 Good morning and a very warm welcome to the second meeting of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee. Can I remind all members to please switch mobile phones off or to silent so as not to disturb the meeting? Our first item today is a decision on taking business in private. Members are invited to decide whether to take item 3, the consideration of the work programme in private. Are we all agreed? We will now move on to agenda item 2. It is a Scottish Government update. This morning, we are taking evidence from Angus Robertson, Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, on the Scottish Government's priorities relating to the remit of the committee. The Cabinet Secretary is joined by his officials, Donald Cameron, Deputy Director of Constitution and UK Relations Division, and Ewan Page, head of UK frameworks. I welcome Cabinet Secretary and his officials to the committee this morning. I would like to invite Mr Robertson to make an opening statement. Thank you very much, convener, and thanks for the opportunity to come to the committee so early in Parliament's deliberations. So early in my tenure as Cabinet Secretary, you might imagine I have a bit of experience of committees, particularly in another place, having served for 10 years on the European Scrutiny Committee in the House of Commons, among others. So I understand the importance of committees and I look forward to working with you collegially throughout this parliamentary term, both directly in the committee and in the chamber when, no doubt, you will be raising issues of interest throughout the term. In terms of an opening statement, convener, I observe that we are at the start of the sixth session of the Scottish Parliament. In 1998, people in Scotland voted overwhelmingly to set up this Parliament after years of Westminster Governments, which ignored their wishes and imposed unwelcome and damaging policies. Devolution has improved people's lives in Scotland and delivered Governments that they have chosen, at least for devolved policy areas like health and education. With their own Parliament, free personal care has been introduced, university tuition fees have been abolished and no one is now charged for prescriptions. The list could go on. The UK Government is now putting all of that at risk by taking back control once again of key devolved powers without consent from Scotland. Without consent of you, without the consent of the people of Scotland. Most notably, through the UK Internal Market Act imposed on Scotland despite an overwhelming rejection by stakeholders and the explicit refusal of consent from this Parliament. It's also doing so by using Brexit, a Brexit that the people of Scotland overwhelmingly rejected as an ill-disguised attempt to diminish the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Government and this Parliament. The committee takes up its responsibilities at a pivotal moment. Devolution is under systematic attack from a UK Government that is increasingly hostile to devolution in both word and deed, directly through legislation, like the UK Internal Market Act, which takes powers from Scottish ministers and Parliament and places it in the hands of UK ministers. Through direct UK Government spending and devolved matters in Scotland in a way that bypasses the Scottish Parliament, bypasses you and bypassing the democratically accountable ministers and is likely to have a profound and damaging effect on the devolved budget. Through legislation, either by a deliberately wide interpretation of what is reserved under the devolution settlements or by ignoring legislative consent decisions of this Parliament, a convention scrupulously observed by past UK Governments of various stripes since 1999, four times since the EU referendum alone. This isn't just happening in Scotland. The Welsh First Minister says that the UK Government is continuing to, and I quote Mark Drakeford, steal powers and steal money away from Wales. The Scottish Government will do all that we can to keep Scotland safe, protect the gains of devolution and our democratic rights. We remain committed to working with the UK Government and other devolved Governments in an equal partnership on common frameworks, on voluntary arrangements based on progress by agreement between equals, offering a model for future co-operation, but these arrangements can only work if all parties are prepared to respect devolution and proceed on the basis of equality and mutual respect. Sadly, there is little evidence that Westminster wants an equal partnership and has resorted instead to unilateral control. Make no mistake, the UK Internal Market Act is clear evidence of a UK Government committed to actively constraining and overriding decisions made by the Scottish Parliament without its consent. Delegated powers within the act mean that devolved policy choices can be brought within or excluded from the scope of the act's market access principles by UK ministers alone, with or without the agreement of this Parliament, with or without the agreement of you. All members of this committee and Parliament, irrespective of party, should be deeply concerned about this and oppose the damage being inflicted on devolution. I'm sorry to say that, faced with a UK Government determined to centralise power in Westminster, there is a limit to what can be done in mitigation. The outdated fixation on Westminster sovereignty allows any UK Government with a majority in the Commons to strip or override devolved powers without consent should it wish. Let us not forget that the current UK Prime Minister is on record as describing devolution as a disaster. This is a far cry from the devolution settlements agreed in 1999 and cannot offer a stable basis for equitable and productive relations between the Governments of these islands. This demonstrates why, as we recover from the pandemic and try to mitigate the wholly avoidable consequences of hard Brexit that we didn't vote for, the people in Scotland have the right to decide their own future. At the recent election, the Scottish Government was given a clear mandate to offer the people of Scotland a choice over their future once the Covid crisis has passed. It will then be up to the people of Scotland, not a Westminster Government, that they didn't vote for to decide how Scotland is governed. In conclusion, it's increasingly clear to me that the choice that the people of Scotland face is between a greatly diminished devolution settlement under constant threat from the unilateral actions of a hostile UK Government or as an independent country, part of the European Union and with a full range of powers needed to keep Scotland safe to recover from the social and economic damage of the pandemic and to flourish in a genuine partnership of equals with our friends across the rest of the United Kingdom. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Cabinet Secretary. I'm hoping that we can format our questions in a logical order this morning. Obviously we have a wide remit in the committee. So we're going to try and do constitution moving into Europe and external relations finishing with culture at the end of the session if that's helpful to know. Members could bear that mind when they're asking for supplementary questions. If I could just open and thank you Cabinet Secretary for your letter to the committee explaining the Government of permission position on a lot of these issues and in that letter that you sent the committee last week you state that there is on-going work to fully map out and understand the internal market act's impact and that that will take time for us to fully understand and fully grasp the implications of that. So I just wonder if you could say a little bit more about that work and whether it will be published and available to the committee for scrutiny. Well thank you very much, convener. I should say given your observation about the wide range of the committee it's probably unrealistic that you'll be able to cover all of the issues that you may have questions about within an hour. So I reiterate the point that I look forward to coming back in the meantime if you have questions that we can through letters inform the committee about any queries that you have. By way of an update on the status of the internal market act the act has been enforced since 1 January 2021 and Scottish Government officials are engaging on a factual basis without prejudice to ministers fundamental opposition to the act across a number of related fronts. The Scottish Government is seeing a wide range of impacts on policy and in public investment and the frameworks team can supply further detail on requests if you want more detail on that relating to examples of known and emerging risks to devolve decision making and on technical aspects of the act's operation. This is something that has been shared, the concerns of the Scottish Government with the UK Government but also we have been working in conjunction with colleagues in Wales and Northern Ireland. The views that I'm expressing here today and the Scottish Government is expressing are views which are shared by the Welsh Government and the Northern Irish Executive. This is going to be a really big issue throughout this Parliament and no doubt we'll be coming back to it again and again. I'm going to move to questions from members and get out first to invite Dr Allan. Thank you, convener, and welcome to the committee. You've mentioned some of the new constraints that are put upon this Parliament by legislation from the UK such as the Internal Market Act. Can I ask what you feel your options are in the Scottish Government to engage with, put the Scottish Government's view? I'm thinking of