 I would say number one out of the gate is how incredibly hard traders are on themselves. You guys don't practice a lot of self-compassion and a lot of self-empathy. There is some sort of confusion for traders that being hard on yourself is going to get them to that pinnacle of success and I, this is controversial, will argue to my dying day that is not going to get you to the pinnacle and stay there. Welcome back to another episode of the After Hours podcast. Today we're very excited to have on guest Kim and Curtin. So Kim, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Awesome. So I want to start off with a very simple back-to-basics question. So how did you get started on the world of Wall Street? I was really helping my family and I was working in bookstores. I love books so I was in retail, which doesn't make a lot of money. So I had read in my bookstores, you know, sections I was responsible for, included the business section and I had read two books, Liar's Poker and Jim Hodger's book, Investment Biker. And those two books sort of gave me a heads up that if I needed to make some serious money, Wall Street was the place. So that's what drew me through it in the first place. Awesome. Awesome. And what got you to get into the world of psychology on Wall Street? I hired a coach myself. I was in one of the largest hedge funds in the world, one of the top 50 in the world. And I was certainly financially being compensated handsomely. I felt that a lot of my gifts were being utilized because it was a very strategic role. I was juggling quite a lot and I had to see, I was like playing seven chess games at a time. And I constantly had to see multiple steps ahead. However, there was a part of me that had been early, I had been inspired early in my life by Joe Campbell. And he talked about finding your bliss. And so on one hand, yeah, I like the money. Yeah, I like the strategy aspect. But there was this kind of like haunted feeling of that this wasn't the bliss. So I hired a coach and executive coach and had this transformational experience. And very shortly into the coach practice for myself, the experience, I really just had a spear in the chest moment of knowing this is the bliss me coaching people and facilitating with that coach was facilitating for me the empowerment. And it was just like, truly like a bolt of lightning that hit me as my own coaching journey began. Well, yeah, that's super cool. Maybe just for like some people who are watching this and they maybe like don't know about a trader psychologist or they don't really have a clue, could you maybe explain kind of the role that you're supposed to play in like a trader's life? Sure. You know, ultimately, coaching itself, I'm a coach and not a psychologist just for clarity's sake. And there are people who I will just speak of my own experience. I've had therapists, I've had the experience of what therapy feels like. When I experienced coaching, I found to be paradigm shifting. It's a very different approach. Part of what's unique about coaching is that it holds the client naturally creative, resourceful, and whole. And it also holds the client as not broken, that they have actually the solutions within themselves. So what coaching ultimately is for traders or for anybody who engages in it, it's allowing you to have acts. First of all, you're being listened to deeply without an agenda. Even the people that love us in our life, they have an agenda, right? They want us to be happy, but a coach is neutral. And they will hold the agenda that you come to the coaching with as the ultimate goal. So yes, sometimes to get those goals, guess what happens? You're going to have to crawl through mud under barbed wire while there is explosions happening above you. That's terrifying. But a coach, if they are worth their salt, they're going to call you forth and say, look, you want this end goal, that's what you're going to have to do. So don't give up now. Whereas a loved one may not be able to hold space for that because they're like, oh, they're wet. They're cold. They're unhappy. But a coach is going to be like too bad. Are we allowed to curse here? Oh, you're going to be too bad. Fuck that. You want gold? You're going to have to get through this. You know, obstacle course. And that when you have somebody see you as powerful, you live into that. You live into that. So I feel a coach ultimately is helping traders when I work with traders, especially like there's so many kind of like inner gremlins or inner saboteurs they're up against, right? And if they want to make it to the goals they set for themselves, they're going to have to find that grit within themselves because I'm not going to be there every day for their trading, but they have to get something accessible to them that is previously not being accessible for them to be anchored to that grit that is within them. It just has to get awakened. Yeah. Go ahead, Eric. I was just going to say, I really liked what you said about kind of like the agenda as far as family goes because a lot of the times when you get advice from family members, they're going to say like, oh, don't go into trading. Trading's risky or oh, don't do this. Trading is that. And as far as like your day to day job and like the clients that you kind of help coach and help see, what would you say the most like the most challenges are for them? You know, like your clients like maybe top three issues because I feel in trading like for the most part, generally everyone has the same kind of issues or at least in the same kind of ballpark, you know? So what do you think your top three issues that you would see would be or you can not only top three, it can be whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. But it has to specifically be three. If you can't do that, not accept it. I would say number one out of the gate is how incredibly hard traders are on themselves. You guys don't practice a lot of self-compassion and a lot of self-empathy incredibly, incredibly hard on yourselves. And I think in a lot of ways, there are, there is some sort of confusion for traders that being hard on yourself is going to get them to that pinnacle of success. And I, this is controversial, will argue to my day that is not going to get you to the pinnacle and stay there. You might be able to get to the top, but there is going to be an internal implosion if that's the way you operate, because it's coming from fear, scarcity and making yourself wrong. So I would say number one is if I had a magic wand to wave over traders to