 Yes, I'm here Hey so Hi, everybody. Welcome to the the newest of our regular meetings at the media and entertainment special interest group at hyper ledger And we have a special guest today somebody with whom I had a excuse me very long Rich and involved conversation a few months ago. The gentleman in question is mr Chris C who's the founding director at cardstack, which proudly announces itself as the world's first Cooperative SAS platform. It was a excuse me a project that interested me not only because of its Great promise when it comes Projects for example, what is now verified media, but which used to be dot blockchain music and so on and so forth Is his provenance so to speak in the blockchain language is something that I've been following for several years So with that in order to explain to us exactly what cardstack is and what it can do. I hand you over to Chris Thank you, David and thank you for inviting me to this working group You know, we at Cardstack has been working on multiple projects both as individuals as company as we mentioned I've worked on a couple of blockchain projects The first one was monograph. What's the first NFT platform? I think on the Bitcoin blockchain and then obviously verify media in the music space big passion of mine trying to solve that music meta data Right Distribution and royalty distribution problem using blockchain as an ingredient today I'm going to talk to you about the building blocks that we have learned over the years and working in blockchain and media and cloud and migration and digital transformation all together on what we kind of think is the Necessary building block is obviously something we're working towards but we depend on many things in the kind of DLT blockchain Decentralized web ecosystem as a way to create this new creative economy, which is the focus I actually gave a talk of the same title at consensus, which is the blockchain conference Usually in New York where it was virtual last year. This is an update. So this is really the second Version of it and today I'm going to focus on a couple of things that has developed since the last year So when I gave this talk last year, we were in the middle of pandemic and then a lot happened, especially in the blockchain space We've been focusing in the permissionless blockchain area around Ethereum and stuff like that So I want to make sure that we are able to Get that Zeitgeist and bring it to the broader world Not only people within the kind of like tip of the iceberg of working on NFT But also, hey, how does that affect the media business especially? I'm sure people in this in Special interest group has some interest in that particular area so we're gonna talk a little bit about the three kind of I would say Slices of the problem of what we believe the new creative economy includes one is a real Movement away from the platform or at least beyond the platform the Google the Facebook the the the Apple and say can Protocols define a new era of tech the way we build software do they distributed the way we share value that would enable new Opportunity so we'll talk about what that means specifically for media the second part is culture We we just came out of an age of the influencers where people use The the distribution platform social network like YouTube tech talk Instagram to build a following and those people are now Stepping into the next age and age of the creative entrepreneur where they're starting to Invest in company build their own business burger business whatever it might be getting away from the brand being the voice of a brand and doing shelling on on Sponsored post and actually becoming the brand becoming the the the manufacturer and becoming not just a merge But off of real products So we're gonna look at the culture and how that affects how this create economy and how that changes the Relationship between the the media the creator creates and and and their audiences and then finally business 2.0 There's a magazine about that But most kind of a solidify in the Uber lifts Airbnb We work with a sharing economy now with blockchain especially on the value sharing and the ability to do Kind of a define economic relationship. We're seeing people thinking about cooperation. Why don't we come together and build our own? Network and now these are all experiment They might put money together to buy an NFT by some art, but we're seeing some possibility of that actually defining new type of Cooperation where those entities structure call it the centers automize autonomous organization of doubt you want But that is really about the coordination of the tools enabled by the tech and Empowered by the culture that these creatives has power where they're coming together and forming new organization So this is the three slices that we will probably talk about each one at a time So just as a little preview in tech 3.0 We're going to talk about web 3 what that's what does that mean? What do we see at a cost deck? What would that look like to an end user so they can kind of go and compose in using the Composability of the underlying technology where this protocols or smart contracts or different DID protocol working together How do we synthesize that back to an experience as competitive to the tech 2.0 giants of the platform era in fang or fam? What if you call them? Culture 3.0 you can't not talk about NFT not just the speculation and buying and selling 68 billion dollars worth of JPEG But what is there actually and being a person has been in a kind of digital art NFT space since? 2015 I'm going to share with you the way I think about how to decompose what this NFT movements means And how does that point a direction to what's where we believe medias go and beyond this early speculative art? trading enterprise and then finally we'll talk about Decentralized finance to the degree that these type of capital formation and revenue sharing can allow for the creation of these replacements for the uber and lifts and certainly beyond that in thinking about patreon and sub stack What is the business 3.0 cooperative version of those look like and so I'll talk in roughly in Equal chunk each part of these things in our view at cost I haven't worked on that for a long time what it means So if there's no any Complaint I'll go directly into web 3 composability So one of the interesting things about web 3 as a protocol So we are talking about not the UI aspect But just the web 3 API pioneered by the ethereum team and kind of adopted by even other competing DLT teams and say hey