 Hi there, thank you for joining. We'll get going in a minute or a minute or so. If you feel like it, why don't you let us know? Great, I see someone already did it without a prompting, without a prompt. But if anyone else wants to tell us where they're joining from, just so you know, I'm Kim Almond and I'm joining from Washington DC. And I'll tell you a little bit more about my role in the second. But thanks again for joining us. Pittsburgh, all right. Fort Lauderdale, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Arizona. All over, I love to see it. Thanks for joining. Thanks for joining everyone. We're just gonna give folks a little bit more time to join us. Thanks everybody. We'll get started in just a second. If you feel like it, throw where you're joining us from in the chat and we'll be with you in a second. So hi everyone. Welcome to our conversation on digital empowerment, safeguarding survivors of domestic violence, human trafficking and sexual assault. My name is Kim Almond. I'm with a company called Gen Digital and we have a product that we are representing here today called Norton that we partner with TechSoup and the National Network to End Domestic Violence. I'm actually pinch hitting for a great partner of ours at TechSoup called Jolie Veils. So I am delighted to have you join us for this crucial conversation that addresses the intersection of technology and the safety of survivors. In today's rapidly evolving digital landscape, it is imperative to explore innovative ways to empower and protect these vulnerable groups. This conversation today aims to shed light on the challenges survivors face in the digital realm while fostering a discussion on the strategies and some of the tools that can enhance their digital security and resilience. We're privileged to have experts from the National Network to End Domestic Violence as well as some of my colleagues from Norton and to share their insights and make the conversation invaluable resource for understanding and addressing the digital dimensions of survivor support. A couple of technical housekeeping things. Here's how to engage today so that everyone can hear and participate. We want you to engage and share your thoughts in the chat. Ask your questions for the panelists using the Q&A tab located at the bottom of your screen. We will leave time at the end of the discussion to address any questions, but we've got a robust agenda. So if we don't, we'll make sure that we have mechanisms to get your questions answered. Close captioning is available. Turn it on with the CC button, the close caption button located in your Zoom menu. And now I'd like to turn it over to our panelists starting with Armin to talk to you and introduce themselves. And we'll go to Armin, then Jesse, then Aaron. Hello, everyone. My name is Armin Vasicek. I am part of Norton. More specifically, I work for Norton in the research branch. So I work on a variety of topics that concern society and how we use technology as a society, as well as finding new ways of helping people, helping to protect people. So the mission of Norton is to create solutions for people to take full advantage of the digital world safely, privately, and confidently. And for that, I have worked on solutions regarding phishing, scam protection, network and IoT security. I've pioneered some privacy and identity solutions. And most recently, I also worked on cyber hygiene that helps us to form, save, whichever habits. And my personal goal is to find new ways of how we can transition the solutions into the products and make them available for everyone to use. Thanks, Armin. Jesse? Hey, everybody. And thank you for showing up for this. My name is Jesse Lowell. I use either they, them or she, her pronouns. I am a technology safety specialist on the SafetyNet team, which is one of several teams at the National Network to End Domestic Violence. We work on issues related to tech safety and gender-based violence. I, one of the reasons that I'm on, that I'm the one on this panel is because I was the primary author of the Securing Devices and Accounts resource that we'll talk about later. I live in the Boston area before this job. I was an advocate in the housing programs at the network Lorette, which I see some of you are Boston area folks. So you might know that name. It's a domestic violence agency serving LGBTQ plus, polyamorous and BDSM community survivors. I have, I was previously an academic computer science while volunteering in the anti-gender-based violence world. I have a PhD in computer science and an international association of privacy professional certified information privacy technologist. And I also, before I had this job was consulting and freelancing on digital security, things as a side gig, which is how I got this job. I used to be the volunteer intelligence team lead for Operation Safe Escape, which is a volunteer group of tech professionals who provide direct tech safety services to survivors. So that's me. Thanks, Jesse. Erin. Thank you, Kim. And thanks, Jesse and Armin for being on this panel. I'm really looking forward to hearing from both of you on these important topics. My name is Erin Gallegos and I'm actually based in Prague, where I am a part of Jen's corporate responsibility team. So Jen being the company which has the consumer brands Norton, which we're representing and talking about today, as well as Avast and Avira and others you might be familiar with. And my role at Jen is leading our product donation program as