we bring on a solar provider to help us with this and then go with that route instead of just buying outright solar panels and installing our own solar field. So basically we don't know the real cost of the Centennial Water Treatment Facility. We know the cost that we're expecting of the Centennial Water Treatment Facility as it will be designed and operated with power. We do not know the cost of getting alternative power such as getting a solar power or some other type of power system. All right, thank you for the clarification. You know, at least when, I think it was Amy who was asking, answering some of these questions when it came up with the council, the question came up is, would you design the plant differently in any way if you were trying to also, I don't know where we're gonna be three years or four years from now of literally being able to run things off of solar. So the way some houses, actually, they put generators in and they're generating it. So it was a question on whether you put a solar person in while the thing is being designed and does it affect it at all? And I think that was left as a maybe yes, maybe no, kind of answer. It is a maybe yes, maybe no answer. The treatment processes have to be sound and accepted by DEP. That's the controlling factor in the design of the plant. So until that's nailed down, there really is no desire or no need to bring in a solar person. Okay. And I guess the only other question I have, I'm not questioning Centennial at this point, but if you mass doesn't come back in full, we still need this plant. Is the answer to that? Yes. The treatment. We spent a large amount of money over the years developing what I'm calling now our water portfolio, our portfolio of water resources. And we would lose that. If we don't do something with Centennial, we'll lose that. And we'd have to spend more money to get it back as well as build a facility. Okay. Thank you. I just want to mention that remind people this facility is actually not in Amherst and it's not subject to the zero energy bylaw. That does not mean when we build the facility, it shouldn't be built to every possible situation. Solar, to make it energy efficient. But one of the reasons we would not probably even try to put solar anywhere near it is it would be dealing with another town. The other thing, and I said this before, whether UMass comes back or not, water, protecting your water resources is part of sustainability. And so we have three major water resources. We need to protect this one. And the only way we can protect it is if we build a plant to process the water before the permit expires. That's correct. If I can, I just want to, you know, specifically to Kathy and some of the questions you were asking, I do want to reassure you that we've had conversations with the consultant engineer in this and they know that we want to have that conversation about solar. And so they're not going to do anything that prohibits the ability for solar to come in after the fact. I don't quite know what that means because I'm not a solar person, but they do know that they can't do anything that makes it so we can't add that on in the future. So that has been involved in the conversation at least. I have a question. Yeah, go ahead, Lynn. Dorothy has a comment. Oh, just a comment. Yeah, I guess that's really very important because the position that you cited is key in solar. So that at least they would cite it facing in the right direction if they're putting a solar on the roof or whatever. So that's good. Well, I think that the finder stood with Guilford said correctly, because of the nature of the land and the size of the facility and the amount of electricity it uses. You have to remember that this is really pretty much from the edge of a very wooded area that it would probably be a solar field and not as you would do it on the top of a building. So there are other questions because if not, then I think we can move forward with trying to see if we have a motion to recommend approval of the order. So I'll make a motion and that's to recommend that the town council approve appropriation and borrowing authorization order FY 21-09 as presented. Is there a second? Second. No, it's Pat. Okay, any further discussion? I'm going to go through the same voting procedure which is utilized, you know, start with Lynn. Yes. Pat. Yes. Kathy. Kathy Shane. Did we lose Kathy? Oh, she needs time to use. I tried to mute myself and I didn't unmute. Yes. I vote yes. So that it's five to zero and the question on Darlton. Oh, Darlton, I'm sorry. Yes, yes, I do. I vote yes, Pam. Yes, yes. Thank you. And in the question on whether they support Bob Hegner. Yes, I would support. And Mary Lou Townman. Yes, I would support and agree with Lynn in terms of protecting our water resources. And Sharon Putnamnally. Yes, I support. Okay. So thank you to both Guilford and Dave for having joined us. We have one more vote. Do we have the assessment? Thank you very much. Aye. Do we have the assessment of the president's also? Aye. Okay, I don't think that it's necessary. I'm looking to see. I explained it yesterday or the day before. Yeah, I think if you just put the handy, it's fine. Seeing if the order is available easily, not where I'm just going to go on having problems. Some of the stuff sharing. What the order is that is being asked for or is presented to would allow us to offer the additional or optional segment of the tax incentives for qualifying veterans blind and elderly. Is there any further questions about it? I think it was pretty well explained the other day when the assessor was with us. So seeing nobody asking questions, I think that the motion that we would be looking for is a motion that would recommend to the council approval of order 21-11 acceptance of optional tax exemptions. Is there a motion? So moved. Second. Lynn's making his motion. Wait. We have a second. Kathy made the motion, Lynn seconded it. Okay. Let's go through the same voting process that we went through previously. And then I think that we're pretty much over at the end of our action part of the meeting. So Kathy Shane. Yes. We're voting. I said yes. And Lynn Gruzmer. Yes. Yeah, I heard you. Got it. Yes. Lynn is the yes. Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pat Fainless. Yes. And I vote yes. And then a question of whether they support Bob Higner. Yes. Mary Lou Tomlin. Yes. Sharon Pavanelli. Yes. Okay, everybody said yes on that one. I think that that takes us through all of the motion. So we need to pass. And the only other question that I have is I think there was some discussion earlier. You've seen the, or hopefully had a chance to see the draft report. I draft report won't be going out until tomorrow. So that if you have additional comments or thoughts about it and get them back to me and or to Kathy, we will consider them. Kathy and I will try and work together on putting together a final report. But I did want to include an opportunity if there are any comments or suggestions. And I tried to do as much of the draft as I could prior to the meeting. So the least that'd be an opportunity for discussion if anybody had anything that they immediately wanted to bring up. I just have, I have a question. It's a question and a comment on the report for the appendices. We talked about two appendices. One would be Mary Lou's right up of schools, elementary school, not all schools. And then one way of doing the Q&As we sent in for additional information would be literally just a copy and paste the Q&As and Sean has put them in a document. I suggested that I work with that a little bit. In Lynn said she would prefer, she worked with her general services sides. So I'm also okay with just copying the whole PDF in which Sean already gave us. So I just wanted to know whether people wanted to edit it a little bit to make it more readable or just to copy it in. Because copying is really the easiest thing to do. I think you should just copy it in. Okay. So then, so there are these two appendices and I'll just get those for you Andy so that you can append them when it's time to append them. And then the second was to do a link when we talk about budgets and then clearly right away to the budget document, the town manager's budget. But we also wanted to put a link, I think to the library budget, the regional school budget, the elementary school budget. And Lynn had suggested the elementary school budget. There are two versions of it. One was before they had to make the extra cuts that's a fuller document. And I will just, if everyone's fine with that, I'll just give you all the links to those. Or Sean can give me the school links just so we can put them in if people want to go look at the longer documents. So that was the two things I saw aside from Verbiage where we clearly need a couple paragraphs to pick up what we just did today on why we did what we did. And that's, you've got placeholders for that. If you can provide links in the document, that's fine. I was also suggesting that the documents actually be put in the council's packet. Oh, okay. Okay, so we can put the whole document in. I know how to do hot links. I've never sure whether in a PDF of a hot link works, you know, send the budget. But do you want to just add, literally just make sure they are in the packet? Okay. I think that's the way Athena understood it, but I'll check with her. Okay, then she, I can actually just leave it to Sean then that he makes sure she knows what those are, you know. Are we talking about the library? If we want to put library, you know, we want to put this fellow in and it's the actual document library. Elementary school was a two piece, one the two pager they sent to us that what was changed from their folding. And then do we want to put regional schools in or we've seen regional schools? Regional schools has been approved already, so I don't think you want to reach them. You don't want to go back to schools at all. That's fine. I'm not sure that, Lynn, do you really want to put the entire library budget in? I already sent the, sent Athena the library budget in the schools to put into a packet. Okay. They're not appending Amanda. They're just putting them in the town councilor's packet. So if somebody says, well, I don't know where that document is. It's right. It's nice and easy to get. Okay. Any other questions? Bob, you and your hand up a minute ago. I don't know if you've taken it down. Yeah, I did take it down, but I don't expect anything to change as a result. I have a little concern that some of the rich insights that we got from the various meetings with the departments, department heads are kind of buried in the Q&A document, but they're not really highlighted. And for example, the one issue about the wastewater permit and up to one million to multiple millions, it's there, but it may not jump out to the council members who aren't