this is a way to Inject this value layer and in some cases the night daddy layer onto this existing web pages by way of using additional Information from the blockchain or beyond to decorate or enhance the capability One things that became really clear is that there's a tremendous amount of opportunity to compose the primitives and the protocols in web 3 to create new application that doesn't have to rebuild the entire infrastructure of let's say you're using a trading system You can use uniswap as a protocol and then build a new UI a new aggregate in front of it We're gonna see that in media very simply soon because what happens if you kind of look back at the web 2.0 Or the current platform era is that the world's creative output of this text images audio are basically Siloed into these brands that we all know and love and yes It's great if you're a creator you get the ability to reach your audience by publishing your your tweets or your post or Uploading your song through Spotify and you reach the audience the problem is the reverse Which is the money of the audience and their tension their tension comes back with counts and stuff like that But the money trickles down in you know Whether it's purchase a subscription or add revenue in somewhat random ways and And smaller than you would expect given the the cultural impact of someone who has a million streams on Spotify They may get five bucks right so what happens is that even more difficult than that these kind of Relationship are very very fragile that if you were to move Into an area that the platform doesn't like you can get the platform Or it could be difficult to survive an acquisition where one of these platform gets kind of a Disappear from the face of the earth and all your followers goes away So what we see is that these kind of text images and also the commercial terms of purchase and subscription Can be remodeled using that composability idea that is bit deeply ingrained in the idea of a smart contract But then we push that and kind of match that in the interface layer So what that really means is not really that surprising you can have a website You have a modular space and you bring different elements of these Components with audio player video players and it's you know roots or whether it's decentralized or centralized storage You bring it together So what we've been working on is a set of design patterns not necessarily the design the design can be theme and skin in any The way what we call cut space using a design system called box So which is using a CSS box mod that idea of a composability within the web browser to figure out can we Reflect this type of composability starting out with being able to connect the wallet So the user and the creator and the audience Creates this relationship with each other not through this website and the database in it But through the wallet where this data's database as a dab It's just I couldn't do it for the communication wallet to wallet Intermediated by this experience and once you've collected a wallet to the degree that you're a creator You can summon the edges and turn something that is just a regular web page into a fully function no code application And then once you have that you can then tap into different aspects of it and figure out which things you want to modify And that's when we can take parameters where that is trivial parameters like formatting or actually deeper parameter like pricing or restrictions that may actually Require you to do an on-chain transaction to modify something and this is all nested So the structure that you see on the screen is actually a Particular hierarchy that preserved its own boundary while allowing for a nested thing for those has been in the Computer space long enough. This is open dock right in the way to be able to do this kind of nesting embedding while preserving the objects Itself so if you have this ability to change the structure You're merely changing how it arranged in space without necessarily changing what that living in the mind for life is and that could be going to a DLT in registering the play like like with the audio Audio's project or it could be mapping another a new protocol. We haven't seen before So this idea of layout being separate from structure is something that I've done a lot of work in that single source publishing XML But seeing that the possibility of composability and from that kind of document Publishing world bringing it to the web being into the rich media experience is something that was very obvious Once we see the parts and that's what we're working on now Everything you see here is something that we have already produced in in a design system And is available for use for other application to create these kind of beautiful experiences And you can skin and theme and your full control because it's a hundred percent open source So one really big idea is this idea that once you have these media modules that you can then create new types of module in a catalog almost like uploading something to a source code repository or even a package registry like npm and then you can add new Capability to this space the same way someone can deploy new smart contracts to mainnet and and enhance the capability system And this is how we can tap to that composable and bring it all together From the user being able to tap and do those things But here's the key the key is that there's a big change in web 2 and web 3 Which is that as powerful as that application that media and community experience just saw is it is not Where the actual relationship between the creator and the audience lies? Because while you may building this amazing Consuming and contributing creating news name the actual identity the membership the money the financial Relationship is actually captured in a wallet which is self-suffering and connected to each users and their participants and the creator and the audience So and this is the first punchline. I believe that for the building blocks for creating economy, especially around the tech The audience portability the fact that you connect your wallet to adapt and you can Get like you can reanimate all your fans and people your relationship people who bought your art people have subscribed someone who Share a community token they all show up because that type of data is portable through your self-hosted wallet You're your your phone as a way to port everywhere else and if we are able to Break the portability barrier of like exporting friends from Facebook and switched it to where your