well as the partnership with TechSoup, our EMEA philanthropy and employee engagement in our corporate responsibility programs. And so I'm delighted to be here today as part of my work with TechSoup and with NNEDV through that partnership with TechSoup where we've launched this innovative product donation program to try to bring some of our security products directly to victims and survivors of domestic violence. But doing that in such a way that it is through the services of organizations which are already addressing those communities and our competence to help them navigate the really challenging issues of tech abuse and stalkerware and the risks and vulnerabilities that they face there. So I am definitely not the expert that Armin and Jesse are you'll hear certainly more from them than from me but I'm very happy to be supporting this from the partnership and the CSR side. Thanks so much, Erin. So let's tap into the expertise we have here on the panel today and get to some questions. Let's start with Jesse and then Armin, I'm gonna kick it over to you after Jesse. But Armin, can you please explain, or Jesse I said start with, I'm sorry. Jesse, can you explain to us the importance of digital security with regard to safety and privacy of survivors of domestic violence? Absolutely, so the contemporary world as I suspect many of you know is very online very technology based. And so when we've done needs assessments well over 90% of providers, I don't remember the exact number off hand have mentioned, have said that they have dealt with cases that involve tech facilitated gender-based violence. Unfortunately, traditionally the tech world and the victim services world have been very compartmentalized from each other with, and I say this as somebody who has been in both extremely different cultures. And so that there's often been a real lack of collaboration and communication but it's so necessary for survivors because it's very common for an abuser to monitor a survivor using technology. Abusers may have access to survivors' passwords. They may use stalkerware or less comprehensive means to track them. There may be issues as simple as the survivor leaves but it's still on the same family plan for a phone and that can be used to track them. Meanwhile, survivors are getting services from agencies that may be hybrid and even if they're not, they probably use a fair amount of office technology whether that's storing their data, doing meetings with other social services by Zoom in order to advocate for the survivors they work with. Obviously during the pandemic there were a lot of remote services and so it, you know, there has to be security and confidentiality in those services as well and then you get complications like what if a shelter has a confidential location but its address somehow ends up on Google business or some other listing. Like we have a whole resource about that. Finally, survivors can use technology strategically. Like we have a very strong opinion at safety net that technology is not the enemy technology, it's a tool. It can be misused, it can be used strategically, it can be used for protection of survivors and providers' privacy and cybersecurity. It can be used by survivors to maintain their support networks because so often abusers isolate survivors. Technology can be used to overcome that or at least to mitigate it. It can be used by survivors who live in rural areas to access services that may not exist in their area and many, many more potential uses and so it has just become ever more important over the years for these worlds to be able to collaborate and to talk to each other, which is one reason I think this partnership is great. Thanks, Jesse, really important points you made. I think, now let's turn to Armin. If you wanna, from your perspective, Armin and from the perspective, I guess of what we see as Norton, can you talk about the importance of digital security with regard to the safety and privacy of survivors? I don't think. Sorry, I was a bit, yeah, yeah, definitely. So I can just reciprocate what Jesse just said. It's very much also how these as Norton as a digital security company see the world. So it's not technology by itself, technology is agnostic of the intention to tell you it can be used in many different ways. It can be used in good ways. It can help you to connect. It can help you to establish community and do things, but it also can be used for bad. And so these days, it's hard to live your life without using the technology. So no matter in what situation you are for getting to your job, for getting, for doing financing and stuff, you have to use technology. So you can't show the world and use technology. So you can't just reject technology as part of a situation, but you have to learn how to use it and how to live with it and how to use it to your advantage and prevent others from using it to your disadvantage. So that's the important thing. So internet, mobile technologies is kind of the most important technology that everyone can't stop using. And as much as we love our phone, mobile phone is a very complex technical thing. So as much as we love it and as much we make it part of our life, we have to create this awareness for ourselves how it can be used and how it can be abused, for example, so that we don't fall into this trap. So we as a society need to develop also a better understanding of how this world works. And information is always kind of the tool that I would recommend everyone in education