 Hello, I'm going to wait for it to come up on on the twitches just to make sure because I got to which kind of background just, you know, doing the technical difficulties. Really digging like the whole Princess Leia scenario going on here. Thank you headphone speakers. Yeah, I think go ahead and mute that on my on. So, hey everybody, welcome to solid state. I'm Tim banks just go to the technical difficulties again and trying to keep, you know, the twitch stream in and then my my streaming at restream going at the same time. So there's a little little funky delay. Things are fun. But hey, welcome out to everybody. I'm glad everyone is here watching solid state just so that you know, so that we're all clear. This is an official CNC F Function. So as such, the code of conduct for all CNC functions is in effect. Please do not add anything to chat or questions that would be in violation of the code of conduct. Basically, please, please be respectful of your fellow participants and presenters Or else. So This is solid state. I'm Tim banks and joining me today. We have the wonderful and amazing Sydney Miller. Hi, everyone. So, Sydney, if you'll give me a second, I'm going to brag on you by reading your official bio. So, Sydney Miller talent acquisitions talent acquisitions lead for equinex metal and equinex is on a mission to remove barriers often encountered in a typical tech environment, a born disruptor. She is a passionate advocate. For giving a voice to the voiceless and promoting inclusivity in the workplace, particularly for female and female identifying candidates. She excels at matching the right human to the right role and has over and has over two decades of experience dedicated to building healthy engineering teams. From helping candidates negotiate compensation to correct leveling and accountability to enrich the candidate experience. Sydney is committed to paving a successful path forward for everyone in her downtime. She can often be found giving impromptu performances in the grocery store, especially when her three kiddos are starting to tangle up Tangle up in the bread aisle before joining equinex metal Sydney help Held principal talent positions at big tech companies such as GitHub, Apple and Google as well as several startups. Sydney is also I know to be a prolific gardener. And a and a collector of fine, fine beaded bracelets. Yes, I am. Hi. Hi, Sydney. Hi, Mr. Bay. How are you? So in the interest of full disclosure, Sydney has recruited me a couple of times to, to care to various companies she's worked at. And we finally got to work together at equinex metal for which I am exceedingly grateful. And she has always been amazing to me on my journey in both getting me into roles as well as advocating for myself, including to myself on several occasions. So, yeah. So, Sydney, I want you to tell me about when you were little Sydney, and you were kind of figuring out what you wanted to do. Oh, gosh, how far do we go back, Mr. Tim? I'm not going to disclose how many years you'd have to go back. I'll leave that on you. But let's start with when you first had ideas of what you wanted to do. Oh, good. Okay. So a couple of things. I did not end up thinking I would be in technology. I swore I was going to be a, I know, right? And that funny how it happens. They're like, how did you get into tech? And I'm like, well, it's a funny story. Let's go ahead and pull up a chair. It seems like a lot of us didn't have a clear path, and it sounds like a lot of folks now don't have that clear path, which is okay, because I think if you're meant to be in tech, you're going to fall into it. You're gravitating to it in an energy way, and we can get into that in a moment. But little baby Sydney, well, little baby Sydney at one point thought she was going to be a backup dancer for Janet Jackson. Truth, truth, truth, truth. Yes. And I am still to this day living it out in my kitchen, in my headphones. Okay. So I want to know specifically, not a backup dancer or anybody else, but specifically Janet Jackson. And if so, which album really did you want to do? Control. Control was what did it for me. I was like, that's happening. I'm going to do it. I'm going to push myself in class. We're going to get there. And now I just get to dance in the bread aisle for my kids when they act up, and they just totally are like, oh my God, they stop what they're doing. So that's what I thought I was going to do. Once upon a time, I also thought I was going to be in the sciences. I really wanted to be in my, not microcellular biology, but I went to the University of Arizona, Bear Down Wildcats, have to say it, sorry, huge alumni. And I wanted to be a biologist, and it did not work out well for me in the weed out class of biology 101 at University of Arizona. It was one of the hardest classes as kind of like, are you serious about sciences because the University of Arizona has a really, really amazing, you know, life sciences as well as computer sciences program. So oddly, I went into fashion merchandising and the business behind that. And I ended up working for corporate name and Marcus out of school in their assistant buying program, one of 12 that gets selected every year. Don't know how that happened. Interesting story. It was in 1997. And that was the year that the Wildcats won the entire NCAA basketball championship. And the next day, little Sydney had to interview for her big time job and was out until, you know, God knows what my time of the night celebrating her Wildcat win and ended up landing the job. So I was in, I was in the Couture handbags and leather goods in Dallas, Texas, not knowing much right out of college and then ended up falling into recruiting out of that because just, you know, the whole fashion thing just, it was great, but just not what I wanted to do. And then I ended up landing a gig at a consultancy and my first client was Sun Microsystems working on back end Java engineers. So here I am now. So I just want to ask, it's interesting. So you know, you have the fashion, you have the, the background and the interest in fashion. And I wondered because it has been said and I will not say that it's actually an accurate that a lot of people in tech dressed terribly. Have you seen or have you, have you seen ways that, especially in the recruiting aspect where for people for from, you know, either economically underprivileged or marginalized