stop being so brutally hard on yourself. I get you might want to have more discipline. I get you might want to be more committed to the work ethic, but through beating the hell out of yourself isn't the way forward. So that's number one, but I'll just pause there and see what you're doing. I can totally relate to that because that's something I do with myself. I'm nonstop. That's something that my girlfriend tells me, my parents tell me, everyone tells me. And I don't know if it's, if that's just the type of people that trading the tracks or if trading turns you into that person, but I can totally relate to that. You've got to be a masochist to love this truly. I think there is a way, I think you're right, Alex, the concept of how people who are high achievers undoubtedly are drawn to this. But having worked now with high achievers for 17 years, I can tell you that there is a cost when you are tremendously hard on yourself there. That creates a big hole in the gas tank of you. And ultimately, who wants their gas tank constantly leaking on a road trip? Like you're going to have to stop more frequently. You're going to be depleted emotionally, physically, psychologically. It's not in your best interest. But here's the key. I don't want anybody listening to this, including you guys, to now beat yourselves up from being hard on yourselves, because that's the cycle. It's like a downward spiral. Just notice, wow, I'm really hard on myself. And here's another little, you know, favorite phrase that I like to give people is instead of asking why, why do I do that? I wonder why I'm so hard on myself. Take that word away and use the word what. I wonder what that's about. I wonder what is underneath that. Because when we all hear the word why, even just when talking to ourselves, just physically, if you guys are willing, tune into your body, like close your eyes just for a second. And I'm going to say to you, why did you do that? Now, just notice the contraction probably your body goes into. Maybe you want to put your arms across your chest. Maybe you want to protect yourself. Why? Because if you feel like you're being judged, right? So when we ask ourselves why, or someone else does, we start to justify, defend, and protect ourselves. That is not a place of curiosity. So if you replace why with the word what, then you start to say, I wonder what that's about. I wonder what this, you know, sense of being so hard on myself. I wonder what that's about. And maybe when it started, because there's probably a really good reason why though this thing started. But the only way you're going to get to the solution or clarity about that is if you meet yourself with some compassion and some empathy that it's there in the first place. All right. So before we go any further, and I start crying, what were your other two? Stay on this topic here, because something that I have a question about is we as humans are programmed with certain emotions through evolution that caused us to be able to act a certain way. For me, my evolutionary headache is that I feel greedy. And most of the mistakes that I make in my own personal training stem from the fact that a deep feeling of greed, it is a human emotion that all of us come with. Some of us handle it better than others. But for someone that, you know, struggles with whether it be greed, whether it be too emotional, these human emotions that have come through us over thousands and thousands of years of evolution to survive, right? We are greedy because the more we have, the longer we could survive. We are emotional because that helps us get some nurture or some comfort that we may be missing. So these human emotions that come to us on demand instinct, how do we combat that? Or how do we learn to either A, fight against that emotion of greed, or B, embrace it in a certain way that helps us get to where we want to go? Because that's something that I struggle with. And I know that other traders struggle with that. And for me, I mean, I've made a very good career out of this and I'm very happy about it. But I still feel the need to push my size and my trading due to greed. So if it's okay, I'm going to put a bit of a reframe on some of what you said, because I hear what you're talking about, but I want to reframe it for you to consider that greed is actually not what's driving you. Possibly what's driving you is a need for security. Now you could say to me, Pekim, I technically have security now. Correct. And there could still be this sense of not having enough security. And that could be because of some old previous experiences years ago, when you didn't have security and that perhaps wound hasn't healed yet. And so that sense of not having enough plagues you because it feels like it's still not enough. So I'm going to pause and check in with you. Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense. And maybe it goes back to the fact that when I started trading, I blew up accounts. I lost my security when I first started trading. Correct. So maybe that bullet in my chest when I first started blew up how many accounts. I don't even remember how many accounts is now still coming back to haunt me. And the question is, and yes, now let me pause and let me hear what you have to say. So the key then is really getting curious about that fear is still sort of it's the best explanation I've heard is that when we have an experience that's painful, trauma is a word that I feel today perhaps gets overused. So I'm careful to not call that trauma, although it could be for everybody. It's different. But when there's a wound, let's just call it a wounds, if nothing else, that is a hold that if it hasn't, you know, remember when we cut our knee, what would our mothers do or caretaker, they would pour peroxide over it. And it would sting like hell, but it would heal and get the pus out. Very few of us when we have a wound today emotional or otherwise do we do anything around the healing process. And so that stays within us similar to an earworm. Did you ever like hear a piece of a song as you get out of the car and then damn it, that song is with you all day. Why? Because the brain likes to have completion. And the earworm is constantly wanting to get to the end of that damn Britney Spears song. And yet it's not able to. And you know how you get rid of an earworm, you go listen to the song all the way to the end, and then it's gone. The same with those wounds, the same with those pains. So all those losses, Alex, that you potentially haven't let yourself heal from are still in