to help themselves and help getting in control of what happens. So let me ask you to take that a step further. And then Jesse, I will ask you the same thing, which is how can you make, what are some of the ways that you can address online safety, stipulating that there isn't a one size fit all fits all for anybody. But what are some measures you can take for online safety and security that helps survivors of domestic violence or some that they may be able to take? Armin, I'm gonna ask you first. Oh, yes. So I'm trying to speak about, so we have a concept that we call a cyber hygiene. I think that's a very important concept this relates to forming a safe digital online habits. And this means in the world of security, we can do something to avoid that something bad happens. And this is very much what cyber hygiene associates do. We also have tools that we commercially produce as a company that help you prevent things from going on. But it starts all with the user and how you behave, what you do online, what actions you take. And some are better than others. For example, having a good password like Jesse said is kind of better for your digital hygiene than having like an unsafe password like password 123 or I don't know what people use. And for that purpose, having password managers, for example, that help you kind of keep track of this more safer or complex, but safer passwords might be a tool further down the road. So the research that Jesse came up with the securing devices and accounts is a very good guide in helping you getting a sense of what kind of measures everyone can take. And it's very much in line of our concepts of cyber hygiene. In our products, we try to build more and more into that. So also to help people, to educate people and help people form the safer digital habits. So this is kind of part of the core of what we're doing as a company in our products. That's great, thank you. And so Jesse, I'll ask you the same thing. What are your thoughts on measures for online safety and security for survivors? So that's a great question. And my thoughts, well, first of all, I wanna make a point that I always try to make in trainings and webinars, which is that I think a lot of providers, a lot of advocates, like everyone has their area of expertise and for many providers and advocates, they don't think of technology as being one of their areas of expertise. And so they tend to be intimidated when a survivor is experiencing tech-facilitated, gender-based violence. And the point I always try to make is that you don't have to be because as advocates, as providers, you know how to safety plan. You know how to look at a survivor's individual situation, their individual risk factors, the barriers that they might have in their lives to doing what, like someone who doesn't know this area that well might say they should do and then coming up with plans with them to help them navigate all these factors. And tech safety, tech safety is part of safety planning. It's useful to know a little bit about the tech and that's part of where we come in. But you already know how to safety plan. In terms of specific things that tend to come up a lot, it's often better to go for, to start by trying the low-hanging fruit, the things that are relatively easier rather than relatively harder. Some common ones that I think come up are abusers being able to access survivor's accounts and like the risks that that poses. And it may not be safe for them to just shut an abuser out of their accounts. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If it's not, how can they use technology to still be able to communicate securely with people? If it is, do they want help in shutting the abuser out of their accounts? Again, is there an issue with a family plan, a family phone plan that's such a common one with children, especially in co-parenting situations. There's a whole range of issues around children and survivors learning what some of the lost device finder items like pet finders and air tags and tiles, more or less what they look like and how and where to search for them because they might be placed in a child's clothing or gifts. Does the abuser have access to the children's devices? And if so, what can be done about that? So. I think Jesse froze. Well, let me, until Jesse, we get Jesse back. Oh, Jesse, you're back. Okay. You froze. Okay. I don't know where I got cut off but I was saying that I'm posing some of this as questions more than answers because these are the things that tend to come up a lot in technology safety planning. I think that good cyber hygiene is beneficial for everyone. I think that if there's children, there are child-friendly cyber security lessons online and it's an activity that survivor parents and their children can do together as a family like learn about cyber security and cyber hygiene. Passwords, one thing that comes up a lot in the U.S. but I think is less common in a lot of other countries because they have better data privacy laws is people appearing in the internet and online people search sites that are data brokers and like most adults in the U.S. if they haven't specifically opted out their home address, their past home addresses, their phone numbers, their email addresses are all available freely online and may indeed come up in Google searches and people don't know this. So I think that at least in the U.S., often one of the low-hanging fruit bits, especially if survivors have relocated away from their abuser is like protecting