backgrounds, like the way they dress or the way how fashion, like how their fashion choices or anything like that has affected their, their, you know, their job, you know, like, whether where they get how they do an interviews or how the any kind of implicit bias against them or towards them. Or anything like that. Wow, that's, that's a really big question. And I love it. I do. I love it. So let's, let's think about this a couple different ways and unpack it. I just said unpack it. Oh, we pull that back a little bit. For my experience, I've always noticed that underrepresented folks. Dress up. They show up because they want to be seen. They want to be heard. They want to be evaluated in a kind of perfect. I showed up for this. Right. Whereas you see a lot of folks who are in hoodies and that, you know, baseball caps and whatnot. And look, I'm not going to sit here and say that there's one that's better than the other. It's just, you can see it just a difference in the way that people who are are from these underrepresented backgrounds, press shirts, ties, beautiful blazers, you know, all of these things. And then a lot of times I say, you know, hey, I'm in a t shirt. If you want to take your jacket off or your tie off, that's great. But I'll let you do, do you and what makes you feel comfortable. That is one primary thing that I've noticed over the last 20 years is a lot of underrepresented folks do show, they show, they show up in every aspect. And so, of course, I mean, I'm going to say bias is everywhere. You know, everybody's got to check it every day and every conversation they're in. So I mean, it would be hard for me to say that there isn't, right? Yeah. I guess I asked because, you know, I look at what, you know, kind of Silicon Valley casual is and it's, you know, hoodies, sleeves rolled up kind of t shirt jeans or whatever. Yeah, bands and then I know what kind of casual looks like among, you know, different communities of color and or just different regions outside of, you know, Silicon Valley. And so I wonder what the old, you know, the old culture fit catch. If that's ever, if you've ever seen that that play out. I don't know that it has. I just know if you have any experience on that because I've often wondered that myself. Yeah, I mean, it does come it has come up. Although folks like myself are like, oh, oh, that's not appropriate. You know, I'm sorry, but we're going to have to redirect this unless it can be objective. We can't discuss this. So it's really up to the ownership of those that are in the room to ensure that they hold accountability to objective feedback scenarios and the company itself. Right. So, um, yes, it's been brought up. It has, I mean, I've been here a long time. If I said, no, it doesn't exist. You guys would be like, is this a family show? By the way, it is a family show. It is a family show, right? CNCF. So like, just imagine you're at, at KubeCon. Okay. So I'll just try and make sure that nothing falls out as far as, you know, explicit language. It's hard for me. I mean, tech, right? So, so Sydney, you, your first client was Sun Microsystems. Yes. And, you know, That was, that was interesting because I had no clue what I was doing. I was like, and you do what? Tell me. And I swear that's where I developed my, my ability to listen because I had no clue what I was doing. Right? How does the little girl from Arizona end up in Texas working for, working with a big consultant company that works for Sun Microsystems? I don't know. So, you know what? It's just, I faked it till I made it. I just learned from the best and that was all of y'all. Everybody that I work for, you know, everybody that I work with, I, I am not a subject matter expert in technology. I'm not an engineer. I feel like I am one because I understand it, but I would never claim to be one. And so, so yeah, I just, I don't know. Does that even answer your question? It's Monday. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's the start. So, so tell me how did you get like from your first gig at Sun Microsystems? You talked about some skills you developed, but tell me how did you get from there from your first gig out of, you know, of a fashion kind of background to being, you know, the, the, the recruiting powerhouse that is Sydney Miller today? I'm kind. I listen and I understand what the needs are. I mean, it's, it's the only thing that I can equate it to is honestly, technology changes so rapidly. But how are you hearing? How are you working with individuals? How are you curating the human experience? Right? I'm about the human first. I can tell you all sorts of like lingo and this that the other thing and throw it at you and be like, great, thanks for that. I really didn't want to get regurgitated job description information. It's really about like, tell me about you. Like what, let's have coffee. Let's talk about each other. Let's make sure that like as a human being, this feels right to you. And just tell me, tell me, I always open with tell me what you need. Tell me what's different. Tell me what you know. Tell me what makes you excited. You know, what bubbles up for you when you start talking about technology. And I swear it's just by being meeting people where they are. And that could be anywhere, right? So I think I guess I want to I want to dig into that a little bit because I know I know a lot of people that can say like, yeah, I mean, I think I listen and I like to do these things. I like to be kind, but it's more than that with you, right? Because you don't just you're not kind of people, but you're a fierce advocate and you speak truth to power, right? And so I have a, you know, I'm not, I didn't know you when you worked at Sun Microsystems or Workforce on Microsystems well those years ago, but I have a feeling that maybe you didn't do that at that first job. Oh, no. No, it took me a long time to find my voice because I have been kicked down so far by so many egocentric people. And maybe maybe those experience really helped curate me to be like, you know, that fire that bubbles in you. And then how do you, you know, I had a lot of test kitchens, if you will, where, you know, you know me, I'm like, I'm breaking glass. I break glass everywhere, especially on behalf of underrepresented populations and those who have pay wage gap in equity, right? That's just, it's what I do. And it's people I know that I'm known for it. I