there getting kind of tripped and tripped and tripped. Every time you say, Oh, I could get even more and that potentially gets that fear inside calmed down. And what I'm saying is that is just dealing with the surface to really heal it. We're going to have to go down into the basement on where it's scary, damp, wet and uncomfortable. And have you physically feel that worst case scenario that happened to begin with so that it can finally inside of you finish processing. Yeah, that's a very good point. That's a very good point. Since Alex didn't issue, I actually have one too, you know, that I would be willing to throw out. Okay, so like I've been transitioning a lot more into kind of like swing trading and stuff like that. And my problem is that I'm always too early, but the move actually fucking happens. That's my problem right now is that the stocks that gapped up last week, I was actually in the week before, but I just didn't have the fucking patience to hold them or whatever, you know, they went up a little bit and I was like, Oh, whatever, I'll just sell this. Obviously, I'm fucking wrong. And then boom, this week, I see fucking Alex, this is moving. I'm like, God damn it. I was fucking in that last week, you know. So I'm just wondering, like, how would you diagnose that type of problem? Well, the patience that you spoke to, this is, this is a different way of trading for you, right? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. So when did you start this new process? Probably like six months ago, I tried it. Okay. And is the patience the biggest part of the dilemma you're facing? I don't know if it's patience or I'm just getting into early. Yeah. So is that possibly it's not so much patience as much as the strategy is in fully formally? True. If you're getting in a week early, like five minutes or an hour early, is probably patience related. If it's a week early, that means possibly the new strategy isn't tight yet. Yeah. Which is actually actually that could be something as well, you know, because it's just, I always have this issue, like even in my like normal trading, like intraday, where like I've like made tons of money, you know, I've always had this issue of just getting in like a little bit too early, you know, and translating to my kind of other one, you know, well, let's not make it wrong. But again, these are the two words that I ask every client to please, you know, bring into the conversation, curiosity and neutrality. If you were looking at this like a scientist in a lab, you wouldn't have a judgment. You wouldn't be, you know, making the mold in the Petri dish wrong. You would just be like, huh, this seems to be happening this often. What are the variables? I'm kind of curious as that you've changed the strategy just six months ago. I'm kind of curious, like what's the motive that this has changed? What's the motive? Are you doing swing trading now for reasons that perhaps are you trying to get some needs met, as opposed to it's really serving what's happening in the market right now and of the strategies you could choose? You know, all of us, if we go back to that, you know, comment that Alex said at the start, this is the kind of most important piece that I'm trying to say to everybody here is we are not driven by our wants. We are driven by the needs that live below the wants. So at the surface it looks like impatience. At the surface it looks like greed, but ultimately those are just like kind of superficial words underneath that are basic human needs. Again, like see if maybe you know, what's the heart of why you change strategies? Are you able to kind of speak to that? Honestly, I think to me, I just had a bunch of friends just making a ton of money swinging, so I was like, fuck, I'm going to try this too then, you know, like kind of like normal trading, you know? Totally. So it sounds like greed for me too, even though greed is the superficial word, it comes down to that for me too. Well, let's just... That probably just indicates that it's the top and it's time for everybody to sell once Harry gets on board. But let's just call it security because if we put the word greed on it, it's a judgment word, right? It's you making yourself wrong. So it's like, oh, this is possibly going to secure me more security. So that right there already tells us that perhaps there is a part of you that also doesn't feel that secure with whatever the other strategies are that you have. That's fine. And it could be that you aren't possibly staying very true to your strategies currently because it could be that you are more motivated by the security than you are the accuracy of that strategy. Sure. Perfect. Thank you. You're welcome. Why are humans so stubborn? Why are we so stubborn to say, you know what, I think the stock is going to go up. I think the stock is going to go down. Fuck it. I'm going to hold and then the inverse happens, right? So what causes that stubbornness that need to feel right? Because most of our culture and even our families that we grew up and shamed us when we were wrong, right? Very infrequently do we get acknowledged for our mistakes without being made to feel ashamed for them, right? We are the culture, Madison Avenue, when we compare ourselves to other people, what do we compare ourselves to? Oh, look at him. He's so fit. He's got a six pad. Oh, look at her. She's so beautiful, even though she's older. Like it's like perfection is constantly put in front of us as the ideal. And anything less than that, we're made to feel like we're not as good. We're not good enough, smart enough, you know, lovable enough. We all are in need of love and belonging. And we're all been told just because of this world that we're brought up in, that we, unless we do certain things to earn our love and belonging and our worthiness, then we're never going to be truly accepted. That is fundamentally terrifying to all of us, because we all know as human beings, we're not going to get too far without a tribe. We need a tribe. That goes back to the days of cavemen. We were going to be too in danger if we didn't have a tribe. So when we are feeling like we have our humanity with the mistakes that every human makes, then we feel like, oh my God, me being human with this misinformation might actually mean I don't get to have that most important quality of any life to experience love and belonging. So I don't see it as like something's wrong with us. The stubbornness is what's kept our assets alive. But we're just misinformed about what is happening. We all need