some of the inadequate mechanisms that exist at the moment such as joint ministerial committees. How do you intend to use those mechanisms to make your point? Thank you, Dr Allan. I could probably speak for the next hour about this subject alone. Let me start with my starting principle in relation to this question, which is, since I've taken up office and you may be interested to know more detail of this, I have been working very closely with colleagues in the UK Government and in the devolved administrations in Wales and also been speaking with colleagues in Northern Ireland. When I've engaged with colleagues in the UK Government, I've made absolutely clear that where we are trying to find workable solutions to how we can make governance, administration, democratic oversight and reform of arrangements, I am extremely keen to be doing it on a collegial basis to try and find agreement where we can, where there are administrative blockages, if I can put it that way, that they can be overcome, that I'm acting in good faith to try and deliver on a wish that surely everybody in government should have, that we are operating as best as we can. To give you a concrete example of how it might be possible to improve things relates to the issue of frameworks. It may seem a slightly dry subject, but the framework agreements are the method by which a United Kingdom that has left the European Union can best operate with devolved administrations. This goes back to principles that were agreed in October 2017. The timeline in this is quite important to understand what is going on below the surface. Commitments were made about the way in which Governments could and should work together. Subsequently to that, the UK Government decided to pursue the Internal Markets Act, which in effect drives a coach and horses through the devolution settlement. As a result of that, progress on the frameworks agreement have certainly not been as quick or as far as I would wish, and no doubt for you who would wish to scrutinise the frameworks for yourselves, the detail of which progress has, frankly, not been good enough. That is something that I have discussed in person with Chloe Smith, who is a UK Government Minister in the Cabinet Office, who I know, you might imagine, having spent 16 years at Westminster, that I know a lot of the UK Government ministers and interlocutors. I think that is a good thing, because we agreed to work in act in good faith to try and make progress on the frameworks agreements in ways that have been either too slow or there has not been progress. You asked me specifically about ways in which we can make things better. That is a very concrete way in which things could work better. There is a more general observation I would like to make, which goes across the piece in terms of internal Government relations. It is something that I have asked that we now on, from now on, log, which is the nature in which meetings that involve the UK Government or discussions involving the UK Government and specific matters that are supposed to be progressed between Governments, how that actually operates in practice. It is hard to come to any other conclusion that there is a determined and deliberate approach by the UK Government in relation to the Scottish Government and by extension to the Scottish Parliament of not informing the Scottish Government, informing the Scottish Government late, not involving the Scottish Government in all relevant meetings. When one does take part in meetings, the thing that I have heard most often is noted and apparently when one hears later the issues that were discussed have been fully consulted on. If consulted is simply taking part in teams or Zoom meetings where UK Government ministers say noted, I suspect that that is going to come far short for the Scottish Government and I imagine for this committee as well. We have a profound challenge about how we deal with the UK Government because frankly, not only is the relationship between the UK Government and the devolved Administration suboptimal, but they are actually pursuing policies aimed at undermining and denuding the devolved settlement that was agreed by the people of Scotland, incidentally also the people of Wales and incidentally also the people of Northern Ireland. And no doubt these are questions that you would want to ask any UK Government minister if they deign to turn up. So I look forward to watching such an evident session with interest. Thank you. Clearly you will enjoy joint ministerial committees when you get an invitation to one and it sounds like you've worked out the format. Can I ask you about something you raised there in your introductory remarks about some of the history to this, which is that the very reason this Parliament is in existence. The only reason, but one of the reasons is to ensure that decisions about spending and what we now understand to be devolved areas are made by this place and not by anywhere else. So can I ask you what you make of comments from Scotland office ministers that because they don't like policies in certain devolved areas they might want to bypass that so that the idea that spending decisions in areas that might be considered devolved might be better made by them or other UK ministers and again how the Scottish Government how you can engage with them in a way that makes your point clear. Well I think it's important to understand this challenge both on a political and a practical level let's just take the practical level for a second which is that the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament has the formal responsibility for areas that are devolved so has the oversight mechanisms has the formal structures in place to appropriately manage spending projects plan across the full range of the devolved areas and we have a UK Government that doesn't and so just on a very very practical basis we have local authorities we have the Scottish Government that are making all kinds of plans and strategies on the basis of the needs, the interests, the concerns, the expectations of the communities that we all serve and we have a UK Government Administration Government departments that don't so on what basis are the allocation of resources in devolved spending areas going to be taken at the present time all indications seem to be arbitrary and political and politically motivated and to seek to bypass the devolved settlement and incidentally the priorities that have been set by the Scottish people by electing you in the relative strengths of the political parties in the Parliament and then I move on to the political level of course which is that there is clearly a political motivation in doing all of this it is the attempt to try and to show that the UK Government cares about Scotland by getting itself involved in policy areas that it thinks will curry favour with voters oh look what the UK Government the munificence of the UK Government in spending on a range of things which are actually the responsibility of this Parliament and the elected Scottish Government so those are the two levels which I see as being the most important and people need to be held to account but the UK Government is not being held to account for this because the place where account should be held is in this place by you as opposed to Government ministers representing a Government there is not being elected in this country and most of whos ministers have not been elected in this country either thank you can you write thank you you talked in your opening remarks about a partnership of friends I think that was specifically with regards to the United Kingdom I'm interested to know what you've been doing since you took post partnership of friends that we could have whether that being Europe or the rest of the world well one of the advantages of having an election shortly before a recess means that as a Government minister that a Government minister has more time to be able to use that recess time to in my case bed into the job and there's a golden hour that exists reach out and speak with people so I've been doing that on a number of different levels I've been speaking in the first instance to the consular corps, the diplomatic corps in Scotland so you'll be aware that there are a wide range of countries who have consulates in largely Edinburgh and so I've been colleagues in the Scottish Government have been meeting with the consuls general and on occasion diplomats from London embassies about developments in Scotland but then also specifically in relation to consular questions and we may come on to this but the impact of Brexit is having on their citizens but then on people from here in their country so there's been a very good engagement with the consular corps in general and specifically I've met face to face in person with the consuls general of the United States of America of Germany of France of Japan of Ireland of Austria and the rest on teams calls I've also been engaging with the diplomatic community in London and visits are beginning to take place so just looking back at my diary in recent weeks I've met in person the ambassador of Slovenia his country which I think is comparable in size with Wales it is a very important country because it currently has the presidency of the European Union so I was very pleased to meet the ambassador in person I've met the ambassador of Finland I've met the ambassador of Austria I've met the Indian High Commissioner and spoken via teams of the number of others on Europe I have met or been in communication with amongst others the German representative to the European Union David McAllister, the chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament and MEPs across all of the