think I had to fall on my face and get back up and then get punched in the face and then squashed and then find out, you know what, I'm actually mad about this stuff. This is important because if it's happening to me, it's happening to others. So how do I truly bring this up? If I'm in a position of privilege, hiring, being the first person, how do I open the door? How do I ensure that once I open the door, that they're safe, right? Yeah. So what if you, without getting like gory details or like that, but like we talked about some of the experiences you have. And the only reason I'm asking you to do this is because I want maybe some people that are also like seeing this like you're not alone. Like I've experienced this too. Like I understand how you go because I found that when you tell us that I found that if you tell someone, like, yeah, I have actually been through something like that. And so I can feel you on that. But sometimes it helps for people and now they're not alone on that. Oh, I've got some good ones. First and foremost, I will say that I actually have corporate PTSD on behalf of corporate tech. And I'm going out to say that this has been mostly at the hand of other females in positions of power. No offense to my ladies or those that identify, but it has been a hard time. And so, you know, being pushed down my work taken and delivered as their own and executive level leadership meetings, only taking, you know, taking the spotlight and not that I'm like, Hey, but, you know, let's share, let's collaborate, let's be cool, let's experience ego depth so we can all produce a wonderful environment as well as, you know, what we're here to do, right? Because through us and our actions only creates that environment. Gosh, I've been yelled at. I've been pushed. I've been emotionally scarred. I've been told that no one cares about my children. I've been told, yeah, I've been told that I'm too much, that I'm the bull in the China closet. That I say the things that shouldn't be said in meetings. Yeah. So now I stand in my power and say, not today, because I've gone through it. I've been there. And now I'm ready to be like, there's a lot of people behind me that need me to do. I just experienced that, but I have a position that I can actually influence and bring that through and show the reason why being an empathetic kind human being throughout the process, making sure that everyone is heard. That means different things for different people. So you have to make sure that you create that. So, um, I don't know, was that part of, do you want more? I've got more. No, I think that's, that's, that's a, I mean, it's gory enough. I think the details, but I guess. I mean, tell me there's nobody that resonates with that out there. You know, that that somebody's like, ooh, yeah, you know, I've been there. I've seen that, but can't talk about it. Have you seen it in those kinds of environments manifest differently between like large corporate tech and startups? It's, it's everywhere. I wish I could say it's different. You know, the honeymoon phase is, is a real thing. And then, you know, when are you like looking under the hood and ripping all those band-aids off? Right? It's hard to really do that. I will say that, um, I've seen it more so in other represented populations than others. Me being one, you know, I, I'm not only a female in tech, but I also hold a disability. So, um, you should, those are also things that are like, people just don't understand that no matter where you are, you could be battling something that no one has an idea about, you know, and that's why empathy and kindness is should be at the forefront of all this instead of like, you know, you said that one thing in a meeting and that might be, might be perceived a certain way. Oh yeah, I hope it did because then it makes people think and then, you know what, maybe something's wrong. Somebody's one person's feeling that in the room. Imagine how many others who don't feel like they can speak up because they don't have the position I'm in or the voice or they're farther up the table. Instead of being in the way back with like being in the cheap seats, right? So, um, yeah, it's, uh, yeah. I'm sorry. No, I'm good. Let's say one thing that I've noticed and that I've experienced myself with you and then other people who have worked with you in the past are the same thing is that you are, you're, you're like an unwavering advocate, right? Right. For, um, for inclusion, but not just in getting candidates in, but in through the whole process of interviewing, hiring through the process of negotiation for salaries and even after the fact. So, um, what are some of the roadblocks you've seen that you've had to overcome in that process? Um, and what are some of the things that are helpful, both maybe for those who would be hiring managers and those who would be candidates? Um, you know, that, you know, hiring managers, like, you know, what are ways that they can make sure they're, they're being inclusive and looking out for people that they hire, make sure they get the best people, um, with the best offers. And as, you know, maybe as candidates and sure that they are insisting on, you know, the highest standards for, for them when they, when they're looking at a place. Okay. So I'm going to need a, I'm going to need help in future with those questions. That's fine. Yeah. Um, so I think I'll, I'll start with, I think for hiring managers specifically and those who may be on interviewing teams. My biggest suggestion to you is double down in inclusion and hang with me here for a second. Okay. So when, when you're looking across your teams, hiring managers and those who are, you know, set out to build, grow anything. Look at your teams. Just look at them. Who's in there? What part of the world do they represent? What part of the ethos? What part of the landscape? What part of the world are they part of? Because I'll bet you one thing. If you look across your product line, you'll say, ooh, you know, I bet only people from Harvard grad school and Yale use this project or product or thing. You know, no offense to my higher education folks, but think about that for a minute. If you're requiring degrees, that's exclusion because what about our code camp folks or single moms doing Ada at night? What, who are these people? Who's missing? What about the scrappy people? What about those who are not of