love and belonging, but our worthiness can't be earned. And most of our cultures and even dare I say, world religions have made us think we have to earn our worthiness. And we don't. It's a birthright. And there's nothing we can ever do to unearn our worthiness. Let's say we have somebody that's stubborn like that, which is I think all three of us talking to you right now. Pretty much a lot of people. What kind of scenarios have you witnessed and what steps do you think the people that surround those stubborn individuals should take to kind of read that culture of love and empathy? What should people do in order to change that pace? I'll say that it all starts internally with ourselves. It isn't about other people. It's about us. What is the relationship we have with ourselves? It is the most critical, most important relationship we will ever have. There is nobody who's going to be with us when we were born. And there when we go out that ourselves, I would get very curious about is that relationship you have with yourself solid? And if it isn't start to get curious about how to redesign that relationship with yourself. If you are going around judging everything you ever do, if you're constantly making yourself wrong, if you're constantly having your inner critic or inner saboteur driving your bus, then you're going to have to get that one out of the driver's seat and you get behind the wheel of the bus. So first it starts with yourself and learning how to practice empathy. All of my coaching is informed by what I call my five practices. Those are in my book, Transforming Wall Street, and they are undoubtedly used over and again in every coaching call. And I practice them every second of every day. These five practices have changed my life and they've changed the clients I've worked with for all these years. And one of those practices is self and other empathy, learning how to practice it. Plus, if you ever want to be a contribution to anybody else, if you don't practice self empathy, you are going to be really hard pressed to be able to extend it externally. So just like the oxygen mask on the plane, we're told, even to parents, they're told you have to put the mask on yourself first before you even put it on somebody you love, because if you don't have oxygen, you're not going to be a sub function. And that's the same with needs. Most of us, if we're not getting our basic needs met, we are operating on empty. And we can't extend empathy to those around us, never mind, even ourselves. So it starts with self empathy. And that's what my universal needs list, you know, it was created by Marshall Rosenberg. He's the creator of a language called non-pilote communication. I started to study his work before I even became a coach, because it was so powerful. And that work just continues to empower me and people that I share it with. So you mentioned your book, Transforming Wall Street. I ordered it, planned to read it. I was really grabbed by the intro. And one of the things I wanted you to outline for us or kind of try to shed a little light on is the title of the book for those that want to read it. And we'll link it down in the description below. But it's called Transforming Wall Street, A Conscious Path for a New Future. What do you mean by a conscious path? What it means ultimately is that consciousness is simply self-awareness. And if we start with ourselves, right, my favorite quote in the book right at the start is from Rumi. And it says, yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I'm wise, so I'm changing myself, right? So consciousness to me is not about the external. It's about the internal. If we each individually become more conscious, if each of us individually become more self-aware, that opens up a whole field of possibility that previously wasn't available to us. And that's what I see is what creates that new path. The new path for you individually, whoever's listening to this, and the new path for finance, right, for Wall Street, for every trader. Imagine if we had traders who are operating from a place of consciousness, as opposed to these words we've thrown around today, greed or, you know, fear or, you know, comparison. Like, trading would be a very different landscape, so would the markets. But the point is, how do you just start with where you are? I ask myself every day, and I've been doing this work for myself for a long time on myself, that where can I bring more consciousness to whatever it is I'm in the middle of doing? Where can I bring more self-awareness? Am I being triggered? Do I have my old wounds being poked right now? And then I don't get judgy on myself. I just try to pause and have some empathy and feel like, oh yeah, I got really triggered by that thing so-and-so said. Okay, that just tells me I have some more healing to do. Is there certain traits that you've seen, whether it be personality or emotional, that has led to you seeing a trader performing more optimally than another? For example, they always say that the best traders are the most humbled because they have been humbled from the market and learned. So I'm curious for you, Kim, is there a certain type of something that someone needs as a trader to be able to get to that high performing 7, 8, 9, 10-figure level? I think you definitely hit the nail on the head with the concept of those who are humble. Part of what comes with that humility is, look, it's sort of this razor's edge because you have to have tremendous confidence and yet you can't let it turn into hubris. So ultimately, I think part of the culture's interpretation of humility is like, you know, somebody who's just like, oh, I'm not worthy. I don't think that's true humility. I think what true humility is, is a willingness to be able to be with your humanity without judgment. You're like, yeah, I'm human. I have flaws. I'm always going to have them, but I'm not going to let that distract me from that high achievement that I feel I am striving towards. So I would say it's a razor's edge balancing of this incredible confidence, determination, perseverance, and humility. And the other thing I'd like to add there is a practice of gratitude, a practice of being able to notice all that you currently do have. That opens up again the vista of possibility when you're grateful for what you have right now and not being always in the future of what is to come, but what is current right now, those qualities. That's a really good point because for me, when I was trading at my most optimal is always when I felt like I didn't need