wallet Right this web 3 wallet that that is actually cryptographically secure and communicating various protocol Is your it is what who you're bringing with you then? It doesn't really make matter what experience or what no code to or even what custom to it is just You know evolving in the software space, but it's not locking your data in it's not restricting your ability to grow Your audience across these silos so you're no longer in those texts is here images there music is there And you're just having a multimedia conversation with your growing audience that you have a direct relationship with So that's the first part how web 3 we believe it the second part around culture and It's impossible to talk about media and blockchain Without thinking about NFTs and To people NFT is just a thing you trade and you hopefully you make some money But you know as a media technologist that I've been working in the field for almost 20 years Anytime I see a new acronym I try to break down what it is and we look inside an NFT and try to you know Tease the onion layers of the thing and identify about tens discreet layer of what people call NFT kind of colloquial What they're actually pointing into is these set of concept the transaction on chain the proof of existence of the binary the ownership history and the provenance The metadata that's associated with what it is the content itself the media content the gif the animation of 3d file How is persisted who is persisting it who is archiving it? How is it being rendered in the player? Is it on a website? Can it be portable to another website? Who are the participant what kind of market buying and selling renting and and borrowing and then what kind of permission you get? Right with that thing and I can tell you most of the type of NFT that has been purchased so far The permission is you can enjoy it. It's like an autograph picture of LeBron James a rookie card, right? You have it. It's in a little glass case or a critical case, but you don't own the right to use it in a Commercial you don't have the ability to reproduce it You don't even have derivative rights to go make an artwork based on that You just have an autograph photos that you can enjoy in your own time But that is not necessarily always going to be true So we think about what's happening is that the blockchain part the DLT part is really the ownership history And that's valuable for that for the thing for the autograph copy of the LeBron James photo But what about the other aspects of the ownership to your own the IP rights you own the royalty stream Is it something that gets you paid if you own 50% of this Beatles song and then the media management a traditional area where we have You know digital asset catalogs like that. How does that work when things has to be visible to other people? What kind of permission do we get do we get that do we hold back the high-resolution 4k version? Maybe the pro rest version is not available to collect it But it's available a licensee using this in a in a film and the part I want to focus on these the actual utility the participant in the market permission I think this is the least explore part of what NFT can do. So let's break that down a little bit So when we're thinking about the the most obvious thing which is I have an original copy like the autograph photo And I can prove to the world that I have permission to prove to you that I have it and the creator if I sell it Gets a share and that's really cool, right? So if you sell an NFT on certain platform that's created a share It's not really a royalty It's really a commission of some sort like an upside sharing and the creator gets a stuff But if you look at the other use case that gets a little bit closer to what media businesses Used to do. I have a license. There's a market for licenses royalty free Whatever me there's a licensee and your permission is to make a derivative work There's no reason this cannot map to the blockchain DLT record the media management and the the full rest version and the ability to interact with these things and From a commercial like end user retail point of view There are membership that you can buy maybe you get a discount this discount is not for this particular NFT But anybody who owns my NFT that in the series two and three gets a lifetime 50% off my podcast subscription That's now possible, right? That also can be cross-honored, which is anybody who is one of my page And here's all my creative friends 20 of up one of us if you own any of our NFT You get a automatic subscription for one year for our joint group or community And that's really using the media itself as the artifact to determine what you can do with it The utility of getting a discount or getting an access through that and then finally rights holders Sorry, so if you own this IP not just the autograph photo the actual photo itself Then maybe a music would be much easier to reason about if I own 50% of the Comp musical work rights of this thing I can get a split for the next 20 years or royalty coming from the societies and stuff like that That is currently not being done and obviously the work that I've done in verify media and and it's focused on that My my work that I did with monograph of so can some more of the odd things But I think the focus I have right now is around this idea of membership in this formation of these new entities That otherwise would not come together if not for the ability for them to make deals using code So this is a really powerful thing So we did some mock-up of what that might look like so so this would be creating an item in an NFT And then you can decide what your creator share could be you can say I will only get 10 but then discount if you are super fan and that could be because you own some community tokens or you own some NFTs but these kind of things go way beyond what Shopify allows you to do and if someone say hey, I want to sell an NFT on Shopify Well Shopify have to think through all these things the way it connects to addresses and Deposit accounts and smart contract wallets and dows But I think there's a new opportunity to use that kind of tech Three-point of the protocol to rebuild a lot of the kind of idea of e-commerce and Relationship and how to make money through these media Exchanges so that brings me to my second punchline, which is the media itself is the new merch Right, so we have been in a situation where we're Musicians and whatever is relying on even influencer of selling physical goods, right or getting affiliated links for