privilege? Lift them up. Understand the population. Go into your own community and start identifying with these populations because that is where you will start to know. This is instead of just sitting in a chair saying, oh, you know, here's the talent landscape that my recruiter came back with and said, you know, 48% of people in this designated geography is this. No. Blow it up. Represent the world. Make sure your voices are heard. Put people at the table that never would be there. It's all education. And until you educate yourself about the world, you're going to be, you're not going to be able to deliver a team that has a global viewpoint. Add that. Be the champion for it. And then it'll just bubble out because products get built when people are seen and heard and have a seat at the table. Code falls out. It really does. I've seen it. That's the first one I would say. And how, how have you seen, I guess, have you seen kind of when hiring managers do want to do that? Like, what are some of the roadblocks that you've seen them have to deal with or that you've had to deal with in trying to insist on these, on being inclusive? Other individuals that aren't in the same mindset. Those are the roadblocks. Recruiting team. Yes, I'm going to say it out loud again. They are at the forefront of your searches. They represent the company. And if they only go out and say, oh, you know, XYZ college is known for this specific machine learning technology or daddy, daddy, daddy, whatever. Recruiting needs to step up. I'm sure I can get a show of hands out there about, you know, recruiting. Let's be honest. So one of the questions that came in the chat, it's from Nicole. Hi, Nicole. The question is, do you have advice on a good strategy to push back on managers who hire mostly based on recommendations and people they've worked with at previous companies? Yes, I do. Ask them why. You can also talk about it in meetings and say, you know, hey, you know, have we thought about it, you know, a different way of hiring? Some people won't feel like they have a voice there. Because why would I, you know, everybody has a voice stand up for it. See something say something. That's how people are going to stop dead in their tracks. You could also go to, you know, your HR. But that's a whole nother story as well. But I would say go to your talent partner because you should be, you should have a clear line of communication. There should be someone there, but I would speak up. I would definitely speak up. Kind of bring it to the light, so to speak. You have to because if you're, you know, and again, that takes a lot of standing in your power. And it took me a long time to get here. But people don't know what they don't know because of all these things, right? Bias is one of them. So I've got a couple of questions for you on that thing. And I want to thank Nicole again for asking that question because oftentimes companies will incentivize employees to hire people they know from previous companies or people that they know by giving, you know, referral bonuses, right? Yeah. And that typically will have people, you know, go to their, their own network and try to find people that work for them. How have you, have you seen, I mean, I think it's, I think we can pretty much infer already from from people's experience and just by the very nature that maybe that does help lead to a less inclusive environment or at least, you know, you know, hiring your hiring the same groups of people, you know, over time. Have you seen a way to, to both have a referral bonus or any kind of referral incentive, but still be inclusive about that? Absolutely. And that, that responsibility relies with the hiring manager, the executives in the organization, and the talent organization, because anyone else doesn't really have the ability to kind of be in that initial talk about, I've got this job opening. Okay. We need to talk about, you know, I'm going to post it, then you talk about, okay, how many referrals are there? Great. You know that this is a fair and competitive process, correct? So you're going to have to review more than just employee referrals before we roll into interview stage. That gives the awareness and the availability into it. So make sure that that's not the first person going in, you know, there's there's so many different dynamics that we could like strategize out. However, the accountability is really to ensure that the team understands that it's not one and done. And unless it, and that's what the role of the talent partner and talent is supposed to do is ensure fair process for all. And if you do not have that in nailed down in that first call, then you have to have that call because that's how bias begets bias begets bias begets bias. So you end up maybe even not by by any actual intention to do so. You end up having anonymous environment just by incentivizing people to hire the buddies. They circumvent everything for speed. And it's like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, not on my watch. Right. Yeah. That's great in theory. You can spin and do what you need. But until it's fair and equitable. No dollars and are opening on club Miller day, you know, like, I'm sorry, but I got a whole you've got to hold the ground. You've got to hold that bar to inclusivity. And if you don't, you're part of the problem. Right. I'll give an example. Last year when in June when everything really came came forefront, right. At work. We had the opportunity to look across and say, you know what? Is this truly is this truly fair and equitable? So the organization as a whole with support of its and executives said, let's just take a moment. And let's make sure that when we review our pipelines into these roles that they are as fair and equitable equitable as possible. Now that is how you truly create an inclusive environment is by having things. Well, the world has changed. Okay. So what are you doing to make sure you understand what those changes are and what it means that impacts the environment that you're in, especially in tech. Right. So we as an organization said, we're not cool with just going through this. We have to look at it and we have to hold ourselves accountable. And we course corrected. And that meant a lot of different things. A lot of different things. Right. We started talking about different strategies and where we're going to put our dollars, right, for