money. Whenever I felt like I needed to make more money for my own insecurities and I would force my trades or get in larger than usual to combat that, I would find myself spiraling down. So I think that's a really good point of just being appreciative of what you have because once you feel that level of, you know what, I'm thankful for my $100 a day. Not, why isn't it $500? I think that could get into a very toxic mindset because that has happened to me. I've made a lot of money. I've lost a lot of money and every single time that I make $5,000. I'm like, why isn't it fucking $25,000? I make $100,000. Why is it not $200,000? I make $300,000. Why isn't that fucking half a million? But whatever I'm in that mindset of, hey, I just made $4,000 in 30 minutes and I do that every single day nonstop, no matter what. All of a sudden, I'm looking at, hey, I just made $100,000 in a month just being really happy. So I think that's something really important that a lot of people have to pay attention to is the fact of, if you are not grateful for that dollar that you make, I guarantee you, you will not be grateful for the $10 that you make. It's a- I'm grateful that you get to trade. I'm grateful that you have more than one monitor. I'm grateful that somewhere the rent's being paid, even if it's somebody else in your family that's paying it. I'm grateful that you have your two arms and two legs if you're lucky enough to have them. The gratitude list when you start to go really deep is just, you're just like, oh my God, I'm a walking miracle. Everything right now is a walking miracle and talking to a miracle and that is just incredible. I guess it's just insecurity because that's what happens all the time is like, you never really, I never, well, me, I'm speaking for myself, I know everyone's different, but I never really stop and smell the roses. I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I went to a concert and it's a concert that I've been wanting to go for a really long time. It's one of my favorite artists. I got front-row seats. I got an Uber Black on the way there, on the way back. I got a nice dinner and the entire night maybe cost me probably with everything set on less than $5,000. I was like, God damn, I'm able to do my favorite thing with my favorite person, being really happy the entire time and I clocked that in in my head and say, you know what? This was probably one of the best days I had and it cost me less than $5,000, but here I am trading and trading and trading and trading, making $25, $30, $50, but $50 is not enough. $50 is not enough for the best day I just had is $5,000 and that number may be different for someone else. Maybe what they're doing is $100, $200, but my best day yesterday was a $5,000 day with my girlfriend. When I was able to clock that into my head and say, you know what? You just had a really good day for $5,000. Why are you so ungrateful for $50,000? It started to rewire my brain in the right way that says, you know what? I have to start being more grateful for what I have. In the past, I would say, all right, I'm waking up in the morning. Who cares? It's whatever, but like, reality is like that matters too. That matters too. And because I'm taking that for granted, you know, God forbid, I don't want to learn the hard way as to what it's like to wake up and be healthy, but stuff like that, those little scenarios of spending money and clocking it in for me. That's consciousness, Alex. That's consciousness. I'm surprised you found two front row tickets to Taylor Swift for $5,000. Even I can't afford Taylor Swift. But that's what she did. She'll hear this podcast and send you some free tickets. Hey, I would go immediately. Those are $20,000 tickets. I'm flipping those. I'm a trader. I got to make my money some out. But I would go. But gratitude is a practice. And we don't realize how much effort. It's not something most people do because they dismiss it. They think it's, oh, it's just nice words. But to actually practice gratitude, it takes effort. It takes energy. And the other thing too, and I'm going to bring this up because I actually brought this up and just sent the video to a client. Being grateful potentially also means discomfort. And let me explain why. I'll just, again, speak for myself. I come from a different kind of life. I've had some harrowing experiences in my life. And so I have a tendency to be hyper vigilant. I have a tendency to always kind of be looking over my shoulder when everything's going right. I start to get a little nervous because I'm like, ooh, what's the shoe that's going to drop that I don't prepare for? So joy and Bernie Brown talks about this sometimes is the most terrifying place we emotion we can feel because we're afraid that we're going to potentially be caught off guard. And so I think some of why it's hard for people to spend time in gratitude is because then they're potentially being with all the good stuff in their life. And they're like, wait a minute, if I'm not focused on the bad stuff, I might be taken by surprise. I don't want that to happen. Yeah, that happens to me too. I say, when the hell's the domino going to fall? What's going to happen? When am I going to something's going to happen? When's the trap? When's Pennywise going to come out of the sewer? Yeah, that's a dangerous mindset too, because if you're always expecting the bad or looking for the bad, the bad's going to find you. Yeah, or you're going to find it like just like, you know, these days you buy your red, you know, beetle, and all of a sudden there's red beetles everywhere because you're focused on it. So that's why it's so important to really begin to stretch this muscle of gratitude, because what happens is you start to find all the good stuff. And then okay, if you start to bump in, I bump in all the time to that vigilance within myself. Oh, I'm looking for what could go wrong. Why don't I focus on what could go right? Why don't I put some time and energy there? And that's actually a practice called appreciative inquiry, where it's something we use when I, you know, coach in organizations, I will go in and I will actually ask everybody to tell me what works here with this collective of people. What I would say, even to your trading, anybody listening to this, what do you do well? Focus for a month on everything you do well. Focus for a month on everything you do right in your trading that now sit every time. If you start to only focus on all the things you do well, what's remarkable is so much the stuff that doesn't go