Amazon to sell you a physical box that shows up on your doorstep to make any money But I do believe that with this digital type of goods NFT being the very very beginning of that but the utility of that like what are you what are digital artifacts? You're buying what are the tools allows you to do it that allows us to think about that as the monetization the media Self is the monetization not just subscription access to every music But the actual unique items that gives you different type of permission It's kind of like a game. You're buying in-game item You level up you get a sword and you can take different fights and fight different bosses I think that type of intersection between multiplayer online role-playing games and that same group of people Experimenting in public blockchain and playing playing these kind of numbers game It's quite correlated and we should look at that as a inspiration of what the what we can do to make media It's self-valuable because not just of a scarcity and collectible value But for what it can do for people and how we can bring people together and then the last part is payments and how that glues it and that kind of currency in a in a current in a water flow You want to make sure that these relations of people forming actually Conducts electricity have currents through them and those currency is a type of payments so consumer payments is a Fairly easy to do you can Apple pay and buy subscription on Apple one or Spotify But the problem you have is that once you go beyond I'm paying this person You know a hundred percent of the thing once you think with the splits where you have to start triggering is that okay? I owe ten percent to this thing and then I split it between the two rights owner And they have their own relationship and that gets split up this stuff gets really complicated And for my experience working in music industry, this is really most of the headaches And and the idea here is that this is really not a good fit for on-chain Processing right this type of recursive bulk batch processing of many many lines of of statements and playbacks So we need a different approach and so what we've been working on with the experience of learning It's like how do we solve this splits problem is to actually do something where the top line revenue what the Participant and customer spends and who they own and what goes into a pool So this would be kind of like a black box in the music relative sense But hopefully much more transparent than that and based on that and we add this kind of on-chain action where we track What people are spending who they're spending with and where the top line is going and then we use Transaction history kind of like analyzing the blockchain and use off-chain computation and late technique like data science stuff aggregation for people are familiar with AI machine learning pipeline the Python ecosystem to like get data frames and analyze them and do Successive set of processing to create the proportional distribution, which then goes back on chain through a technical miracle payment proof Well, we tell a blockchain say these are how much you are allowed to pay up to this amount in this period And then you can just come as a participant to kind of pull the payment all to you and Pay the fees or the transactional fees to bring whatever's owed to you from this top line Let's say 2% or 4% into your wallet and you can spend it again So this combination of on-chain action off-chain Computes allow us to have a much more credible way of going back to people who have done royalty Processing as a living and say hey We actually took modern data science and combine it with on-chain history and that's much more credible than say Oh, we're gonna do everything through this single threaded Computer so so that's some of the things we're working on. We have actually released back in 2018 the first version of the miracle payment proof And now we're seeing project like mirror or even the UNISWA people using these kind of miracle payment proof to do airdrops Although so this are kind of like Reward for community, but you can imagine that these type of distribution are essentially royalty payments Based on who owns what and what proportion from a computation of point of view with data processing part of it is old So we are building a dashboard and a wallet called card pay to facilitate a lot of these mechanics The important thing is that if the users the customers and the creators do not pay each other through the crypto rail It's exceedingly difficult to distribute the royalty payment the cascading through the same thing So you have to kind of win the consumer payment way to get the money to flow this way through these protocols So that we can use the protocol to do the sophisticated Rewarding so we're working on that stuff like that. It's launching in about a month So I'm excited to have you guys play with it again is web 3 so it's a compatible with all any ethereum style wallet We are deploying in a public permission Permission list chain called x-dai chain and we aim to distribute to any EVM compatible Blockchain including the ones in the hyper ledger family But here's my last punchline Economic participation is new engagement So right now we think about social media engagement of likes and favorites and subscription But with these ability for that wallet that has your membership and also has the payment you start inverting some relationship You've seen that people are selling NFTs in exchange for Funding the next project kind of like using NFT as a type of Kickstarter Where the unique rare goods becomes the first thing that the super fans buy We believe there's a lot more Interesting way for fans and for people who are consuming or want to participate in community of creators to Economically participate in a more substantial way than they like and stuff like that So I think this ingredient of the economic stuff is what drawn us kind of out of our more Enterprise oriented thinking around how to help Businesses that are doing media and they say you know what kind of we got to figure out how this economic Energy is going to be channel and and that's why we spend the last year in the public blockchain space to really figure out What's going on so in summary web 3 composable UI extensible media format and the hosting is Desensory doesn't matter where it's host because the wallet contains information the NFT They have to have new utility different participant would come and there might be additional tokens on type of exchangeable