inclusion, because here's another thing I want to bring up and talk about out loud. Why are we not starting with the trans population first with inclusion, especially in tech? Why are we not supporting, you know, the most vulnerable, you know, African American trans women? Why are we not giving them the light? Stay with me for a second. You look at inclusion, parent plans. And again, just we're going to tilt, tilt its on its access a little bit because I don't know anything different to him. You know that, right? So why are we not starting with the most vulnerable populations and then work up and then pull everyone with it? Right. Start with the trans populations. Then go up disabilities, veterans, people of color than women. Because as we know, women, people of color, it depends on what your demographics are in your organization. But if you look at the spend and the cost, how much is in women, women identifying? Truly, truly needed. Look, I'm not here saying they don't need it. But what about those that are at the bottom? By the time the money is spent, oops, not the left. So where's my LGBTQ plus a and the whole thing? Why are we not focusing there? Tell me that those are great questions to start asking in meetings, you know, what are we doing for trans initiatives? What are we doing locally? How are we showing in support? Where are we putting dollars that we don't even that they're not contingent upon hire, you know, do the right thing. What's wrong with us? So the one thing that you brought up earlier, which I've asked companies in the past seems to be almost like a third rail. Talk to me or talk to us about some of the some of the arguments around geographic pay bands and their pay band is right. And as far as their effect on inclusivity. Oh, here we go. I get the whole peel 10% based off of where we are. But you know what? There are amazing engineers that live in the middle of Louisiana that are of underrepresented backgrounds that are just as strong as the person that sits in Cupertino, California. And they are deserving of that salary that's in Cupertino, California, because it's. There. I'm sorry. I know I'm probably going to get in a whole heap of trouble for saying this, but in engineering, it should be paid. Across. I get that, you know, let's talk about it. Money in Idaho that San Francisco money. I totally understand there could be a lot of things people are probably going a little, you know, bubbly here. But I have seen better or if not just as amazing as some of these folks who have come from advanced degrees have worked in all the fame companies and all this. And then we have somebody that is from a tier three, right, or a tier two and are doing the exact same. You talk to me about what does what those tears mean. Tears are basically like a percentage off of the highest, most expensive cities, San Francisco, New York, Connecticut, because everybody from New York goes to Connecticut, Virginia, Seattle. And then you basically could say 10% off of that is a tier two and 10% off that is three tier three. But that's historically the way it works. Now what you can do as an individual, by the way, the rest to the world, it's illegal in the United States, mostly. And now it is to for anybody to ask you how much you make nuggets, pearls, here we go, because you can ask the organization, what's the entry point and the exit point of the salary for the range and the level of this job. That's how you figure that out. So one, and I want to get back and I want to relate this to also to the, to the GOP because I'll see also sometimes that benefits vary by geographic location as well. And so, Dino asked, can you talk about efforts to make underrepresented folks feel included in regard to benefits. And the reason I say that is because, you know, some some areas, you know, like you have they'll have benefits that are geared toward people that live in the Bay Area or live in very urban centers. And those benefits are really not applicable to people that live in other areas. But or people like that have benefits, medical benefits, but they don't cover any kind of trans treatments, they don't cover any kind of neurodiversity treatments. So can you talk to us about some of the efforts around that you've seen or some of the efforts you would like to see made to be more inclusive about those benefits? I've got a great example. I've got a great example of what myself and an amazing trans engineer that you and I are both friends with had made in the benefits here at Equinix. And I had an individual that we hired and I'm close enough with them that they raised the flag and said, hey, this is not does not make me feel good. Like, in process, there was no dropdown for other. It was only male or female, right? So that was the first thing. And I said, you know what? Why don't you document all the things that are like, or like give you some sort of cause like like, you know, hairs stick up on the back of your neck. Man, that sucks. Right. This person documented every single piece of it. And I said, tell me how you feel. One was this is because it was true. Right. This is a trans person. We're not making room for this. The benefits didn't match what they needed as far as hormone replacement and therapies and some of the things that go along with that. Right. Equinix as a company and, and, you know, hi equinix, I hope that this is okay. I'm sure it is. I want to scream this from the rooftops and it's already in place. So, hey, here we go. This individual single handedly changed the benefits process and the way that we have people throw flow through our onboarding system. And 24 to 48 hours it was changed because it was given to me and I escalated it and they heard and they changed it. And these are some of the ways you just again just peel the bandaid off. Let's talk about the elephant in the room. Why are we not talking about the people that make up our teams, especially when they don't fit into. Like, you and a spouse, you plus one, you plus kids, you and family, you know, it's like the world doesn't look like that. There's not five options to what that is. Right. So, you out there have the opportunities to change this just by using your voice and not settling for what it is. I didn't. I just stuck my neck out and it changed. And it was the right thing to do. And it worked. And I'm very, very proud of Equinix as a company for listening and doing the right