well, just drops by the wayside to see what happens to be good that overall. Yeah, I have two questions kind of like back to back. And I guess they can kind of like fall in hand with each other. Number one is how would you recommend traders deal with stress? Because stress is kind of like a big thing. And even if you say that you're not stressed, you probably still are a little bit under the surface, you know? So number one is stress people. The people would say they are not. They probably are. And number two would be how would you recommend a client manage burnout? Because burnout is kind of a big thing too, where you're just sometimes you're just burned out and you just as much as you want. What? I can piggyback right on that as what comes right good. So go ahead, Kim. As much as you want to show up, you're just burned out. You're just tired. So like how would you recommend stress and how would you recommend burnout? I think burnout ultimately comes from too much stress, right? And not enough breathers. So I would say you're probably, again, you don't want to make yourself wrong, beat yourself up. It's like kicking a man when he's down, right? But you want to say, huh, if I am, let's you start with the stress, right? Because if we can mitigate the stress and burnout hopefully doesn't happen. But if it's already happened, let's just start there. Square one, you have to admit it to yourself that it's not weakness. Like stress and burnout, there's nothing wrong with it. We live in a plugged in society. We're constantly being triggered. Our phone is constantly giving us alerts, whether it's text messages or it's social media. We're constantly plugged in. So I would say get comfortable with being disconnected for periods of time. I can understand if somebody's still having to trade. It probably can't be during the trading hours. But outside of that, there's a lot of places where you could probably not be plugged in. One of the guests I had on my podcast with while ago was a woman called Celeste Hadley, who wrote a book called Do Nothing. And she gives us crazy amount of stats that a brain, our cognitive ability to really do deep work, is maxed out at four hours a day. Think about that. Every time we are doing something heavily cognitive, after four hours, we are not giving it our best. We are going to be compromised in some way. So I would say first, find out, are you comfortable with doing nothing? If you aren't, if that triggers you, then get very curious about that. And see if you can start to find ways to be with emotionally, physically in your body, that nothingness. For some people, it's very hard. It really brings up stuff for them. So I would say that practice, I teach a practice called emotional non-resistance, which is allowing yourself to be with whatever comes up. A lot of the work that I do is called somatic work, which is basically taking that elevator metaphorically down from your head into your body. Stress lives in the body. Part of the challenge for traders is you're all an intellectual bunch. You're all super smart. So you have a tendency to step here in your head, but for stress to process and dissipate, it has to be felt. And you can't think your way out of your feelings. You have to feel your way out of your feelings. So that would mean you'd have to practice taking yourself out of your head into your body so that you can start to feel the stress. Maybe it shows up as tension. Maybe it shows up as like a sense of dread. Maybe it just shows up as a sense of utter exhaustion in the physicalness of you. I would get in tune to that. And then I would learn how to surf it. And that means physically feel it, not for an hour, but for like a minute or two. And just see, okay, I'm noticing a lot of tension in my chest. Isn't that fascinating? And then just let it be without trying to fix it or change it or move it. Because when we give our body our presence, it moves, it shifts. But what we usually do is push it down. I shouldn't be feeling this, or I don't want to be feeling this, or this isn't manly, or this is, you know, for once. Like all of that stuff takes us back into our head and takes us out of our body. That's for me, the best way stress is dealt with. It's a physical experience. We have to process it physically. The same with burnout. That's coming on the other side of this kind of experience where somebody probably hasn't given themselves any spaciousness to be feeling and processing the emotions that perhaps they've had for a really long time that are hard to be with. So for the last few months, things that speaking on that burnout piece, things have really ignited in my trading again. But it was brought on, which I think by a big move. I went from living in Texas for the last 10 years to all the way to a rural side of Colorado. And part of that was I, through 2020 and 2021, as we saw in the markets, that was the hottest bull market we have ever had. And I got burnout because every day it was a new opportunity, a new opportunity, a new opportunity. And to not sound greedy, it was every day I'm making more and more and more than I ever had in my entire career. And then 23 came and the end of 22. And I got really tired of the markets. I got really tired of everything that they were doing. And I talked to Alex and told Alex, I said, look, man, let's go out. And so I flew to New York and we went out, hung out. And while we were talking, I said, dude, I'm just, I'm toasted. I'm burnt. I said, I'm not motivated to trade anymore. I'm not motivated to really do anything anymore. And I started talking to him about this move to Colorado that we've been thinking about. And I said, you know what, man? I don't know. It just feels right. It feels right. It feels like the move I need to make. We went out here. We came out here. And it was just a breath of fresh air. You know, I was in Dallas, Texas, in the heart of it. And I mean, Alex was even in the thicker part of it in New York, like with COVID. When COVID happened and everything locked down, I went, I hate being in a city. And it made me realize I despise it. And if that were to ever happen again in my life, at any point, I was like, dude, I got to stop. I can't do this. I can't do this. And I started explaining this stuff. And Alex goes, dude, I've known you for a while and you need to go. He's like, everything you're telling me, you need to go. And so I came out here. And we got here in April. And for the last three months, I have done more outdoors, which is what I love. I've done more in trading, relaxing, patience-wise. And