the new home address which can include addressing this issue of data brokers and how to remove yourself from them. That's a huge issue. I don't know, Armin, if you wanna add anything there from the Norton perspective, we see that quite a bit. Yeah, definitely. So this is a very, very important issue. How your data, the personal data that you leave out on the internet while interacting that might be collected without your consent or even without your knowledge. And for example, just public databases. In Norton, you refer to that as your digital footprint. So these are all the traces that you leave behind when you're online as part of just being online through the logs that being taken when you surf the web, the data that you enter into forms when you register for an account and so on. And taking control of that is really hard. This is a problem that we're trying to solve that we're working towards solving. So specifically, and we have a few products that are already working out in this direction, specifically this public database and also the dark web monitoring are synced that we are pursuing. So if you're interested in getting a sense of that, I think you can share it maybe later. We just came online or we should be able to come online very soon. It's like a tool on our homepage that helps you give a better understanding which is kind of free to use for everyone. And then of course, we make some offer for our products. But just to give you a sense of what baby is out there, this is often the very first, very important first step for people to create this awareness and to realize actually the amount of data and that's actually available. And then of course you can take steps to kind of reduce your digital footprint to talk or to write to these public data brokers to kind of get removed there. And I have to say this is unfortunately an era that's very hard. So Jesse spoke about the privacy regulation of other countries. So for example, in the European Union, we have the GDPR and this has this right to be forgotten. And this is right to be forgotten is unfortunately not aligned is how the internet works, the technology works because like you might have heard the saying, the internet never forgets. Once you share something, it's out there and it will be there forever and it's really, really hard to delete and keep track of. So this is where what we as human beings, the right to be forgotten that we actually is a need for us in the technology or not aligned. And kind of this needs to be resolved but this is also kind of a broader issue than what a company or a group or an organization can do. This is something that we as a society need to solve together. Thanks Armin. And I mean really important conversation that we're having here today and Jesse thinks, I know you've been putting some resources in the chat. Can you talk a little bit about the resource that you have on securing devices and accounts and what was the goal? What was the purpose of that document? And if you wanna speak to anything else that you put in the chat, I know there's a really helpful resources. I think I saw one on data brokers. So yeah, please go ahead. Yep, I've just been adding them as the topics that they're on come up in conversation. We actually have a whole survivor resources toolkit that the resource I'm about to talk about and also everything I've been linking to is part of. So the securing devices and accounts resource, that is something where, like I said, before I was the primary author and it was part of our partnership with Norton, with Jen. And the idea with this was that so many survivors and so many providers, like they don't necessarily know where to start, but also they may just have questions about a wide variety of tech topics because sometimes it's hard to assess what's going on or sometimes it just seems very complicated to secure accounts. And so this was meant to provide chunks of information. So it's got, if you click through to the PDF from the landing page that I think Andrew posted earlier, or yeah, that I think Andrew posted earlier, you can see that there's a table of contents with numerous different sections that are labeled by what type they are, like devices, consistent access to safer phones. And we kind of decided to divide it into two big chapters, one of which is if you're still living with the abusive person or in close contact and the other is if you are no longer living with or physically around the abusive person. And so there are, and then within those, the big topics are devices, accounts, and using the internet. And so it's meant to cover a whole wide range of topics at a level that people who do not have specialized expertise in tech, like whether that's survivors or providers, a level that makes, wording that makes sense that is not jargon heavy that is accessible. And when possible, it's also, because I see there's a comment in the chat about not having financial programs, not having financial resources for certain tools. That's really true. And so whenever possible in this resource and the resources in general, I try to discuss free options and ways to reduce costs. And then I might also talk about options that are more expensive because for people who are able to access them, able to get funding through a program, they can be really useful. But for the most part, these aren't tech tools. They're ways to use tech, ways to protect yourself with tech you already have, ways to protect yourself from misuse of tech by others with