assets as for the underlying rights and defy We need to process the top line so we can have a transparent payment payment split and I think that idea of Having media flow one way and having the value of flow back in the same force Maybe more amplify is going to be what will compel creators and move outside the little silos and boxes that the web 2 Platform containing them and actually get to this point So in summary we do a quite a bit of these Products first-party product like cut space, which is the no-co-tool and the payment app itself and the catalog for these media components Audio players and NFT modules and templates so that we can actually help people create and launch Transaction reward and then use that revenue and that energy to build more tools so we can complete this virtual cycle But we're not a product company. We're actually a technology Protocol non-profit foundation So we hope that as we build these product experiences and perfect what people can do in payment and building website and sharing code And maybe even forming new type of organization through membership that underlying we're building the design system So they can be reused like material design from Google allow people to compose the UI together an application framework as you go beyond just Blockchain application that you have the bridge existing system How do I look like some hosted service? Some of them are just to provide the developer on RAM some of them actually provide some useful daily service You know the bill and then multi-chain protocol so ability to tap into various type of ledger Certain things don't make sense in permissionless ledger that may make sense in an instantiation from a consortium Working together. Let's say media rights is a good example We see that more of it as a private blockchain implementation in a public one But it doesn't really matter. This is sitting underneath that abstraction of the application framework SDK So that's kind of my presentation thus far. I hope this was helpful I know it's a lot of material to cover But I'm hoping to answer any question that people have and elaborate on different parts of it So please feel free to unmute yourself. We'd like to jump forward with the first question Hey, I have a quick question Chris fantastic presentation. By the way, really Tremendous grasp of your content and beautiful visuals I have two questions one is how much of what you showed is actually built out and Ready and able to be used. I know you mentioned a launch in a month Are you doing beta testing already? Is there a place where we can get involved now or do we need to wait a month? What's the the position that that's in and then I have a question about interoperability Sure So we're starting with payment first even though there's not particular audience We've been working on the framework of how to do composable media, which is a hard problem independent of blockchain and DLT So that's just a problem I've been working on since the R&D day when I was working for make media company think about content Moderization that this is asset management That's a continuation of an open source version of that vision that I've been working on basically my entire career So we've been working on three versions of that that's what that will launch ended this year with the third version Which is a compiler approach So you can see that progress on our public github github.com slash card stack slash card stack All of our code around the framework is open source since the history of 2015. We've been working on how to do schema driven Packaging using JavaScript and the DOM as the primary way to bring that together So it's not like trying to force fit XML and single source publishing in the web That doesn't really want anything to do with it So we kind of adopt the JavaScript as our language so we can be more compatible with the type of experience designers and Developers that we see so we're building something pretty deep is schema driven a lot of the XSL T concept We're working on we were part of W3C the previous organization It's been flattened into things that JavaScript development Developer that knows Jason will have be comfortable with that's ongoing that has not stopped It's a hard problem to solve the protocol stuff was a bit easier once we realized that around Q4 of last year that the Layer 2 chains are able to work and then we have enough smart contract wallets and the wallet connect technology and your phone It's getting good enough. We went ahead and when I say let's build that economic engine a consumer payment stuff That's launching in a month. We just finished our audit internally for the smart contract So once we clean up a couple of Security vulnerability not really it's really a difference of opinions how to do the upgrade will contract Then we will we will open source that and we'll launch that in a main net basis Within the next two months and test that and beta with our community and obviously broader than that the hyperl logic community as well Would love to get you guys get some feedback It may look a little bit disconnected because we're just focusing on having good payment kind of we chat pay to experience So it's like emulating the consumer payment, but it's providing the rails To be able to do the movement of dollars through contracts and pools revenue pools so that we can go ahead and do the more Advanced split stuff that comes as a secondary aspects of that Does answer your question? Yes, the the concept of interoperability you interestingly said that you want to facilitate the movement of dollars Are are you facilitating the movement of specific? tokens You know, is that a theorem? No bitcoin. You know, how how are you? Facilitating this this movement. I know you very specifically mentioned the theory and wallets Yeah, but what what is your your level of interoperability that's enabled through your platform between different tokens and payment methods Yeah, so I'm a big believer that when you price something in a volatile currency is very very Unclear what your intent is if I say that my artwork is 0.5 E what does that mean? Does it mean one thousand dollars two thousand dollars or three thousand dollars, right? So and that is a very bad place of pricing things you should price something even if you want to pay for it using a volatile currency You should price it so the way we look at it is that there are many Existing currency in the permissionless world stablecoins like die USDC Which is of a stronger regulatory regime behind it and a