it was that big move of getting out of the condensed city, getting out of all that toxicity that everything I was around is what I hated, is what I grew to hate. It made me hate it so much. I had to get away from it. You went from New York, Tim. You went from New York all the way to Hawaii. You went from the hustle and bustle of the world to the people that don't even realize the sun is risen. And so they know the sun is risen because we're out on the ocean when it's rising. I'm up at like 4.30 in the morning so I can paddle at 5.15 and watch that sunrise. So you started in New York and I started in Texas. And that was where I grew everything. And I felt like I just had to get out of there because it just wasn't the best for me. And fortunately, I had people around me like Alex and James and my buddies that were able to kind of say, dude, this sounds like you need to go. And what was it that led you from New York all the way to Hawaii halfway across the world nearly? Well, first, can I just pause and just acknowledge you for seeing and noticing that you were being so compromised by the city and that you weren't kind of getting nourished by the environment? I mean, I think COVID did that for a lot of people. It turned the volume up on the things pop up were low grade tolerant. You were tolerating things. But once COVID came, I was like no more tolerating this bullshit life for short. And this is not working. I think what you did for yourself and I'm so happy to hear how much your friends here supported you because there's times when those decisions are so big and it's hard to do them and make that leap without the support. So kudos to you guys for supporting him because that was him saying, Hey, I'm not getting my needs met by being in the city. And I'm feeling called to a place that's more filled with nature. And thank God you listen to that because there are plenty who don't listen to that. And they go worse than where you were. And they just say, Hey, it's over for me. So good job you that you practice really good self care and self awareness, because that's what facilitated you making this change for yourself. And nature is the best, best, you know, bomb for all of us because it heals us, especially when you're technologically plugged in, and you're dealing constantly with like, you know, all your screens, you step outside and bam, everything goes away. You're like in the thick of the earth and the planet and nature. And it just heals us in a way that really buried little can. So I'm so happy who they are. And that is ultimately what drew me to Hawaii. I came here initially, because I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to house it. I was in, you know, Oregon, Brooklyn, I never thought I'd live anywhere, but New York City, I was totally snob, you know, New York City is the best place in the world. And I got to house it here. It's right my book, which was incredibly difficult. I needed to kind of hustle and bustle to focus on the book. I did a year and a half of research and did 90 interviews, which was way too much. I don't know what I was thinking. And I was like, huh, I got to put this all together. I need some calm, some quiet, and I need to save some money. So I was like, all right, I came for that first year and a half. And I went back to New York, but I was walking up the stairs in some way, apparently slower than usual, when his map walked past me. You had that Hawaii pace versus the New York pace. That's how I felt when, so we went, we have a buddy, Austin, a Loja trader who lives in Hawaii. And when we went to when we went to Philadelphia, all of us walking around are like, dude, come on, come on, you're way back. Steps behind us. And he's just like, and then I'm smiling at people on the subway. They're like crazy. Why is she smiling at me? What's the problem? I mean, somebody smiled at me on the subway 15 years ago, and I've been like, what's the problem? Like, it's just, you look at me, man, what you see? Like, I'm going back to New York actually in less than two weeks. I haven't been there in over five, six years. So I'm actually a little nervous. I'm like, oh, well, I have my New York armor ready to go. If I need it, I'm like, what if I lost my juju? Anyway, but this place just, you know, I started paddling out rigger paddling. It's in a six man canoe. I've had these encounters with spinner dolphins and whales that are like, they're like a movie unto themselves. And to be on that ocean with the stars and the moon, and then to watch that sun come up behind these two mountains, I'm on the big island, so I'm on a K, I'm on a low, while I lie, which is another mountain called Hollow Mountain. I mean, to be on that ocean, I have my own business. It's stressful, right? I'm an entrepreneur, like it's just always something. But once you're out there on that ocean, and you're in a canoe, and you're close to the water, and you deal with these sea creatures, it, it does a good job, Alex, if you go back to that concept of humility, like, who, that just humbles you right down to the bare bone. And then all of a sudden, a blue whale just comes up and swallowed you whole and you die. What a way to go. If that's how I go out, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. Jonah survived, I think I can too. Yeah. Did you hear about those two women who did get swallowed by a whale? In San Diego, right? Right? Yeah, dude, yeah. Yep. My luckily, our whale just came and one of the guys in my canoe who is Hawaiian, he started to do a chant. I've had him with him for years before. He'd never done this before, but he just started chanting unexpectedly. And this whale came swimming to our canoe. Like, it was a little puppy dog. And I was just like, I was scared to death. But I also was like, Oh my God, this is like the most magical thing I've ever had. Wow. So how has Hawaii changed your practice as a business? What, what, what did it do for you going from New York to Hawaii and how do you feel it's better for your clients? Or is it worse and you're just going back in the next two weeks to the house and you're going back because everybody's like, I hate this. She's too late back now. It's all about love. My dad lives there and I'm going to get, I'm very fortunate to be being taken on a beautiful tour of the New York Stock Exchange. So I'm, I'm looking forward to, I miss the city. Look, I love the city. I love the fine cuisine. I love art. I love live music. You know, I used to go see musicians like three nights a week in the little, the, you know, the