tech that you already have and making use of resources that may be free like a local library, for instance. So I'm really glad that Elizabeth brought up the financial accessibility issue. And in some ways, that's the heart of this webinar because the reason that we're having it is the donation program that is part of this partnership. Thanks so much, Jesse. And we will get to everybody's questions, I'm hoping. So please do keep them asking. And I think, yeah, and Nesan just put in the web in the chat that we will be talking more about the product donation at a later point, but Aaron, so from the Norton perspective, can you talk about the partnership with NEDV, the National Network to End Domestic Violence and the SafetyNED project. How does the Norton donation program through TechSoup fit within this framework? Yeah, absolutely Kim. I'd be happy to kind of provide a little bit of context around that. So Jen, through its earlier consumer blarens, including Norton has long supported organizations working to protect people from tech abuse. And the company was a founding member, for instance, of the Coalition of Stockerwear, several years ago. And now we have kind of expanded and really deepened our commitment to this issue with the partnership with NEDV. It's a three-year partnership, really focusing on helping to expand the resources that are available through the SafetyNet program, which existed before this partnership, but our support is helping to provide the resources for the development of the guide that Jesse has completed and for other resources as well. In addition, the SafetyNet team is working in-house with another NEDV team called Economic Justice, which is looking at the intersection between financial abuse and tech-facilitated abuse, because of course, once you start talking about online banking and all of online shopping and retirement accounts and savings accounts and all of these things that are the intersection of your financial stability, your identity, your privacy, the tech piece of this is, of course, really important in people's lives. And so those two teams are now able to come together a little bit more with some of the resources from Norton to develop resources that will help to educate and raise awareness about the intersections of those risks and vulnerabilities for these populations. And we're also helping to enable NEDV to continue partnering in advisory conversations where they are helping to talk about what it would take for tech companies and others in the tech community to minimize opportunities for tech abuse. So we can stop addressing this problem after it's happened and stop trying to tell people how to fix a problem that they've encountered but actually start to prevent it in other ways. And the donation program now with TechSoup is an idea that was a long time in the making. So we have a donation program with TechSoup specifically to provide our products to organizations, to nonprofit organizations to secure themselves and their work. But after looking into this issue and recognizing our commitment toward victims and survivors of domestic violence, we started speaking to TechSoup about whether there was a way to facilitate the donation of these products. So the Norton 360 and the Norton VPN to individuals. But we also recognized, we could just donate directly to individuals but actually this is a very vulnerable population facing circumstances where they need support and especially when we're talking about this technology they may not have access to the resources they may be intimidated by the technology itself and we wanted to really be able to provide these donations to individuals with a kind of complete wraparound set of services and resources. So we worked hard to be able to create a program where that donation is going through trusted, vetted organizations within the TechSoup community and also relying on NNEDV and the resources which they have developed over many years and their expertise in this community to make sure that we were delivering something to victims and survivors that is really useful, that really provides the services and also has the depth that they need to really gain the awareness of the issues that they're facing, the risks that they have and the support to be able to face those things head on and really know what problems they're encountering, what they can really fix with our products, what they need to fix with a more comprehensive safety plan, et cetera. Because we know that every situation is individual and we wanna make sure that we're part of a community offering services and not just one-off product donation which is not necessarily going to help in every situation, exactly the same way. That's great. Thanks, Erin. Jesse, I'm gonna go to you. And so in light of what Erin said and you heard about the Norton partnership which you obviously know about, how will equipping survivors' devices with products like Norton be beneficial to their online and digital safety and security? Do you think there are any limitations? What are some other security precautions and tools that must be used in addition to those offered by Norton? And then, Armin, I'm gonna go over to you for the follow-up on that. So, Jesse, please. Thanks, Kim. So I think that for one thing, the Norton tools can be really good for basic cyber hygiene. And a lot of abusers may not, they may not be technologically sophisticated themselves. Like they're not developing malware. They may not even know, they may not know how