backing of a really really smart team and from so-called coin base Making that happen. So what we do is we basically bridge those tokens into these kind of faster Media-oriented networks and then they're redeemable for the underlying currency on main net or another layer one chain So the interoperability we're actually creating digital twins of these tokens while we're on this kind of network When we're minting new tokens that can be when burned redeem for the actual stablecoin We do it Allow for payment in volatile currency So we announced integration with a Oracle provider called chain link about a month ago Well, we're using their feed which is used for trading But we're using their feed to provide mid market for an exchange rate with no markups So when you're paying a customer, you can just take the the exchange rates of USD to euro or ETH to USD or euro And use that to agree that that's the price you pay at that moment of the transaction of the subscription of the NFT purchase So I think bringing those like a component that exists in the open-loop banking like credit card and visa master card and just Replicating it with the tools that it has mature in the last year So actually it's only been a year that this stuff has really been available and we start working on this protocol Allows us to feel confident that we can be interoperable with what comes next But right now chaining Oracle dice stablecoin Existing wallet connect standard on any deployed EVM compatible chains Okay, fantastic and thank you for those details. I look forward to chatting with you more offline About some other aspects that I'm curious about personally. Thank you Thank you very much. We've got a series of questions coming in simultaneously on the chat and on YouTube The first one's very basic, which I'm sure will be of relevant to a lot of people Which is what do we do if we feel we have a project that's ready to collaborate with you guys? What's the best way to contact you and propose an idea? Uh, we've been using our discord as a way to allow new people We're interesting from the technology aspects of the project Now, obviously we are taking an approach that we are doing the first party app Basically eating our own dog food using our SDK using our protocol and building AAA experiences from a design point of view polish apps for approval Think of magic It's a lot to take on for a team to take on a wallet and a DAP framework and a payment protocol at the same time But I believe that if we don't do the integration and build a consumer phasing product It will be very difficult for us to come to a community member come to and say hey We can help you build your thing I can tell you that I've been having quite a few conversations of people coming to me Is I I want to have this new way of building this type of license NFT platform Could I use your tools and that's all really good? I people talk to me about building new types of development tools and That that then enables type of on on the fly development. That's also really interesting But I gotta say we don't have a lot of ability to actually support third party teams Our goal is to get our SDK Ready understand the use case. So I would love to have conversation understand use case So we can plot much more precisely What are the common set of developer or like, you know, third party features that we need to get ready So we can have people build on it starting 2022 And it's we want to do a lot of integration this year of our parts that were mentioned But but yeah, do reach out now it would be better for me and my team to know what people are planning to do earlier than later And Very much in the same spirit the question coming this time from youtube. Do you plan to have any hackathons? I think so I think the the hackathon is most likely to be ready to go is our card pay SDK Which is around the payments. There's also a lot of very interesting thing about integrating new types of Community structures. We're working on a commerce protocol like Shopify for web 3 Which allow for discounts and and and for different membership where there's a community token earning That would be an interesting thing to connect to the existing Ecosystem of people playing around with dows. I would love to have that But I would say for on the kind of spot contract protocol side. We're more ready to hackathons Perhaps as a continuation of the same logic. What about enticing developers? What are you doing to Make your work as interesting and alluring as possible to them I think it's very easy to go to the open source project read about it and not know what you can start I think part of the reason we're spending so much time and building basically final product That could be a silicon valley from the company after 18 months Is that you can look at the source code and see how we do it and figure out how you can add to it So I think I think the way we entice developers that don't worry about the product design We have that to a degree that you can start thinking about how it integrates how it can be augmented We are very very specific. I actually recorded a talk about a week ago about the different stk So if you have the web developer with the card stk, which is about building javascript and css That can be modular in that catalog and drag and drop Card pay stk is mostly about connecting to other protocols Maybe even things where you earn some revenue and you don't withdraw and you get a yield on that Those are all possible. We haven't done it yet But we will invite the community who have Interest in doing that type of stuff to connect that protocol and our pool and our automation to other things And finally the analytic stuff is also something that i'm exploring Especially people in the data science community Extremely salivating on the move away from proof of work from the ethereum blockchain, which has you know Closing cons but the thing about it is a lot of gpu of freeing up wouldn't be great to use those things for actual real Royal two computations. So so there's an opportunity also to discuss how developer who built algorithms that is being run on these analytic nodes using the same hardware that's deployed for ethereum mining Can actually get a cut for Helping do that computation and distributing reward parity. So these are all Kind of meta answer to your thing is that I believe developer building tools that is directly attributing to new actions and new behaviors Should get a tiny slice Of that value. So it's not all that different than you created in a song. You're