things. And I'm very, very proud of this individual that I call a very dear friend for bringing this to our attention. So, in the chat, Amy Toby asks, ask Sydney about the trans writers on healthcare. Trans writers. Yeah, the healthcare. Like any writers they would add on specifically for trans folks in healthcare benefits. Oh, Amy told me stump me because I just haven't had enough coffee yet. You mean like, in general, or here where we fit as far as Equinix is concerned. Because I am, I'm going to be honest. Humanity is true. I'm not catching that question. She's saying she's, she's asking about the addendum for trans coverage. Like if you can speak to it for Equinix model, that's great. Or if you can speak to it for, I guess I shouldn't ask you to speak to it for Equinix model because I don't know if you can represent them. But speak to it in relation to places where you've worked, some of the writers that they put on specifically to trans folks. And maybe some of the ones you would like to see. Well, hormone, hormone therapies to whatever that means. Because there is not a one straight shot like, oh, you get this certain amount of XYZ therapy. I think that there should be add ons for those who need surgical who are halfway through transition and get a job. They should be met where they are in benefits. Because why would a job tell you where you are in your own transformation? Now, the other way that, you know, the other things, and I'm sorry Miss Amy Toby, I know that I'm totally like on the ones that are for Equinix. But I know that those are two of the hottest, the hottest topics because so many companies do not see hormone replacement or actually reassignment surgeries as something that they curate. And I'm here to say, wake up, yo, it's time because the world doesn't revolve around historical regular benefits anymore. Right. I also think that there should be a larger case for mental and therapies when it comes to, I mean, just in general, just in general because mental health is so important. But especially for those who really need it, who are going through transition, who might need extra instead of just the eight that you get a year, you know, why isn't it unlimited? Why do you only get eight? So, I mean, we could dissect this a million different ways. And Amy, I feel so bad that I didn't do this justice for you. However, I will say that whatever it is, whatever it is asked for it. And if it's not covered, then you can say, all right, well, here's my bill. You're going to have to give me some sort of financial assistance with that. And if you need help negotiating that, I'm your gal. And I'll do it pro bono. I just, just as to add commentary, there's really no goddamn reason why that my vasectomy and ED image could be covered by insurance, right? No, they are. And that's what I'm saying. They are covered. But there's no fucking reason why those should be covered, right? But certainly that someone's transition or hormone treatments for whatever should not be covered. Why is it male and female? Why? What is that? Yeah, like, okay, so why do you get to dictate to me whether I get male benefits or female benefits? What about something in the middle? Like, again, I feel like, I feel like if you are employing a person, right, then you should cover the medical needs for that person. The person. The question of humanity. Yeah, you're not about humanity. Yeah, you're not covering medical needs for their gender, right? You're not covering medical needs. You are covering the medical needs for that person. If that person needs medical care, medical treatment for whatever it is, it should be covered regardless of their gender, gender presentation or anything like that. To cover some benefits for some folks to the nth degree, but some benefits for other folks is just not. I mean, it is not capital I inclusive in companies. And I feel like companies, especially these companies that make, that are basically printing money at this point can do a lot better. Yeah. I mean, challenge people. Seriously. The other thing, too, is we got to look at why aren't these benefits extended to your children? I know. I got, I got like a grip of those things. So like, yeah, you know, definitely need some of those extended. We do. Yeah. But here's something that you mentioned that I really think that needs to be underscored is that a lot of these folks, especially like, you know, people that are underrepresented to come from, you know, under privileged areas. The notion of pushing back against a company that is going to offer you more money than you've ever seen in your life in the first place. But then insisting on these things or not, or not just taking the very first like, oh, I got this offer. That's what we're going to take it and take it is because I'm just happy to get into this thing. Yeah. Do you make it safe for them? Right. Well, how do you make it to number one, how do you make it safe for them? And then how do you make them feel safe to push back and insist upon these benefits when, when, you know, or, or, or that getting that higher pay or the, or the pay that they deserve, regardless of their, their bands. But how do you make sure that they are able to successfully advocate for themselves without burning that bridge? Because I know that's a fear that I've had. I know it's a fear that a lot of other other representatives have as well. Yeah, because let's be honest. It's everybody is just happy to be at the table. Oh my gosh. I'm going to, I get to, I get to finally do Kubernetes work out in the wild. I can't, you know, I get to do this. I don't, I don't want to ask for extra things. When did we forget there are humans behind it? This is an ownership thing at the company level. Right. And I think that in, in your interviews, you understand what their inclusion model is and what they're doing when it comes to benefits, ask these questions, ask your talent partner. This, they should have that locked and loaded ready for you. And if they don't, well, I mean, So, so can I, can I infer at least that you're saying that it is the talent partner. They're kind of role responsibility to make the candidates kind of feel safe to do that and to let them know they can do that. Well, they're in control of your compensation and they're also in control of the interview process. They're the curator of that. So absolutely ask it because if you don't, and they don't