they would use it, how they could get it onto someone's phone but that doesn't make cyber hygiene irrelevant because for one thing, a lot of products that they can help guard against things like stalkerware that can be really invasive. Norton products can also help with like online data removal. I know that the Norton VPN was mentioned earlier and what a VPN does in simple terms is it's disguising the IP address that the approximate location of your devices when you use the internet. And so for somebody who has relocated, for instance, who doesn't want their abuser to find them, this can be very important because it means that if a company's data gets stolen, for instance, if the IP addresses of their users get stolen or if the abuser does something highly technological like impersonating a service provider's website, the IP address won't reveal where the survivor is. So all of these are just, they're really helpful services and products. Sadly, there's no product or service that is going to be the end all, be all that is going to solve the problem. And this goes back to what I said before about individualized safety planning and how tech safety planning is just part of safety planning. And so people are always going to need a wide variety of options that include, that include VPNs that include applications to help with cyber hygiene. But it may well go beyond, something may well go beyond that. Like if someone lives with their abuser and their abuser can see what they do on devices, then an antivirus program, like it's not gonna be that survivor's biggest concern, probably safety planning around using tech maybe. And this scenario is actually covered in the securing devices and accounts resource. So another thing I think that is worth mentioning is that survivors may not always be in control of all their tech safety even when they have relocated. They might be moving from shelter to shelter for a while. Like they might be at a homeless shelter. They're the victim service provider they're using might be in a building with security cameras and the victim service provider doesn't have control over how well the security camera data is protected. So this can, they may be staying with a friend and don't have ultimate control over how the friend's Wi-Fi network is set up. So these are the types of things that can come up. Also, very often domestic violence, sexual violence, it's not the only thing that's going on in a survivor's life. There may be elements of racism, homophobia, poverty in general, that are combining with the effects of gender-based violence and that introduce their own kinds of tech security concerns. Like, what if someone is gay and they're in a country where same-sex relationships are illegal and they're experiencing domestic violence? Like that introduces, what if they flee that country and are an asylum seeker that suddenly introduces a whole lot of other possible tech safety considerations. So it's, I mean, you know, I personally, like I'm Jewish and I have certainly experienced like anti-semitism that intersected with tech safety. I am part of the LGBTQ community and I have experienced homophobia, biphobia, transphobia that has intersected with tech safety. And so it's all part of like this big picture, a sort of like quilt of different patches, made of different patches for every survivor, a quilt to wrap around and provide help. Thanks, Jesse. That was really insightful. I think we're getting some good questions here in the chat. And I think, Armin, I think I'm gonna ask you in terms of the Norton technology that we were talking about or just other technology to help in general, there's a question about, does this work for mobile only? Many people have government phones and might not have all the tech to use on these phones. Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the question. So there is like, we have products for different applications, so like the different devices. So we have a product for mobile device, for your desktop or laptop computers. We have services that scan the internet online for your information, so different deployments scenarios. I think if it's a government phone, I don't know this term, so but often these phones, if you receive it from a company or from somebody else, if it's not like something that we buy in the off market, they are more restricted than other ones. So you might be restricted in the terms of the software that you can install there. So that might be true, but I can't give a very general answer to that because I don't know what the government phone feels. I can follow up on the government piece of that. I carried a government phone for many years and they government technology, they don't allow you to add technology. So it is something to think about, right? And something that's a consideration to talk to the tech people at the, wherever they work with the government about if there's an issue. So another question that I see is, are there specific and again, maybe Armin first, and then are there specific tools or applications that survivors can use to proactively monitor and manage their digital footprint that minimizes the risk of unwanted exposure? What should be considered when selecting such a resource? Yes, so we have monitoring tools like our LiveLog Identity Monitoring, the checks if your name is being used in certain scenarios, like I don't know, taking on a mortgage and whatever, so that's different ways of how this is monitored. You have other products that look at