part of the committee. So again, I don't expect, I don't think we should change anything given the late hour, but I do, it may be helpful at the council meeting to point out one or two of the big things just as points of reference so that we can direct their attention to that. Bob, one way of handling it, I mean, I'm willing to try it, is put this PDF in that has all the Q&As and just as a reader's guide, some of the big things that came out are bullet, bullet, bullet, bullet, just so that you don't have to read because even when they said the sewer, then it said one O and E to multiple millions. It didn't like one million to, you know. Right, right. Yes, yes. So either way, because I think that was a big one. And then the other piece is when Pat did, when we talked about police and fire, the notion that we're due a staffing study on fire EMS, I mean, that doesn't, it's not anywhere in the budget. It's a, but, so I can try and we can certainly do it verbally. Yeah. Yeah, that might be the simplest thing is just have, you know, three or four key things to point out, you know. Okay. Thank you for bringing that up. And Kathy and I will work on it with that and sounds like Kathy has a plan. I wanted just to ask, there's one member of the public present if there's a request to make public comment to the committee. I want to offer you the opportunity and so please raise your hand if you would like to be recognized for public comment. And I will go on to conclude business, but I will keep an eye on it so that if you do raise your hand then I will recognize for public comment. So is there any other business that any other thoughts about the report or other business that people would like to bring forward to this committee? Because if not, I just want to say to all of you that this has been the most extraordinary budget year that I can ever remember in all of the years that I've worked on budgets as a member of the finance committee, as a chair of the finance committee living through 2008, 2009 and 10 and then my years on the select board and the last couple of years on the council, I've never dealt with anything like this last year. And I want to thank Paul and Sonia and now Sean for helping us get through this, but I also want to thank all of you who've been on the committee for sticking together and putting an extraordinary amount of work in these last few weeks to not only deal with really an unprecedented budget situation with multiple problems, but to do it under an extraordinary timeline and to do it and we actually were kind of put in a position not of our choice, but to even do it in less than 30 days allotted by the charter for the finance committee to receive the budget, review it and come back and make recommendations. And so I just thank all of you. I second all of that and I also particularly want to thank our resident non-voting members who have set a precedent for how to serve the town of Amherst in a way that is so incredibly valued and provide us with insight that sometime those of us that are in the weeds don't have the opportunity to see and I especially want to recognize Mary Lou since she's been continuing on the finance committee and thank her for her patience in teaching us the things that she has done over this last year in a way that has exhibited her years of experience and her patience as well. I want to thank Andy for his experience, his leadership and his humility in leading a group which has certainly some newbies such as me for the amount of incredible leadership and work that he's had to put in. And also to thank Kathy as the incredible vice chair. This has been really something. Well, thank you. With that, I think that we're done with our business. We have no further noticed meetings of the committee and get a let it rest for a few weeks. What we'll probably do is at a suitable time later in the summer and when Sonia has a year and report available for us to look at we'll probably be the right timing to do this. To then get together, revisit the process, think about what we learned from the process and what we might want to do differently as a committee next year. But we have no meetings currently scheduled and won't schedule one until Sonia tells us that she has a year-end report. Been a year Sonia. Andy, I just, I have one, just one. I'm going to interrupt to say that I need to leave. I apologize, but I'm going to leave. I'll send you a note, but there was a, there's a possible, if we wanted to restructure the way we do water rates, we're sending some options into the board. So I just wanted to, if and when we meet again, I'm willing to work on a subcommittee, work on that and or we can figure out offline. Cause I think there's one council member that isn't one of us who's willing to do that too. And Sean, this was just some ideas of variance we would want to see, not like this is the variant. Yeah. Yeah, and we're just, just cause it relates, we're building that into our calendar some time to look at that in the fall. So that's on our radar as well. Okay. And I felt like you need something from us to react to. And then, and then we can, and then we can be back and forth on it. Yeah. And Guilford's going to be heavily involved in sort of bringing some ideas as well. Okay. Great. Thank you. Not, I'm not trying to prolong our meetings right now. Thank you. So with that, is there anything else? Otherwise, I think we're adjourned. Thank you everybody. Thank you.