know, then that's a signal too. Right. And that's, but you know, I understand like, how do I find my voice? How do I find my strength? How do I do that? You just use it and you just, I have to ask this question for me. Get out of your own way. Ask the question. It doesn't have to be Sidney Miller style, but it could be all about like, tell me about your inclusive benefits. And if they're like, oh, we've got great dental care. Well, that's not what I'm asking. How is the company, how does the company see inclusive benefits for those in underrepresented categories? And if they say, we're working on that or, you know, they better come up with a great example. Why they don't already have it in play. It's a fair question. It's a really fair question. It'll tell you everything. But also rely on your talent partner to help you say, you know, I really am curious about that. And I want to ask these questions in the interview. What do you think? How do you, so I am always been and always probably will be a staunch advocate of asking what the salary is in the very first, like in the very first recruiter call. Very first, very first one. And there are, you know, various tech CEOs or leadership, if you'll call them that, that will say like, well, you shouldn't ask that. And if a candidate asks about salary, then I don't want them because they're not really passionate about doing the job. What is, as you as a talent acquisition person, what is the take? Um, you know, maybe you can't figure out what is, what is your general understanding of the take on that? Whether, whether people should be advocating for their size, whether, whether it's okay to talk about money and whether or not that these leadership folks are actually certified be full of shit. Yeah. Accountability is hard, man. Right. Why don't tell me for a second that these leaders aren't in there, you know, taking their jobs. Well, what is a pay? You think any CEO is going to be like, Oh, this sounds like a great job. You know, this sounds like a great opportunity. I'm going to wait till the end to see how much they're going to pay me. Right. Ask. It's okay. It's legal. What are the parameters? The entry point and the exit point for the salary for the level of the job you are considering me. Don't talk yourself out of it. Don't back you up because I need this because it could just smell it a mile away. Oh, okay. And the, the not good ones because let's be honest, everybody out there and TV land, there's a lot of bad ones. Yes. There are really a lot of them that are just under ridiculous times, timeframes, dial in for dollars, send in 35,000 emails to you about, you know, hey, I've got this great business analyst job and your, your site reliability for observability. Like, did you even look at me? So don't don't disclose how much you make because you don't have to. But it is legal for you to ask what the parameters are. And if there's a squirm in the ethos, hold it accountable. I'll just be like, I need to know that before we move forward because I'm not going to waste my time because my time is precious. Right. And so is yours. And that's a real conversation to have however you, you say it for yourself. But that's, it's okay. And I cover that in my first conversation. Look, this is the level. This is the expectation. This is the role. I'm not going to regurgitate the job description down for you. But here's what you can expect as far as salary. Here's the base component. Here's the bonus component. Here's what we think about restricted stock units. Here's our benefits deck. Could you imagine, could you just imagine for a minute all of y'all out there. If you had all those things at the end of the call in your first call, you'd be like, I'm going to check this out. Right. This seems a little okay. And then the rest is up to y'all. Right. But at least you have your needs met before you even get out the gate. So then you don't have to worry about all that stuff. I do. Yeah. I like the notion that I'd never considered it really before. And I probably should have the notion of asking about the benefits, right? Because I know for me, right. If I'm not going to speak for that community, but I could imagine that if you're a trans person and you don't necessarily want to out yourself as being trans on the first call. Then asking about the trans benefits package or the trans writers could be, you know, problematic. Right. And so maybe it should be like if, if your benefits are inclusive, you don't have to ask about it. It's going to be in there already. Right. So if you ask about that and it's not in there, that should be kind of a red flag for you. You know, that that's not covered. Or they better have a great excuse why it's not in there. What is your advice to someone that's thinks maybe that they have been. I don't know if victim's right word, but, but certainly fall into maybe a less inclusive, less inclusive, you know, hiring practice, interview practice or whatever. Right. And then they think like, well, maybe I didn't get it because I wasn't, you know, either because I advocated for myself or because just the process wasn't inclusive. What should folks do? Ask a lot of questions. And if you don't get anywhere with the talent partner, then you escalate. And you can, you can find lots of content and detail for those that are in leadership positions and talent acquisition and HR. I mean, account like again, accountability is hard. And if you, you know, mistakes happen, natural mistakes happen, you know, on both sides, but it's holding the bar on inclusion and making sure that you don't get in that, that water. However, if it happens, there are ways for you to do it. And that's escalated up through. There's always an 800 number. You can always ask for HR. So Nicole, someone asked another question. And the question is, how would you advise RS, RSUs that are part of a benefit package and then RSUs are taken off the table after the hire. So I guess kind of like a bait and switch. I'd seriously consider not working there. Pretty good answer. I mean, but, I mean, but I wonder, because I know, I know, like, especially we've worked at, we've worked at both hand in a common place, small books out of Seattle, where the RSUs are your cop. Right. But how would you, what's your advice in general on folks that are dealing with like their, you know, whether stock or options are included as part of the benefit in lieu, right, of salary? Like, how do you, what's, what are your concerns about that? That's first as far as inclusivity where sometimes folks who do not come from more privileged backgrounds, the notion of waiting four years for their salary to be the market equivalent is, I mean, that's not going to help pay your loans right now. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And, and here's the hidden secret about RSUs. They're back loaded. So, you know, you have to stay four years to get the full vest. Think about that. Yeah. So, so think about where you are. Are you more cash motivated or are you long term? Right. Because there's two, there's a lot of different ways people view compensation. Right. If you need cash and you're motivated by liquid cash in your pocket, negotiate, tell them what your thresholds are. Say, I cannot have, I know lots of people that are like, I ain't moving until I can see this because of what I need to be sustainable as human as I see now. And that's all you have to say. And then negotiate up and say, you know, I'm great with what the allocation is of RSUs. But if you come back to me and want to load more RSUs in and you're a cash motivated person, ask for it in salary or ask for it in a sign on bonus. So, I'm fairly sure I understand what the motivation is to offer options or, you know, RSUs for smaller startups because, you know, they don't have to get cash out as an expenditure. They're options. Yeah. They can benefit their employees on exit. What is the benefit for large fang companies, like not large fang companies or other larger companies where they are trying to do the thing we're going to give you stock versus salary when you know they have the money? Well, it's a great addition. It really is. And if you have long term plans to stay, great. But it's also a way for the internal teams and the internal company to say, we might not hit that form mark for your best mark. So what is the reality of us layering on more and actually really having to pay it out? That's the that's the shush, the bad of RSUs. And those are real conversations that happen behind closed doors. So just know that if you select more and RSUs and do not plan to stay, you're going to be out that obviously. But it all comes down to tell the person you're talking to that, yes, you're motivated by RSUs or you're more weighted in cash. Now, the other thing I want to bring up and kind of circle back about benefits. Ensure that there's an 800 number to the provider on the deck or ask for the 800 number that is covered by HIPAA so you can call in and discuss all the things are my prescriptions paid. I have one that's $1,800 a month. And if it wasn't covered by insurance, you sure as you know what it would be negotiated into my salary because I'm not going to get a job where I might have to be risk risk of my my my prescription costs for it. These are real things. Yeah, so like that could be part of your negotiation. And if a company says no, I'm sorry, we can't cover that prescription cost. I mean, it just they should be able to help. Right. Because they don't offer certain benefits. But again, with it, I know I'm kind of all over the place because I'm excited. That's it's your glasses. That is that is a fantastic advice that I don't think a lot of people think about. Right. They don't know that they can do so. So I appreciate that. So many of us wait. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead, please. So many of y'all wait until the end and just assume that it's going to be part of the package. You could be out. There's hidden cost expenditures within benefits that are not and make sure it's apples to apples, especially for those that depend on you for your benefits, whatever family means to you. Right. Right. Make sure you check first call. We have a couple minutes left. You are in a room with the top 20 CEOs, the 20 the CEOs of the top 20. Tech companies out there and the ones that have power to change the tech culture. So to speak. You have exactly one minute to talk to them. What are you going to tell them? I show up with my people and let them speak has nothing to do with me. I bring you. I bring Amy Toby. I bring y'all. I bring a nice sampling of you and I say, listen, because this has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do about you. And until somebody represents you in that room, it's for nothing. I wouldn't say a damn word because it's not my place. It belongs to those who deserve to be there and deserve to be seen. So that's what I say. You better listen. Here's my friends. Right. I can't think of anything else. Sydney Miller has always been a staunch advocate and ally of mine and a great friend. One of the people that my life truly would not be anywhere. I can't imagine what it would be without her. So I'm. Me and many other, you know, marginalized folks, you know, people of color in other ways and other underrepresented minorities can work with you can. Well, we'll say the same and we talked, you know, so I appreciate everything that you've done for us. I appreciate that all that you continue to do. And I appreciate you coming on to solid state and talking to us a little bit about it. If you've been listening, we appreciate you coming out and listening. Please smash that subscribe button. Please follow cloud native TV on Twitter. You can follow me at Elchefe. You can follow Sydney at at Sydney Miller to the number two. Sydney. Is there anything else that you want to pitch anything you want to talk about real quick before before we sign off? I do. I want to just as much as I can just tell everyone. You deserve to be seen regardless of who you are and what you represent. And if you're not, your voice is loud. Use it. You have to because. Let's break some glass. I'm already doing it. Let's do more because. Whole excuse my French. I'm going to say one. Holy shit. We have such an opportunity right now. So stand up. Don't take no. Don't take no for an answer. Say in it. I don't use it. I appreciate you, Tim. Thanks for having me. And hi, everyone out there. I hope it's helpful. There's a lot of stuff in there that I think was very important to folks and we'll we'll tweet about we'll we'll cover some of that stuff that I think people need to hear. As always, you can come back and listen to this later on or watch us later on on cloud native TV. I am Tim Banks, and this was solid state. Bye everybody.