bitter ends all those places. So Hawaii, I believe benefits my clients because what it benefits, the benefits for me is that it's helped me become more granted. It has helped me become more present to the moments as opposed to living in the future, living in the past. So I believe I'm a better coach because of it. I believe I'm healthier emotionally, spiritually. It's, I've always been a very spiritual person, but I think the, you know, the racing energy of New York and the fact that all the clients for the most part that I work with are in that when they come to me now because of this groundedness that Hawaii gives me facilitates for me, I believe I'm able to be that anchor that helps them connect to the anchor within themselves. So I do feel it's benefiting my way of showing up as a coach because it's benefited me as a human and how I show up. I'm not saying I got it all figured out, but every time, even my day, like you can see my office, this is my office, like here, I'll just lift up my laptop. This is Grand Central, my old stump in Grand Central. So like this whole office is kind of like my mini New York city. So there's times when, like, I can still be all caught up in it, right? And then I step outside and it's just like a very gentle velvet slap across the face to say, let's get back to what's real. Let's get back to just being in this moment. And fortunately for me, every time I drive just to my office, very short 10, 15 minute drive, I live on a beautiful mountain, overlooking the ocean, which I am so blessed to have that spot. I'm able to just get reconnected and re-grounded. And one of my very close friends here who is 90 going on 30, she's got more energy than I do. She's lived in Hawaii over 30 years. It seems to me that's the secret to life. Once you're in your depth bed, just go that direction. But she is like, she's just got so much them and vigor. So I'm friends with so many nine-year-olds here. My paddling coach, he's a rancher, Uncle Manning Vincent. He's a rancher, 92. And he's a paddler, paddling our Kauai Haika New Club, paddling, teaching kids how to paddle. Like he's, again, he works probably more than I do. And I work a lot. And yet I just said to her at one point when I first got here, because I was worried like, oh my God, I said, Phyllis, in the 30-plus years you've been here, do you ever get used to it? Like it's so gobsmackingly beautiful. I was like, do you ever get used to it? Because I was like, and she goes, not for one second, not for one day, Kim, in over 30 years. I said, thank God, if I ever get used to this gorgeousness, you better just knock me off the head. Because this is just like, how did I get here? I don't even know. So what would you recommend people do if they're in that stressful environment? Yeah. They're overstressed, they're burnt out. What would they do? You went from going all the way to New York to Hawaii. I went from going from Texas, hustle and bustle to Colorado, completely in the mountain air. I'm still trying to convince Alex to at least get to Florida. It's a long island. It's some ocean air. But here's the thing, honestly, I just want to be cognizant that there are probably listeners who are like, oh, easy for you, right? You were able to afford to move. There's some who can't move, but here's the thing. It's all internal. I'm sure there are people who live in Hawaii that internally have no peace. They're not even able to be present to it. And those with great practice skills probably can be in the middle of Times Square and have equanimity. I'm friends with a monk who actually belonged to a monastery in the east village of New York City, and they were practicing monks. So you can, you know, what's that for him saying, right? You can be in paradise and still be in hell. You can be in hell and still have paradise. It's the internal. So it isn't about, yes, I'm fortunate to live in Hawaii, but ultimately, Hawaii is available to everybody. The concept of peace is available to everybody because it's internal. And if internally you don't have that peace, it doesn't even matter where the hell you are. What matters is this internal dialogue. Is that in control of you, does it have you on a leash? And if it does, you have to get unhooked from it. And that's going to take some work and that's going to take some diligence. But if you can do that, then you're going to be able to feel like you're in Hawaii, no matter where the hell you live. So I would say first, just have empathy for yourself to begin with that you're perhaps so stressed and that you're feeling like, oh, how do you craft your life to not be in charge of you, but you are consciously choosing what that life looks like. We're so lucky now with technology and the ability to just transport ourselves with music and sound on our phones. Never mind those goggles now that are putting you into an alternate space. There's ways to do this, where you can be present. Where are your triggers? How are you not being nourished? Notice what your basic needs are. There's a great little clip of Huberman that my girlfriend actually kind of reduced and he talked about light, movement and connection. And these are things we need every single day. Connection sometimes gets kind of overlooked by traitors. Even communicating in a discord room is better than nothing but having a phone call with a human being, meeting even better in person with somebody, even if they're not your best friend. I just sometimes go to the coffee shop. I live by myself. I'm single. So there's times when I just need to have interaction with human beings. So I have a beautiful office here, but I'll go to the coffee shop sometimes and just hang out and talk to the old guy next to me and talk to the young 16-year-old kid who's telling a girl friend about her boyfriend problems. We need that connection with human beings. So make sure you're getting that every day. Awesome. Absolutely awesome. I'll just say last thing to close here. It's been phenomenal, truly phenomenal and eye-opening. And I am now convinced you are the windy roads of the new Wall Street. And I'll just say that, as you said, people say, easy for you, easy for you to make that shift. I can't really do that. And guys and gals that are listening to it, there's a million reasons to never do something, but it only takes one reason to do it if it makes you happier. So thank you, Kim. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me and letting me wax on so long. This is awesome. Thank you, Kim. Thank you so much. We'll see you in the next one.