mainstream political families in the European Parliament you'll be aware there is a Friends of Scotland group in the European Parliament so that is just I say just but that is the outreach that I've been engaged in during recess with the diplomatic community here in London and in Europe further afield you will know that the Scottish Government has representatives in a good number of countries around the world and we're hoping to increase that and been working very closely with them as well great thank you very much what a fantastic few weeks you've had very busy you touched on relationships with our own citizens and yesterday in the rain committee we heard evidence about it from the food and drinks areas and they've requested short-term Covid recovery visas I'm interested to know what work you've been doing to support them and also separately from that but connected I met with some musicians they are looking for improved access to Europe to come to here as well so thank you very much for the question again a subject that we could take up the whole time of the committee today talking simply about the scale of the challenge that we're facing in the areas that you're describing if you do no shopping you might be living under the impression that things are normal but if you actually do your own shopping and see what is going on in smaller and larger shops you're aware that there is a problem and it is an increasing problem sadly if you work in any coastal communities so those that have an offshore fishery sector or onshore processing sector the impact of Brexit there is disastrous and we're now at a stage of those who were the primary campaigners for the quotes see if opportunity are now regretting in terms of what has happened since if you are working in the agricultural sector and you've not been able to conduct your harvest because you don't have the staff to harvest, imagine you've worked all year and what you've worked so hard to nurture and grow literally crops because you can't pick the fruit or harvest the crops that you've planted these are the realities of Scotland in Brexit Britain and across the Scottish Government whether it's colleagues working directly in the agriculture and fish sector or in my area of responsibility the impact on the culture sector has been mentioned well on the one hand we should be glad and we should put on record our appreciation to everybody in the cultural communities worked so hard to try and make sure as we emerge from Covid that we can see the bounce back in the culture and arts sector which is so important to all of us and festivals have begun to run but you could take evidence from anybody working in the cultural community and they would be able to explain to you in technicolour the impact that Brexit has had on people being able to come here and people from here trying to go somewhere else to perform I know about this because I've held a number of sector round table so I've actually spoken to the people who are involved in this directly and as a single example Spain is a country that is hugely important for the Scottish cultural community Scottish music is exceptionally popular in Spain there are a great number of festivals which would wish to host Scottish performers and there's an established timetable in normal circumstances of Scottish performers being able to perform in Spain now, because the UK is outside the European Union and I stress the UK Government refused an agreement with the rest of the European Union that it would have allowed visa free travel for cultural performance that performers from Scotland are being hit with prohibitive costs I'm looking here at Spain an example of costs in excess of £557 so it's deterring performers in general but it's also deterring performers specifically in ways that it will take a while for us to fully understand the impact that this is having on younger and emerging performers so performers who might not earn so much performers who might not have such big a following but for whom performing internationally is an important way of getting experience and growing their profile and hopefully being the success stories that they are now and things are so bad that younger performers are literally not going on tour and if they're not going on tour they're not developing their skills they're not earning the money they're not developing their following and this will have an impact on the Scottish arts and cultural community in ways that we will only learn about in the fullness of time we have alternatives we have been pressing the UK Government to do this we've seen legal advice from the Incorporated Society of Musicians that makes abundantly clear that a visa waiver agreement with the European Union would not require an reopening of the TCA which is why the UK Government is not pursuing this it would allow the UK to continue to control at its borders and that such an agreement would be legally binding UK Government had the choice of agreeing to such an arrangement but it didn't and so the impact in the cultural scene is really really appalling and I am working very closely with them and they are the best people to explain to you the impact of all of this and there is an example where I have to say the co-location of culture, external affairs and culture in the current circumstances is extremely apposite because it means for example in the interactions that we are able to have as the Scottish Government with other countries on the level allows us to highlight these challenges because unfortunately what is happening for Scottish performers is also happening to performers on the continent who are not coming here to the loss of audiences here who would love to because we are after all a European country and that is not the only reason why we would like to see performers from the rest of Europe and the cultural community that we are unfortunately seeing less and less people come here to perform. Ms Boyack, do you want to join in this area? Thanks very much, convener and welcome to the Cabinet Secretary. I want to pick up the early comments you made in your opening remarks and go back to them which actually take you back as you said to the whole purpose of devolution decision making and accountability in Scotland as part of the UK and you gave a pretty fulsome critique of how things are working at the moment so I'd be very interested in because this is our first chance to talk to you and we're thinking about the next five years there are kind of three areas it feels to me there's ministerial level with joint ministerial relationships there's our parliamentary accountability there's relationship between different parts of the civil service across the UK and then there's the level of local authorities and the description you give is not an overly positive one of the current structures and relationships so what would be your short term suggestions for how we begin to reset those relationships given that we're at a critical moment in terms of when we look at your the issue of common frameworks and think about how we deliver parliamentary accountability on that raft of different frameworks what are the changes you think need to be made because I suspect there's a reasonable agreement round the table that noted is not a very fulsome way of engaging us in knowing what's being discussed and what the discussions are at the most senior levels I think that would help us in terms of thinking about our questions and who we want to have in terms of UK ministers to have a more fulsome discussion on this going forward to set our work for the next five years Thank you very much for the question having that positive approach to how we can try and make things better is the correct starting point and that is my starting point with all of this as you might imagine that when arrives as a new cabinet secretary and there's a mountain of papers and a record on this and both of my colleagues sitting next to me are people who have long experiences and I might ask them to come in at the end of my contribution to give you some insight into the formal workings of things and the scale of the challenge that we have can changes be made let me go back into it firstly I have taken part in meetings where it is clear because the people who were taking part in the meetings were prepared to listen and were prepared to co-operate as it should be should it not and I think in fairness I do want to share the fact that there are circumstances and it shows that it is possible to discuss areas of common concern so I was asked in the question before about engagement and I haven't had engagement on this level on at least two significant areas one there are coordinating committees with the UK Government that have been dealing with EU exit and I've taken part in meetings of that and more recently there have been coordinating committees involving the UK Government on the issue of Afghanistan and in both of those meetings I was joined by colleagues from Wales and Northern Ireland and from a number of different UK Government departments and at some of those meetings I would describe as being constructive, business-like and engaged so for example on Afghanistan I was sharing what I think is should be a priority with the arriving refugees that we should be working in a joined up way to make sure that those people who have a connection with places or organisations because they were translators or they worked with military units or they have an educational connection with different parts of the UK that Afghan refugees should be able to go to a part of the UK that they have a connection with so he's eminently sensible to me that was a point that I was raising in the committee and a number of