getting a slice of You know, like a hit in the 70s. You're still getting royalty for writing that song I would like to see if developers can actually see this as their retirement account I built a tool that everybody's using an algorithm everybody's using and therefore i'm getting 0.001 of the dollar amount being Gone through the very very important. That's my royalty for building this essential utility This library that's been used and that I think is a long-term sustainable question of how do you get developer involved short of saying We'll give them lots of tokens and that that's that's that's disingenuous and non sustainable So I think this idea of a share of their economic around generated for the developer as computed by these analytic nodes is my kind of like general answer to that question And what about Sort of the flip side of the last question really what about Consumers and merchants. What do you plan to do to attract them? Yeah, so I think there's been a lot of uh Focus in crypto payment to make sure you can buy coffee or pizza. I think it's completely distracting There's a bunch of people who can't tip each other on twitter without using paypal and sharing the home address We're dealing with a much bigger problem in digital payments between created and their fans and the supporters Then we are actually dealing with not being able to use apple pay to buy a coffee, right? I think I think that's why our focus is almost entirely around this whole like influencer post influencer economy and how that becomes The the the new type of a real, you know, like virtual economy being bigger than digital In a physical real world walk to your corner store economy So that is our focus our focus is to understand what creative needs and how crypto doesn't become this kind of distractor But actually it becomes an enabler to the type of economic relationship you want to form That's our absolute focus. However, our sdk is designed so they can work very much like reach out paying alipay So we would certainly make sdk for point of sale developers Or or manufacturer to integrate it as easily as they do any ql code scanning thing So ql code is the main way we connect the wallet to adapt or it could also be a terminal on a coffee shop slightly more specific question again from youtube Which is i'm just scrolling down the the thread um One second. Oh, here we are could you please make fabric more stable or make it stable with lts? And add a few more sample projects so that freshers like me can get up and running Yes, that's that's a question for me I typed it. Oh, it's for you. Oh, you typed it I'm quoting you No, I think I think the important thing as a developer of Our product projects that sits on top of this ecosystem We are extremely reliant on the progress being made in organization Like in hyper ledger where these protocol these basic running run times and building blocks are secure stable and usable We are imagining use cases on top of these things But we absolutely rely on whether that is fabric or EVM based chains or or bezio or whatever might be it's all about the more solid those things the more we can climb higher We rely on those foundation and and I whoever said that yes I think the infrastructure has to get better. We can only build as tall as infrastructure is strong We've tried our best with what exists today But we'd love to have more things in the greenhouse come into being and say hey Did or decentralized entity that's let's use that as the foundation We're trying to build that experience orchestration. So we we want more parts and more material we can use underneath Once more from youtube one second How will you make sure that merchants provide the products that customers pay for? It's a little bit easier digitally. So in with digital goods, we're actually building an inventory system So if you say you're going to sell an NFT, I know that's a contrived example You have to consign your NFT to a contract and lose control of it So when you actually purchase and when the payment clears, we automatically fulfill by protocol like fulfilled by amazon We actually ship it out without the involvement For the from the merchant. So we thought about using protocol like zero x, which is another type of protocol That has a kind of like, you know ebay style. So like the other person will ship it once he closes We decided to do it at amazon fulfill by amazon style where you actually lose control as a merchant off your inventory Now when it comes to physical good, there's a lot a bunch of project working on how do you ensure payment through a combination of a wet wear and dry code material is one of them From veneer gupta And and so those are the protocol that will integrate to have them deal with the last mile problem Then sure that we say you bought a go bar. You actually have possession of the go bar both legally And on chain in a representational basis for now We're going to focus on goods that we can actually Treat online as tokens or assets that we can actually use our commerce protocol as the fulfillment aspects of it Again Shopify doesn't control the warehouse and can have plugins that control the warehouse But on chain is a bit easier to begin especially when media is the merch when you're actually using the media as the asset You're buying you could do some tricks and that's where we start with Quick question from youtube. Is this decentralized and will nodes be used? Um, so we deploy to existing networks. So we do not run our own blockchain. I don't think it's necessary Um, so we deploy to evm compatible blockchain right now I like new programming languages. Maybe we'll do one on clarin deploy on bitcoin too But right now all our codes are in in solidity So it's decentralized to the degree a smart contract deploy to a permission list network is decentralized To the degree that needs to be federated Let's say there's a Deployment to a private permission network then that would also be decentralized to the degree of that The most important thing about decentralization is that the code should be open and the state has to be shared So as long as there's a dlt and the software that is the protocol and the software that's the node is open source I believe is decentralized enough because anybody can write their own instance and use the protocol As as they see fit with that being said, I do believe there's a Value to cross honor each other. So for example, let's say there's a protocol to say Hey, these are the three or four stable coins that we should all just recognize as