the public databases if your name appears there and then you get a warning or also on the dark web. So this is like the data that's being traded on the digital black market between data progress and where it wants to participate or advertise or so Armin said, I don't know who consumes all this data. So we also have access to this type of data and check if your credentials like your name or your address, the number, the vehicle, number plate stuff, if this appears there and then you get notifications that are becoming aware. Removing or reducing this footprint, this is kind of a bigger challenge. So we would also have products in that sense, like that's what we call, that's our reputation defender and this comes in different sizes. So on the higher end, it's a very expensive service because removing data is a very manual and labor intensive process. So we can offer that for free or something because it's a big effort of scrubbing the internet that's out there often, unfortunately. As I said earlier, this is kind of where I see one of the biggest drawbacks. Still, it's good to get a sense of how the data appears or how people who look for you might find out what they might find the value. So this is, and this is kind of a lower entry of the area, as I said, we use it for marketing purposes to get a sense of that without paying a whole lot of money. You can use the products to monitor this over time and get reports about this and that if you want to get into removal, then yeah, this is my response. Thanks, Armin. I think, Jesse, we also had another question and feel free to expand on what Armin just mentioned too, but is there any concern about data brokers which we had talked about before? Are there any particular services you recommend to remove that information that data brokers have or remove your information from data broker sites? So we, SafetyNet and NEDV, we don't specifically endorse products, among other things, because products can change and new products can come on the market. But in addition to what Armin already said about NortonZone products, some examples of products would include DeleteMe, which comes to mind just because it's the one that I use. And Nord's Incogni is another one. OneRep is an option that has some amount of trade-off with affordability and automation. We actually discuss a few in the data broker resource that I linked to earlier. And again, these are all just examples of products because they could go off the market. They could, something about their quality could change. So I'll always do your due diligence. One thing too about some of these products is that they have family plans, group plans, that kind of thing. And this can potentially make these products more affordable for survivors who don't have a lot of financial resources because, and it tends to be a little cheaper per person. And two, you can potentially get a few people together to have a group or family plan, combining their resources. Instead of it costing a certain amount, you get together with three other people and now it's a certain amount divided by four. So these do cost money is part of my point. There are ways to make them more affordable. And it's also possible to remove oneself from data brokers manually either as a comprehensive thing or being able to figure out quickly the ones that are most likely to have an impact on you and remove yourself from those. And I talk in detail about those free options, those free but somewhat labor intensive options in the data brokers resource. It's not technologically hard to do. You just use the company's websites. It just takes a while because there's a lot of them. And so there are several different options is what this comes down to. That's helpful. I realize we're getting a little close to the end of time. And I will leave a wrap up a few minutes, a brief few minutes for wrap up. But we are getting some more questions in the chat, which are really, I think, very interesting. And maybe this is for Aaron and Armand to tag team on. But in the situation where a survivor still resides with the abuser and the abuser is knowledgeable about tech and the abuser installs tracking apps to monitor activity on the survivor's mobile phone. Is this something that Norton 360 would help combat? And I'll go to Armand first. Yes. So if it's part of, for example, on the phone, well, if something like a spyware that we know have identified as a spyware would be installed and this would be like, this application would be detected on the laptop, for example, if it's the antivirus on the phone, depending if it's an Android phone or an iOS phone, level of access that we have to the operating system, we could detect it. So basically, the answer is yes. If somebody comes up and does a lot of effort and builds their own application or stuff that we haven't seen before, which is kind of very unlikely actually, not just for the metadata that would be held up. Typically, if people put together stuff in these kits or to buy it and we got a good coverage because it's like part of the thread landscape that we observe. And so whenever we can, we're going to detect. That's great. I don't know, Aaron, if you wanted to expand on that or even to talk about any additional products that Norton may have coming out to protect vulnerable groups. Just to, I think, maybe clarify, and Armin, please correct me, but the Norton 360 will detect that if the Norton is already on the phone, right? So the important thing is, or will it detect it if you