people were saying absolutely this is something that we need to look at and you will appreciate that this would be something partially dealt with by the Scottish Government but the clearing would be dealt with by the Home Office and the Ministry of Defence I have to say that I thought that the impression I got from colleagues in the Home Office colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and in the Cabinet Office was positive so I take that at face value I hope it can be proceeded with similarly on European Union exit related issues and a number of subjects where my contribution I don't want to embarrass UK Government ministers who actually said on the record that they agreed with me but it was nice to hear that there could be contributions that would be made in good faith that would be welcomed by UK Government ministers so let me start there on that point beyond that however in the conversations when one's actually dealing with the machinery of government how do we formally work together on intergovernmental relations it's when one gets to that point that it's clear that there is a structural problem so it's not simply about the individual goodwill or sense of colleagues who can hear a sensible suggestion and go that's a sensible suggestion why don't we do it but it's when one actually is involved in discussions about structure or policy and things that then need to be signed off and agreed I have little doubt that where there are things that are not viewed as being partisan there is good opportunity for informal working and I will continue in all circumstances to try and work like that but on the formal level that we need to know what we are dealing with here we are dealing with a UK Government that has a policy about its interaction with devolved administrations and I stress again that this is not simply an issue of relevance for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government our views are shared by the Welsh Government of a different political hue and where one speaks with colleagues in Northern Ireland you hear much the same thing and we are internally trying as best as we can to understand where the blockages and frameworks crystalises the challenge that we have with this we have the pre-Brexit commitment to a way of working that respects the devolution settlement in principle and let's work out frameworks on the basis of that principle incidentally commitments given amongst other places by Government ministers on the floor of the House of Lords and then we have the practice what the impact of the internal market act does and as committee members will be aware there has been an internal debate within the UK Government about its form of interaction with devolved administration the term muscular unionism is one that has been used by amongst others the Welsh First Minister and in the sort of internal thinking of the UK Government you have these contradictory positions and the truth is they haven't yet worked out how they can square the circle haven't yet worked out are they going to pursue purely a muscular unionist position or are they going to deliver on their commitment on frameworks this is a very live issue because I had a positive meeting in terms of the tone of the conversation with Chloe Smith about where we were with frameworks and there has been some back and forward since then and where we get to is going to be extremely instructive as to where the UK Government is with things and on reaching that stage can I turn to colleagues who have been working on this to give you just a bit of colour and insight into the more technical aspects of this Donald? Thanks cabinet secretary I don't have a great deal to add to what the cabinet secretary has said you asked about official level relationships well clearly officials working in the civil service in different parts of the UK have a shared interest in good governance so officials talk to each other they communicate with each other but there's no doubt that we have a different set of ministerial mandates that's the reality of the situation now I think we're long used to that being the case but in the post-eu referendum period I think it is reasonable to conclude that those relationships have it's been more difficult given the differing ministerial mandates so particularly around the UK internal market act it is very clear that the positions of the UK Government and the Scottish Government are very very different and I think that informs the approach to engagement between officials to work in both administrations to do our best to to manage our way through the differing ministerial mandate but there comes a point where you hit the reality of that and there isn't any scope for further negotiation or development at an official level it has to be sorted out at a political level and I think that's simply the reality of the situation at the moment I think that the cabinet secretary's remarks about the common frameworks programme I think that we have seen a lot of good progress over the I think three years that the programme has been under way I think that what we're seeing now for two points I would make there first of all that that work was predicated on an agreed set of principles about what frameworks would do so baked in to the project was respect for devolution that there was a set of legitimate interests on the part of the UK Government in devolved areas and legitimate interest in the devolved Governments in reserved areas where you see the intersects between reserved and devolved responsibilities so that work got off to a good start because of that recognition at the outset I think that what we've reached now is that in three separate areas we need to see progress when we sit at the heart of the effect of the UK internal market act in terms of an exclusions process for frameworks our sense as in the Scottish Government is that there needs to be a degree of automaticity to that process if we are going to see frameworks do the job that they were originally conceived to do otherwise we will be in a situation where irrespective of what is agreed in a frameworks area the UK internal market act provisions can cut across that agreement and the only thing that can be done to address that is for a decision made by a UK Government secretary of state that cuts across the principles that were agreed in framework at the outset so that is an area where progress is needed if we are going to get on to the second part of your question which is around the role that the committee has in scrutinising frameworks our sense is that progress is needed on these three cross-cutting issues before scrutiny can be done on a meaningful basis but we recognise the pressure in terms of timings and workloads and scheduling of business for committees so I think that the cabinet secretary has also said that we are hopeful that progress can be made over the next few weeks on these outstanding issues but it will very much depend on the UK Government being able to reach a collective decision and I think it remains to be seen whether that will be possible or not Those two answers were very helpful and that helps us thinking about accountability and further scrutiny for us to work on Can I just go back to my first question to the cabinet secretary again about your priorities of what you would change in the short term because you are clearly of the view that the system is not working as intended at the moment and that there have been big changes as a result of Brexit but what would be your short term change I know that you want a different constitutional settlement long run but to make things work now so that you can get the job done and the other devolved Governments can get the job done what would be your top priority I notice that the Welsh Government repubished their suggestions on how things need to change what would be your short term changes that you think would be of assistance because I think would be helpful for us If I was being really concrete about it I would wish that this framework process which has been going on and on and on is completed, agreed and you can get on with your work of scrutinising it and the frameworks are operating in such a way that then preclude the internal market act from its impact and devolved areas that that would be a pretty good short term solution and it would then free you up to actually scrutinise the workings of said frameworks that would be a good thing I'm not entirely sure we may have different perceptions of how short short term is but you know within this parliamentary term it is the Government's intention that the people of Scotland should be able to determine future governance of this country and that is in most consideration in terms of short term, medium term and long term that is something that is something that we intend to take forward in this parliamentary term and that allows us to think completely differently about the interrelationship of Government and governance on these islands and let me stress that is an important dimension to the next stage in Scotland's democratic journey is our interrelationship with the rest of the United Kingdom which will still remain the primary relationships that we have and so I'm pleased that obviously during Covid restrictions my ability to take part in face-to-face meetings has been as for all of you and for the rest of society has been very restricted but I'm taking part in my first sort of intergovernmental face-to-face event this weekend when I meet members of the UK Government the Welsh and Northern Irish Executive the Welsh Government and the Northern Irish Executive and the Government of the Irish Republic at the British Irish Association and I think it behoves