good enough to be interchangeable That would be a centralized governance function in a way in a decentralized protocol Where we will recognize all these things as they're the same So that there are some utility that we can provide to make it more easy to interact From and more safer to interact for users. So there will be some governance feature that would be progressively decentralized to say the least What plans do you have for advertising? I am a big believer that advertising make the rich richer and it will be fantastic if Advertising serves a redistribution function So one way to do advertising and this is something that I'm still exploring But it's a kind of philosophy I have is Pay for the advertising in a community token And then so that the person who wants to be front of line on the front of a top sponsor listing have to pay money Buy a token and you know, maybe raise his price And then what we do at the end of that advertising being run is burn the token Redistribute the value of what has been purchased by a powerful rich party as a ambient Denominate denomination reduction So everybody got a little piece of that. I think that's the right sustainable way Otherwise the advertising dollars keep getting to Mark Zuckerberg and then he gets more powerful and then what's the fun of that? So burn the advertising dollars But let them spend it Buy from the community right through a token raise the value of the network burn it redistribute the value Will cardstock integrate with cardano? Uh when they have smart contracts can this be used for supply chain tracking? Um, I don't know what that means, but I think I saw the threats in the thing I consider this uh, um, this whole endeavor of decentralized commerce or like decentralized workflow To be something that is about multi step processes So anytime you have multiple steps you need to take you want to change them to get a step one step two milestone one milestone two supply chain has elements of that Because i'm supplying goods from one port to another one I have to keep track of them So obviously we can put in the threat to make it happen But what's interesting about it even in the current version that we're going live in about a month Bridging of the token like taking something from main net Kind of bringing over the bridge making available and then splitting apart and giving to people prepaid balance like prepay card to use to buy Media right that is a digital supply chain. So it's a supply chain of tokens right token suppliers But supply chain nonetheless So I think what we can do and I think what we ought to do is I believe in finding the shape of the future solution for a particular category Like supply chain by looking for the digital native version of it and then back porting it to the existing world Versus injecting technology into the existing way creates work I think there's a lot to learn for about this kind of you know, real-time automation chat based threat based communication Automation bot I think that's really where supply chain is going so that if I were to say this is crazy I'm a creator. I want to sell something. Here's a new cup buy it Boom supply chain. I want someone to make the cup. I just promised a ship If that can be done through a thread, I think that's a new supply chain It's questions from me. You mentioned audios The blockchain music service a little early. Is that something you've been involved with? I've not been involved in that. We've been focusing mostly on the non-consumer facing side for a long time because we're building frameworks but I can tell you that What is very encouraging is we see a lot of project picking one of the silos or verticals of like text media Music digital art generative art ai and then running with it and building something I'm a bit worried that without a a protocol to bring the media back together We're just replacing the logo of web 2 on those silos with the logo of web 3. That will be kind of sad So I invite this project as we have this idea coming with that card SDK to wrap their players To wrap their creation tools in the javascript modules We use npm as our packaging standards or nothing new to javascript developer We it's not some proprietary zip file you need to do It's just an npm module that we want them to open source their player So that you can compose an audio audience player with another player that competes With a different network different acting model hard to convince the twitter and facebook to adopt that hopefully easier With with people in web 3 that's actually benefited from the composably underneath it to agree that they will have composable in the ui level I think this might be the final question. Which industries are showing the greatest interest so far desperate ones I think I think the the the the the nft market shows you that When there's new money people who need to new money comes. I don't think facebook is particularly Or looking at crypto is somehow anything big But I think you know, we're going to see a resurgence of things that we believe are not good models like journalism And subscription content all those things we've written off have a new shot start the same way We thought e-commerce were written off until amazon just grew like crazy So I think looking at things has been abandoned on their ways on the road and see if those things can come And I see a lot of ip licensing opportunity here And i'm hearing a lot of noise around that and people want that they want those relations of affinity that they know So I think there's going to be a really interesting mixture between creator brand licenses and new type of products Both digital And that coming to play so I would say the type of e-commerce second phase of e-commerce Is really where we see seeing the the greatest kind of a Chaos in a way control chaos, but I think that's going to bubble up as a real force to deal with because that's what people want to buy They don't want to buy another crappy iphone lightning cable, right? Whatever color it comes in Well on that Rather pessimistic note. Uh, thanks very much chris It's been a very rich talk as you can tell from the question So thank you equally to those people who attended and who pose those questions And with that, uh, I wish you a very good day Thank you all. Thanks. Thanks a lot I'll just add that if anybody wants to continue the discussion Please join the media and entertainment six mailing list and that's a great place to post additional questions and to share other thoughts and comments Absolutely Thanks again