add the Norton 360 once, you know, if the stalkerware is already there? I'll just... Yes, if you can observe it. And as I said, different operating system allow us a different level of access to see what else is on the phone. So in Android, we were able to see, for example, what the other applications are. And iOS is more restrictive. We don't show this to us. So we wouldn't detect it. But there is also kind of how this application gets on the phone. You can get it through the regular Apple Store or Play Store and movie. You wouldn't get such an application because they don't... They have policies that don't allow them and they have their own process of filtering out these applications from getting on the marketplaces. So you would need to install these applications most of the time through the backdoor, which is kind of a more technical level. The ability to do that is higher. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's higher and you need to get the application there. I mean, whatever one can check for themselves, just like a quick check is to see on the phone if there is a developer mode enabled or not. So if a developer mode is enabled, then this would enable people to actually install new software there without the Apple Store or the Play Store. So it's just a quick check that comes to mind right now. Yeah, I guess just to highlight that the Norton 360 and then also the standalone VPN, these can be part of the cyber hygiene that people should be trying to practice kind of all the time already in their lives and that they can contribute to alerting someone that something strange is going on on their phone or on their device that they may need to check into or that they may need to check out with someone who can help them figure out what's going on. Yeah, I would just add that. Thank you both. I think we'll head to final thoughts now. There is a question that was in the chat that I think is pretty meaty and deserves a really good answer that we don't have time for right now. So I will leave it to Nesan to work with the panelists to figure out how to get this answered. But what should organization and agencies take into consideration when creating a policy around tech safety? That would be a big question. I think we probably could have taken part of, you know, a big chunk of this time to discuss that. So we'll make sure that that gets an answer. I want to thank you all for participating today. I'm just going to give you a quick one minute for final thoughts before we sign off. Thank you to everyone who participated and sent questions and all of that today. But I'll start with Armin and then Aaron and then Jesse, I'll leave you with the last words. Armin, any final thoughts? Oh, yeah, sorry. Yes. Thank you very much everyone for participating. I think this is a great first step in creating this awareness and kind of getting into the mode of practicing cyber hygiene. One thing that's very important for me, it was raised in the last panel that I participated in. Financials should not be a barrier. We as a company are not about that, about this digital divide for the products of Norton. We also have like from our other brands like Agast they are kind of premium options. So the protection level is basically the same. It's just a different brand. And of course you can buy the premium product as well. But for basic security, I think things cover you well if you don't have the financial resources. So I would also recommend looking into those if you are looking for security solutions. So that being said, thank you very much. And I'll go to the next person. Thanks so much. Erin quickly. No, just thank you everyone for participating and also for sharing with us in the chat some of the issues that you're also facing and seeing in your communities. I think that's really important for us to know and just, you know, want to reiterate that these issues don't really know any demographic boundaries that there are people in, you know, in all of our communities facing circumstances and facing potentially these risks. And the more that we know and understand the services that are available in our communities that can help people with these challenges and help serve them, I think the better. So huge thanks to everybody, Armin and Kim and Jesse. And of course our colleagues at TechSoup for facilitating this conversation. Thank you all so much, Jesse. Take us home. Thank you. All right, I'll try to be brief since I know we're at time. Just thank you all for attending. We do provide. We meaning safety net at NADV. We do provide technical assistance around particular cases or tech safety issues that organizations are having trouble with or just want more information about. We have a lot of resources for organizations on our website. We do have a general informational listserv, the safety net info listserv that advertises things like upcoming trainings, which if you email me at J-Lo and NEDV.org, I will get you added to that. And also if you're interested in this, if you're interested in this stuff in general, we do have a webinar on encryption basics for programs coming up on two different dates and times next in December, which I am posting the two different registration links, one for the fifth and one for the 11th. In the chat, there are two to accommodate as many time zones as possible for an international audience. And I think it has the specific time info at the links. Thank you again for attending. Thank you everyone. Have a great rest of your day.