us all to work out how given the suboptimal way in which things are currently operating within the devolved settlement can be working better on the basis of Scotland being a sovereign state like the Irish Republic and that is not all plain sailing as we have been able to observe through Brexit but it is something that I'm very cognisant of and I want to see good formal and informal relations between the nations of these islands but I of the view that we will be in the best possible position to pursue our interests and our shared interests by being a sovereign equal in our case member state of the European Union which we would then be together with the Irish Republic but also with new machinery and we would need to think about how we can make that work optimally and for me this is something that we are wanting to do once we emerge from the Covid phase that we are in now that is very high up on my working list and is after all the manifesto that I was elected on and the majority of members in this Parliament were elected on to deliver within this parliamentary term Thank you, forgive me cabinet secretary can I just confirm, is that a British Irish council meeting? No, association Association, thank you very much Less known perhaps Now the British Irish council of course is really important as well and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that its secretariat is headquartered in Scotland in this very city and so that is an example of machinery that was obviously agreed as part of the Good Friday agreement and I think there well we hope obviously that the situation in Northern Ireland does not deteriorate and I very much hope that the interrelationship between Governments on these islands can be improved as well but the British Irish Association is another format that brings together Government representatives across the islands Thank you for clarifying that for me Can I invite Donald Cameron? Thank you, the other Donald Cameron Yes, indeed Welcome to the cabinet secretary and to your officials to the committee I'd just like to start with an observation about common frameworks and I think there was a sense that your answers that common frameworks we can't really get on with scrutinising them until certain issues have been resolved and I think it is worth saying that the health and sport committee on which I sat in the last Parliament did scrutinise two common frameworks and heard from Scottish Government heard from stakeholders and officials so it's not a novel process albeit it is one that I think is in our way a bit on so just to put that on the record I'd like to pursue the issue of intergovernmental relations because I think as you've made clear cabinet secretary it does feel that relations are at a pretty low ebb although one of the things that's emerged today I think is that there are constructive contacts between at a ministerial level and at an official level just to come to something that Mr Cameron said that there does come a point where policy between UK Government and Scottish Government just is diametrically opposed so it ends and it's your policy to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom it's your policy to oppose Brexit and I suppose what I'm getting at is when that happens how do we break that impasse so thank you for your first observation which I think is very helpful I think wherever one can scrutinise and it is possible to scrutinise things which are not fully resolved I would just it's not unhelpful for the Government to try and make significant progress with measures like this before bringing it to parliaments and I'm sure you appreciate all of that but then with the best of intentions around things on the inter-governmental relationships there are areas where it is possible to deliver further progress so I raise the issue of frameworks because that would be a good thing to make progress on would it not? Notwithstanding the fact that there are genuine and legitimate differences between the Government elected in Scotland and the Government elected elsewhere in the United Kingdom and so to share a couple of things firstly the fairer dispute resolution process which is something that could for the first time involve the principle that no Government can be both party to and arbiter of a dispute I think that would be a good thing that there should be an independent secretaria drawn from the four Governments which would oversee machinery and disciplinary and dispute resolution processes I think that would be a good thing there are emerging proposals from the Treasury which could make four nation discussions more equitable there is however an outstanding issue about whether the Treasury which of course would be unlikely in normal circumstances to relinquish control over the oversight of financial disputes but we'd need to do so because obviously it is a party to much of this as part of the UK Government and then on the fourth area are revised proposals which would be an improvement on current processes and you might want to understand more about would be on more transparent arrangements for formal inter-governmental meetings with shared responsibility for agenda setting and chairing meetings so not just having a sort of faxed here's what we're talking about here's when it's happening here's who's taking part and we're deciding all of that which again is not a normal way of doing business so in answering your question please I would like to stress that I think there are areas where we can make progress there are areas where I think there could be things that would be agreed if there was goodwill on all sides and I acknowledge that there does come a point of course there comes a point when profound series of seriously different views on the part of the Scottish Government and the UK Government are are irresolvable but from our perspective all of us on the committee and in this Parliament and in the Government we serve on the basis of a devolved settlement that was voted for by the people of this country and it behoves us I think to protect and maintain and support the governance of this Government on the basis that that is what the people agree to and yes we will no doubt have differences about what happens next because in 2014 of course we were invited to say no thanks and remain in the United Kingdom that was part of the European Union and the material circumstances of that choice have subsequently changed and we will debate that in full but if I can maybe just again stress I think there are areas where we can make progress and I genuinely hope that we can but it will take either a shift in mindset or policy to change that Thank you for that answer I've got a question on external affairs which you've touched on in terms of the outreach you were doing Now external affairs under the devolution settlement is reserved to the UK Government but I think we've all accepted over the last 20 years that Scotland does have an international presence and a need to promote itself Can I ask though how does the Scottish Government work alongside the UK Government in terms of external affairs and if I could illustrate that with an example under the recent co-operation agreement with the Scottish Green Party one of the proposals is to open new international offices in Copenhagen and Warsaw so in that example how does the Scottish Government work with an existing UK diplomatic operation if I could put it like that in those countries to enable that to happen Okay, so first I'm very mindful of the time and I'm sure there are committee members who are keen that we can also get on to I don't know maybe some questions on culture as well but I'll just answer very quickly in these two concrete cases both of the proposed Scottish Government hubs would be quotes on platform on an on platform basis within the UK embassy and that very obviously because proximity makes co-ordination with colleagues working as part of the UK embassy very direct I think there are also advantages of having it following a different model incidentally but very specifically in that case and specific to your question Mr Cameron that's a concrete I could talk greater length about how we can coordinate and we do and I want to do that so two way street incidentally it would be great to hear what the UK Government is doing in a whole series of circumstances which impact on us on you, on this committee's work and unfortunately we don't hear any of that so it would be good if that were to happen as well Okay, thank you Thank you, I think as you said cabinet secretary we're now moving on to the culture remit of the committee and I can invite Ms Weber to open questions Thank you convener and welcome to the meeting cabinet secretary first time we've met in person before that's only been virtual as you know we both represent this fine capital city as well and the importance Edinburgh has internationally and more locally in terms of the economic growth of our country is really important but do you also know that our world heritage status is under threat certainly if you give the recently announced that there's been a number of decisions that have been taken by the administration the S&P administration in the city that is making direct threats to that status and those decisions were taken without consultation with historic environment Scotland Edinburgh world heritage and any proper local engagement you yourself spoke I'll wrote rather locally in the evening news so I was wondering given that culture importance what can you do both as the cabinet secretary and as the MSP responsible for Edinburgh central what can you do to help preserve that status well thank you very much in my precisely two and a half minutes to answer your question so you're absolutely right Mr Robertson I'm not sure where the time limit has come from we're happy to continue but if you were under the impression you're now heading out and need to go that's fine but as far as the committee are concerned we thought it would be a 90 minute session that's great I can answer your question a greater length than this will be a relief no doubt firstly on the issue of economic growth I want to come back to that in a second but specifically in relation to Edinburgh and UNESCO status as you'll appreciate I'm the member of the Scottish Parliament for Edinburgh central so I have the good fortune to represent both the old town and the new town and the UNESCO site so it's extremely important to me as I know it's important very important to Edinburgh so as you would imagine I have had lots of meetings about issues relating to Edinburgh central across a wide range of specifics last week I met amongst others with the Coburn Association who have a long long track record of promoting and supporting the historic nature of Edinburgh and those are principles which I support and lie very close to my heart I should declare it's not part of my CV but I used to be a tour guide in the role mile so I know both the role mile and the new town rather well and it lies very close to my heart on the specific issue of refuse collection I have had much to say about it and thank you very much for the plug in that evening news column this week so I rather than regurgitate that I would draw members' attention to that on UNESCO it raises an interesting thought for me of course because Scotland is not represented at UNESCO and for those who are unaware it's the cultural organisation of the United Nations which does have representation from the Government of Quebec which does have representation of the Government of Flanders does have representation of the Government of Wallonia and I don't know maybe it's worth thinking about our relationship with the United Nations culture organisation which does have an influence on not just Edinburgh because there are other sites of worldwide heritage in Scotland that are relevant and UNESCO is the key interlocutor there so yes I agree that we want to do everything that we can to support, promote and protect the extremely important and special nature of the old and new town in relation to the UNESCO World Heritage Site and I would encourage everybody who's involved in the decision making around this to work out the options that exist and I know for example that the community council in Newtown and Broughton has been making some suggestions on the last week I'm almost 100% sure that the convener of the committee did not expect the Newtown and Broughton community council to come up as an item for discussion at this morning's evidence session but let me segue into economic growth if I may and perhaps you would wish me to answer this question on the basis of a further question that people may have but one of the things that excites me most in terms of economic growth and this relates to the culture area of the portfolio directly and not necessarily my MSP responsibility for Edinburgh central is in relation to screen production television and film and it will not have you will have you will not have failed to notice that there's a big change in relation to screen and broadcasting in Scotland if you think back five or six years even we were lamenting the fact that we didn't have a single studio of significant size in Scotland that we had market failure effectively in screen production terms and how all of that has changed and in Edinburgh's case but I'll widen out my observations to the rest of the country we have for the first time a significantly sized studio and one can add to that the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow, we can add to that Pacific Key where we I think enjoyed success during the recess and ensuring that the BBC did not farm that out and have managed from outside Scotland delighted that we have an additional studio that will continue to be managed from Scotland and as we know from productions like Outlander we have facilities in Cumbernauld and now with Good Omens 2 in West Lothian so we've gone from a position in screen production which is worth hundreds of millions of pounds to the Scottish economy including Edinburgh that we are at a point I think that we could not have imagined a few short years ago and I am extremely extremely focused as Cabinet Secretary for Culture in making this success that it can be and I would like to invite the committee I hope you share my enthusiasm and my and my encouragement for supporting this growing and emerging part of the Scottish economy because the potential that it has I think is groundbreaking I've had in terms of my lists of people I've been speaking to during recess I've been asked about external affairs I've been speaking to amongst others the director general of the BBC Tim Davie, chief executive of channel 4 Alex Mann Head of Screen Scotland Head of Creative Scotland and then others who are involved in the sector about where we are with this and it is genuinely exciting I wasn't just exciting to go to the film studios and see the shooting of the rig with Martin Compton and Ian Glenn and Emily Hampshire and others but it was and I don't know how many if you're watching television and I will give an unashamed plug for the BBC this week who broadcast on Sunday night episode 1 of Vigil and episode 2 was on Monday again starring Martin Compton I don't think everything produced in Scotland as Martin Compton and although he is very, very good but we have Good Omens starting series 2 with Michael Sheen and David Tennant and with the the beginnings of the streaming services so Amazon, Netflix and others we now have, we have the prospect of literally permanent screen production in Scotland in a way that we didn't have before and when I was at Bath Road in Leith speaking to the young trainees they were lined up and their number 1 question for me is can I continue to do this i.e. Can I continue to work in the film in the making of TV series and cinema production in Scotland and I was able to say to them I am the first Cabinet Secretary in Scotland with responsibility for this area who can with almost 100% certainty guarantee that people going into screen production will be able to have a full life career in that sector in Scotland it was not possible before and it is possible now and we have a huge prize to gain in terms of jobs, in terms of career development in terms of skill, in terms of investment and so we need to make sure that young people who would like to work in TV and film production and so on get all of the skills that they can get I don't know if you saw during recess there was an extremely popular initiative that the director of Good Omens 2 who is Scottish based on Twitter he put out a list of all of the traineeship posts that were being offered in Good Omens 2 and it was massively oversubscribed as you might imagine and what is so encouraging about this is understanding what that actually means and we can learn there from the likes of Outlander which I think is on its sixth series I'm not on a ship aficionado but I know it's a lot of series but the point about that is that the content at the start of the production series, series 1, series 2 have through the further series they have got more experience they have become more senior so again we are closing a market failure in the Scottish economy of actually having people trained people who have the skills and then instead of exporting them to work at Pinewood or in Prague or New York or LA they can actually do this here and I'm not going to hide the light under a bushel but the most exciting things I think in the culture in the whole cultural area in Scotland and I think we should be doing absolutely everything that we can to make sure that we help it be the success that I think it can be and so that's a long and unexpected answer perhaps to your question about Edinburgh's UNESCO status but you started off and it was predicated on economic growth and I look forward to going from strength to strength Thank you cabinet secretary you probably have declared an interest then given that I was a board member of marketing Edinburgh when we were seeking to get the studio in the city going on from that our first introductory meeting we did also speak about the role of the gaming community in terms of that and I don't mean pheasants I mean I mean you know the role of Dundee you did get it right and that's obviously you've spoken at length about the screen but we were debating where that fitted in in terms of that development and that support if that was part of it so I've definitely hit on a point in my evidence session which I suspect I will need to write back to the convener specifically about the gaming sector if I can speak more generally about it's not gaming in the sense of people betting but obviously we have a lottery locus with Scotland and Edinburgh and Edinburgh central being the headquarters of the postcode lottery and that does impact significantly on the culture and charity sector so again perhaps come round and about this in a securities route but it is relevant and it is relevant to your considerations and mine both as a minister and as an MSP which is that this is a charitable organisation which puts funds that I was previously unaware because I'm not a gambler and I don't buy tickets for the lottery I don't know whether you're all experts and I'm not but what I do know is that the numbers are extremely significant and what I also know is that they're very forward leaning at working with charities and especially in the cultural sector and I'm talking about on a very grassroots level and not just the larger although they are very supportive of larger cultural organisations as well and I think there are governance areas and this is there are areas of governance which relate to devolved legislation governance areas that relate to reserved legislation and I would invite you to maybe look a little bit closer at that to see whether there is a relevance for the committee. I know that there are unresolved governance related issues which I think for this specific Edinburgh Scottish based lottery are of great importance for them to be able to grow as they have grown and continue to support charities and cultural organisations so that's maybe something that you might want to have a look at. Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. Just a little bit of context around the games industry obviously a lot of the skillset involved in games development and all of the series are similar to the screen industry. Well it's very relevant because obviously we're talking about funding that comes from the lotteries of these things. Forgive me, convener. As my wife would confirm my hearing is not always on point I might be accused of it being selective. I heard gaming in the sense of putting on a bet or buying a lottery ticket. Forgive me. I'm not a great gamer in the sense of Grand Theft Auto and so on. Forgive me, I was answering the question on the basis of gaming financially as opposed to the online version. The point going on to that for a second and mentioning Grand Theft Auto is I think most people in Scotland are unaware of how groundbreaking game development in Scotland has been and it's not just Grand Theft Auto but if people don't know how big and groundbreaking Grand Theft Auto is they should go off and have a look. It might not be all of our thing but it is a thing for a lot of people around the world and we have a great tradition in this especially in Dundee but elsewhere too and we have also in parallel some very interesting developments in relation to the tech sector in Scotland and these things are related because we have a huge opportunity but there's also a challenge in this of are we helping to give enough younger people especially the skills and the training and the expertise to be able to walk into these emerging sectors and for us to make sure that the maximum number of people here are able to take up those jobs and I think that's an open question. There are some countries for whom computer science and such light is absolutely up there as a priority. Good news it is for the Scottish Government too and we need to make sure that we match those organisations that have a really big tech locus and as we know again going back to Edinburgh where there's the aspiration to become the data hub of the whole of Europe and there's a huge AI sector developing in Edinburgh too that should be hugely encouraging for a young generation of people for whom computing is interesting, gaming is interesting, tech is interesting, AI is interesting and while some of that falls within obviously the education sphere of work that the Scottish Government does or economic development it also does fall in part in culture as well and I think we need to understand that much of this is extremely relevant and so it's also on my long list of things that are relevant for me and colleagues. Thank you cabinet secretary it is an area that the committee has discussed in private because it's an industry that has fallen between certain areas because it's not fully tech, it's not fully culture it's not these areas and just for your own information we've been talking about this in the context of the wellbeing society and how people consume and spend their time so obviously the big comic con events, the gaming competitions all these things you know where do they fit in the culture portfolio maybe in the next one but it does bring me neatly on to I think more localized questions but not from Edinburgh from Dr Allan initially, thanks Thank you very much, I'm not sure that they'll be very localized but it's a no doubt a subject you've heard me on about before you've talked with great enthusiasm quite rightly there about the production if you like of culture but I was interested to hear your views about the consumption of culture in the sense of simply enjoying it and people's access to culture and particularly I'm interested in a subject I've raised before which is the body of Scottish literature which exists out there but which academics and others point out that compared to most other European countries people seem to have an abnormally low opportunity in Scotland getting better but comparatively little opportunity to get immersed in that, books old and new produced in Scotland so I appreciate you're not the education minister but it would be interesting to hear your views about the promotion of Scottish literature So culture access this is a subject again which you could probably have a session all of its own too there are a number of obvious areas around culture which should be high on our priority list so take for example festivals in just for sake of our own because we're sitting in it in Edinburgh and if we were to look at the efforts that the likes of the Edinburgh festival fringe or certain venues have taken to try and make sure that particularly younger people from deprived backgrounds in more socially challenged parts of the city can feel that festivals and cultural life is something that includes them and their part of Edinburgh and isn't just something that happens over there and there's a long track record of it going back to the Craig Miller festival and so on to make sure that that happens that is hugely important to me and it's a subject that I have discussed with people who have been running festivals in Edinburgh and in fairness to them I know is a big priority for them and I think anything that we can do to try and make sure that we can that we can foster better cultural access on that on that level and make sure that it's a year round experience and not just oh the festivals are in August let's arrange for buses for kids from you know this primary school to go to the performance of that particular event good though that might be we have to make sure that the culture or cultural opportunity is an all year round experience but it is also mainstream to learning now the observation about Scottish literature is I don't know quite where to start with this I mean imagine living in a country where it would be abnormal to learn about the literature of your own country it seems preposterous that that would be the case anywhere but more specifically it would seem absurd that that would be the case in this country and now things are changing I think I'm right in saying that there was a previous schools minister who had particularly strong views about this and made efforts to try and ensure that Scottish literature was at least one piece of Scottish literature was taught as part of I think it was the higher programme sorry I'm being elliptical I'm looking directly at for those who are reading the record and not seeing our proceedings I'm looking directly at Dr Allen who was of course that schools minister but you know we have to do better than that I mean I would say incidentally we have to do better in teaching our own history and that should go without saying so cultural access a number of points about it so yes I'm committed to it access in terms of making sure that everybody has access to it the gamut goes much further than that and we need to help introduce everybody to the amazing culture that we have on our doorstep one person's idea of what culture is is not shared by everybody and we have to realise that for some people I mean the question was brought up about online games you know there's a cultural dimension to that and I'm not going to be snooty about that and similarly we are so lucky to have an offering in this country from the traditional high arts to the alternative and in Scottish cultural terms the traditional sector and the full gamut and I just think that everybody should have an introduction to that everybody should be able to have an appreciation of it and they can then choose on the basis of that what it is that they have a personal interest in on the basis of being exposed of but the idea that we would be a country that doesn't teach our own literature or has a lack of awareness of our own history is one that should should be consigned to the history books and if I can just add a supplemental thought to all of this given what is going on at the present time and we're debating in this parliament this afternoon on Afghanistan I think it's really important that people who come to this country have the opportunity to learn about the culture and the history and the society that they will now share and that is a priority for me and it's a priority for the organisations that work in this field so the Scottish Refugee Council the variety of NGO and Afghan Scots community organisations who want to make sure that that is also the case so I think we need to be imaginative about how we do this in schools how we do this with our cultural organisations but also how we help people who come to these shores and as we know become hyfinated Scots if they want to be as soon as they want to be but everybody should have access to culture I think that was really interesting conversation there I'd like to shift us out of the big urban areas though for culture I'd like to know your thoughts on more rural areas the smaller museums the way that people access culture the fact that we're talking about staycations so there's a much higher percentage of people coming out to rural Scotland and also if you could touch a wee bit as well on your thoughts about Gaelic and its importance to Scottish culture thank you thank you very much we could spend a whole session talking about so let's deal with the tangible again I should for those who are unaware I represented a rural constituency for 16 years so the issues that you raise are not foreign to me but also the successes in that part of the world I'm talking about Murray are also at the forefront of my thoughts about but we're not talking about culture and culture offering only in cities and nothing in rural areas far from it is a strong tradition amongst our artistic community and cultural organisations that there's a touring element to what they do so those who have long enough memory will remember the cheviot and the stag and the black black oil and how the fact that that was a cultural production that literally travelled around all of the villages in towns of Scotland including my constituency was in its way it was maybe groundbreaking in showing that there is a hunger in throughout the country for cultural offering and the great news is you know Scottish I mean I could go on but Scottish opera Scottish Chamber Orchestra a whole right across the spectrum or the other end the more alternative Noiriki who normally perform in Edinburgh but who have performed in I've seen perform in Elgin but perform in other parts of the country too and I think that's I think that needs to be supported in the good news part of the Scottish Government's first 100 days in office delivering on the touring fund not to be confused with the UK Government's anemic replacement fund for the Erasmus plus programme touring in the sense of travelling around the country as opposed to the esteemed scientist touring so that's the first point on touring so doing about making sure that cultural organisations and individual performers are able to access funds to tour around Scotland museums absolutely galleries absolutely what are we doing to make sure that our our collections are lending to different parts of the country whether it's works of art whether it's historic items need to be supported staycations well I mean great for bouncing back for Covid but also great for people getting out of cities and going to different parts of Scotland it's been so nice to see people who in other circumstances almost certainly would not have been or gone to where they have gone on one of these staycations and learning about that part of the country and learning about what they have to offer and I mean I know that communities right around the country are doing their best to make sure that that sort of cultural offering and experience might have and not just going somewhere and staying and I don't know paddle boarding is what they do so from that on to Gallic so I declare an interest I'm not a Gallic speaker but I have the good fortune to have a second language and I know that having a second language whichever it is is absolutely transformational for people it opens another world and so I'm a huge supporter of people being able to learn other languages Gallic is a historic language of this country we don't have enough time for that today but our relationship with the language leaves so much to be desired in the past and we are dealing with the results of that that have led to the number of people speaking that language is a first language reducing pretty much to an all-time low good news is as we know the number of people going to Gallic medium schools is going up considerably they are amongst the most popular schools in the country I can attest to this in Edinburgh where parents, non-Gallic speaking families maybe even sometimes non-English first language speaking families very keen for kids to go in because of the educational benefits of being able to speak another language but also the cultural inheritance that you have with being able to speak one of the so on that level I'm a massive supporter of the language but secondly in terms of the cultural offering there is a role to play in this whether it's education not my responsibility but I know my colleagues responsible for education are very supportive of it in my area in terms of broadcasting this is very important as well and there is much more that can be done about it it is very encouraging that the number of people for example who are regular watchers of BBC Alipa are non-Gallic speakers it is a gateway broadcaster if you want to call it that for people who's first interest might be watching football or something else but are able to watch and enjoy the commentary in the Gallic language and it might help foster an interest in it I hope that answers your question I think there's so much that we can do with it and incidentally I mean just joining it together with my external affairs responsibility I don't know if it's struck members of this committee but the number of people who are learning Gallic who are not even from Scotland is remarkable and again committee may not be aware of this but one of Scotland's leading newsreaders in the Gallic language is himself not from Scotland is German another Argyllin and Bute connection so we need to understand Gallic is not just a historic language of Scotland which is something that we should learn and we should enjoy but it's also something of huge interest to people elsewhere and that's a thoroughly good thing Thank you very much cabinet secretary I think we've exhausted questions that's been quite in a collecting oh sorry a quick question because we've recovered screened questions it would be really good to have that discussion but it's just about live performances venues and we've lost a lot of incredible talent because of the impact of the pandemic so just a couple of words about forward planning we've got the 75th Edinburgh international festivals next year and it's a huge economic issue for not just Edinburgh but the wider economy and just a bit from you about thinking about resilience and recovery for the live performance sector thinking about what more the Scottish Government can do not just now but upcoming to make sure that it's both the people in the sector but also the venues are supported it must be incredibly difficult for them to plan ahead given the uncertainty and the difficulties of the last year I can't do the question justice in the time that we've got save to say I am absolutely seized of this at the moment because of and not just because of Covid but we have great opportunities to showcase our cultural offering and next year obviously the 75th anniversary of the Edinburgh international festival founded by an exiled Austrian Jew Rudolph Bing I was discussing this with the Austrian ambassador yesterday to try and make sure that we can maintain the connection with the country of his birth in relation to the Edinburgh festival so not just on that level but how do we help and support and work with our cultural organisations and critically our venues to make sure that they are in the best possible position to play part in that recovery and as Boyot will be aware that there have been announcements made in terms of certain venues take for example the Kings Theatre in Edinburgh where a significant funding announcement was made by the Scottish Government during recess we are committed to supporting the cultural sector and venues in bouncing back the frequency of discussions with people in the sector is at an extremely high tempo we are very well informed about the needs the interests, the concerns, the expectations of people in the cultural sector we want to be able to match their ambitions as part of the recovery of the arts and culture sector and if it's not obvious to members looking at the stats we will confirm that the arts and culture sector are amongst the worst hit in the Scottish economy in terms of the impact of lockdown and it behoves us to do absolutely everything that we possibly can we have constraints of course we do but we should be doing as much as we possibly can to work with our colleagues in the sector and we are doing that there is as we all know a global pandemic and we are doing our level best to make sure that we do not need to go back into circumstance where restrictions are applied and that's why I'm happy to report to the committee that in meeting that took place with different sectors yesterday afternoon that I took part with the Deputy First Minister amongst the first speakers that took part in that were leading members of the cultural community and people who manage venues and they are extremely bought into the approach that we are trying to take to do everything that we possibly can to make sure that we don't need to go backwards into restrictions and by working together we can increase the chances of us being able to recover from Covid and working in partnership to see the cultural sector not just recover but thrive and I leave you with a last thought going forward one of the things I'm very interested in personally is Scotland's cultural offering internationally which most countries pursue in a cultural diplomacy framework and that's something that I will be developing my thoughts on during this parliamentary term and I'll be happy to come back to the committee to speak about because I think we have a tremendous offering not just domestically but internationally and I think we want to do everything to support that in the years ahead as well Thank you very much Thank you Cabinet Secretary and as I said it was a broad range of topics with two tourings, two gaming industries and two Donald Cameron's and still managed to get there to you and your officials for your attendance this morning and we will now move into private session